subutex

I tapered off methadone (slowly)which I had been on for over 15 years,when I got down to zero after a couple of weeks of still being very sick I decided to go on subutex.  I take on an average of 6 mg. a day. Doctor prescribed 6mg. to 8mg. a day. So far I have felt great, no more withdrawal symptoms, and I feel normal a sense of "well being". Not sedated as I did when I was on methadone. My question is: How long should I stay on? I am also a chronic pain patient (arthritis) and I am currently on predensone for a short time. So this is also helping with my pain issue. The physician told me that I can stay on indefinietly or come off after a short period when I think that the most of the methadone is out of my system. I have heard it can take months before your body is rid of methadone, esp. being on it for so many years.  Thanks for your input.

Sharon

[pammy0690]

According to a doctor friend of mine who is licenced to prescribe sub says that length of time on realy varies.  There is no right or wrong or end times.  It depends on the years of opiete dependence.  I would think in your situation you would need to stay on it for a few months.  Let you body and brain heal then use a taper to ease off the sub nice and slow.  You are on a nice low dose but enough to do the job. Congratulations! Pam

[mrmichael67]

Just like the doc said, you can stay on indefinitely or for a short time.  If it helps with your pain, why go off of it?  I would say it goes on a case by case basis.  There isn't any time frame that is universally appropriate in which to be on any narcotic for pain or whatever.  With buprenorphine's profile and its efficacy in your case, I would say it is a perfect fit for you.  As far as the methadone being out of your system, I would give it a couple of months.  It doesn't take that long, but I would imagine there is more to consider than just the chemical being out of your system.  I am sure your body would need time to rebound back, even with being on the buprenorphine.  I would let the buprenorphine work for at least two to three months to help your body get used to not having methadone in it.  Then, gradually get off the Subutex...if that is what you must do.  But, I would seriously consider your pain control needs, if I were you.

[skipper]

Sharon:
if i were you i'ld take it nice and slow....get really stable at the 6-8/day dose. what's the hurry? bup is addictive, but it sounds as if you have put your time in with gut shredding wd....and besides you did say something about pain issues...if the bup is good at controling the pain, you may choose to stay with it. i get no pain control from bup...just reief from wd's. my expierence with bup has been the less the beter...but that's just me. in high doses bup can be real wierd stuff...but if your doing well with it, who could argue against you taking your time?
keep an angle on your shoulder
kip

[sharonver]

Hi Pam...

Thanks, yea, I finally did it, was so tired of the whole methadone scene!!! If I had known way back then I might not have even gotten on.  I am not knocking it by no means, it has helped save many lives. But I think in my sitiuation I could have done it without it. But back then they put you on a high dose then they leave you there.  I did not stay on the high dose though, even though most did choose to stay on that dose.  The highest I was on was 65 the first few years, then down to 30 for most of the rest. The last 2 years I slowly detoxed and I am finally off for good!!!  And I feel great!! I know I will need at least a few months to let my body heal, so I guess I will just take it one day at a time, but if I do end up by staying on at least I can get a script from a doctors office once a month and not have to have all of the clinic environment, rules and the feeling of being imprisoned there. I am glad and relieved to be out of the whole environment.  Life is looking good....
Thanks for responding...
Sharon

[sharonver]

Thanks for replying back,

Yes, I guess I am lucky that  I was able to get on this med and have it work so well for me. I am in no hurry to get off because it is helping me with both issues. So far my opinion is that I think that this med is going to help a lot of people. And I am grateful that I found it.

Sharon

[skipper]

sharon:
i had no idea you were getting your methadon the clinic route! a special congradulatios is in order. my only expierence with methadone was the clinic route....and i couldn't do it! in the late '60's in the Mpls area al one had to do was walk in off the street and be willing to turn over practically every decision you would ever make to some a**hole counselor for the rest of your life. i've lost many friends to the clinic's over the years...most are dead of self inflicted gunshots...so all of us (and you) have so much to be
gratfull for. i for one, can say, i did not wait in line at some clinic, to be treated like a subnormal child. stick with your doc and the bup...many of us will pray for you!
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[Inmytree]

You continue to amaze me w/ your knowledge of oipiates. My guess is that you were/are one hell of a drug addict. You are so useful to this forum it is scary. I thought I knew alot but you have it down to friggin MOLECULAR manifestation for Gods sake.. Kudos. Opiates for 500 Alex...

[terter]

I missed a day of posts and tried to catch up with the readings, so forgive me if I got the names of you wrong, I started Bup. on weds. The doc I found also runs Beacon house a narc & alcohol center. I was relieved b/c I would think he knows what he's doing. He has me taking a compound lozenge 6mg 4 times a day for first week then 3 a day the next week then I see him again. I feel like I use to before the pills which I forgot how that was. I quit a 20 a day hydro habit on 5/11 and tappered w/Darvocet n 100, Which worked great as far as w/d go, I had only a couple nites w/no sleep no runs, just low energy and a lil depression, I can't believe I started taking them again. I got scared about being sick and after someone here told me how to find a doc who prescribed Bup. I know I will have tough days ahead and will seek long term help to help with cravings. The best news about this is, My friend was lieing to me about not taking anything since 5/11 we were going to do this together of course I could see right through her she would tell me I've only taken one pill today and still be up and running with house work ect... I finally confronted her and said your talking to someone who's done this many times she then confessed to not stopping, I told her I understood thats when my weakness came I asked for some (Damn it) well I went to my appt: told her about my doc, she had an appt that day with our pill doc to get 180 norco b/c she was out of pills, The pill doc canceled on her and she was freaking out, thats when I told her to see the bup doc and shes there this morning. I will not confront her again, I will be there for her like she is for me but I don't want to know if she has any. Does any one know what I can expect when I start lowering my dosage? Is it the same as tappering off Hydro? Thanks Ter

[tobie]

I can't seem to find a Dr. willing to prescribe bup.I 've been to 2 addictionologist and had no luck.Any advice?Iwas on about 200-250mgs of oxy so I can't understand why they want prescribe it.    Thanks-tobie

[doner]

Does anyone else live in a state where NOT ONE dr. is certified to prescribe bup? I cant belive it. Not one doctor. I called the nearest rehab center to where I live and no dr. had even heard of it. They actually asked me how to spell it. I dont even know what else to say I am furious.   Doner

[percsnomas]

Don't know if this is of any help???

