Update on BRIAN

[Cindy § Phil - Med Help International]

Thank you to Brighty, who wrote to us this morning asking if we have found Brian.

Sadly we have not been successful in tracking "Brian" down.  Sometimes privacy and annonymity can be a double-edged sword.  We may never know who "Brian" really is.  We can only hope that he has friends and support as wonderful as are found in this Addiction Forum!

Phil and I thank each and every one of you for your caring & concern.  We commend you and Dr. Steve for the wonderful community you've created here on Med Help International!

Cindy & Phil

[tom to Cindy and Phil]

thanks for the update on Brian. He is in the hands of god, one way or the other, I know.

If he's in detox and recovery it's not hard to believe that his sponsor told him to stay off the forum for the time being. I know he once accused himself of using this forum as a substitute for working a good program.

With my obsession with opiates, I can't imagine being able to work around them, watching nurses pass by with syringes loaded with Demerol or Dilaudid. It would be more than I could handle, I know.

It took my wife leaving me before I ever seriously considered entering any kind of recovery program.

Whatever the case, he has all my best wishes for success. Perhaps we'll get a post card from him when we least expect one.

God speed, Brian.

[Gina]

Sorry to interrupt the search for Brian as I was in tears at his last posting. But I need to know. I am 37 years old and have been through o.p. therapy in 1998 and March 2000, each time for 6 mos. Once again I am faced with the same old s***. Backsliding, feeling as if I function much better while under the influence, the horrible cravings, obssesion,etc. I even went to a recent NA meeting while under the influence. It was a wonderful experience. To make a long story short-- My parents are wonderful, caring and supportive, but for how much longer? My husband has grown very weary and isn't speaking to me at present. I have a 5 yr old dtr who is truly a gift from God. DILEMMA---- I am going to try Methadone maintaince therapy after much thought. I have read Dan and Tom's posts but haven't seen anything for a while. The one thing Dan didn't mention was PRICE!! I live in South Jersey and unless you have medicaid (which I don't) it's 250.00 for intake and 70.00 a week. You must attend daily plus 3 NA meetings including 1 inhouse which is an hour away. I'm really not trying to complain--but I am concerned about the time to come off what about withdrawl?  PLEASE D0C OR TOM TELL ME ANY AND ALL INFO YOU KNOW OR ANYBODY FOR THAT MATTER. My first appt. is Tues 9th at 11:00am. After that I must arrive daily at 700am until 950am. Any and all info would be greatly appreciated!!!! Thank You!!!! Just for info- I did not spend money on my habit, it was prescription painkillers not heroin. But it was ALOT of pills, up to 40 a day easy. I had a lot of "nice" friends who helped me out when I ran out, huh? Love you guys, please help answer my ques!!!!!

[tom to Gina]

doubtless Dan's answer to you at this point, at least, will be quite different than mine.
To date. I have two MMT clinics in my area, Orange County, Ca. One won't give me the time of day because I'm an rx opiate addict and don't shoot heroin, rob apartments, aren't either facing sentencing or under prosecution for a crime. That leaves the other clinic: unless I turn in the compassionate doctor who has for the last five years made it possible for me to satisfy my need for opiates without double doctoring, forgering scripts or buying black market pills, they won't admit me into the maintenance program. So you want to know how I'm doing? That's how I'm doing. I've totaly given up on the MMT program. I'm in contact with several physicians, some of them psychiarists, who are trying to sort out the new regulations which might, just might, allow them to treat me with buprenorphine, which, I suppose it's fair to say, is the next best thing to methadone. But the methadone program in SO Cal? ****. PURE ****. Don't waste your time. Wait for the new legislation to filter down into the private practice arena. That's what I'm doing. Until then, I'm just hanging on, like you.

[Frankinscense]

