Subutex not working

[RSC69]

I was prescribed suboxone 1 week ago and had to change to Subutex because I had a reaction to the combo in suboxone.  I have yet to feel good on Subutex.  I get up in the a.m. feeling like I am in withdrawl.  I take the Subutex and feel o.k. for a couple of hours but then start burning up, feeling dizzy, muscle pain ect.... I feel as if I am in withdrawl again.  When I say I feel o.k. for a couple of hours I still feel foggy, my mind is not clear...I have trouble recalling info to answer questions.  Why is this not working for me.  Others on it seem to have immediate success...
Please help, any info. would be greatly appreciated

[tammyk_40]

You might just be going through w/d's due to the suboxone. What were you taking prior to the sub? Are you under a doctors care right now, or are you self medicating?

[christos24]

true the suboxone has naloxone in it, which is a pure opiate antagonist; that is mostly used for opiate overdoses to get the patients back to conciousness..you might have a bad reaction w/ the main drug buprenorphine, since both are posing problems but i beleive that the subutex was given to soon after suboxone was in your system...suboxones main chemical buprenorphine is very potent and a mixed agonist/antagonist opioid so it will bind tightly to the receptors and fight any other opiate/opioid competing to come on, so it rarely loses,...it stays and binds on tightly for a long time- 37 hrs average half-life, so your looking at 2 days for just one administration of the drug. subutex is just straight up buprenorphine which is 25-40% more potent than morphine, subutex is only given during the first few days of treatment during heavy detox off opiates. im am curious, what was your DOC?, and how much and how long were you using it? cuz suboxone should curb and from personal research and experience found that no matter how severe or how strong the opiate of choice was, it would always curb the wd and stop it after 30-45 mins of taking it...i was heavily addicted to heroin and oxycontin, along with any other pill to potentiate them,along with anything else i could possibly stick up my nose(xanax,ambien,valium,klonopins,adderall (adderrall),focalin,ritalin,hydroxyzine,baclofen,somas,etc.)..i was totally out of control for over two years. When I couldnt find any H or OC's I would resort to doctor shopping all around the southern region of wisconsin, ending up with a total of over 55 urgent cares, clinics, and hospitals with bills. sometimes they turned in my favor with a script for either a benzo or somas with norcos or percs, or it would bite me in the ***- i would get chewed out and told i needed major help and then get a shot of Toradol(a potent anti-inflammatory drug very similar to ibuprofen just stronger but no effect what so ever other than the pain shooting through your arse).  After 3 days of hell(detox) in the hospital i was given sublingually suboxone at 4mgs and my wd's vanished for a whole day..i did move up to the highest dose that is effective in suboxone's agonist side at 32mgs per day, and i found it to be absolutely pointless..the way buprenorphine is such a unique opioid is that it has a ceiling effect at 32 mgs and that the lower the dose the more agonist(opiate "buzz") effect it actually gives, so a dose of 4-16mgs has the most buzz effect compared to higher doses..higher doses actually give more and more wds...its crazy..i would give subutex a shot after the suboxone cleared out completely of your system but plz let me know your opiate abuse history to get a better idea of whats happening? also NA, group, and one on one meetigns are essential to recovery, absolutely, best of luck to you, i wish you the best-christos

[Ga Guy]

What did you switch to Sub from? What dosage?

[christos24]

the original poster switched from suboxone to subutex, if youare asking me then i was on suboxone 32mgs a day for 8 mths. and then after an accident, shattering my wrist i was taken off sub by my addiction specialist(ridiculous, i know) and put on 240mgs of mophine(ms contin) and then norcos along with the morphine..so before i got too out of control i started MMT,a methadone treatment program, and have been on it for almost 8 mths. I am at 105mgs daily and it has worked wonders for me and my addiction, but i also attribute my recovery equally to meetings and therapy...-christos

[Ga Guy]

I was actually asking what the original poster was on before Suboxone. If he was on something like a large Methadone dosage, then he may be experiencing withdrawals from his original opiate DOC. Some of these opiates have long half-lives and can be a Bear to switch over to Sub from.

[christos24]

gotcha i asked him the same question to get a better idea what is happening..im waiting to hear back..def. feel the same way about longer lasting opiates staying in the system or building up and storing in your body, so im def. curious...

[RSC69]

Thanks for the quick response.  It's great to be among others who have experienced the same pains.  I was taking tramadol prior to being placed on suboxone and then subutex.  Tramadol has its similarities to opiates, but is not a true opiate.  I am  unsure of how the subutex might actually work -vs- how it works against your normal opiate.  Any experience with the drug Ultram/Tramdol?  However, before taking tramadol I was on every opiate known to man in extreme dosages for years.  I was actually happy to be off of the opiates, but then the tramadol (ultram) became a major problem.  I really appreciate the help....

[Ga Guy]

Check out this post and answer from the Doctor on the expert forum on this very same topic.

