What is this doing to my liver?

[tarnabee]

I take anwhere from 15 to 25 vics a day and have been doing so on and off for a few years now.  Can anyone tell me what this is doing to my liver, all the acetominophen I am injesting?

[avisg]

ANYONE WITH ADDICTION PROBLEMS OR ANYONE THAT HAS BEEN EFFECTED BY ADDICTION IS WELCOME ON THIS FORUM.Yes you can be damaging your liver .liver toxicty can be fatal plz get help ASAP .

[mr.lucky66]

your liver does flip flops when you take vicodin. Such  little narcotic but a toxic hit of tylenol for the liver.

[bluespence]

I will make this short, I don't look for posts to refute anything..I have been on this forum for a very long time and I have offered a lot of support, advice to many people. I am not defensive either, why can't I defend my words without it being perceived as something negative. You and some others have been judgmental and accusatory which is frustrating to those who need to hear other things. Just like everyone else on here, I struggle with pills and for now choose to continue to take the pills and there have been many times where I have posted things only to get jumped on and accused of trying to beat they system or find ways to get pills in the wrong manner (which none of it was true). But for me, I continue to come here because I know at some point I need to get off the pills and find other ways to deal with my chronic pain. I have been honest about my usage, about being addicted about enjoying the high, etc...but I have also been honest about not being ready to quit for a slew of other reasons. But reading these stories and hearing what others have to say is very motivating and insightful and just because I am not ready to quit doesn't make me a bad person...so I think we all need to meet people where they are and work from there. Telling someone that they just need to quit or pointing out that they are doing something illegal seems pointless to me because I am sure they already know that. Many people feel bad or guilty because they can't quit as easily as others so when they come on here and are vulnerable but then get told a bunch of negative things, why would they want to come back. All I am saying is this addiction thing is a process and a journey for each of us and we all deal with it differently and just b/c something worked for you does not mean it will work for another. So just because someone brings up something that is illegal or a bad decision or whatever, we need to be supportive (not if the illegal actions) but of the individual. Everyone wants to be accepted, so maybe get more info before accusing so that no one has to feel they are being judged or like the original poster stated to you "lectured" because you made an assumption that was incorrect. Good luck to you an everyone on this site...we all need it!

[Htownnofrown]

No need to get so defensive, I'm try to answer the questions that are asked. What you do is your business, but I'm kind of concerned you surf the board to refute what others say and don't even address the original question. You seem to be set in your way, so I won't even try to talk you out of it.

I admit I did jump to the conclusion that Tarnabee wanted to get off the pills, and for that I apologize. I'd like to see you support your words in showing me when I accused anyone of anything. I was simply saying that illegal methods of using drugs is not the answer, but who am I to say. Encouraging someone to misuse drugs and break the law hardly sounds like the info and support I'd want.

No, it was not easy to get off of them, (sounds a little judgemental, doesn't it?) and you made the point of 'Sometimes people just want answers now...just want to hear what others have to say', that's why I gave my opinion even though I'm not a MD. I know this forum can be a stress relief, but instead of instigating and provoking nonconstructive conversation, maybe a punching bag would do.

[bluespence]

Since you are not a Dr, then I don't understand why you are giving out medical advice. Secondly, pain mgmt Drs ARE Doctors, just because you may know of pain magt dr throwing out narcs like candy does not mean they all do...I know mine doesn't. My point was not to get into the details of CWE, but to point out that this forum is supposed to be for info and support, not accussing people and judging and that is exactly what you did. Just because you take meds as prescribed does not mean you won't get liver damage. Also, just because it seems apparent to you to just call the Dr and ask all these questions doesn't mean that it comes that easily to all people. Besides, how easy is it to actually talk to a doctor when you just have a simple question. Sometimes people just want answers now w/o waiting and some people just want to hear what others have to say to give them more to think about. There are ways to give info w/o coming across as judgemental but obviously you haven't learned how to do that. We all know we should get off the narcs, but knowing and doing are two different things...maybe it was easy for you to get off of them, but again everybody is not the same...I hope this opens your mind a little to another perspective different than yours.

[Htownnofrown]

I cant give you much medical information without dosage, frequency and other intangibles. 25 a day is a lot, assuming its the minimal dosage of 325mg APAP, that comes to over 8,000mg a day, twice the recommended limit. Here's something I read online:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.medicinenet.com/acetaminophen/article.htm&ei=ZH9mSZ-0NZWksAORvcmZAw&usg=AFQjCNF-KQgDgjUkXwAZ0ag9_l1xhRbU8A

It says pretty much like I said earlier, if your doing what your doctor says, there should be very little chance for negative side effects. If, however, you are taking more than 4,000mgs daily for an extended period of time, there's a chance you may inherit hepatoxicity as a result. It's hard to know specifically how much damage it does because everybody's liver metabolizes differently.