How important is your health Gina? How important is putting this horrible disease in remmission to you? Would you pay $280.00 a month and go for treatment daily for aproximately a year to put another killer disease such as cancer in remmission? How important is your liver to you? Have you priced a new liver lately? I admit that sounds a little steep. I do not pay that much. Where I live the cost of living is a lot less though. I go to my clinic once a week and attend daily 12 steep meetings. I also work 40+ hours a week. You must commit! You will thank yourself for it. You will be so happy for doing the right thing.
Have you checked pricing at another clinic in your area? The clinic that you mentioned sounds great! Believe me most clinics DO NOT offer the level of care that this clinic is offering you Gina. Tom can only dream of attending a clinic like you are being offered!  Things will be a lot better after you first dose.
Federal regulations state that after a period of time you can have six take homes if you stay clean. No relapsing! Be responsible and follow the clinic policy. Ask the clinic if you can have take homes after a period of time. The majority of clinics do offer take homes after a period of time. Express all your concerns to the clinic that you are considering. Ask them if you will receive the respect that you are demanding. If this clinic is a medical model-go for it. It sounds like it is. Lastly,do a search on the web, to learn absolutely all you can in regards to methadone maintenance. This is essential because you will be protected under ADA act.(americans with a disability act)
Knowledge is power. Read federal regulations for methadone clinics. If you have knowledge on this subject Gina, they cannot pull any bullshit(Xcuse my language) over your eyes. Search the web with methadone maintenace as the keyword. There are thousands of sites with tons of info to help you GIna. Lindesmith Center is just one. I wish all the best for you Gina. Remember, opiate addiction is a killer and we must do what we have to do to put this KILLER disease in remmission. I forgot to ask. Have you tried other means of abstinence? Have you seriously tried 12 step programs? Have you made genuine attempts to obtain sobriety through these programs? If you have,then MMT is for you. Another prerequisite(sp?) is your health. Is it failing you? IMO if you were taking 40+ pills a day most likely you are not in good health. And MMT is a good option for you.
   Gina,MMT is only rarely a lifetime thing. LAAM offers a three time a week option. With LAAM you only go to the clinic three times a week because it is even longer acting than methadone. Another thing is to demand liquid methadone because if you ever want to try a detox you can do it slowly. The slower the detox, the easier it is. A typical slow detox is one milligram every two to four weeks and is relatively painless this method. I better end this post before it is banned from the website b/cuz of length of content. Check for my soon to be released book at your local bookstore on opiate agonist therapies. Also, search opiate agonist therapies utilising a multi search>> search engine, such as Beaucoup to name one. I must end this post. Best of Luck Gina! I will help if I can with further questions in the future when I am available. I prefer to answer ?'s through the forum rather than through e mail, because I would like others to benefit from our posts and messages.
Sincerely,
Dan...(aka "doc dan")
  >>>                                                                P.S. "doubtless Dan"?? I hope you were not being disrespectful! I simply do not have time to exchange punches.Your Friend, Dan

[Gina]

Thank you both for your swift replies. I have tried the 12 step abstinence, etc.. but only for 8 mos or so. The only reason I know this will relieve cravings is I was once put on a duragesic patch after an auto accident and I had no cravings or obsessions about any other meds. I couldn't believe it myself, I actually felt NORMAL!!! Please tell me what LAAM is? I assumed it was methadone maintenance with a different name. I did read your posts in the past, but at that time I had no idea I would ever be heading in this direction, so I didn't absorb all I should have. I don't have AOL so what do you suggest I check under (web address)? Believe it or not God must be taking good care of me cause as far as I'm aware I'm in good health. Plus I don't look as if I've spent years abusing. I don't mean this negatively, but at the last NA meeting there was some hardcore looking women. Once again, I really am not trying to offend anyone,I've had a problem for about 6 years. I am a professional women with no physical clues. The info I gave you about the price, attending the 3 Na meetings and spending over two hours there a day sound normal?  I guess I feel lucky theywill take me considering Tom's plight. I was told after 4 mos. of doing the right thing, I may be able to then take some home. I know they take urine samples but how often? Please tell me how long you Doc Dan have been in treatment and your cost in you area. THANKS!!!

[Gina]

Thank you for your swift replies. I just wrote this whole response and it did not appear on the forum. Let's see if I can remember all I wrote. Doc Dan, how long have you been on it and what's your cost? What area are you from? Tom, tough break in CA, sorry to hear about your barriers. I am 37 and have been actively using for 6 years. My health (thank God) seems to be good. No offense, but I don't look like a drug abuser--I'm a proffessional, although I have lost my job due to stealing meds. Again, I am not trying to sound better than anyone, but the last NA meeting I attended there were some hard edged looking women there. On the other side of that coin, at least they were clean!!! Dan, did you have to attend the three NA neetings a week? How often did they test your urine? The reason I know this will work, I was involved in an auto accident a few years ago and the dr. gave me duragesic patches. I did not crave or obsess about other drugs for the first time in six years. I felt it was a miracle. But that too came to an end, and back to the grind for me. Dan, I do not have AOL so could you give me some web addresses for info?  At this point and time my husband is unaware of my choice. I told him in tears yesterday that I needed to talk to him but he came home from work and never asked so now I'm all pissed off and refuse to break the silence. I know wrong attitude but I'm so depressed every time I open my mouth I'm in tears!! What a wonderful life. Thank God for my wonderful,loving and supportive parents who applaud my decision. I am worried about the final detox when it's time to come off. Who decides when it's time. Again, I appreciate all your helpfulness. THANKS!!!!!!!!!

