Aa
Therapeutic vs. Recreational Use
Is there a difference between using a drug for a medical reason and using a drug to get high. Do the lines between the two blur together in some cases? Is is possible to just take a drug as prescribed or is tolerance always going to develop leading to more and more? Do you take the drug because it alleviates your discomfort and is that the same as taking it to get high, (discounting pain)... I mean more like releiving anxiety. So many folks here on pain meds who need them trying to get off. Why? Why am I trying to stop since I feel worse now than before? I realize this is not just one question but a whole series and I may be the only person here interested in the this so feel free to ignore this question and talk about anything you want. Although, I would appreciate feedback if you have any.
I've posted many times about the same thing you are asking about. With me, it is a fine line between therapeutic and recreational use. After a few weeks, I get to feeling miserable as my tolerence increases. My solution has been to take a "drug holiday" for at least two weeks. I do all of my work out of my home so this is a lot easier than it would for someone who had to show up at the workplace everyday. Sure it takes a lot of willpower and strength to just quit every so often, but a lot of us do it.
As a disclaimer, everything I've just said is against all NA/AA philosophy. If a person can stay clean and manage the pain for two weeks, why not just quit altogether? Some can. J.B. can't.
As a disclaimer, everything I've just said is against all NA/AA philosophy. If a person can stay clean and manage the pain for two weeks, why not just quit altogether? Some can. J.B. can't.
Dear kstuebin, and everyone,
I'm so sorry to bust into this thread as your question is an important one. My life experiences have told me that at times there is a very fine line between taking a particular drug as prescribed for pain/anxiety or whatever the reason the medication was prescribed in the first place - and it blurring into chasing that proverbial high. I firmly believe that there are certain conditions that warrant relief via narcotics or benzos. The problem arrises when we start to experiment with the dosages. Most of us end up on that treadmill. If I can please take the time to try to explain my situation maybe you all can help me put things into perspective.
I've been here at this forum for years- vocal on and off but mostly silent as I read and read everything you all have to say. Some of you might remember me, I hope so.
Here is some background- I'll try to be brief.
I'm a chronic pain patient with RA, Fibromyalgia and RSD. I've been sick for about 7 years and on some form of narcotic pain relief the entire time. I'd never abused my meds and most times have taken less than the prescribed dose. As my condition deteriorated I was put on oxycontin. 30mg or 40mg twice a day. I did at one time start to experiment with my oxy, chewing them and running out before the end of the month. I went cold turkey-had some withdrawal and cleaned up my act. I talked to my doctor and it was decided, mutually , that it was in my best interest to take my oxycontin as prescribed- and I've done just that. Funny thing - I never got high from them - even when I chewed them. Here's where the HELL starts...
A year ago I was noticing that although I wasn't abusing I was running out of meds before the end of the month. My husband suggested that maybe *I* was taking extras. I am so stupid to have fallen for that. I turned my pills over to him and guess what?
He admitted to stealing from me. We went to therapy. Lies, more lies and promises all broken. Last week I got a new script for my oxycontin. I locked them in the safe in my closet only taking out what I would need for the day. His behavior was erratic and I knew in my gut he was using. Friday night I sat on the floor in my closet, counted my pills and came up 30 short. 30!! He'd eaten 30 10mg oxy's in 5 days. AND LIED about it. He lied right to my face that he had no idea why they were missing. Two days of torture and I finally got him to admit it. He's been using on and off all along- dipping into my meds - and when I come up short for the month there is always some logical excuse on his part and HUGE denial on mine.
S0 - here I am. Betrayed, heartbroken, lied to, confused. Not to mention, our 3 kids suspected he was using and now they have lost all respect for him.
Am I being stupid in thinking we can work this out? Can this be fixed? He is setting up therapy which I will attend with him. What do you think I should do? I cry all the time now and I feel so very alone. I feel like my life has been built on a huge lie. I love this man but what kind of love does he have for me when he can steal from me and bold face lie about it?
Please help me.
deja
I'm so sorry to bust into this thread as your question is an important one. My life experiences have told me that at times there is a very fine line between taking a particular drug as prescribed for pain/anxiety or whatever the reason the medication was prescribed in the first place - and it blurring into chasing that proverbial high. I firmly believe that there are certain conditions that warrant relief via narcotics or benzos. The problem arrises when we start to experiment with the dosages. Most of us end up on that treadmill. If I can please take the time to try to explain my situation maybe you all can help me put things into perspective.
I've been here at this forum for years- vocal on and off but mostly silent as I read and read everything you all have to say. Some of you might remember me, I hope so.
Here is some background- I'll try to be brief.
I'm a chronic pain patient with RA, Fibromyalgia and RSD. I've been sick for about 7 years and on some form of narcotic pain relief the entire time. I'd never abused my meds and most times have taken less than the prescribed dose. As my condition deteriorated I was put on oxycontin. 30mg or 40mg twice a day. I did at one time start to experiment with my oxy, chewing them and running out before the end of the month. I went cold turkey-had some withdrawal and cleaned up my act. I talked to my doctor and it was decided, mutually , that it was in my best interest to take my oxycontin as prescribed- and I've done just that. Funny thing - I never got high from them - even when I chewed them. Here's where the HELL starts...