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/724368

Since Tram works in two different ways, my bet would be that it's helping the opiate side, but doing nothing for the other.

[christos24]

ive had experience with tramadol, i used it recreationally every once ina while, but mainly would use it to help ease the wd's from my two DOC's Heroin or Oxycontin, which i snorted...i def. feel your pain, the tramadol wd can be very very serious as it also acts as a rapidly short-acting anti-depressant as well messing with seritonin levels,, so there is a chance of seizures from going cold turkey after being on high doses and for a really long time...tramadol helped me stay clean for two and ahalf months but of course i ended up back on my DOCs and back into the vicous cycle of addiction and that continued until i broke down to my family and went into suboxone treatment..i detoxed for 3 days with lorazepam(1mg p/hr.), clonidine(.025mgp/6hrs, also wore a clonidine patch that lasted 7 days), immodium ad(twice daily), tigan(an anti-nausea med used when nausea and vomiting), ambien(zolpidem-10mgs at nighttime for insomnia), and then after three days and once in bad withdrawals i was put on 4 mgs of sub and it alleviated all my wd symptoms, thats why i found it strange your reaction to not only suboxone but to subutex..i would have recieved subutex after 24 hrs but i came in on saturday and i guess suboxone docs dont come on weekends(bogusness)..it was the worst three days ever, but after that and starting sub it truly stopped any wd  and all i had to do was work on the mental side of the addiction and wd...it takes alot of hard work, soul-searching, and fighting, but it is definitely doable...NA, group, and therapy meetings are crucial in staying clean and in recovery i cant stress that enough. tramadol is a unique opioid in that it is not a full on agonist like morphine, hydrocodone,oxycodone,heroin, etc), but has very unique characteristics. it has the potency of a medium dose of codeine(a very mild opiate), but can help people in pain that would normally need a strong opiate, so it definitely is unique and with suboxone it is also unique. as i said iw as on suboxone treatment for 8 months and on 32 mgs a day. i played around with different potentiators(hydroxyzine,soma,tagamet(OTC),etc) and other substances but was able to avoid actual opiates. i was taking benzos like valium, klonopin, xanax, and more, along with soma's to add to the suboxone efects. I was also smoking bud the whole time. most of the benzos were prescribed from seeing a psychiatrist and telling her i ahd much worse panic attacks and anxiety than i actually had. even though i wasnt using my DOC i wasnt actually recovering or fixing my drug addiction. i am addicted toe verything not jsut heorin or oxycontin. I fooled myself for almost a year with suboxone as my crutch,. i ended up shattering ymw rist in an accident and my addiction doc actually took me down and eventually off of suboxone all together and put me on 240mgs of ms contin(morphine) and norcos(hydrocodone) daily, which was stupid for me to agree and absolutely ridiculous, so i was getting right back into the vicious cycle of opiate addiction, so i took action before it went to far, i stopped seeing him and started going to a methadone clinic, and have been their for 8 mths, i take 105mgs daily and wouldnt recommended needing to go any higher than right aroun 100mgs that would take care of any level of addiction. methadone does ahve severe wd's, but suboxone does too, the only difference is that suboxne is easier to taper down off of than done. methaodne has worked better for me cuz iw asnt really ready to quit being addicted to drugs, and am now attending as many meetings as i can and trying my hardest to stay positive and work on my addiction..with your adiction (addiction) if the suboxone doesnt work well with you i would try with the docs help tapering slowly off of tramadola dn then recieving some sort of treatment and therapy for teh addiction that would stop you switching one drug for anotehr and having to go througha nother taper plan..and the tramadol taper would be safely and medically supervised and you would go through very mild discomfort, if i could ahve done taht i would in a heartbeat believe me...i so wish i could have that chance...tapering with tramadol is definitely doable and manageable in all aspects, if you have questions about how to approach that or anything regarding the situation plz let me know ill be around anytime-christos

[mtgoat911]

subs got an opiate in it
and an opiate blocker
this maybe the cause of your medical problems
are you also having bad head-aches?
there is a sub doc on the professional forum
try your question over there
most people here share about there experiences on drugs
what happened, what it was like
he may have a more medical based anwer for you
i too got sick on sub
i was clean for 2 months before i got on the sub also
i threw up everyday, while i was on it
i believe it had to to with two active ingrediants in the sub
i hate that you are going through this
feel better soon
xo