[Maryanne to All in the Circle]

Hi Everyone.  I posted here about 6 months ago.  I am an addict.  Love the opiates but am sick of living this way.  Can identify with almost EVERY SINGLE posting dating all the way back.  Thank God for you people.  My husband and I both take Lorcet and Percocet for pain that is long gone.  Now it's a new kind of pain.  Addiction.  He holds my prescription and only gives me an alloted amount (no more than 6 Lorcet daily).  I have tried tapering (some of you may remember me - in a car accident in 1998 - shoulder surgery - very interested in tapering the meds).  Anyway, because tapering hasn't worked for me, I am finally going to make THE MOST IMPORTANT PHONE CALL OF MY LIFE - I'm going to call an addiction specialist and try buprenephrine (that how you spell it?)  I've been on the net the last week everyday researching to find a way to detox.  I'm scared of the ROAD/Rapid method - don't think my body could take that.  Sort of like taking a year to gain 20 lbs then losing it all in a few hours instead of a few weeks. Just doesn't seem right for me.  Anyway, I am so happy to have you all to talk to and want to know if anyone here has tried the buprenephrine injections/pills, etc.  I live in New Jersey and am a health care professional.  Money is no object for my recovery as it is no object for my addiction.  I am very scared of withdrawal. My husband wants to quit too and we plan on using every tool to stay clean once we get there (NA/AA, internet rooms like this one).  Anyone use the medical detox with the buprenephrine?  Thanks for listening, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.  Sincerely, Maryanne

[tom to Dan]

I owe you an apology, Dan my friend,

I left out a comma, which would have made it, "doubtless, Dan's answer will ..."  how easily we miscommunicate! I merely meant that, if I were fortunate enough to be attending the same quality methadone clinic as you are, I would have, without a doubt, given her a more optimistic response. From what you told her, it sounds like she's found the right place. Good for her!

Meanwhile, what do I have to do, move to, where is it? Houston? Need a roommate, Dan? How are the springs on your couch?

I've visited both Orange County, Santa Ana, CA clinics now. Had you accompanied me on those visits, your disgust at what you would have seen there would have made my reaction seem like mild indigestion. I remember you warning me early in the game that there were clinics and then there were clinics. If you don't know much about Southern California, let me just say that Santa Ana is considered the unflushed toilet of Orange County. There was never much chance of any good clinics blooming in that garden, despite the abundance of fresh fertilizer.

Respectfully,

tom

[tom to Gina]

LAAM is some kind of variant of methadone that lasts longer. You only need to get dosed 3 times a week instead of every morning. Of course, after the reception I got at our Orange County, CA clinics, the discussion never made it to the subject of LAAM. It's supposed to be just as good as methadone. I'm not adverse at trying it, but I guess, here in OC, I need to rob some liquor stores and shoot some 7-Eleven clerks first before I qualify as a worthy candidate for the program. Just being a law-abiding citizen got me exactly nothing. I guess I have to be some kind of threat to society before I can be considered an addict in need of methadone maintenance.

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Did you read too much into Toms Post?  To me it looks like he is saying "No Doubt".  Instead he put "Doubtless".  
Over analyzing this stuff is where all the trouble starts.  This nitpicking gets us no where except off the subject and takes up precious room on threads.  I give Tom more credit than that.
Marcie.

[tom to Maryanne]

I hear the buprenorphine detox is the best. But where do you live? Out here in California, buprenex can only be prescribed for pain relief. I'm going bats waiting for the law to kick in here so I can get some help. Until then, I run my own "methadone maintenance" program. I have a generous but legal supply of Darvon, which is chemically related to methadone, so I maintain myself to keep functioning to earn a paycheck with my little pink Darvons. It works for me now, but I know I'm taking too high a dose of Darvon. Eventually, it will harm my liver. Probably already has. But what can I do?

[Gina]

Thanks again!! The LAAM, is that also methadone? What's the diff? I can't wait until Tues. Meanwhile I'm toughing it out. I have one 25mcg of duragesic and esgic which is doing absolutely nothing for me, I'm miserable. Actually, I guess it is keeping me from withdrawl which I am TOTALLY thankful for. To Tom, the area I will be traveling to an hour away is really a pretty ritzy place. I am so sick of living this way I could puke!!! I am so sorry about your dilemma, they asked how many bags a day I do and when I said none it's all pills they scheduled an intake anyway. I tried to call today to make sure I couldn't or wouldn't be turned away but couldn't get a live person to answer. They did tell me the lowest amount of time a person could be in treatment was 17 days. I'd like to stay for a lot longer than that except for the expense!!! DAN--Where are you? I would really like some info and answers--please sell me on this and tell me your cost?? THANKS AGAIN!!!  P.S. My wonderful parents are floating me a loan. I would hate to disappoint them again! What does the Methadone make you feel like--I feel I can't obtain a high anymore, just a feeling of maintenance. It sucks!!! Please answer soon-- I'm waiting by the minute!!!