A year ago I was noticing that although I wasn't abusing I was running out of meds before the end of the month. My husband suggested that maybe *I* was taking extras. I am so stupid to have fallen for that. I turned my pills over to him and guess what?
He admitted to stealing from me. We went to therapy. Lies, more lies and promises all broken. Last week I got a new script for my oxycontin. I locked them in the safe in my closet only taking out what I would need for the day. His behavior was erratic and I knew in my gut he was using. Friday night I sat on the floor in my closet, counted my pills and came up 30 short. 30!! He'd eaten 30 10mg oxy's in 5 days. AND LIED about it. He lied right to my face that he had no idea why they were missing. Two days of torture and I finally got him to admit it. He's been using on and off all along- dipping into my meds - and when I come up short for the month there is always some logical excuse on his part and HUGE denial on mine.
S0 - here I am. Betrayed, heartbroken, lied to, confused. Not to mention, our 3 kids suspected he was using and now they have lost all respect for him.
Am I being stupid in thinking we can work this out? Can this be fixed? He is setting up therapy which I will attend with him. What do you think I should do? I cry all the time now and I feel so very alone. I feel like my life has been built on a huge lie. I love this man but what kind of love does he have for me when he can steal from me and bold face lie about it?
Please help me.
deja
K,
This is frankly comming from an addict so take it with, uh, a grain of salt.
I think we know individually, what is abuse. For example. I am on prescription Valium 5mgs each morning and 5 mgs at night. I am a 180 pound man. Used without ethanol (which I am ambivalently doing nowadays) this is a small and for me therapeutic amount. Sure it numbs me but also has allowed me to be relatively successful with my personal and professional life.
The key word here is relatively.
If you use a small amount of Xanax to sleep, you may be doing the same responsible thing.
When I take hydrodcodone (also prescribed) 8 times a day when all I need is a dose twice a day, I am usually doing it because I like the high, not because of the pain. We have to assume responsibility to go beyond guilt for meds we need, but also maintain the balance between what we know is excessive. This is requires an almost Zen like balance ("all in moderation") which most of us don't have. Thus, you either use in moderation, abuse or refrain. I think you know which is which. If you don't, after a few years of regular use you will.
Hang in there.
Frank
This is frankly comming from an addict so take it with, uh, a grain of salt.
I think we know individually, what is abuse. For example. I am on prescription Valium 5mgs each morning and 5 mgs at night. I am a 180 pound man. Used without ethanol (which I am ambivalently doing nowadays) this is a small and for me therapeutic amount. Sure it numbs me but also has allowed me to be relatively successful with my personal and professional life.
The key word here is relatively.
If you use a small amount of Xanax to sleep, you may be doing the same responsible thing.
When I take hydrodcodone (also prescribed) 8 times a day when all I need is a dose twice a day, I am usually doing it because I like the high, not because of the pain. We have to assume responsibility to go beyond guilt for meds we need, but also maintain the balance between what we know is excessive. This is requires an almost Zen like balance ("all in moderation") which most of us don't have. Thus, you either use in moderation, abuse or refrain. I think you know which is which. If you don't, after a few years of regular use you will.
Hang in there.
Frank
Deja,
Oxy's go beyond love and into the phisilogical realm of craving. He probably started because of some underlying problems. The fact that he is willing, even arranging therapy, is a very good thing. If you find a good therapist this may be a chance for your husband to overcome the mistakes he made. Your feelings seem valid to me and I am sure compassion for him is hard to come by now. However, if you want your life to go on with him, really try therapy, give him a chance and hang in there. Don't stay away so long. Come back here where there is usually some very good and insightful support.
Keeping you in my thoughts,
Frank
Oxy's go beyond love and into the phisilogical realm of craving. He probably started because of some underlying problems. The fact that he is willing, even arranging therapy, is a very good thing. If you find a good therapist this may be a chance for your husband to overcome the mistakes he made. Your feelings seem valid to me and I am sure compassion for him is hard to come by now. However, if you want your life to go on with him, really try therapy, give him a chance and hang in there. Don't stay away so long. Come back here where there is usually some very good and insightful support.
Keeping you in my thoughts,
Frank
if a person uses mood altering drug long enough, some form of
habituation or metabolic addiction will set into action. i tend
to think of addictive drugs as being the one's ypu gget sick as
hell when you don't have them. this is called abstinence syn-
drome. drugs of this type are opiates, bariturates,tranks, and
lets not forget ethyl alcohol. addiction is a very loosely used
term since the rise and fall of the 30 day, 12 step treatment
programs. these treatment programs would treat a "lsd habit" if
they could get the money from the lsd addict. a person may de-
velope a habit of taking pep pills such as dexadrine, but there
isn't a matabolic addiction in play here. i've never seen a
person get physically ill from lack of dexedrine. the classic
model of addiction requires a demonstratable abstinence syndrome.
the word addict is really overused in our society. recently i
went to a NA meeting and this guy stands up and introduces him-
self as being addicted to pornoggraphy, gambling, and methidrine!