[christos24]

some ppl get sick from suboxone either cuz its strong potency, or its unique mixed agonist/antagonist opioid features, my friends who treid very low doses less than 2mgs puked for over 12 hrs straight and were sicker than they ever had been before. I on the other hand would have to have at least 24mgs, but my daily pescribed amount was 32mgs so thats what i usually took and i got a mild buzz for the first 2 months. some get it longer. buprenorphine(suboxone's main chemical) actually works more as an agonist(opiates like heroin,morphine,hydrocodone,methadone,oxycodone,etc are pure agonists) at lower doses. Anything higher than 32mgs will actually put you into worse and worse wd. it turns into a pure opiate antangonist(whats sued during opaite overdoses) once taken in doses higher than 32mgs. that is the ceiling dose and the last effective dose before it ahs only negative effects.tramadol is a vety weak potency mixed opioid(150mgs=60mgs codeine(tylen9ol3's) the beginniers opiate), so going voer to suboxone may be too strong of a switch, sadly it would be a whole lot less dangerous if they switched from tramadol to vicodin which is still alot less potent than suboxone. buprenorphine is roughly 25-40% stronger than morphine, so its definitely a potent opioid. In France and other European countries, Buprenorphine is used as a very strong pain med, it is a very popular and is a rapidly growing problem and epidemic, with opiate abusers shooting and snorting it for pure recreational purposes, usually with subutex(which in europe is called Temgesic),where suboxone has naloxone stopping someone addicted to opiates from shooting it cuz if they shoot it it will put them into immediate terrible wd's for multiple hours.I notice headaches at least a few days out of the week while taking suboxone. It does have a blockade effect for other opiates. Buprenorphine casues the block not the nalaoxone, which is actually ineffective if taken correctly and even if it isnt reseach ahs foudn the naloxone to be inefective regardless. Buprenorphine being a mixed agonist/antagonist it binds tightly to the opaite receptors in teh braina dn will not allow any other opiate from knocking it off, especially after using it for a consitent amount of time, the longer you take the more blockade it has well. ppl who get off sub and try to go back to using will not feel anything at all from heroin, oxycontin, fentanyl, morphine, vicodin, etc for at elast a week. suboxone last right around 2 days-48hrs, so for it to leave your system, especially if tis been taken for long periods, it will take msot likely alot longer than a week to even feel miniscule effects from other opiates of abuse. methadone si the onyl drug out there that can voerride suboxone in giving an effect. i ahd taken a suboxone 24 hrs before taking 35mgs of methadone and had taken suboxone and morphine for 8 mths prior to that first time and i felt the 35 mgs of emthadone 20 mintues later and it got stronger and stronger throughout the day. so it def. knocked the suboxine off all the recptors and the done took them over, and still do...-christos

[RSC69]

Thanks for the info.  You seem very educated around all of this.  Went back to my doc. and he is trying me on 24mg/day, having me take 3 at a time.  I find it funny that I seem to be sensitive to this med, according to the doc, because at an earlier time I have been able to take any opiate, at any given time and amt. and never had a problem.  I am very anxious because I start a new job on Mon. and am still not feeling o.k. How often did you take your dose.....I find this difficult because the process for ingestion takes about 10 minutes.  How do you leave your work envirnment for that period of time, various times throughout the day.  I will be in constant contact with people so this is making me very nervous.
I am too getting headaches, bloches on my skin at times and my face will look flushed once this med starts to wear off....very embarrassing.  People have made comments already, and I don't know what to say.

[liscamdave]

Are you sure you aren't allergic to the sub? I mean, that does not sound right at all. Did you tell your dr about all these symptoms?

[RSC69]

Yeah I told my doc.  He thinks we just don't have the dose right.  To be honest I am thinking of going back on the Tramadol and attempting this another way.

[liscamdave]

Well, I don't know if I would do that...tram is pretty hard core stuff. But, the symptoms you are having sound like you are either on too much sub or your body is just rejecting it. It just doesn't add up. With sub, as long as you wait the alloted time, you should feel fine, almost like normal or what you remember normal to be. You should NOT be going through all you are going through..that is for sure...something just isn't right...I don't know though...maybe if you lower it, maybe you are on too much..

[RSC69]

The unfortunate thing is I am starting a new job on Mon.  I can't keep going through all these ups and downs.  I kind of feel forced to go backwards....ya know what I mean.

[refusingbondage]

I got pretty sick on suboxone too, but stayed on for over 2 years (nauseous and headaches every day).  BUT the skin blotches and red face does not sound typical.  Im with lisa - sounds like an allergic reaction or something..   Are they monitoring you Blood Pressure?  When I started in the doctor's office, they took the pressure every 20 minutes for over an hour to monitor.  They said suboxone can lower your blood pressure so they needed to make sure it stabalized.  It did lower mine, which is low to begin with, which is one of the reasons I was so sick.  But it wasnt dangerous.. I know Tramadol is more dangerous to get off of than opiates, but suboxone is not easy to detox from... I dont know many doctors who woudl have someone start suboxone for a tramadol addiction.. from what I understand you really should taper tramadol not quit it cold turkey.  Avis - or community leader knows a lot about tramadol - you should send her a note...

[RSC69]

The doc has not taken my blood pressure.  How do  I send Avis a note?  I am new to all this.

[wildwoodone]

I enjoyed the subxone (after opiates) and took 16 mg, 8 in the am and 8 in the evening.  I felt great the whole time I was on it, almost immediately.  I will have to say coming off of it was the same as it was for most others here, worse and lasted longer than vike withdrawal.