repost same methadone detox question

[Foxlight]

Ok, I was cut off of methadone, last dose sunday at 25mg, I dropped to that in about two weeks from around 80.  It was rough but I managed it.  Now I'm on vikes and clonodine and it is wed.  The withdrawals are nowhere near as bad as I had suffered previously by missing two days at 80mg.  At that time, I got back on the methadone after just 2 days off and it took me a whole week to stabilize.  Question is, is this going to get worse?  Or is this it?  I mean, this dr is going to give me subutex then suboxone monday, but do I really even need it after a whole week off?  And are the vikes postponing the severe withdrawals are am I healing and adjusting even now?  Thanks anyone who responds to this.

[notmenow!]

I have recently received valuable information from The National Alliance for Buprenorphine Treatment
I will give you info on transitioning from methadone to subutex/suboxone. It us recommended that patients transitioning from methadone to buprenorphine slowly taper to 30mg per day for at least one week. Last dose must be no less than 36h prior to induction and may be 96 hrs or more A minimal score of 5 on the COWS is recommended although some physicians prefer a score of 15 or higher.
Patients transitioning from methadone or another long acting opiate to buprenorphine may experience discomfort for several days and dysphoria for up to 2 weeks.
The goal of induction is to safely suppress opiate withdrawal as rapidly as possible with adequate doses of buprenorphine. Failure to do so may cause patients to use opiates or other medications to alleviate opiate withdrawal symptoms if may lead to early treatment dropout. To achieve this some physicians have  found they need to dose as high as 32mgs,the first day with some methadone to Buprenorphine transfers. COWS stands for Clinical Opiate Withdrawal Score. The #'s range
from 5-6=mild w/d, 13-24=moderate w/d, 25-36= moderately severe, 36 and over indicates severe withdrawals. I have not completed watching the CD that came with the literature. Hope I helped
and not confused you but it is fact according to the above mentioned organization--------NOAH

[FLaddict]

Did you start Subutex today??  I thought it was today..

[Foxlight]

nope, my doc didn't believe I was off of the addies so she made me take a ua and I have to come in tomorrow (tuesday)  She gave me more vics of course but I honestly can get through the w/d's of vics overnight and sleep through it.  I quit for 18 hours last night and when I woke up I was scared, but once I started heading to the sub clinic I felt good here and there.  This methadone isn't giving me much problems physically anymore, cept for some aches and pains in my back.  Just mentally I'm drained, hard to be happy and harder yet not to be nervous or even scared.  To make it even funnier, the clinic called with the results to my UA and I missed the call, lol.  I wonder how fast someone could heal from methadone after being on it 18 months, is it possible to get to square one in 2 weeks?  If I do take the subutex, I'll taper as soon as my 4th day, cause I want to be clean all the way, I'm afraid of being chained to pills any longer.  

[willruthie1965]

How you doing.Good job on the methadone.Vicodin was so  easy to quit compared to methadone.HAve you decided what you were going to do?  Ruthie

[Foxlight]

well, I guess I know I need to get off the vikes.  12-18 hours should be enough?  Just a little while ago, maybe an hour, I actually felt happy for the first time in like 5-6 days.  It was brief, few moments but it was so great.  I am honestly thinking of not take subutex at all but I know once I quit the vikes I'll be sick again.  such hard decisions.

[wait2long]

if you are still taking the vikes right up until your doctors appointment , then yes you will suffer, that is why we are telling you to stop taking the vikes on sunday, then you will avoid the precipitated withdrawals...

[eliminnopee]

  I understand why people say sub makes you withdrawal worse, however that has been totally the opposite for me.  You must, must wait until you are in mild to moderate withdrawal before you take it or you WILL go into instant withdrawal.  You shouldn't be too worried about the sub, basically the feeling I got from it wasn't a high, but I had NO withdrawal symptoms while using it.  I also had absolutely no desire to go searching for my doc. Yes you will be able to sleep fine eventually.  The more things you do throughout the day the more rest you will get.  I am planning a vigorous workout schedule on top of my daily activities to help wear me down.  Try       L-theanine      I have used that for the past few days and it has helped tremendously with falling to sleep.  Another good way to fall asleep is to walk yourself through a story in your mind.  For example, I imagine driving up to my dreamhouse, getting out of the car and going inside, I imagine what it looks like on the inside as if I am walking through it.  Helps me anyway.

[Foxlight]

called my dr to make sure what I would be doing monday, subutex.  will I go into withdrawals from it?  because of the vics?