[Frankinscense]

I have taken those little pink pulvules. Isn't that what eli lilly calls them. I didn't like them. They seemed a little to toxic for my needs at the time. If I took one too many I felt I was gonna stop breathing. Do not know if it was a panic attack or if it was really happening. Gave me big black circles under my eyes and made my kidneys and liver hurt a bit. I was taking maybe six a day. Whatever the pdr recommeded for the max daily dose. Anyways, after them I started on methadone. I got tired of chasing a high and I was worried about my vital organs.
                                                                  MMt helps keep the disease in remmission. I still feel cravings occasionally. I am on a very slow dose reduction. But you can bet if the disease returns and threatens my well being I will up my dose a bit. I want to try life on lifes terms once again. But if it doesn't happen at least I will have to take only a small maintenance dose.
                                                                  I think the future will allow our family doctors to treat our disease. Until then I will wait patiently and thank God for my health. Have you checked with California chapter of NAMA and expressed your concerns about the clinics in your area. They may be able to help with your problem. I think Ca. (Calnama.) has a very strong NAMA. Check with methadone watchdog they may be able to help with your problem. They are a group that helps stop problems with clinics. Do it man. Don't wait. Short acting narcotics are killers.
                                                                  I see what happened. You left out the comma. See how easy we can miscommunicate. My best to you.
Dan...

[Frankinscense]

Laam is a longer acting relative of methadone. It lasts 72 hours. You would have to go to he clinic three times a week. Express all you concerns to the clinic. They will not interfere with your work time. But you will have to get use to rising a bit earlier. Be thanfful you have a quality clinic to attend-many do not have that luxury. Gina everything will come into place after your first dose. There is no high with methadone when taken properly just a normal feeling of well being or feeling well. The high that you seek is the disease speaking. You must forget the high!
                                                                  Methadone is a medication,which occupies the endorphin receptors and stabilises the disrupted endorphin systems.  Methadone is a safe and effective medicine for a chronic relapsing disease that left untreated wreaks havoc on the addicts life!                                                                                   Gina,I pay 55.00 a week. I do not mind this because it is a small price to pay for my health. I am not real well off. I have a good job. It is not the best paying job, but I am not in my profession for the money.
Sincerely,
Dan..

[Gina]

I do not want the buzz anymore. I want the feeling of normalcy meaning I don't want the craving or obesession associated with short acting narcotics. I also don't want to feel the need to resort to crime (stealing from friends who have some) to cop a buzz. I am so tired of being soley driven by the need. I must tell you I tried to get a hold of the place over the weekend to ask my questions. I was given an 800 number and each time the counselor was so AGAINST methadone. For instance-- Why would I want to subsitute one drug for another--the withdrawl will be worse. I live in southern NJ and this guy wants to fly me to Fla for an inpatient detox and treatment program totally paid for by my insurance. He told me if I miss one dose of methadone I will be climbing the walls. I have to admit he scared me. I still plan on going Tues. 9th for intake and treatment. Dan-- How long have you been on it? I know you are going through a slow detox--any withdrawl effects? Have you ever missed a dose? Although I am going with my list of questions, help convince me!!!  THANKS AGAIN--GINA

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

First I just wanted to tell you that I wish you the best of luck! Please keep us posted on your adventure.  You sound like you are definitely ready for this. Even though I dont know you I think you will do just fine!  Would it be okay to ask what part of Florida it is in?  Hang in there Gina we are all rooting for you!
Sincerely,
Marcie.

[tom to Dan]

I'll followup with NAMA. Maybe they can help me find the "good" clinic in the area. Still believe you've got the answer, my friend. I know a resolution is near. Gotta hang on a little longer and stay the course. I'm looking forward to comparing my MMT experience with yours. I know you'll be able to help me make the most of it and avoid the pitfalls. Talk to you soon.
Your friend,
tom

[Frankinscense]