Buprenorphine - Subutex - Suboxone
Physician Locator - A direcotry of physicians that offer Buprenorphine Treatment.
.....found at
www.atwatchdog.org

[vikequeen]

I have about 5 in my state and called all of them and you know what? NOT ONE called me back-HOW RUDE! I could not believe it, they are only authorized to have 30 patients at any given time but you would think they would give commom courtsey and at least say they were full. I continue to be discoraged about this drug, for me and getting it , it has become a mission. Baddgirl

[doner]

Thanks so much for taking the time to look into it for me. Someone else also offered the site and it listed no docs anywhere even close to here. I live in Michigan. I cant imagine any of you have even noticed this crappy little state at the top of the map but there are two parts to Michigan. Upper and Lower.Im in the upper part. It is VERY small.There are alot of docs in Lower Michigan that are qualified but it would be a shorter drive to go to another state.No matter which direction Im looking I would have to drive 5-8 hours to get to a doc certified to prescribe bup. The whole situation just blows, I thought the bup. might be my ticket to kick this depression. Thanks again for actually going through the motions of trying to help.It is much appreciated and wont be forgotten. Doner

[terter]

I found it with help here on  http://buprenorphine.Samhsa.gov/bwns_locator/index.html if you have trouble with that try Samhsa.gov and in the search put buprenorphine-- thats what I did and got tons of docs in Calif. Bay area. The first doc I called took me in the next day, best of all my insurance took it as a medical visit, This doc is going to address my pain issue also. Hope this helps -Terri

[mrmichael67]

I emailed her the list from michigan and wisconsin from that locator.  Unfortunately, she has a long drive to get to the closest one to her.  Michigan had 33 docs all in the lower portion.  There has to be SOMEONE up there.  I will keep on plugging away for you, doner.

[skipper]

badgirl:
your post in this thread came close to tearing up my heart and then caving in my chest...it's not just your lack of access to bup...you very much desearve it...

i've had a very bad afternoon and i doubt i can put into words what is going on wth me...see i've just gotten a good job after going all winter without...i should be happy...but what is happiness to a junky???a few extra mmgs. of our favorite poision?? see my years put in as a junky have not gotten me much, except for extream mistrust in happiness...

but enough of my bad afternoon...i'm just sick into my own heart, hurting the people  i love the most...i do not trust happiness!!

for what it's worth, tonight i will pray that you and i and people like us will recieve not what we want, but what we need. i'm sorry
i don't have any answers for you or me or anyone else tonight...i just do not trust happiness...
keep an angel on your shoulder...and pray to want the things you need!
kip

[oxic]

As MrMichael said, we'll keep hunting!!!

percs

[bmac]

Man, I know how that 'happiness' **** can be. Yeah Right!
You seem to always come through though bro, so just hang in, you'll make it there, wherever 'there' is for you! Peace! Bill

[bmac]

Ya'll have hunting dogs too?  Man, what a country!

[doner]

To all of you that are trying to find a doc to prescribe bup.THANK YOU I love you guys so much.I called the largest hospital in the UP that has the only opiate rehab up here.I asked if there was a dr. in the UP certified in presribing bup. First thing she said was "what". I repeated myself,then she asked me how to SPELL it and put me on hold.She came back 4 minutes later and asked me if I knew what it was used for. I told her it was a new drug used to help opiate addicts staighten out.I got put on hold again and she came back and said "Im sorry ma'am, we dont have any information on that drug. I almost hit the floor. How can an opiate rehab center know nothing about this? Makes me nervous for the safety of my kids that the drs. here are so behind in recent medical advances.It makes me feel like packing right now.Thanks for looking and for listening. I would do anything to repay you all for what you've done for me.Thanks so much,sleep well,Melissa

[vikequeen]

Its so sad that some people have no clue Docs I mean, yes I am an addict but before that I was a worthwhile person, I wish the people holding back this med could see, I used to be an ins agent with Allstate, I am married mother of 2 still cute after all these years, I have tons of friends great family but I just can't kick this demon. Its the hardest thing in my life, but I am gonna try. Tomorrow I am going to my PCP and telling him everything. I will go to GNC and get the meds too, I just can't let my husband or family know because in Feb I came out of a nine day detox inpatient and I was told by all this is it-NO MORE! I can't lose my husband. I plan on being free, healthy and not sick by July 4th.  You know whats the worst about my addiction? besides taking my soul it took my smarts, I used to write I had passion about things, I took the state ins exam which is not easy and passed 11 yrs ago now to even open the book,
It's like written in another language. anyway you all are in my heart, I know I seem like an uncaring ditz sometimes but thats my addiction, I used to be smart and witty lol Love Badd

[bmac]

Hey why don't you copying your last posts and save it and in a month re read it back to me. If you wanna get better you will Doll. I told my PCP everything too. It really didn't help my addiction but he gave me meds that made the physical part a hell of a lot better. Phenobarb and clonidine. When I started taking them my withdrawals stop completely and all I was left with was the brainfog, I hated that part the worst.
OK, do not loose you family, since it is that important, go do the right thing on Monday, get REAL help. You can't get this **** out of your system until you stop putting it in. Bill

[terter]

Wanted to let you know what I found out about Bup and why here in Calif. anyway docs don't know about it.  I had the same problem when I asked about it, How do you spell it? I never heard of it. The doc explained it by saying not all docs can perscribe it so they don't know what it is. When you get the bup. It's hard to find a pharmacy that fills it, The doc knew where I could get it filled only 2 pharmacies in my general area, the reason for that is, It's a compound that needs to be made. After taking it for 1 1/2 days I went back to the pharmacy to get a voucher for my insurance to pay and while waiting My son took his blood pressure on the machines they have it was normal then I took mine twice and it was 82/62 way low, I went and took it again the next day and it was 100/72 but I feel fine, When I called a phamacy close to me about what I was taking. The Pharmasist never heard of Bup. But he said I should be feeling dizzy if my blood pressure was that low. Since I refuse to go to a doc in the box my husband whos a fire chief will take it when he gets home. Then I'll call the doc who gave it to me if it's still low on Monday since nobody else knows what it is.  Terri

[mrmichael67]

You are a worthwhile person now.  Please don't think like that.

[mrmichael67]

I would imagine you were repeating what the pharmacist said when you stated bup has to be compounded?  That is one way to get it in a troche.  A troche is a gelatin like sublingual prep made in a compounding pharmacy.  But, Subutex and Suboxone aren't compounded.

