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Question about Pain Management
I've been giving this a lot of thought. Because opiate withdrawal is not life threatening, doctors are handing these things out like candy. Yes, you get that little pamphlet advising you that these drugs can be addictive. The truth is that these drugs were never intended for long term use. I think it would only take a few minutes out of a doctors time to show you a short video of what these drugs can do over prolong use.........addiction and dependence is a very fine line and showing a short video of what one will suffer as a result of prolonged use (watching someone suffer withdrawal) as a possibility may make the patient make alternative choices.
There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.
Nauty
There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.
Nauty
A related discussion, Pain Management Program Experience was started.
I find centers with cajones big enough to treat patients adequately for their pain to be few and far between, but also, of a lot higher caliber in terms of their patient care. I am not going to start nursing just to watch people suffer through pain needlessly. Some people do need chronic pain relief and if they have a problem, the response can be based on a case by case bases.
http://health.discovery.com/centers/pain/medicine/med_addict.html
"The pain patient who is effectively treated with opioids finds life restored-even if he is dependent on them. With the pain muted by stable and steady controlled use of long-acting opioids, a patient can reclaim his life, go back to work, return to family life, and pursue favorite pastimes. Dependence is a physical state that occurs when the lack of a drug causes the body to have a reaction. Physical dependence is solely a physical state indicating that the body has grown so adapted to having the drug present that sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction. This can occur with almost any kind of drug."
Just remember Reno, being an addict and building tolerance/dependence is not the same thing at all.
"The pain patient who is effectively treated with opioids finds life restored-even if he is dependent on them. With the pain muted by stable and steady controlled use of long-acting opioids, a patient can reclaim his life, go back to work, return to family life, and pursue favorite pastimes. Dependence is a physical state that occurs when the lack of a drug causes the body to have a reaction. Physical dependence is solely a physical state indicating that the body has grown so adapted to having the drug present that sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction. This can occur with almost any kind of drug."
Just remember Reno, being an addict and building tolerance/dependence is not the same thing at all.
I left a post for the Dr. & have been seeking answers since I have quit my meds, which by the way ended up being methodone. I have a very bad back problem that I was born with, but did not start feeling the pain until my 1st daughter was born. I did not get on pain meds until years later when my nerve canal flared up & I could not get off the floor. At that time I was referred to a pain manageent dr. & he prescribed me #10 vicdin @ 8 pills a day. I was on those for about 3mos. After having injections the pain was gone, but my back always hurts even if I clean the house. The pronlem is after the injections I tried to not take the meds anymore, but the withdrawls were worse than the back pain.so bad I panicked & kept taking the meds until those pills weren't strong enough anymore. The body builds up a tolerance to the meds, so the next step is to go on a stronger med & so the spiral goes. Eventually no med works anymore, so they put you on methodone, which gives you no high or pain relief, it just keeps you out of withdrawl from the opiates. This is where my problem lies, because there comes a point in peoples lives where they get tired of the drug controlling their lives, & the cost of the drug gets very exspensive. Now you want to get off of them once & for all, then the pain really begins for people in my situation. I totally understand cp, but I am also living in the reality of getting off of these meds, * if I knew more about the meds, & did my homework I would have done because no one worned me about the sufferring I would be going through, I would have made better choices. I am not saying that all you who have cp for whatever reason should be punished for people who have made stupid mistakes like myself, (but while in horrible pain ) I wasn't making a mistake I was only trying to get through the pain, but I should have done whatever it took to quit the meds then. I could have quit alot easier than what I am going through now. I have been off of methodone for 3 wks, & I am still sufferring the consiquences from long term use & regretting taking any meds because of the HELL I am now going through.So for anyone out there who is taking their meds today that don't really need them like they think they do anymore, or are just afraid of the withdrawls, because they have tried to quit & suffered more from that then the actual pain itself, please think about it before you continue to take more & more pills or get on stronger pills, & last but not least for anyone who is referred to methodone to get off of opiates " please don't do it " it is by far the most difficult withdrawl & longest sufferring you will ever experience in your life. I worry about all of the people on here who have cp, & will have to take meds possibly forever because of the tolerance level, & the fact that your meds will eventually not work anymore, so your dr. will have to increase your dose over & over again until they put you on methodone. good luck to you all!!
Here's a good article for those who believe addiction and dependence are one in the same:
http://www.cpmission.com/main/dispelling.html
"Pain patients very rarely become addicted"
Disagree if you must.
http://www.cpmission.com/main/dispelling.html
"Pain patients very rarely become addicted"
Disagree if you must.