No one is here to lecture you, just to give whatever support we know how. Since you know you need to get off them I hope you are able to eventually and find an alternative means to ease your pain. Best advice, ask a real doctor because hepatic metabloism is hard for us non-Dr. people to estimate.

[tarnabee]

All I wanted was information if anyone had any because I was curious.  I know I need to get off them, I know I am addicted.  I didn't join this forum to be lectured to about my intentions.  Someone should be able to post a question with honest intentions without being second guessed by others.  I was looking for a site that would offer support for quiting the addiction along with perhaps giving information, knowledge, etc.  I

started taking the meds for pain relief.  I keep taking them for pain relief.  I know I am addicted, but I also know I need something to help with the pain.  I have worked with my doctor on alternative methods to heal me, but nothing has worked.  Unfortunently, my addiction grew from my need for relief, as probably many many others experience.  I was just curious about the effects of APAP on the liver as I keep reading about how it's harmful, but no real medical info is given.  

[Htownnofrown]

By mere definition and legality, CWE is ABUSING and not something a doctor would ever recommend. I'm not passing judegement, I took 15 a day when I had no reason to, and I feel like I was lucky to not have liver/kidney damage from it.

My main concern is, if a person is using the medication the way their doctor has suggested, they should have minimal negative effects on the liver. If the person then feels like he/she may be doing damage to the liver, they should contact their doctor with those concerns, something I would assume would be a simple task if they have a prescribing doctor and not just a pain clinic that tosses out pills like candy. And are we forgetting that using narcotics in a way other than directed (Snorting, CWE) is illegal and dangerous.

I understand some people need pain medication, I am not naive, but I would just hope that a person would turn to more legal/intelligent choices such as talking to their Dr. about lowering APAP dosage, Increasing hydrocodone dosage, or switching meds to one less damaging to the liver when taken in such large doses. FDA recommends only 4,000mg's of APAP a day, and I have a hard time believing a physician (not pain clinic) would prescribe something higher than that, due to their oath.

Hope this clears things up for you and anyone else.

[bluespence]

The thing you are forgetting is some people need to be on pain meds for a long time. What is wrong with trying to help someone avoid harm?? The original poster didn't give enough info to determine if he is trying to get off of them or trying to protect his liver. Too many people on this post jump to conclusions and judge people without having all the facts. Onthefence didn't say he was trying to give the poster a way to continue to take more drugs he stated he was trying to avoid harm. Again keep in mind that not everyone is getting off the meds some are trying not to abuse the drugs, but as I stated in another post why does it matter if we get off topic sometimes if we are helping people. Using judgement isn't appealing and that is why a lot of people leave and find new forums.

[Htownnofrown]

This forum is focused on addiction and substance abuse and the best ways to fix them. Damaging your liver or other physical debilitation is a side affect of addiction to pills, not the main problem. You say you are for harm reduction; then you are not for recovering from addiction. Maybe in your life you were able to make the distinction between the two and chose accordingly, but if you chose CWE, you did nothing to heal yourself from addiction. It is the hydrocodone in these pills that is addictive, not the APAP, and to suggest that people are wrong for looking down upon people posting ADDICTIVE/ILLEGAL behavior as a way to minimize negative side effects is just crazy. Maybe it is best that you found different forums, maybe something like 'How do I keep my addiction without destroying my body' is the right place to post things such as CWE. People need to know what the biggest problem is, and that is the emotional/pyschological dependency of these drugs. In time, a liver can regenerate, but it takes clean time from the APAP. Your mind, however, will only heal from long term stoppage of use of opiods, and the recovery care that goes along with it.

The best advice to Tarnabee is to do whatever you can to stop taking the pills. Inpatient/Outpatient/Tapering/ColdTurkey, whatever it takes for you to get control of your life, more control than just planning how many to take at the next available time.

[bgrimes86]

It's killing you. Period.

All the best,

Ben

[kjbriggsy]

when i went to rehab the doctor told me that for every 6 months of abuse you are aging your liver 6 years. the liver can rejuvinate itself with a lot of clean time, but it also depends on the person, their diet, their lifestyle, etc. do you have any plans on stopping? all those hydros will eventually kill you and if its been years they already are in the process. you can get a reality of this by getting a liver enzyme test and an mri of your gastro. its not just your liver you need to worry about either. those pills do serious damage. even if we have no symptons we are aware of, these things have a way of popping up unexpected. hope your planning to take the control back.... there are a lot of people here that are very knowledgable and have been in your shoes. it can really help. good luck.