[mrmichael67]

Any pharmacy can order Subutex or Suboxone.  If you call 1-800-444-7599, it will put you through to a rep for Renkitt Benckiser.  I am not sure which rep it is, but it is one of them.  I have called it before and just as recently as three days ago to verify Subutex being released.  It was as of early April, by the way.  I am sure they can give you any info you might need.

[terter]

Yes I was repeating what he told me, and you are correct!!! Amazing you always are.... Anyway I didn't mean it was the only type available just it was what I got. I think someone said theres an injectable form butonex (I think)and I'm sure more. I was told by the doc that he gives the gelaten form to be mixed to the patients needs and It gets you outta the habit of taking a pill to feel better. Which I didnt understand because he gave me pills non-narcotic anyway for the pain, which don't work one bit. The bup helps with the minor discomfort but not the bad stuff i have occasionally. Also I have another ques. for you, The bup seems to take a while in the morning to hit (hours)by then I have taken my second dose and that seems to kick in. Is that the way it works?? What will happen if someone takes vics while on bup. A friend wants to pick up a refill and she just started bup yesterday. Thank you for all your knowledge- Terri

[doner]

Ive been thinking on this bup. thing lots.I got a new GP last month to help w/ my anxiety.Hes good and hes cool.Hes also runs a pain clinic.I have to see him next week.Should I mention that I noticed no dr. in Upper MI is certified.He could get the qualifications and make loads of money as there are tons of junkies up here for this state being so small.Good idea or no?

[skipper]

hey people:
today has gone much beter...stuck to my med schedule, instead of trying to delay the mid-day dose as long as possiable. so 40 mg. of oxy down the pipe (didn't even chew them!), a glass of ice-tea and Solomon Burke (proud mary, bell sessions) on the tunes box.maybe it's the music...but i seem to be having a much beter time of things today. of course i may be over-looking the power of this forum...a few kind words, a verbal kick in the ass...just acknowledgement from another addict...all of us are so good at hiding!! i'll bet i make sense to somebody out there...if so let me know,OK... i know i ain't doing this alone, and sometimes, even the oldtimers get stuck behind a load of stuff they just can't handle alone. i've always looked at this forum as a life-line, and a VERY long term commitment on my part. ya' know i've been here since 2001, and in that time it's saved my ass to many times to count! i'ld like to think i've made a difference for someone else too!

i'm starting to rambleing (and) probably getting somewhat tire-some to listen to. i just want let ya' all know i'm gonna care about each and every one of you! and there isn't a f**king thing any one can do about it!!

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[bmac]

Hey Bro, I took my meds the right way too today. 'It is the music and I hear music music oh oh oh lord I hear music everywhere. My grandmother use to say when she prayed  oh lord let the music play and oh lord I hear music over my head. 'Doug Pinnick,Kings X' Have a good day, Bmac

[terter]

You helped me in earlier threads more then you know.. Through someone else or directly to me. Old timer or new we all go through the same thing, I'm not as educated as some of you, but my thoughts are with you and I'm glad your having a better day.
Thank You    Terri

[tonny13]

Hi Terri
I wouldn't be too worried about your blood pressure. Honest, I'm surprised the pharmacist expressed any alarm about it at all.  The 100/70 ish one is actually in the very healthy range. The 82/62 while being a little on the low side and I would definitely mention it to your doc at the next appt., is nothing to be too scared about. Very recently in the last week or so, I read an article in one of the medical journals that the much reported perfect reading of 120/80 is actually slightly on the high side.  I was a medical assistant and worked in a doctors office and took tons of blood pressures every day for years and just wanted to let you know in case you were worrying about it- don't.

[terter]

I was concerned so Thank you  Terri

[oxic]

You've helped a ton of people in the year that I've been here Kip!!!; me included.......Thanks friend.

percs

[mrmichael67]

Sorry it took a while to get back to you.  I know of other people who have had the same problem you mention.  What they did was take their whole days dose in the morning and that seemed to alleviate the problem.  I can't say it will definitely help your deal, but you should try it.  As far as your friend:  Buprenorphine creates a blockade similar to methadone, but I have heard it is a tad bit more agressive.  I read a study where they administered one 16mg dose of buprenorphine and it created a blockade for 72 hours.  They used hydromorphone (Dilaudid) to challenge it and it held.  So, you should tell your friend to not waste his/her money.  If the vicodin would work, I would imagine it would take A WHOLE LOT OF THEM.  If one is going to be taking buprenorphine for pain as well, they have to make damn sure it works because it isn't like you can take breakthrough meds with it.  I have heard of people that try to.  But, any relief that comes is the 'ol placebo (sugar pill) effect and that is it.  The mind thinks it will work, so it does.  It is a very real phenomenon.  Buprenex is another form, but it is only .3mg per ampule.  You will be sticking yourself an awful lot.  Some people can get by on a small dose, but a lot can't.

[skipper]

hey people:
about bup...
1) it is addictive
2) it is a controlled substance (releat with all of th hysteria of any other mood altering drug)
3) i am somewhat disturbed by numbers of us whom have rushed to embrace bup, only to discover my first 2 points!

i do not wish to sound as if i'm against something that helps people...bup has and will continue to free a lot of people from the
chain of addiction. it is not however the only answer. and it is not
the "all incluive cure for addiction," that so many addict think it is going to be. new studys coming from the UK seem to contradict many of the hopes of american opiate addicts about bup.

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[sharonver]

Buph. may not be the answer for everyone, I think most people realize that they are going to be taking another addictive med, but for the plain fact that you feel normal on it without the sedating effects you get from methadone etc. and it eliminates the withdrawals from the opiate you were on, and when or if do decide to come off this med the withdrawal symptoms are suppose to be 10 times easier than with a med like methadone. So I think it may end up by helping a lot of people who do not want to be in a M.M.T. clinic environment.  So far for me it has been a life saver.  I only take a minimal amount of 6-8 mgs. a day and with that small amount it is keeping me away from opiate abuse. I personally hope that others find it as helpful as I did.