That counselor that you talked to is so full of misunderstandings of what methadone is about. If a counselor is gonna give advice about methadone,they darn well better know what they are talking about and leave their own prejudes out about the treatments. MMT is method to help a patient deal with the craving that are associated with opiate addiction.  It is a medicine for a  chronic relapsing disease. Not a replacement drug. Gina why would you want to miss a dose anyways? It is your medicine that keeps you well and feeling normal. Compare methadone to insulin. Does a insulin dependent person WANT to skip his dose of insulin daily? Does a heart patient want to skip a dose of his digoxin? No I don't think so! The consequences are worse for these patients if they skip a dose than if a methadone patient skips a dose. Your questions will be answered by the staff at the clinic if you ask them. Don't worry, everything will come into place after your first dose and experience what it is like to not have cravings and to feel normal again. I am not here to convince you. You must make up your mind. This is your decision Gina. You have to decide what YOU want. You will still have to fight your cravings even if you go to 10 cushy treatment centers in Florida. No treatment center can cure your cravings. Either you can deal with them through abstinence or you can't. You must decide! Have you tried abstinence through a twelve step program? Thats the only other possible  way to obtain abstinence if you do not want methadone as you cure for the disease. The twelve steps over an option to methadone. But, I am on methadone and have attended NA meetings daily, here lately.  I have lowered my dose very slowly and felt absolutely no discomfort. I went from 120mgm down to 50mgs with very little, if any, discomfort. The key is to do it slowly and utilise liquid methadone. Ask to use LIQUID Methadone. This is important. I use the diskettes but I do not have a choice. I must add one last important thing. Everyones therapuetic dose is different find yours and stay there. This is a dose that stops your cravings. For some it is twenty milligrams. Others,it is 300mgms. The lower your adequate or theraputic dose the better off you will be if and when you try to lower your dose. Some people choose to stay on methadone their entire lives. I have been on it since 1996 and have no problems with it. Gina,I gotta go help some paying clients now. A little thank you now and then would help me Gina>> Just kiddin' I know you have a lot on your mind.
Peace to You,
Dan..

[Gina]

I write thank you at every close of my post. I am so appreciative that I tell my friends and parents about you and this site. Please don't think I'm unappreciative cause I think I would lose my mind without you guys and gals! What happens if I get sick and can't make the drive--I know I'm thinking negatively but... To Marcie--Thanks for your words of encouragement I really need it. I live in southern NJ not Fla. The counselor from a 1-800 # told me he would fly me to Fla. for an inpatient treatment for free as long as I don't go the methadone route. Lots of negativity!!! Take care you guys and I will definitely keep you posted!!!!!!!!

[To Tom and rest of forum from Maryanne]

Thank you for your reply Tom.  I live in NJ and plan to go to Dr. Lance Gooberman (a friend that I don't talk to anymore went to him a while back to get of heroin,then opiates).  Anyway, I found on the net that this physician offers buprenephrine for detox.  My husband just told me last night that he is going to detox with  me.  He had said at first that he would taper but we all know that is nearly impossible to stick to.  So I asked him to go with me and he agreed.  I'm SO looking forward to getting off these things!!!!  I can't stand having to take them just to function.  First thing I do in the morning.  I want the first thing I do in the morning to be a cup of coffee and a morning jog!!  There are so many things that were important to me that I let go by the wayside (didn't even realize it until now).  Working out, keeping myself healthy, college - little by little  out the window on these pills. Was on my way to Med School before I became an addict! Thank you so much everyone for your continued postings and support!  I have 2 questions for anyone (1) Does anyone here know anything about Dr L.Gooberman (except the stuff that was in the news about them blocking him from administering the Rapid Detox method - cuz I know bout that) and (2) anyone detox on buprenephrine before?  What can my husband and I expect?  Thanks, Maryanne

[Frankinscense]

You are very welcome. Sometimes I come here and spill and my heart out trying to inform people how I was helped through methadone maintenance and how I keep this terrible disease in remmission and they come back with some ignorant remark like>> I cannot go on methadone because its "hard to get off of" , "I cannot drive 20 miles to get my medicine"," Someone might tell someone they saw me at a methadone clinic", " I have to dose with ugly junkies",etc. and etc.
Gina,I hope at the least that I helped you weigh the pros and cons! Listen to your HEART! This is your decision! Let no one make this decision for you. I know with a clinic that you described you will be helped with your addiction. Will your personal insurance,at least get past the initial visits.
Even the best treatment centers cannot cure your cravings. Look at Robert Downey Jr. If he had a medicine like methadone or LAAM,I am fairly certain he would not have relasped. I know it's hard to determine if you can afford it. But this is where you are! You did not become an addict overnite and you will not be fixed overnite. Gina, it takes about a year on MMT, research has determined before you should try a detox. If you want to stop methadone treatments, you can do a slow detox. Again,it would be to your advantage to use liquid methadone from the beginning.
                                                                  Your are facing a disease that you will have to face at different levels your entire life. Until you face your personal issues and problems,it will be hard to detox any opiate. For heavens sake NONE are easy to detox. They are a all F****** hard to get off of. Thats the nature of this group of drugs. At least a year of MMT will allow you to solve your personal problems(if you have any) and get your life back together. Take care of YOURself and everything else will fall into place. Do not wait until the short acting opiates take their toll on your looks and health. Danny...