Geeze i was glad he didn't tell us his story! now this guy might
have some strange habits, but he isn't an addict unless he is
taking truly addicting drugs. to a certain degree addiction is
a disease of exsposure. if you never do addicting drug, you can't
be a drug addict. i hear a lot of talk about "addictive person-
alitys." Until they come up with a genetic model, this kind of
talk comes from some one who has been through treatment (and
sold a bill of goods), or they work in one and are trying to
drum up business. hell the rage of popularity of "treatment
center" has even altered and watered down the very organizations
(AA & NA) they modeled themselves after.
I do very much the same thing as JB. i take regular breaks away
from opiates. i do this so when i go back on, they work more
effectively. it give my colan a chance to do some much needed
catchin up. also this allows me to feel something, even if it
is just pain.
Now if there is some one out there that thinks they are addicted
to pornogrraphy, thats fine with me. that doesn't mean i'm go-
ing to endorse their bulshit either.
if you use truly addictive drugslong enough, your use will no
longer be recreatioal. you will be using drugs to cure the
abstinance syndrome of addiction.
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
habituation or metabolic addiction will set into action. i tend
to think of addictive drugs as being the one's ypu gget sick as
hell when you don't have them. this is called abstinence syn-
drome. drugs of this type are opiates, bariturates,tranks, and
lets not forget ethyl alcohol. addiction is a very loosely used
term since the rise and fall of the 30 day, 12 step treatment
programs. these treatment programs would treat a "lsd habit" if
they could get the money from the lsd addict. a person may de-
velope a habit of taking pep pills such as dexadrine, but there
isn't a matabolic addiction in play here. i've never seen a
person get physically ill from lack of dexedrine. the classic
model of addiction requires a demonstratable abstinence syndrome.
the word addict is really overused in our society. recently i
went to a NA meeting and this guy stands up and introduces him-
self as being addicted to pornoggraphy, gambling, and methidrine!
Geeze i was glad he didn't tell us his story! now this guy might
have some strange habits, but he isn't an addict unless he is
taking truly addicting drugs. to a certain degree addiction is
a disease of exsposure. if you never do addicting drug, you can't
be a drug addict. i hear a lot of talk about "addictive person-
alitys." Until they come up with a genetic model, this kind of
talk comes from some one who has been through treatment (and
sold a bill of goods), or they work in one and are trying to
drum up business. hell the rage of popularity of "treatment
center" has even altered and watered down the very organizations
(AA & NA) they modeled themselves after.
I do very much the same thing as JB. i take regular breaks away
from opiates. i do this so when i go back on, they work more
effectively. it give my colan a chance to do some much needed
catchin up. also this allows me to feel something, even if it
is just pain.
Now if there is some one out there that thinks they are addicted
to pornogrraphy, thats fine with me. that doesn't mean i'm go-
ing to endorse their bulshit either.
if you use truly addictive drugslong enough, your use will no
longer be recreatioal. you will be using drugs to cure the
abstinance syndrome of addiction.
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
if'n ya don't mind, I'm gonna put on my professional hat for a sec as well as show up as a fellow addict, in response to your question. Everyone here so far answered extremely eloquently, and I pretty much agree with all that has been said, with one caveat.
The caveat is this...most anxiety disorder can be helped enormously with a combination of medication such as a benzo and cognitive behavioral therapy. The research on Panic Disorder for instance, shows that using medication alone rarely if ever remits the symptoms over the long haul. Therapy alone, with no meds, works to alleviate and in many cases eradicate the episodes. It just tends to take longer without meds. Meds alone only aleviate the symptoms, they don't stop the problem. The protocol where I work, in treating Panic Disorder and Anxiety Disorders, is to start with a benzo plus therapy, and most often they add an SSRI. Then, in about a month, when the therapy skills start to take hold, the benzo is tapered, the ssri is continued for 6 months, and the therapy is the main treatment. I've seen this work for many many people. Certainly not all. There are some cases of intractable anxiety that just requires benzos long term, no matter what. But, the research and my experience does show that therapy, the behavioral-skills training kind in specific, treats anxiety much better than meds. When you go off the meds, the anxiety returns, whereas with therapy, you change your anxiety response. PET scans of the brain have shown that this kind of therapy permanently alters the brain. Fascinating stuff. Works for OCD as well.
Geez you guys..can you tell I'm back at work? LOL
Ksteubin, even a non addict will build a tolerance to a med like a benzo or a narcotic when they take it as prescribed. It is just what the body does. bummer, huh? oi.
For me, the guideline for when I am using as prescribed vs using addictively is how preoccupied I am with it, and how it affects my life. I crossed the line a while ago, and I don't know that for me there is ever any going back to moderation. I'm lucky that my pain, for now, is manageable. I lied to myself for a long time about my use. I lived in hell, and sacraficed my relationships for that stupor. I can't tell you how good it feels to be free. Yes, I get cravings. Sometime very bad ones. I hate that part. Oi!
Kip, I disagree with you, but only on one point. I do think that there is addictive behavior, even if the body is not physically dependant. When I was using hydro every night for a few years, I never got physically dependant, but I was taking a ton of it every night, definately abusing it and definately was deep into my addict nature. Eventually I started to take it round the clock and got physically addicted as well, thus the hellish withdrawals. ::shudder
Also, I do think that people can become addicted to "processes" such as addictive eating, gambling etc. When it interferes with your life causing huge negative consequences and you still can't stop...it is an addiction, in my humble opion. Maybe semantically, we can call the non physical dependance stuff "compulsions" and the physically dependant stuff "addiction" to be more acurate.