Sharon

[vikequeen]

I went to my doc yesterday and spilled it all out, he was so nice and understanding, He rx'ed me clonidine patch and klomopin 1 mg, so far so good i feel sleepy but it is happening, I know it wont be easy but I have to do it this time or I will lose everything, lots of stuff I never told anyone, I am a stay at home mom, I would write check to my dealer from my hubbys hard earned money how dare I? the man works like a dog for us and I spent so much money and the saddest part was I paid 12 a percocet knowing they were my dealers fav and with my money she could get more and we became broke and filed for bankruptcy while she shoppes at saks, I guess I got to a point wher I was boiling mad, well guys thanks for listening I will miss each and every one of you and you all will live in my heat, I lost a lot of thing but never my compassion and love for my fellow man and addicts Love you lots Badd

[skipper]

badd:
beter have some imodium (immodium) handy. don't worry about the kionipin, it's probably the most non-abusive benzo.

god's speed and keep an angel on your shoulder...
kip

[Oneofus]

I'm new here folks, but I know you all.  I'm just another hopeless case that's been dealing with our common problem for 20 years or more.  I've gotten free a couple of times, but usually not for long.  I'm 64 now and know if I don't do it for good this time I will die an addict...:-(  I was lucky enough to find an incredibly cool doc who has been my delivering angel.  I first went to him because he was listed as being licensed to prescribe bup, and I thought that would do it.  I dissolved an 8mg pill under my tongue...and within a half an hour I almost died.  I can't possibly describe what I went through.  I really thought I was checking out.  Problem was I had been on methadone most recently (that was what I could get my hands on), and even though it had been a couple of days since I had taken any (I had temporarily substituted morphine until I could get more more dones), my doc thinks I was reacting to the combination of bup and dones.

My question is this...do any of you have any experience with shifting over from dones to bup?  Sharon, I know you went a couple of weeks with no dones and it worked well, but there's no way I can go that long at the levels I am at.  Is it true that a person needs to go 12-24 hrs with nothing before they try bup (with no naloxone)?  I've been thinking about shifing over to something else (like morphine) for a week and then trying bup.  My doc says everything he learned in the 8-hr class he took on bup turned out to be wrong.  So much misinformation out there on bup!!!  Do any of you have any first hand info?  

Luv y'all,
Rider

[FLaddict]

Hey there... you probably didn't realize but this thread is from 2003...  If you can get to the main page of the addiction forum and post your question some one can help you.. I took bupe myself but only for 10 days I did ALOT of research on it though and can probably give you some suggestions.. They say to wait 48-72 hours b4 switching the bupe from methodone and you must taper down to 20mgs per day to make the switch.. IF you can switch to something shorter acting for a week or two it should help.. some docs will switch you to oxy's first then to bupe..
Like I said please post a new question so others can see your question.. thanks and welcome

[Oneofus]

Thanks fer the help!!!  I just followed out the thread on bup...:-)  Yer right...I didn't notice the era.  lol

[beachtowel]

The key to using these drugs is to get through W/Ds from opiate use as painless as possible......

The max time used for this is two weeks.........

For the Addict two weeks rarely happens and like any other drug the addict uses days turn into weeks then months and sometimes even yrs........
The cost for these drugs is very high and like Methodone doctors make a bundle of money and build homes in Aruba.........because addicts will misuse subutex and suboxone like they did the drugs that got them into trouble in the first place......

Inpatient detox is the best way to go where control is in the hands of professionals....
In a professional detox for opiates the max use is only five days.....

These drugs work great for what there intended for but they can also be used to substitute from your drug of choice.......it is a slippery slope and with out help the addict will mis use it......

Good luck if this is the route that you go to get off opiates but try to remember two weeks is all you should use this drug for ..........

[beachtowel]

In all my months on the forum there has only been one person FLaddict that has used subutex or suboxone correctly and is doing great even though she is dealing with a lot of pain.........

She took the meds as prescribed and got off...........She is amazing.................and I have so much respect for her...............

She is also using medical treatment for her terrible back with her back or neck.........

She is a model on the forum to emulate.........

Keep with it FLaddict your one of my heros on the forum.........

[meow701]

hi i've been detoxing on subutex since nov. 6 and it has been working amazing for me! i had been using herion and various other drugs fro the past five years and this has been the most smooth detox ever. i'm not sick, i'm still coherent, and i have a chance to get me life back together. i reccommend subutex to any opiod user, it has definately helped me get better and get me life back on track. my only warning is to keep in mind that subutex can only help you get sober and should not be relied on to keep you sober. through the program i have been able to meet lots of cool sober people and understand more about myself and my addiction.

[wait2long]

I am new to this forum, but i have taken my suboxone AS PRESCRIBED and its not working for me yet...and i cant think of one reason why or even how someone could abuse this medicine, and if they are abusing it they are fooling themselves... it has a ceiling effect, no-one can get HIGH on it,  i started out at 32mg (prescribed) and am down to 16mg, and there has been NO DIFFERENCE between the 2 doses... and there is no one way to take this medicine, everyone is different with a different drug of choice they are switching from, and ALL reactions are different...i have not read 2 that are the same yet....i was told to stay on 16mg because of my weight and size....but  i will be tapering to as low as i can regardless...  very rough transition from long acting opiod (methadone) to suboxone, than if someone was taking a shorter acting opiod (like oxys, percs, vics or even heroin) there is no TEXTBOOK way suboxone has to be taken...my doc wants me to stay on it for at least 2 years...NOT!!!

[Dave SSS]