[Foxlight]

will i ever be able to sleep normally again?  because I heard that I probably will have permant trouble with that?  I've heard a few cases where people say suboxone isn't too hard to get off of if you taper but if both subutex and suboxone are going to make me withdraw worse, thats good reason to not even start, eh?  thanks for your words, I wanted to hear something good but the truth is even more important

[eliminnopee]

  I still think that the sub would help you, because the withdrawal from methadone is such a long process.  The sub helps mask, if you will, the symptoms and is much easier to taper off of.  If that is an option you might want to really check it out with your Dr.

[wait2long]

well hun, thats up to you, and i cant tell you if it will help or not, all i can do is tell you about the methadone from firsthand experience...you are looking at at the very least 3-4 weeks of feeling the way you do...you may be feeling a slight bit better from the vikes...

[Foxlight]

I'm going either way but I haven't decided what I will do once I go.  I'm really afraid of a new drug.  really afraid, and now I'm even more afraid because it might get worse.  I do feel like I've gotten a slight bit better today.   maybe I should taper off the vics.  only been on them since monday.

[wait2long]

honestly hun...my guess would be you may be worse off, because you may be withdrawing from 2 drugs not just 1?  but i cant answer that as truth...have you decided if you are going to go to the doctors on monday?

[Foxlight]

my withdrawals have been getting worse each day, and to be honest, I feel a tiny bit better today then I did last night.  My skin was burning and I awoke today with some nasty diarehea.  I would rather try to quit vics any day over methadone but I do feel I'm postponing my healing.  I'd like to think you were wrong and that I AM healing a little, but even under the best possible circumstances, I'm not healing as fast as I would have otherwise.  Even if you are right, the fear I have is overwhelming at times, thinking of how long I have to stay like this and how hard it is to sleep or even sit comfortabley.  I down dosed way to fast, in my head, the vics are just another way to slowly ween myself.  Is that a bad thing?  And monday, I'll be out of vics or close to, will I withdraw even worse then I am now?  Or will it be of lesser extent?  Any help on this would be wonderful.
scared2faceREALITY

[Savas]

The only reason I recall for different forms of suboxone in dealing with I.V. drug users is that one version is "mixed" so that it can't be injected. Otherwise, in ANY form, it's addictive. Unless some new non-addictive miracle form of suboxone just came out I'm not aware of.

Of course, they claimed it was a miracle in it's original form a decade ago when buphenorphine came out...and it turned out it wasn't...so I'd be skeptical.

I didn't catch if this was said...but if you're taking vic's while taking clonidine and the like, you aren't doing any healing process exactly, you're just substituting.

Now, technically, if you took it for six months...it COULD have a positive effect in the form of getting the methadone out of your system. But...I think the grief caused by taking vic's long term would ruin any positive effect.

As to panic attacks...
USUALLY, it's an underlying psychological issue that's coming out from stopping drugs. I had them for months to a minor degree (well, not according to my wife, she thinks it was major, but I disagree. Maybe. :) ), and it took ALOT of self reflection and emotional suffering to work through them.

I'm not saying there isn't a physical effect setting it off (there is), but it's something you CAN learn to cope with without taking med's for it. You have to just keep reminding yourself it's a physical reaction setting it off and watch out for blood pressure spiking, which can definitely cause a panic attack to start..

[Foxlight]

how long does the panic symptom of withdrawal last from methadone.  the rest of my stats are on one of the above posts.  I could really use help with that one.

[Foxlight]

my dr explained to me that subutex would not give me withdrawals, if I chose that route, I'll be using that drug for two weeks then going to suboxone.  I have been lied to by dr's before, but I was told that subutex does NOT have that drug in it, it's very intention is to be a transfer drug.  I'm not an expert, so I would look it up before you assume either I or FLaddict is giving correct data.  i was not an IV user so I'm not sure why my dr would use this approach.  Dr. Dennison actually headed the research on suboxone in Chicago before it was legalized and when I moved up into the boonies of WI I lucked out and got her.  From what I hear, I could have 3 more days of worsening withdrawals?  Correct?  But could it be that I could have only 5 or 6, maybe less?  Or is it a for sure 7 or better?  I am damn scared of this getting worse then it is because  it is slowly wearing away my confidence.  I was watching tv and this lady had got killed and I started crying right in my inlaws frontroom.  Tell me that isn't embarrasing.  Thanks for all the posts everyone.  

[wait2long]

is that the only difference between suboxone and subutex???  why would one get prescribed to somebody over the other?  unless they were I.V. drug users, i get that part...