Deja..there is always hope. The fact your hubby is willing to go to therapy is a good sign. Yes, it can get better. But it is often a slow hard road, and he has to really be willing to face his problem and get honest. Good luck..and please keep us posted.
love you all,
WW
The caveat is this...most anxiety disorder can be helped enormously with a combination of medication such as a benzo and cognitive behavioral therapy. The research on Panic Disorder for instance, shows that using medication alone rarely if ever remits the symptoms over the long haul. Therapy alone, with no meds, works to alleviate and in many cases eradicate the episodes. It just tends to take longer without meds. Meds alone only aleviate the symptoms, they don't stop the problem. The protocol where I work, in treating Panic Disorder and Anxiety Disorders, is to start with a benzo plus therapy, and most often they add an SSRI. Then, in about a month, when the therapy skills start to take hold, the benzo is tapered, the ssri is continued for 6 months, and the therapy is the main treatment. I've seen this work for many many people. Certainly not all. There are some cases of intractable anxiety that just requires benzos long term, no matter what. But, the research and my experience does show that therapy, the behavioral-skills training kind in specific, treats anxiety much better than meds. When you go off the meds, the anxiety returns, whereas with therapy, you change your anxiety response. PET scans of the brain have shown that this kind of therapy permanently alters the brain. Fascinating stuff. Works for OCD as well.
Geez you guys..can you tell I'm back at work? LOL
Ksteubin, even a non addict will build a tolerance to a med like a benzo or a narcotic when they take it as prescribed. It is just what the body does. bummer, huh? oi.
For me, the guideline for when I am using as prescribed vs using addictively is how preoccupied I am with it, and how it affects my life. I crossed the line a while ago, and I don't know that for me there is ever any going back to moderation. I'm lucky that my pain, for now, is manageable. I lied to myself for a long time about my use. I lived in hell, and sacraficed my relationships for that stupor. I can't tell you how good it feels to be free. Yes, I get cravings. Sometime very bad ones. I hate that part. Oi!
Kip, I disagree with you, but only on one point. I do think that there is addictive behavior, even if the body is not physically dependant. When I was using hydro every night for a few years, I never got physically dependant, but I was taking a ton of it every night, definately abusing it and definately was deep into my addict nature. Eventually I started to take it round the clock and got physically addicted as well, thus the hellish withdrawals. ::shudder
Also, I do think that people can become addicted to "processes" such as addictive eating, gambling etc. When it interferes with your life causing huge negative consequences and you still can't stop...it is an addiction, in my humble opion. Maybe semantically, we can call the non physical dependance stuff "compulsions" and the physically dependant stuff "addiction" to be more acurate.
Deja..there is always hope. The fact your hubby is willing to go to therapy is a good sign. Yes, it can get better. But it is often a slow hard road, and he has to really be willing to face his problem and get honest. Good luck..and please keep us posted.
love you all,
WW
OK friend:
lets diagree. i never argued "addictive behavior." First and last
addiction is a metabolic disorder. How else would you explain the
detox recipe that Thomas has refined? also the trace mineral combo
of pillpopa. of course their is a psychological component to the
metabolic disease of addiction. For all the respect i have for
behaivoral science, it alon can not explain the British model of
addiction. when you speak of addictive behavior are you speaking
behavior of addicted people or are you using "pop" language which
allows a looser use of a term. i can tell you i'm addicted to
walking my dog, but i won't **** my pants if i miss a day (the
dog would **** on the carpet maybe). when i was using and truly
addicted i had to have the rough equivlent of 3 grains of morphine
sulfate 3 times a day or i was shitting in my pants sick. a be-
haviorist could observe me till hell wouldn't have either one of
us. said behaviorist could not help me with my problems as a whole,
until the metabolic disorder of addiction was addressed. so say
you detox me, then you might be able to dig up the sub-sruface
parts of my personality that are "disordered." or i could say
thanks but no thanks, join the church of scientology, get cleared
and dedicate my life to l ron hubbard. what about a person who
just loves junk? you've had a chance or two to interact with
such people, are they affected in any other way than metabolicly?
i think the two of us could argue well into tonight, and never
agree. a friend at work runs a research project called calatrichid research (hey i can't spell). It's basically primate
behavior research. part of it is addiction studys. this man is
close enough to the top of his field (if you can judge a person
by the amount of grant money they can scratch up). The only con-
clusion his research has come to is addiction is metabolic in
nature and is a disease of exposure. i don't believe there is
a personality type that is typical to all addicts in general.
hey keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
lets diagree. i never argued "addictive behavior." First and last
addiction is a metabolic disorder. How else would you explain the
detox recipe that Thomas has refined? also the trace mineral combo
of pillpopa. of course their is a psychological component to the
metabolic disease of addiction. For all the respect i have for
behaivoral science, it alon can not explain the British model of
addiction. when you speak of addictive behavior are you speaking
behavior of addicted people or are you using "pop" language which
allows a looser use of a term. i can tell you i'm addicted to
walking my dog, but i won't **** my pants if i miss a day (the
dog would **** on the carpet maybe). when i was using and truly
addicted i had to have the rough equivlent of 3 grains of morphine
sulfate 3 times a day or i was shitting in my pants sick. a be-
haviorist could observe me till hell wouldn't have either one of
us. said behaviorist could not help me with my problems as a whole,
until the metabolic disorder of addiction was addressed. so say
you detox me, then you might be able to dig up the sub-sruface
parts of my personality that are "disordered." or i could say
thanks but no thanks, join the church of scientology, get cleared
and dedicate my life to l ron hubbard. what about a person who
just loves junk? you've had a chance or two to interact with
such people, are they affected in any other way than metabolicly?