I took subutex for one year. first I researched it for months as I wanted to really quit this time.
I stopped taking my very high dose of vicodin and soma and decided to go through withdrawl (withdrawal) symptoms  and being sick for 6 days. Yes it was bad but I really wanted to be able to tell if the subutex made me not sick, so I figured I really had to be into the meat of sick to feel it work.
Anyway, I did that, started with 4X8 mg for a week and dropped to 3X8 mg a day for a year .
The way I look at it is, Taking subutex is much much better than being on the drugs, so I was going to worry about stooing when or if I decided to. Why have the extra stress right now of thinking about stopping subutex when I just started it?
I learned quite a bit about it. You can take all your daily dose in the morning and it works on a level with a huge half life.( it lasts much  longer than full agonist opiates)
You don't get high so there is little chance to chase it all day like vics.
If you only want to take it when you really have to, yawning is the sign that it is at a very low level in your system.  When a month has gone by, you will not get major withdrawl (withdrawal) symptoms by stopping it from time to time. I was afraid of running out at first , but after trying to not take it a few times, I found out the worst symptom I got was yawning.
A few facts: Yes it is an opiate and may show up in a blood test.
It is a partial agonist, where vicodin,oxy etc, are full agonists. This is how they fill the opiate receptors in the brain. When the receptors are filled, your pain is sort of not able to get signals to the brain. Opiates are not killing the pain, they are filling receptors making it hard to impossible for the pain message to get to the brain and back to the point of pain being felt. Subutex fills these receptors too, so it does stop most pain messages getting through. It lasts a lot longer. You do not get high.
If you take oxy or vicodin while on it, it will not work becasue the receptor is already filled with subutex. Vicodin only works if the receptors will accept the vicodin in. If they are full of subutex, there is no place for the vicodin to go, so it just takes another round trip through your system.
Is subutex addictive? I cannot see how. I know addiction well and this stuff, you just need to take it for the first months to change yourself in a lot of ways. Then you can take it for 6 months or a year and then taper off and quit with no problem.
Put it this way, if you gave subutex to a person who was no addicted to opiates and not having withdrawl (withdrawal), they would have no idea they took it. It only mimics the action of filling the receptors and you take much less mg's of it than you were of your drug. So you can see that it loasts very long and you dont run to it all day.
I suggest to those who want to take it, do not be afraid of addiction. You need to get off your drugs and this is really a great way to do it.
I would try to be off the drugs and sick for at least 2 days before you start subutex.
Then start with 32 mg for a week and drop to 24mg for the duration. Then when you want ot quit, it is easy, you just start tapering off as slow or fast as you feel is right for you.
Suboxone is not for the pill taker. Suboxone is only for those who crush oxycontin up and inject it. Suboxone will make the oxy injectors very sick if they inject while taking suboxone. It is just subutex with an agent to make you sick if you inject opiates.
I was on it at first but told my doctor that I was concerned that I didnt need that agent as I didnt inject, but what if I got in a bad accident and the hospital injected me with morphene? So she changed me to subutex and I am fine today.
If you are taking subutex and think it isnt working, then you didnt go through the being sick before you take it. No it will not be felt to work if you go right from taking 20 vicodin a day to taking subutex without taking at least a day of withdralw sick. It will work but you may think it is not,
I  don't know why people are saying it is hard to stop subutex when they havent even taken it. I took it for a year after yrs of heavy hydro soma use and stopped and it was nothing at all like stopping hydro cold turkey. You just stop and walk away. I took 32mg of subutex a day for a year and tapered off for a few weeks and that was it.
What a miracle subutex has been for me. I would be dead if I would have listened to the people saying it was addictive and worse symptoms and all that hogwash.

Thank
god that I passed on the scare tactics and found out for myself.

[1dery]

Thank you sooo much for your insight. Last week I finally decided I was going to call a Dr. and try the Sub I researched many different sites, then over the weekend while reading here I again became scared of the sub. I have decided to call and give it a try, I just CANT stay where I am at any longer 7 to 10 10 mg hydros a day!! Thanks again.

[wait2long]

hello, new to this forum, i am taking suboxone and having a hell of a time with  it even after taking it for 9 weeks, i was on strictly methadone, nothing else, and was told that is why i am having such a hard time with it...should i be taking subutex instead???  have either of you tried the suboxone also?   any insight would be helpful...

[meow701]

never take methadone, its sucks! its twice as addicting and the withdrawals are worse then dope. subutex or any bup treatment is the best way to go. it makes you feel normal while you take care of **** to stay sober in the long run. however, do not just rely on medication! medication helps but it will not and cannot keep you sober. you have to do the footwork and find a way to help stay sober like AA or whatever works for you. i made the mistake of relying on subutex and luckily i got into the program and actually worked it for once. i used to think it was ******** but it definately helps. i get to meet sober people who dont judge me or minimize me feelings and make me feel like a piece of ****, i get to have a life again and do things i want, and i get to be free from being enslaved to drugs and understand myself. its worth the work if you hit rock bottom and your desperate and i havent been this happy since i can remember. i still have ****** days and i still feel down, but its never even half as bad as it was before i got sober.

[meow701]

how long did it take you to taper off of subutex? i started taking it on nov. 6th last year after 5 years of herion and started at 28mg a day. i want to taper and get on with my life but whenever i do i get really anxious and have panic attacks, i mean its definately no where near as bad as being dope sick but i just want to make sure i taper safely so that i never have to go back to drugs. any advice? did you experience any panic attacks or anxiety while tapering? how are you staying sober today? thank for your help:)

[daveberg]

hey I did it. finally jumped on subutex yesterday. It was like a major decission for a lot of fear. I tried one before with no luck. Maybe took it to soon after Perecot dosing and got really sick. This time I waited until the following moring before I took it which was about 10 hours from my last perceot. It immediatly worked. I started with 2mg but i hour later I needed another 2 and then I was fine up until 5 oclock and i took a 2mg and around 8 oclock i was feeling shakey (shaky) so i took another 2 mg. Its dat two now, 5am and i'm feeling really great which is a first in a long time as i was usually up at 3am taking my first perceot for the day.

[Dave W.]

Hey Dave,there are so many Dave's on here now,but you almost stole my
complete name.LOL  So,the sub is working good for your Perc problem?
I need to get off both Oxy and Methadone,so I think maybe the Sub is
my answer,what do you think? I'm still laughing,since you only need to
put a ein after my name and add your last name to mine,to get my full
name. Very small world indeed. Good luck with the Sub and keep us
posted.Peace.

[daveberg]

The sub is still working great. 8mg a day and I feel i could cout back if i wanted too. dealing with pian but thats how I got hee in the first place and the pain is better than the hassle of getting the percs. I saw the doc yesterday and said there must be a price to pay down the road like W/D from the subs, and maybe there is but my head is clear the first time in awhile, i'm laughing, joking a and have real enegry. I know the world of addition as when i was much younger i ****** around with all drugs including the Big H.  and dabbled in Methadone. I gave up that **** 20 years ago  and started the perc's because of pain. I knew that I would end up having trouble with them and I have no excuses for taken the perc, i needed them, it relieved the pain, but the exchange of your life for pain free is not worth it. Some people get so caught up in the excuses why, like my back, my leg, who the **** cares, they should lighten up. The facts are facts, they are on them, so what. If they want to stop, that's cool too and they should really try sub.

So I have the pain, my head is clear, I'll take the subs for awhile longer and then see how easy it is to come off of them. I really don't care if i never come off, but I hate the idea of traveling and losing them and stuck without any. It goes to show  that any dependence is a big nut to crack.