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Hi!  What part of Florida was the treatment center in?  I wanted to tell you to, to hang in there!

FOR PETES SAKE!!!!!!!!!
  Gina, Please do not feel the obligation to remember to Thank ME when you or anyone address my posts.  I would rather whatever you or anyone say come from your head/heart.  The last thing I would want someone to do is not write because of their fear of spelling or concern about ettiquette. Sometimes my head is so filled with thoughts that I am trying to get down on this site that I am lucky to remember how to type a sentance much less spell correctly or even add a thank you.  So anyway, please continue to keep me posted I may need your assistance on this some day!

Take Care,
Marcie.

[tom to Maryanne]

don't have any personal experience with buprenorphine out here in ole California because it can only be used for pain relief in this state. (and we consider "the coast" to be on the cutting edge?).

Everything I've heard and read indicates that buprenorphine is a fairly pleasant detox if done right. I remember Dan questioning it's effectiveness for treating really "heavy' habits, i.e., addicts coming down from high-dosage opiate or methadone habits.

I know the general routine is you wait til you're in withdrawal before starting the bup, and, if I'm not mistaken, inject the next bup ampoule in response to returning withdrawal symptoms, and so on and on.

--- aw, common, guys! who would want to miss out on those?  I mean, remember the all-body cold sweats, the abdominal cramps, muscle pains, and, of course, my personal favorite, the yellow-green diarrhea [actually a popular color in the 80's for painting backyard condo walls) that leaves your ass burning until, you guessed it, the next diarrhea attack [and you never had to wait too long for that one, did you?]

I get misty eyed with nostalgia and want to pick up my dog-eared copy of Naked Lunch and just start reading from any page. I recall a "chapter" about Burroughs going an entire month without a bowel movement in Morocco. That must have been inspiring.

Such fond memories. Can't imagine what I would have done with my life if I hadn't spent it chasing narcotics.

[To Tom and rest of forum from Maryanne]

ha ha  that's so funny Tom!!  I'm glad to hear it's relatively unpleasant instead of torturous.  I e mailed my brother today (he's been in AA/NA for about 15 years) and asked him if he knew anything about the Buprenex - his answer:  I think you should go cold - turkey and be miserable so you don't forget how bad it feels.  He has a good point except that the anxiety I feel during withdrawal is so severe that I feel like running up and down the street screaming at the top of my lungs and I can't breathe.  Not to mention the yawning, goosebumps, diarrhea, bone aches, insomnia, etc.  I tried tapering/cold turkey and that's what happened!  I just can't handle cold turkey.  I also need to work while going through this and I heard that while I will be uncomfortable, I should be able to function on the buprenex (buprenorphine).  God, I hate pills.  No. Yes. No. Yes, I hate them.  I cannot live like this anymore and don't want to die from taking them.  I can get whatever I want through this doctor so I'm going to cut that source off as soon as I go to Gooberman for the detox.  Thanks for letting me blab.  God Bless you All, Maryanne

[Brighty to Gina.. not negativity... jus]

Hi Gina... my beautiful daughter is also named Gina. She is addicted to heroin. She started in South Jersey and got her drugs in Philly. We just moved away this year. She has 9 months clean and just completed months of long term treatment here in Florida. We are very familiar with the doctor you mentioned. His son went to school with my daughter and also he detoxed some of her friends including her closest who happens to be his neice... small world isn't it ?? I have also heard that he is not permitted to do the rapid detox due to 8 deaths... of his over 2,000 (or more perhaps) patients that went through this procedure 8 died. He was on the TV show Investigative Reports and  they said he complied with the state medical board's request to discontinue the rapid detox.I thought the deaths were due to the patients having the naltrexone pellets under the skin and that they overdosed because of the blocking effects of the naltrexone. Some speculation exists that the deaths may be to the radical nature of the rapid detox itself...another person here posted recently that the doctor was going on trial for these deaths. I am sorry if this is true. My only reason for posting this is not because I am sure of anything... but because it may be a good idea to do some research on this procedure before you choose to undergo it.I would not support my daughter to have this done mainly because it seemed very expensive and with her relapse track record I felt it may be something that was short lived. I had not heard of the dangers or the deaths at the time.  I have heard that it is extremely dangerous and although detox is slept through, relapse possibilities are the same for anyone regardless of what type of detox they experience. Naltrexone does not prevent cravings or relapse.... it is simply a psychological barrier... the person knows they can't get high on opiates while taking this drug, so they possibly are psychologically not inclined to use. Many of those who have used on naltrexone ended up in the morgue. Please make an informed decision before you go for this procedure. I think buprenorphine may be the better choice. God bless you and may you find your healing. Love, Brighty