i think the two of us could argue well into tonight, and never
agree. a friend at work runs a research project called calatrichid research (hey i can't spell). It's basically primate
behavior research. part of it is addiction studys. this man is
close enough to the top of his field (if you can judge a person
by the amount of grant money they can scratch up). The only con-
clusion his research has come to is addiction is metabolic in
nature and is a disease of exposure. i don't believe there is
a personality type that is typical to all addicts in general.
hey keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
Very interesting stuff you put out here. I've been an IV abuser of morphine and at times heroine way in the past. I went through treatment and have been involved with NA or AA for at least 25 years. I suppose this qualifies me as an addict.
As a pain patient of late, I find that things are a whole lot different than they were. I still like the feeling of narcotics and that is about all I do crave. When I abstain, I get none of the physical withdrawals. It usually takes a full week before my mental cravings set in and they can get pretty intense at times. It's a battle of mind over matter for me.
I could have picked up my month's supply of vicodin today but have chosen not to. But the day isn't over, yet. I'm praying for strength and thinking I'm better off waiting until at least tomorrow.
Tell me, am I losing my mind? I just want be in control over the drugs rather than them over me. It's my preoccupation right now. J.B.
As a pain patient of late, I find that things are a whole lot different than they were. I still like the feeling of narcotics and that is about all I do crave. When I abstain, I get none of the physical withdrawals. It usually takes a full week before my mental cravings set in and they can get pretty intense at times. It's a battle of mind over matter for me.
I could have picked up my month's supply of vicodin today but have chosen not to. But the day isn't over, yet. I'm praying for strength and thinking I'm better off waiting until at least tomorrow.
Tell me, am I losing my mind? I just want be in control over the drugs rather than them over me. It's my preoccupation right now. J.B.
JB:
just one quick question. is it drugs or is it pain that is your
master. Lately i've noticed when i skip my oxy for a couple of
days i don't get the typical withdrawal. I do have intense pain
of 7.5 or above. the pain doc i see claims that intense pain
can shortcircuit with drawal. the last pain doc i had claimed i
wasn't telling the "truth"
the way i see it for me right now, is physical pain is my master.
no matter how much dope i take it is always lurking, waiting for
the drugs to wear off. sort of like the chicken or the egg thing.
just one quick question. is it drugs or is it pain that is your
master. Lately i've noticed when i skip my oxy for a couple of
days i don't get the typical withdrawal. I do have intense pain
of 7.5 or above. the pain doc i see claims that intense pain
can shortcircuit with drawal. the last pain doc i had claimed i
wasn't telling the "truth"
the way i see it for me right now, is physical pain is my master.
no matter how much dope i take it is always lurking, waiting for
the drugs to wear off. sort of like the chicken or the egg thing.
Thank you so much you guys, for responding so fast. I am not a stranger to addiction so I am wrestling with many things here. I feel like I've walked this road before as my first husband was a physically abusive alcoholic. I'm no angel. I've been abusing my drugs on and off for years. My last time posting actively here I was detoxing myself off oxy (I too take those narc-breaks now and then for various reasons) and Wizard was helping me (as were all of you).
The thing I am wrestling with the most is the LIES and deception. How do I send the message that I can't live in a relationship built on lies? Do I leave? Do we separate until he can prove he's clean and willing to stay clean? Do I have to live this nightmare for the rest of my life? Sorry to be dramatic but I don't know if I can battle my own demons and at the same time be sympathetic to his, especially since he stole the drugs from me. I've cut myself off emotionally from everyone and everything right now and as stupid as this sounds- I'm tempted to chew a handful of my oxy's and vegetate for the rest of the night. I know that won't solve a thing- I know that.
Love to All,
deja
The thing I am wrestling with the most is the LIES and deception. How do I send the message that I can't live in a relationship built on lies? Do I leave? Do we separate until he can prove he's clean and willing to stay clean? Do I have to live this nightmare for the rest of my life? Sorry to be dramatic but I don't know if I can battle my own demons and at the same time be sympathetic to his, especially since he stole the drugs from me. I've cut myself off emotionally from everyone and everything right now and as stupid as this sounds- I'm tempted to chew a handful of my oxy's and vegetate for the rest of the night. I know that won't solve a thing- I know that.
Love to All,
deja
Is it addiction or preoccupation? is it that we don't have anything else going on in our lives, or that we can't deal with what's going on in our life? is it that your were born with a morhpine deficiency and me with a valium void?
"My best friend my doctor won't even tell me what it is I got."
We make choices, that's about it as far as I can tell. Choices may lead to having a cup of mocha or shitting you pants w/o your junk, but it starts and ends with choices.