[daveberg]

suboxone sucks and it almost made me not want to stop when I started taken it., I finally talked my doc into subutex and that's what i been on and it working great. they give you suboxone because they want to block the Opiates if you try and take any. But that's all bull **** because once you made the decission to get high again you have already lost the game. The suboxone make me sick, everyday for the enmtire 7 days I was on it. I jumped back on  Opiates  and it took me 8 weeks to find my way back to the doc to stop. Almost didn't come back and that would have been a shame because I am really feeling good now. You have to get off suboxone and get the real deal subutex . You know why they won't want to give it out, but you have to convince the doc you won't shoot it. Not easy to do if you're a know user.

Good luck and remember everyting I say is my expereince and could be  totally different for someone else. You have to find your own road, this is what has worked for me.

[Foxlight]

hey all, i've had this answered before but I would like a second opinion.  was on methadone a year, quit down to 25 sunday then was given vics by the dr.  monday I will be getting subutex.  Will i have withdrawals from it or do i need to quit the vics before I go to the dr for the whole day, which will be rather hard.

[kyjobr]

there are some really good recent posts on suboxone and I know fladdict had a FAQ post a few weeks ago. I've read it and it's kinda the con side of sub but it's important that you know both sides.  There's also good info in my profile. Just click on my name.  Anyway, you will need to be in mild w/d's when you start the sub but for vics (which I was on) you really only need about 6-12 hours after your last dose.  I don't know how methodone will effect this.  Methodone is much harder to switch to sub from than vics are so maybe that is why your doc had you switch to vics?

If your 100% on vics the mild w/d's will be something like your pupils may be changed, skin crawly a little bit, yawning etc.  I was barely feeling w/d's when I started and I was fine.  Depending upon whether your going to use sub just to get through physical w/d's or if you're going to stay on it longer to help with cravings you will need to SLOWLY taper off the sub before quitting it if you stay on long term.  But it's absolutely nothing compared to vic w/'d or tapering from vics.  As long as you go really slow the w/'d should be very mild.  In the interest of full disclosure I will state that I am a sub user and have not tapered yet so my info is purely based on what I've heard from other people on forums, bulletin boards, meetings etc.  Please feel free to email me if you need more info.  I'm very excited for you!

[Foxlight]

I'm withdrawing right now, even though i take vics every 4 hours, I am sick before the 3rd hour starts but when I don't take the vics I get bad anxiety, terrible.  I was taking addies and when I was scheduled to go in that monday, I told my dr and she told me to take these vics for a week and then try again next monday.  i was so scared, but kinda glad now that I researched it.  i just want this w/d to end and i'm afraid it will get worse monday when I take the subs.  anyway, thank you kyjobr for your kind words.

[FLaddict]

When I switched from vics to Sub i was told to wait 12-16 hours after my last vic to start Sub.. I waited 14 hours i think..started it and was fine no precipitated withdrawals.

And to be clear the FAQ I posted is not a negative side of sub.. but it is the info Docs and people in the 'honeymoon" phase of Sub won't tell you, i think of it as a disclaimer for people thinking about getting on it or people on it that their docs have no idea what they are doing.

[kyjobr]

So you were scheduled to start sub before but couldn't?  Is all the meth going to be out of your system when you go in on Monday to start sub?  Good luck.  don't worry, I'm sure you'll feel much better when you start the sub.  Please be sure to keep in touch and let us know how you're doing.  Feel free to send me an email anytime too.  I know I was scared to death when I started sub.  I was actually crying when I took the first one.  It's a major step and for me I felt that I couldn't handle failing again.

[Foxlight]

hun, your words are so important to me, both kyjobr and FLaddict.  I don't have alot of understanding people around me, just my fiancee, so i've gotten so much from you.  FLaddict, I looked up what you said on my other post and though I thought you MAY have been wrong because my dr said otherwise, I find she lied to me and that you indeed were telling me facts.  I didn't want to believe it because I was scared, but thankyou.  I don't know if all the methadone will be out of my system but it should be close, it will have been over a week by like 12 hours and I'm young and rather healthy still (somehow) and this is going to be my greatest weapon.  I will try to not take vics for at least 12 hours before,  it will be hard but it may mean my suffering will end monday.  no?  thanks again you two.

[benrocc]

hey

[chickeninabun]

ive been taking the subutex for 5 months now and i want to quit....thwy are great for staying away from heroin...no pain at all,but i need an answer how to get off the subutex without any pain at all......please help me...i know for sure that the sickness is not as strong as heroin but i am stuck on the subs and i hate it when i cant get them easyily or am trapped somewhere and cant get them...

[chickeninabun]

or maybe its all in my mind:)

[billy24]

I had no problem finding a doc- I have been on 24 mg per day for almost 2 years and my doc says I should stay on it forever- its changed my life for the good.

[rebeard]

Subutex is a miracle drug! It has saved my life. I was eating Duragesic patches (fentalyl) for about 3 years, and vicoden and Ultram for about 7 years before that. But, taking Subutex long-term it will cause withdrawal symptoms. I've been on it for 4 years and am now trying to get off. After about 8 hours without taking it, I start to feel the withdrawal which is pretty unpleasant. Haven't made it past that yet, so I'm writing this without that knowledge. My suggestion: Use Subutex to get off your drug of choice for 2-4 weeks, then taper and stop. Don't stay on it long-term. I'm not a doctor and am only speaking about my own personal experiences with it. So take it for what it's worth.

[tobias5001]

  Hey everyone my name is tobias core, and I'm addicted to heroin.  My problem is that I've discovered how to use subutex to function while still being addicted.  I mean I function well, i have'nt missed a day of work due to wds in over a year.  I get higth for acouple of days then go back on the bup.  Since there is still bup in my system from days before, I rarely experience wds.  I take bup for a few days then step myself down fairly quickly.  The trouble starts when I try to come off the bup totally.  I rationalize to myself that if I'm feeling this bad come'n off the bup, I might as well be on dope.  Stupid I know, but it is a cycle I have not been able to break away from.  Once the wds from the dope are over, I don't want to be on anything and I try to stop the bup, I;ve gotten down to a half of a mg a day of bup, and not made it off.  Is there any hope for me at all?