[Marryanne]

Brighty, I think you were talking to me (Maryanne) when you spoke of Dr. LG -  coincidentally, a forum corresponsent named Gina was also recently asking for some similar answers.  I would never go through rapid detox.  I am a nurse and I think that it is probably extremely hard on the body (too short a time to wipe it all out of your system) Not to mention that most addicts are probably not in the best of health which would be optimal for anesthesia.  I'm SO HAPPY for your daughter and for you!!  It's a long hard road to recovery and regardless of Gina (your Daughter's) track record, we can all only try our best to maintain a sober life.  I will definately be praying for her and hope she is able to abstain.  I know that the brief period I was sober last year was the best 3 months of my life since I started using!  I am going to go for the Buprenex (buprenorphine) detox!  The only thing is, I'm not sure if I should go to Dr. LG due to all the problems.  But I have to admit that the points you made about the 8 deaths make alot of sense....I just know that I don't want to die - and that means I have to get clean.  Thanks so much for your support!  Anyone else here ever detox on buprenorphine injects or pills or know anyone who did?  How long does it take?  Please, I need the input...                     God Bless, Maryanne

[Marryanne]

I thought I deleted my previous answer and basically tried to remember what I wrote and reposted it above - sorry...Maryanne

[Dee]

hello all...Brighty, I was so happy to read '9months clean'! you are a super mom who stood by her child all the way through,I know that most of us mom's would do the same thing, sad to say, there are some who are just not strong enough,So, a big applause to you..you deserve it..also, 9 months, where does the time go? to me, it just seems to be flying bye...may God hold you and Gina in his hands...
I do have a question to post......
any of you's that are on oxy's, whether you chew them or swallow them,does anyone get nightsweats? I have them terrible,sometimes 2 times a night,they are so bad I have to change,they have gotten worse in the last month,I was wondering if anyone that does oxy's has the same problem...Iam on alot of other meds,so it could be from one of them also....take care all....
PS
still nothing about Brian????

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

I have the same problem. I thought it was because I was pre menopausal (haha). I am told I am too young for that.  I change twice a night. It has got to the point where I actually keep a change of clothes by my bed.  I practically change in my sleep.  Sometimes it is accompanied by terrible chills.  I sleep on a heating pad too.  I thought that my be why I get the sweats but now I think otherwise.
Thanks for the post.  It is great to know I am not alone!
Marcie.

[tom to all about rapid detox]

what's the goddamn hurry anyway? All of us junkies know how bad withdrawal feels -- why would you want to subject your body to that experience concentrated into two hours of hell?
Remember, just because your conscious mind is put out of commission, don't believe for a minute that some part of your body/mind remembers every minute of the ordeal. I've heard terrible stories (you can find them on the net) told by surgical patients who felt every agonizing moment of their surgery but couldn't move or cry out. Not just a few stories, either.
Many medical professionals believe your mind is eventually forced to experience the trauma of surgery after the fact. The best anesthesiologists know this and have developed all sorts of techniques to stop the pain signals from ever reaching the mind. Someone who knows more about this please correct or clarify what I've said. But I think putting your body through two weeks of withdrawal in 2 hours is just plain nuts. By all means detox with the buprenorphine, it sounds great, but why risk going under anesthesia to begin with? General anesthesia in itself is a life threatening experience and every honest physician will tell you this. You risk your life every time you let your dentist put you on "twilight sleep" for god's sake.
My advice to you is detox nice and slow on buprenorphine (I think it's just a few days, anyway). Don't risk heart attack, toxic shock and stroke with this brutal rapid detox technique.

[to doc dan from joe]

The surgical pain that the people in your post experienced is slightly different than "post surgury memory".  When you go under the knife, the patient is given a curare type medicine to cause paralysis and another to block the pain and go to sleep.  Those people where not "a sleep" and fully consious during the surgury but the paralysis drug keep then from telling anyone they were still awake!  Frighting thought isn't it?