Turn your back to the sun and walk in to the cool darkness. Whatever, time's a wasting.
Begging everyone's indulgence for my tangential take here,
Frankster
"My best friend my doctor won't even tell me what it is I got."
We make choices, that's about it as far as I can tell. Choices may lead to having a cup of mocha or shitting you pants w/o your junk, but it starts and ends with choices.
Turn your back to the sun and walk in to the cool darkness. Whatever, time's a wasting.
Begging everyone's indulgence for my tangential take here,
Frankster
Hi Kip,
Yep, we can agree to disagree my friend. :-)
At least somewhat.
I do agree that addiction is a metabolic disorder, and that it is a physiological experience. I think I just accept a broader definition of when the behaviors of compulsion cross over the line to addiction.
What I do know, is that whateverthehellitis, Love helps me manage it, and your love Kip, and that of everyone here, has given me my life back, at least for today...and for that I am eternally gratefull.
By the way...thanks for the angel on my shoulder. He hangs out there a lot since you've described him to me, and I've named him Harry. :-)
lots of love,
WW
Yep, we can agree to disagree my friend. :-)
At least somewhat.
I do agree that addiction is a metabolic disorder, and that it is a physiological experience. I think I just accept a broader definition of when the behaviors of compulsion cross over the line to addiction.
What I do know, is that whateverthehellitis, Love helps me manage it, and your love Kip, and that of everyone here, has given me my life back, at least for today...and for that I am eternally gratefull.
By the way...thanks for the angel on my shoulder. He hangs out there a lot since you've described him to me, and I've named him Harry. :-)
lots of love,
WW
Now you are sounding like my own doctor. He believes it's the discomfort level I'm experiencing.
As I've described it some time ago, the chronic illness I have makes me feel like I'm in withdrawals 24/7, anyway. After a few years of feeling this way, you get used to it and go on about life. What's wrong with wanting to feel good for a change? But like everything in life, every upside has a downside. J.B.
As I've described it some time ago, the chronic illness I have makes me feel like I'm in withdrawals 24/7, anyway. After a few years of feeling this way, you get used to it and go on about life. What's wrong with wanting to feel good for a change? But like everything in life, every upside has a downside. J.B.
Lies...god, they sure can be a deal breaker, can't they?
My husband has lied to me in the past, around issues of infidelity, and it hurt beyond words. My ability to trust him ever again was damaged, but not beyond repair. We worked it out.
I've also lied to him, a lot, about my hydrocodone addiction. The vicodin was MY affair (as Frank Lee refers to valium as his other spouse..it is not joke..I totally understand) He hung in there with me, and for that I am grateful. We were in marriage counseling for 2 years, the whole time I pretended to be working on our marriage issues, I was abusing hydro every night, making myself totally unavailable emotionally to him. And I'm a bloody shrink who's supposed to know better.
It is a personally choice, to figure out what the deal breaker is for you, and what your "hanging in there" limits are. Different for each of us, I'd wager. I'm sorry you are in this situation. Any support I can offer, is yours. I don't have hard and fast answers, but I think I can conjure up a good question or two.
Has he been overall a good partner to you? Do you have it in you to forgive the lies and build trust back up over the next year or so? Does he seem sincerely ready to get help?
please..do keep us posted.
lots of love,
WW
My husband has lied to me in the past, around issues of infidelity, and it hurt beyond words. My ability to trust him ever again was damaged, but not beyond repair. We worked it out.
I've also lied to him, a lot, about my hydrocodone addiction. The vicodin was MY affair (as Frank Lee refers to valium as his other spouse..it is not joke..I totally understand) He hung in there with me, and for that I am grateful. We were in marriage counseling for 2 years, the whole time I pretended to be working on our marriage issues, I was abusing hydro every night, making myself totally unavailable emotionally to him. And I'm a bloody shrink who's supposed to know better.
It is a personally choice, to figure out what the deal breaker is for you, and what your "hanging in there" limits are. Different for each of us, I'd wager. I'm sorry you are in this situation. Any support I can offer, is yours. I don't have hard and fast answers, but I think I can conjure up a good question or two.
Has he been overall a good partner to you? Do you have it in you to forgive the lies and build trust back up over the next year or so? Does he seem sincerely ready to get help?
please..do keep us posted.
lots of love,
WW
To anyone writing me at
***@****
Please put something in the subject field that mentions the forum. I've gotten on this porno mailing list from hell and get piles of e-mails disguised to look like normal messages. If I've failed to answer someone, it's probably because of this.
Thomas
***@****
Please put something in the subject field that mentions the forum. I've gotten on this porno mailing list from hell and get piles of e-mails disguised to look like normal messages. If I've failed to answer someone, it's probably because of this.
Thomas
ww:
an angel named Harry??!!
one of the closet shooting buddys i ever had was named Harry!! i'll
be honest i got the keep an angel onyour shoulder from a song by
Tom Russell called "box of visions." the best version of this song
is on a Tom Russell album call "the long way around." he does this song in duet with Iris Dement. never heard of these oeople? well
check it out, i don't even have to be stoned to listen to them.