[kevheb]

My opiate experiences started around 1992 and started with hydrocodone then oxycodone. Ater having back surgery in 2002  i was still having pain issues so i started going to pain management. Any way once in that setting i was on dilaudid 8 mg 3x daily 200 mg of methadone and duragesic{fentanyl} all very potent narcotics. Long story short i was sick and tired of the drugs they had started to consume my life,and i needed a change. So when i went to my next appt. i asked my Dr. What options were available,something that could help my pain and also not having to take a variety of drugs.He mentioned suboxone and i agreed,only problem being on a high dose of methadone i had to taper, but it was not easy at all total misery. I am now currently taking subutex because it is now available in generic at walgreens 60 tablets cost 159.00 A great decrease from what i was paying for suboxone without ins. And i would suggest this medicine to any one it has saved my life and family.

[sharonver]

The generic sub that you get from Walgreens is $156.00 for 60 tablets of what strength? 4mg or 8 mgs?  I have been on subutex for over 5 years and paying big bucks, my pharmacy just recently informed me that they now have a generic, but at CVS, the difference was minimal.
So I went to Sams Club and they are having trouble ordering it.  I was told to go a day or two ahead of time, which I did, now they are telling me they tried to order it, but they are out and have to wait....Any problems getting it at Walgreens?  thanks..

Sharon

[mr.lucky66]

I'm glad sub has worked for you and you don't have to go to a clinic. I was on many and some of them were hellholes loaded with criminals. I don't know what the long term effects of sub are and how good it is for lifetime maintenence and pain. If you need narcotics for pain then maybe you are doing ok on the sub for now but time will tell. All the best

[avisg]

sharon,
That is a long time to be on sub or you ever planing on tapering off of it or do you plan on staying on it indefinitely .Do you get any recovery care

[GA Guy]

Dr. Junig, who was at one time the Doctor who answered questions in the Addiction "Doctor's Forum" is an advocate of very long term Suboxone use for those he deems appropriate. He's done extensive research and makes some very valid points. I do know that he just wrote a new book that I believe that every Suboxone user should read. Anyone interested in his thoughts should Google his name or visit his websites. He was a great asset to MedHelp.

[mr.lucky66]

Yes Junig is very knowelable about sub and addiction, (he is a recovering addict), and advoctes sub and may take it himself. I don't believe it's a miracle drug as he says it is and it really hasn't been tested for lifetime maintenence.

[chelebelle1229]

The buprenorphine is designed to gradually up your pain threshold. I just switched from suboxone to subutex this past weekend, and I feel like a different person. That feeling of wanting to go to sleep and never wake up is finally gone!! Prior to suboxone, I was on methadone for a couple years. In a freak incident, they put me on a 15-day detox that only took about 8 days. It was the worst thing I've ever experienced. I would willingly and gladly go through an entire year of oxy withdrawal's than to ever go back on methadone. Like I said, I'm on subutex now. People say the taste is worse than suboxone, but I couldn't even look at my bottle of medication without vomiting. My new doctor told me to take a couple tic-tacs and put them under there with the subutex. It works wonders, and I can see what I've been doing wrong in the way I was taking the suboxone. To be able to get it down, I would drink some juice with it, just enough to dull the taste. My first day on the subutex I was sick, but it was like being sick from getting the amount of medicine that I was actually lacking before. I am feeling better now and doing just fine. I finally have hope that I will get off this medication, and my days no longer revolve around having to take my medication. I feel the closest to normal I've felt in years, and I'm thrilled. To those of you who live in Michigan, if you are close enough, try coming into Indiana. That's where I just moved and my doctor alone has 8 different clinics in the nothern part of the state. Just a thought!

[biged560]

Subutex and Suboxone was designed for one purpose and one purpose only and it is meant to completely get off the opiates immediately. Both were designed to alleviate withdrawls and once the patient feels no one withdrawls from the primary opiate or opiate synthetic, then immediately stop taking Subutex and/or Suboxone! If you do not, then you will also become addicted to Subutex and Suboxone and experience depedence. The proper way, let's say if you were on heroine, is to substitute Suboxone and/or Subutex until such time as you stop sweating in the middle of the night which should be in most cases 5 to 7 days. During those 5 to 7 days you should be on Subutex and/or Suboxone and once you stop sweating, then you immediately stop taking Suboxone and/or Subutex and then immediately you will no longer experience withdrawals and the problem accomplished. However after 12 days on Suboxone and/or Subutex you will also experience addiction and then the circle starts all over again and you defeated the purpose. Please take it from a pro as I am, I know what I am talking about unfortunately.

[biged560]

Subutex and Suboxone was designed for one purpose and one purpose only and it is meant to completely get off the opiates immediately. Both were designed to alleviate withdrawls and once the patient feels no one withdrawls from the primary opiate or opiate synthetic, then immediately stop taking Subutex and/or Suboxone! If you do not, then you will also become addicted to Subutex and Suboxone and experience depedence. The proper way, let's say if you were on heroine, is to substitute Suboxone and/or Subutex until such time as you stop sweating in the middle of the night which should be in most cases 5 to 7 days. During those 5 to 7 days you should be on Subutex and/or Suboxone and once you stop sweating, then you immediately stop taking Suboxone and/or Subutex and then immediately you will no longer experience withdrawals and the problem accomplished. However after 12 days on Suboxone and/or Subutex you will also experience addiction and then the circle starts all over again and you defeated the purpose. Please take it from a pro as I am, I know what I am talking about unfortunately.

[kishme7]

hey just wondering if anyone knows if you are currently on methadone and want to switch to subutex don't you have to make sure all the methadone is out of your system first or the subutex will send you into withdrawls?

[mfee2079]

If your addicted to pain killers please read!! I have been on Morphine for over 5 years. Very heavy doses and have decided to come off. Subutex WORKS!! I had one night of some shakes and discomphort but nothing like running out. Klonipin (klonopin) and coulzapan (spelling is bad) relieved the first night issues.
This works, if you want off this is the way to do it without the issues of withdrawl (withdrawal). I never thought there would be help but there is. Pick up the phone, call a doctor it is worth it

[Alyson100]

Apparently some writers on this board don't know about the other, state-of-the-art, uses for Suboxone and Subutex.  They are both used to treat moderate to severe pain for extended periods of time as a primary use--not just used to manage addiction.  Suboxone is used for those who have suffered from addiction, and Subutex is used for those who have a lower addiction risk and need only pain treatment.  Suboxone has a substance, an opiod protagonist, that makes it so if you take any other narcotic than Suboxone, your brain's opiod receptors will not accept it, will reject it, and you will feel awful.