[eliminnopee]

   You sound so so similiar to myself, in that we were taking the same amount of methadone and lowered very rapidly.  I am suprised that you even feel any effects from the hydro.  Anyway A little of my own history may help you a bit.  I started on methadone to quit hydros, 10-10mgs a day.  I started at 40 and eventually was at 80mgs a day.  I did that for almost a yr. and decided I really didn't like the way it had changed me mentally and started to physically (gained 10 lbs and heard that I would just keep gaining as long as I used, dunno if that's true but didn't want to risk anymore of my health).  I decided to quit and wanted to make it as manageable as possible.  I went to 60 mgs for a week, then to 50mgs, then 40 for a week, and so on until I got to 20.  It was a bit harder to go lower from there, so I did this (worked great for me)  4 days of 10mgs, 2 days of 20 mgs and one day of nothing for one month.  I may have taken say a 10 on Mon., a 10 on Tues., Wed. a 20, Thurs. a 10, Fri. a 10, nothing on Sat., and a 20 on Sun.  I did this for a month, maybe 5 weeks.  Then I started a very fast taper of the suboxone.  I did 4 days of 4mgs (half an 8mg tablet), 3 days of 2mgs (1/4 a pill) and then stopped completely.  It has worked extremely, extremely well for me... no real bad withdrawals at all!!  However, if you want to get off of everything, you need to consider the amount of methadone you have tapered to.  In my case it was very low.  I suggest that if you can, if not, you may try this 4 days at 8mgs, 4 at 6mgs, 4 at 4mgs, 4 at 2mgs, and even lower if you feel the need from there.  Really all I used the suboxone for was to mask the acute withdrawal synptoms that the methadone created.  I tried to use it long enough to get out of the woods on that front , while not getting physically and mentally dependent on the sub.  Everyone is different, while this has worked wonders for me it might not for someone with different chemistry.  It is definitely, definitely, worth trying.  Because if it works this great for you also it's almost like getting a free pass.  When you stop the subs, don't expect it to be withdrawal free.  You will have some very mild ones, but it is light years away from the agony of full onset acute withdrawals!  GOOD LUCK!!  I, along with everyone else are here, support you in whatever you decide is the right vehicle for your recovery.

[FLaddict]

No buprenorphine itself is what can put you into withdrawals NOT the naloxone in suboxone.. the naloxone is only to deter people from shooting it up.. so either subutex or suboxone can cause precipitated withdrawals.

[Foxlight]

thank you everyone for your support.  Really the subutex is the half of suboxone that helps with withdrawals, it's basically the same drug with out the part that sends you into withdrawals.  from what everyone is saying, I SHOULD get on suboxone but you know, I really don't want to get into another situation like I did on methadone.  I did not sleep last night.  When I was at 80 I once missed a weekend and I swear it terrified me.  This isn't so bad now considering.  But I am having leg tremors now, back aches, sleep trouble and mild anxiety.  30 days!  God help me.  When the withdrawals do peak, which I believe they are near, how long will that last.  This will be my last question this string and I do thank everyone who responded.  And Ruthie, we are mere hours away from each other in this and I wish you the best of luck.

[wait2long]

i was on methadone for 9 months, stayed on 20 mgs daily...when i transitioned from the meth to the sub they asked me to be in mid-withdrawals...i waited 5 full days for the withdrawals to even start, on the 5th day i took my first dose of suboxone and it sent me through the roof with precipitated withdrawals...2-3 days isnt even enough time to be in withdrawals yet, you were on a much higher dose just 2 weeks ago, right?  i would really make sure you are good and sick before you take that first dose of sub...the longer you are on the methadone, the longer it may take for your withdrawals to even start, and the severity will depend on the dose.  and short term sub use may not work for you either, you may need to be on the sub for at least 4-6 weeks...it takes 30+days for the methadone to be cleared from your system, so withdrawals can last 30+ days, it took 5 weeks for me to get the full benefits from the suboxone...if you have any questions, just ask hun...my e-mail address is in my profile, if there is anything i can do to help...let me know...

and yes the vikes are just masking your withdrawals, if you plan on taking the suboxone on monday, then you need to stop everything now...but something i didnt think about is the subutex....that may be a better option for you, ask your doctor and just make sure you are honest with him about what you have been taking and when you last took it and what the last dose was...ok?  i dont know much about subutex...but maybe if you put up a post about it someone will be able to help you with that...good luck hun...

[willruthie1965]

I would wait and see how you feel monday.You can always call the doctor if you need too.I am having less trouble with no mthadone this time around.Grant it it;sonly 36 hours but by the  time I  wake up in the morning it willbe 2 full days.Last time I got sick after 24 hours and no amount of vicodin helped.Ifear methadone withdrawals.I would feel like I can do anything ,if I can quit this methadone.Iemail me if you want to discuss.Ruthie

[FLaddict]

Methadone withdrawals can last several weeks, you are day 3 today without it.. I am concerned with you switching to Sub after on 2 weeks at 25 mgs.. they usually want you to be down that low for a month or two  before switching.. and sometimes methadone withdrawals can take over 4 days to fully kick it.. I would still plan on getting on Sub based on your use, the vics could be masking some of the methadone withdrawals, or they haven't hit fully yet. or both..