"wait awhile and you'll grow stronger
never mind what the sad folks say
just keep an angel on your shoulder
never throw your dreams away
for they may save your life one day"
my wife and i saw tom russell and andrew hardin last april. they
were kicking off Tom's latest album "Borderland." it was a very
small concert (60 people) at a bed and breakfast in Sioux City, Ia.
this concert was the last thing we did before my surgery in May. i even had to argue with the cutter doc, see i just wanted to do this before whatever happened with surgery.
so.. keep an angel on your shoulder (hey i'm a thief--drugs words
whatever
kip
an angel named Harry??!!
one of the closet shooting buddys i ever had was named Harry!! i'll
be honest i got the keep an angel onyour shoulder from a song by
Tom Russell called "box of visions." the best version of this song
is on a Tom Russell album call "the long way around." he does this song in duet with Iris Dement. never heard of these oeople? well
check it out, i don't even have to be stoned to listen to them.
"wait awhile and you'll grow stronger
never mind what the sad folks say
just keep an angel on your shoulder
never throw your dreams away
for they may save your life one day"
my wife and i saw tom russell and andrew hardin last april. they
were kicking off Tom's latest album "Borderland." it was a very
small concert (60 people) at a bed and breakfast in Sioux City, Ia.
this concert was the last thing we did before my surgery in May. i even had to argue with the cutter doc, see i just wanted to do this before whatever happened with surgery.
so.. keep an angel on your shoulder (hey i'm a thief--drugs words
whatever
kip
You're a professional? Well.
I would like to "buy" some advice.
About a month ago, I had some very intense situational traffic involving my employment. I was wound up so tight with anxiety about it, I could hardly breathe. Lucky for me I had already made a prior appointment with a psychiatrist to deal with other, unrelated matters. So, naturally, when I got into his office I dealt with the current traffic first.
Result? He's got me on 75 mg Effexor XR in the morning, .5 mg Klonopin twice a day, and 150 mg Serzone (which I was already on, given to me by my pain management guy). Actually, he prescribed 1 mg klonopin twice a day, but I never took that much. And now I take .5 mg at night just before going to bed, and only .25 mg in the morning before going off to work.
That's the situation as it stands right now. He says he can have me off the klonopin in six days. Does that sound right to you? He went on about half-lives and such, but I'm in no rush. The situational traffic I mentioned has subsided, and I'd like to get off the klonopin altogether. Effexor too. What's the best way to do this? Will Thomas' recipe work for Klonopin withdrawal too?
Anyway, I'd really appreciate your advice in this matter. I can see how a person could abuse benzos if they were of a mind to do so. I'm not. I'd just like to be off 'em. It's only been a month and in my mind, the sooner I start getting off, the better. What to do?
Many Thanks,
Francois
I would like to "buy" some advice.
About a month ago, I had some very intense situational traffic involving my employment. I was wound up so tight with anxiety about it, I could hardly breathe. Lucky for me I had already made a prior appointment with a psychiatrist to deal with other, unrelated matters. So, naturally, when I got into his office I dealt with the current traffic first.
Result? He's got me on 75 mg Effexor XR in the morning, .5 mg Klonopin twice a day, and 150 mg Serzone (which I was already on, given to me by my pain management guy). Actually, he prescribed 1 mg klonopin twice a day, but I never took that much. And now I take .5 mg at night just before going to bed, and only .25 mg in the morning before going off to work.
That's the situation as it stands right now. He says he can have me off the klonopin in six days. Does that sound right to you? He went on about half-lives and such, but I'm in no rush. The situational traffic I mentioned has subsided, and I'd like to get off the klonopin altogether. Effexor too. What's the best way to do this? Will Thomas' recipe work for Klonopin withdrawal too?
Anyway, I'd really appreciate your advice in this matter. I can see how a person could abuse benzos if they were of a mind to do so. I'm not. I'd just like to be off 'em. It's only been a month and in my mind, the sooner I start getting off, the better. What to do?
Many Thanks,
Francois
Right now I feel as if "I" could use a tranquilizer. I live outside of Memphis. On the news there was a postal worker rushed to a minor emergency due to fumes from a box..Then they quantined the clinic. Of course haven't heard anything more definite. Then the grey hound incident-the guy getting his throat slashed-he's okay. Are you guys getting stuff like this in your area? I've started boiling water for drinking, just in case. Although I've had issues with my water before. Any professional or just plain everyday words to keep me from FREAKING OUT!! I love my little book of quotes but that's not helping. Thanks guys, Shotsy
Thanks for the feedback. Guess there's no definitive answer is there? I'm tapered down to 5 mg and it's nightmare city when I sleep now. Last night I dreamt I had about 10 cats in my bedroom, all different kinds, calicos, tabbies, grey, etc. It was wonderful because I love kitties. Then I realized they weren't real; I was hallucinating them. So I thought "Oh, I'm just dreaming." Then "No, I'm really awake and I tapered down too fast." Tried to dial 911 and none of the phones would work. Ain't this fun? Soon, I will be drug free but it will not be forever. Don't care what AA or NA says about that first drink or drug. I now know to never, never take them every day. But if I want a break, a high, call it what you want, I'm going for it. I'd get drunk but the hangovers are hell. Anyway, this is much nicer than being drunk. One last totally irrelevant question to the pain med users. I have never gotten a good high from pain meds. They put me in this kinda dreamy state but I don't sleep,just lay there and zone out and feel nauseous and kinda wierd. Unless, I use this formula, 2 percs and 4 beers. That works for some reason. Thanks again, everyone.
k
hang in there, at 5 mgs you are on a very low dose ( Valium, right?). I am not doctor, but have experience. I would suggest go to 3mgs for a week, 2mgs for a week and 1 mg for a week. Believe me, you can find a way to break the blue or yellow devils up to this size.