[Brighty to Tom]

Excellent post with lots of important information... and opinions that I happen to agree with :-)) .... Thanks so much. Love, Brighty

[Brighty to Joe... a question]

AAAAAAAArgh !!! Very horrifying... but I am a bit confused... this business of twilight sleep( medically called 'conscious sedation )... are you saying that they are feeling the pain but don't remember it... or that they feel the pain but can't do anything about it... or both ??? Is this also the case for general anesthesia ?? I have to have a little procedure..elective... and now I may elect to cancel it !!! I will not ever choose general if at all possible... any information is appreciated. Love, Brighty

[Brighty to Dee]

Thank you for all your kindness and support... it has been a long but worthwhile battle. If we hadn't fought this demon along with her she would be in the cemetery today. At least now she has the tools to work with and the desire as well. I am praying for you, Dee... your battle is just as hard. I am sorry I do not have information like others here who know how to help you...but we all offer what we do have. Healing is your spiritual birthright and I know you are claiming it. God bless you. Love, Brighty

[Brighty to MaryAnn]

I also responded to you in a thread above. I believe that the buprenorphine is the cutting edge as far as what I have read here for so many months. There seem to be many facets of addiction where it may be valuable... detox,maintenance and pain relief.... so I hope it gets available more easily so nobody is left out of the loop. I am moved by your candid and courageous posts here... there are many people who never post here but they read and look to those who post for information. Your situation is not that uncommon from the numbers here who are also nurses. I watched a 60 minutes or 20/20 special on addicted nurses a couple of years back and it was very revealing. I know there is a special support group for nurses in recovery. I will try to look it up for you if I can find it again. Maybe you already know about it. Please keep us up to date on yourself and your husband's progress. Everyone here is praying or sending you healing support in some way. Love, Brighty

[to doc dan from joe]

It was a topic on 20/20 or dateline (can't remember which) but the people were fully consious but immobile, they could feel the pain but not able to communicate that fact.  The problem was with  the anethesia, not putting them under at all.  Please talk with your doctor about it, I hate to see you not get needed help because of a slim chance of this happening.

[tom to Brighty]

love right back at you, my good friend. Peace and all good things for your daughter, too.

[Paul]

Hello All...I have been reviewing this forum n`ow and again but I now feel like posting.  Everyone on this board seems to have problems with vicodin and I wanted to share my experience.  I have very bad feet which cause me very very bad pain, so bad I can't walk at the end of the day sometimes.  So the doctor started me out on darvocet then tylenol #3's, then vicodin, then vicodin es, then percocet, then oxycontin.  So I have been taking oxycontin for 6 months, there really isn't a high like it, morphine is not as good, real opiates feel differnet then synthetic ones.  So it used to be 10mg twice a day, that didn't do much so I chewed it up, and now I a taking 50mg chewed up every 4 hours, usually 200mg a day. When I have ran out I have gone to numerous er's and urgent cares, but as we know we are all treated like lepars, but I usually got a couple days worth.  When that didn't work I would go to mexico (I live in Phoenix) and get my oxycontin although that involves alot of money and 4 hours of drive time.  Right now I am out and have been the last 24 hours, I am very tempted to jump in the car and fly down to mexico to get my stuff and blow the rent money, but you know how bad you want it.  I have been having panic attacks (I have a history) and I am seeing a doc tomorrow to get some valium.  The mental withdrawl is much worse then the physical.  Anyone have any advice?  I really don't want to get on methadone.

Good luck to you all,

Paul

[From Aunt Lindy to Mariah]

Hi Paul,
What a mess!  You will find alot of great friends on this site.  They will give you some great information.  Oxycontin can rock your world when you start to get out of hand with it.  It is not a kind drug when you run out. But you know that dont you!  I wanted to ask you (not that I am going to Mexico anytime soon) how did you get Oxy from Mexico?  I mean do they sell it in the Pharmacies somewhere? Or do you get it on the black market?  If you get it on the black market you be careful.  We dont want you showing up on a segment of DATELINE that you are in a Mexican prison.  So be careful! Did the ER's give you Oxy?  I can imagine that your panic attacks are even worse when you run out of your Oxy. Anyway, like I said you will get alot of great responses here. Hang in there.
Marcie.

[To Tom and rest of forum from Maryanne]

I hope you are not on your way to Mexico and this helps you.  I am detoxing from Percocet and Lorcet (Vicodin EES) on Friday morning with Buprenorphine treatment - if you read my above posts, you will find out more about the detox with this.  I hope it is available to you in your state.  If it's not then maybe you will be willing to drive to a neighboring state where it's available?  Anyway, I did some research for you - first I typed in "Arizona Substance Abuse" and got 214 website listings - the third one called "Substance Abuse Treatment Facility Locator - Simple Search" with the address: http://www.vicinity.com/smdi/startprx.hm  and then it asked me to put in city and state - when I put in Phoenix I got a listing of tons of treatment facilities within 100 miles of you - you can call them and ask if they offer the buprenorphine (Buprenex) - if they do, then you are in luck.  Anyway, this will get you through withdrawal fairly easy from what I've read. It costs 270.00 here in NJ. Good luck with whatever you decide!   Maryanne