Subutex is the fastest working drug I have ever used, as it is delivered sublingually.  It does taste nasty, but it does not metabolize through your liver because of it dissolving into your tongue. It doesn't hurt your stomach to take it.  About ten minutes after taking it, rather than an hour or so, my pain is largely relieved.   I have used it for three years, for my fairly mangled back and neck, after going to the point of diminishing returns with greater doses of more powerful narcotics.  I detoxed myself off of a large, twice-daily dose of morphine, and immediately found a physician certified to receive Subutex.  The relief was fabulous. I am highly educated, and had lost 10 years of university and the ability to practice due to the fog of narcotics.  I do not experience foggy thinking with Subutex, although I am on the highest dose available.  I am excited to return to work.

My daughter, 30 years old and suffering from severe Rhematoid Arthritis, uses BUTRANS, which is Subutex in a transdermal patch.  She is a new person who is reclaiming her life and is again able to parent her two young sons.  AND, GET THIS, any physician can prescribe the patch.  The limit on patients and certification of physicians to prescribe Suboxone and Subutex is due to the requirement they monitor patients who are in addiction therapy.  Physicians who are treating for pain also have to be certified to prescribe oral Suboxone and oral Subutex, but Butrans is a great alternative--the same drug with even release for 7 days at a time--and can be prescribed by your family physician.  The only downside, and perhaps the reason it can be prescribed by any physician, is that the dosage cannot reach the maximum obtainable on the Subs.

I recommend to anyone who is in serious, real pain, or who needs an effective way to detox and get clean and manage the pain that started the addicition,  that they seek out a properly licensed pain clinic.  The physicians in such a clinic are normally certified for both Subs, and can help you get through the madness of pain and the more serious madness of narcotic usage.

Best wishes, Alyson

[DarkAngel1982]

I have been on Suboxone for 3 years and I have been switched to Subutex recently because I am pregnant. I have remained clean and sober besides taking my prescribed Subutex everyday. I am only on 2mg but if i don't take it i feel like death. I am also a graduate of the University of Phoenix and have my degree in addictionology/substance abuse counseling.  I never in a million years thought that i would become addicted to the Suboxone like I was w/ Oxycontin. I was taking 6-8 80mg tablets of of Oxycontin daily for about a year straight and I was tired of living my life like this. Now after being on the Subs for so long I know i am addicted to it. Now that I am 31 weeks pregnant I want to be weaned off before i have my second child. The doctors keep telling me NO because they say there are no studies proving what it would do to the baby if I wean off the drug. Now I am no doctor but I think If I am feeling fine and i don't have withdrawals than my child will be fine as well. I could be wrong. I just want to be able to live my life normally and not have to take a pill everyday to feel normal. I don't have the same energy that I used to have, I cant sleep, I barely eat and I have no motivation to do anything. I feel as though I am a bad mother to my 4 year old daughter and a bad wife to the most amazing man I could ever ask for. My husband and I have sex maybe once every 6-8 months and I know this is not normal. The Subutex has ruined my sex drive and lately it seems as though there is no pleasure in anything I do. I just want to feel normal! My doctors told me they will take me off the Subutex as soon as I have my daughter but I really don't want to have a new born baby and be having withdrawals at the same time. I know I am going to feel like death when I stop and I know its going to take a few months if not longer for me to feel normal. Sometimes I think its all in my head and if I tell myself I wont be sick than I wont be. Does anyone think that its true that some people should be on this medication permanently? I cant imagine having to take this for the rest of my life. I want to feel NORMAL!!!!!! I want to feel the way I did before I ever touched an opiate. Is that to much to ask for.

[nursegirl6572]

This thread is really old, hon.  You'll get a lot more input if you start your own thread.  Top right of the page, look for the orang button that says "post a question", then copy/paste your reply here into a new thread.

I think it's VERY reasonable to want to wean off the Sub.  Some people DO choose to stay on it long term, but I personally think it's a good idea to try to wean off.

Perhaps get a second opinion from a new sub doc?

A 2 mg daily dose IS high enough where w/ds would be pretty significant stoppping (like you've said).  The trick to a sub taper, for better chance of success is a slow and steady decrease.  The sub doc I worked for wouldn't recommend anyone jumping off completely until they got down to at LEAST 0.5 mg/day...some even went lower to minimize any w/d's.

This is YOUR decision hon.  After you have your baby (CONGRATS BTW!)....have a very frank discussion with your sub doc...or find a new one who is willing to work with you to help you meet your goals.  Sadly, some sub docs prefer to keep people on it, rather than encouraging tapering...for profit reasons.

Very best to you..start that new thread if you need more input, okay?  

[KristyDeHoyos1979]

I have been reading for info on Subutex...I hit this thread and read and read...I hit your comment..I took Suboxone for almost 3 years and I felt the SAME WAY your describing.  My husband is still on Suboxone..I switched tothe Subutex a few weeks ago.  I feel somewhat better overall...not too much though.  I wanted to talk to you about the baby....I was pregnant while taking Suboxone and I cut my dose down to a HALF OF A PILL A DAY, which is next to nothing compared to the full 3 I had taken prior...and my baby would be very restless inside my tummy when I would take the meds late....and when I delivered him I had been off the meds for 4 days, having bad withdrawls....and MY BABY HAD THEM TOO.  If I could go back, I would taper down super slow, and get down to a quarter of a pill (which I know its NOTHING for a dose, but its enough to keep your withdrawls at bay)  and GET OFF OF IT....my baby is 2 years old in a few days, and he cries ALL THE TIME and he throws tantrums that nobody can believe, and he wakes up about every other hour at night...and hes been that way since day 1.  He also is very allergic to dairy products and refuses alot of foods.  I have 4 other kids, currently living in Texas with Family until we move back (we are outside of Minneapolis Minnesota right now)...and thank GOD my kids are taken care of because my baby boy tests my will to live DAILY!  :))  Its tough...I love my lil guy...but I am convinced that the Suboxone is fully to blame, and I live with the horrible guilt all the time.  Even though I did the best I could, I should have realized the impact it would have on a BABY if it had such an impact on ME!  My delivery was hell....almost died during complications, and made the newspaper headlines because of the ordeal.....please consider what you can do..even if its just reducing the dose by a ton...DO IT!  God Bless you, in your struggle....your struggle is my struggle everyday!  Hugs!  Kristy1979