For the nth time, at the level you are taking unless you want to be drug free, very few people would call that abuse, even with a couple of drinks a day.
Re: the percs - I would think anyone would get high off 2 percs and two beers - is the etho /opiate dance which has been my partner for many a date ( we currently put a hiatus on our relationship). Be careful though, any combination of drugs and ethanol can be lethal for you or, others if you get behind machinery.
Are you taking the HTP at night for sleep?
Peace.
Frankie Lee
hang in there, at 5 mgs you are on a very low dose ( Valium, right?). I am not doctor, but have experience. I would suggest go to 3mgs for a week, 2mgs for a week and 1 mg for a week. Believe me, you can find a way to break the blue or yellow devils up to this size.
For the nth time, at the level you are taking unless you want to be drug free, very few people would call that abuse, even with a couple of drinks a day.
Re: the percs - I would think anyone would get high off 2 percs and two beers - is the etho /opiate dance which has been my partner for many a date ( we currently put a hiatus on our relationship). Be careful though, any combination of drugs and ethanol can be lethal for you or, others if you get behind machinery.
Are you taking the HTP at night for sleep?
Peace.
Frankie Lee
Yep, tried the HTP and it seems to work or is it the valium although the dose is so low at this point I doubt it. I'm going to take 5 mg for two more days and quit. I can't drag this out anymore. At this point, I would think there's no risk of seizures which was my main concern. But as I said, I don't preclude taking them in the future. I don't know your history and don't want to offend but when I was younger, I drank and drugged abusively and joined AA and it was not a good experience for me. It was very cult like. They used alot of scare tactics and isolating techniques. So I tend to ignore a lot of what they say, like one drink will send you back into alcoholic drinking. I'm proof that's not true and I'm talking 20 years here. They also had a saying "Take what you can use and leave the rest." So that's what I did with their program. Everything is 12 step now. I never got past the third step after 2 years. I prefer my one step program: "Deal with it" :-) Incidentally we have the same middle name: I'm Karen Lee.
Hi everyone. Has been a while since I posted. I got my vics filled and took them all in less than 9 days. 90. I am also on Paxil now, for anxiety. I think the Paxil is helping. I took my last vic today. will I go through withdrawal after just 9 days. I am so not looking forward to that. Also, I bought Thomas's withdrawal formula. Will vics make the Paxil not work? I have had anxiety all my life , but, am just now admitting to it and seeking treatment. I was always embarrassed before. I am alone, so I need your support. My kids are grown and I would never want them to know about all of this. Thanks to all of you. I read the forum everyday!
Butterbean
Butterbean
Hi Francois,
I'm a therapist with a Masters degree, not a MD, so take any medication advice I have with the proverbial grain of salt. What your Doc is doing sounds like the right thing to me. Klonipin has a pretty long half life, so I think you'll be fine. The Effexor he has you on is a pretty low dose, and it is unusual to see Effexor combined with Serzone, since they both do pretty much the same thing.
I'm sorry to hear that things got so rough for you..I hope they've resolved and that your anxiety has gone away.
Butterbean! Good to see you post again. I wondered how you were doing. Yes, the vics will make the paxil less effective. The paxil helps build seratonin levels, thus decreasing anxiety and depression. The vics deplete the serotonin levels, thus cancelling out the effects of the paxil if you take the vics regularly. The paxil will help you in the withdrawals though.
And...my guess is that you will indeed have to go through withdrawals after using round the clock 9 days. My Doc told me it takes from 5 to 7 days having a steady supply of the narcotic in your sytem for physical dependance to develop. My guess is that it won't be as intense a withdrawal as it would be if you had been doing it for months, or years, as I had been. Please let us know though, and tell us how you are doing.
lots of love,
WW
I'm a therapist with a Masters degree, not a MD, so take any medication advice I have with the proverbial grain of salt. What your Doc is doing sounds like the right thing to me. Klonipin has a pretty long half life, so I think you'll be fine. The Effexor he has you on is a pretty low dose, and it is unusual to see Effexor combined with Serzone, since they both do pretty much the same thing.
I'm sorry to hear that things got so rough for you..I hope they've resolved and that your anxiety has gone away.
Butterbean! Good to see you post again. I wondered how you were doing. Yes, the vics will make the paxil less effective. The paxil helps build seratonin levels, thus decreasing anxiety and depression. The vics deplete the serotonin levels, thus cancelling out the effects of the paxil if you take the vics regularly. The paxil will help you in the withdrawals though.
And...my guess is that you will indeed have to go through withdrawals after using round the clock 9 days. My Doc told me it takes from 5 to 7 days having a steady supply of the narcotic in your sytem for physical dependance to develop. My guess is that it won't be as intense a withdrawal as it would be if you had been doing it for months, or years, as I had been. Please let us know though, and tell us how you are doing.
lots of love,
WW
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