And when you're in severe pain you're probably not posting on the internet worried about petty things then saying you're off to the emergency room at the same time. That's what I don't get. It seems like some people don't understand what real pain actually is, so it's easy for them to make judgement calls and say others don't need medication when in reality they're the ones who don't need it.
I was recently told I probably have endometriosis (FINALLY I got my own prescription for vicodin) and when the cramping starts it's like being in labor, there's no way in *H* I could be sitting and writing on a computer.
I was recently told I probably have endometriosis (FINALLY I got my own prescription for vicodin) and when the cramping starts it's like being in labor, there's no way in *H* I could be sitting and writing on a computer.
I can't agree it's addiction as you want it to be. I smoke cigarettes, and I'm a nicotine addict. When I stop smoking, the difference between that and stopping opiates is night and day. The worst part about stopping opiates is the pain that quickly overtakes me, not the withdrawal.
When I quit smoking I become a demon, I can't even see straight, concentrate, I sweat, I wake up with nightmares, it's awful.
So I know the difference, and there is one. Perhaps for some that difference isn't as apparent, but it is to me.
When I quit smoking I become a demon, I can't even see straight, concentrate, I sweat, I wake up with nightmares, it's awful.
So I know the difference, and there is one. Perhaps for some that difference isn't as apparent, but it is to me.
Nauty, I think it was wise to suggest this thread come to a close, but I just had to comment on the high heels and a couple quick things. You go girl! on the sexy shoe thing! I can't wear them anymore and there probably aren't many who are all that choked up about it! lol, but they ARE wonderful, and make you feel SO GOOD! Everyone has to have something that makes them feel good about themselves - how they look, feel, whatever - and no matter what it is that is taken away by a disease or condition - it's a loss! And we ALL mourn losses, even if they're different from someone else.
Also, jsuzanne, Montel has had MS for quite a while. AND - he DOES have a real life. Just lives part of it in the limelight. Montel is a very busy man. Who ever got the idea that being famous means you have a lot of free time - that one doesn't make much sense to me - but...again, everyone's different. I've found that most - not all - of the things money can buy, as far as alternative therapy is concerned, a motivated patient can do on their own. For example, you don't need a gym membership to do yoga or work out, and as far as having time to meditate etc., - I have MS, and time isn't the factor. MS is a very variable disease, as I'm sure you know. Everyone's symptoms are different. Everyone responds to treatment differently. So it's a bad disease to use to compare people. (I DO wish I had the money to be treated with acupuncture though!) I believe meditation can be a very powerful thing, but it isn't going to take everyone's pain away - no matter how much free time they have. Also, the drugs that have come out recently - I've tried, and I can't tolerate them, and am going to have to go on an old one instead. Sorry about your mom - I know being sick with kids is very very hard. We're all in this together - just trying to have the best life possible - given our own unique set of circumstances. I would imagine there are things you feel very sad about not being able to do anymore that others would find to be of less importance. It's what makes us interesting! One person's high heels might be another's game of tennis. I know I can't possibly understand another person's burdens. Sounds like you have a lot to juggle and I wish you well.
Blessings to all, and may all your nerves fire with less intensity! Jan
Also, jsuzanne, Montel has had MS for quite a while. AND - he DOES have a real life. Just lives part of it in the limelight. Montel is a very busy man. Who ever got the idea that being famous means you have a lot of free time - that one doesn't make much sense to me - but...again, everyone's different. I've found that most - not all - of the things money can buy, as far as alternative therapy is concerned, a motivated patient can do on their own. For example, you don't need a gym membership to do yoga or work out, and as far as having time to meditate etc., - I have MS, and time isn't the factor. MS is a very variable disease, as I'm sure you know. Everyone's symptoms are different. Everyone responds to treatment differently. So it's a bad disease to use to compare people. (I DO wish I had the money to be treated with acupuncture though!) I believe meditation can be a very powerful thing, but it isn't going to take everyone's pain away - no matter how much free time they have. Also, the drugs that have come out recently - I've tried, and I can't tolerate them, and am going to have to go on an old one instead. Sorry about your mom - I know being sick with kids is very very hard. We're all in this together - just trying to have the best life possible - given our own unique set of circumstances. I would imagine there are things you feel very sad about not being able to do anymore that others would find to be of less importance. It's what makes us interesting! One person's high heels might be another's game of tennis. I know I can't possibly understand another person's burdens. Sounds like you have a lot to juggle and I wish you well.
Blessings to all, and may all your nerves fire with less intensity! Jan
I run my own ONLINE business. Not sit on my butt collecting SSI. And, I don't know about you, but I love Sexy High heel shoes. I am not a female truck driver, nor do wear wranglers and plaid shirts, and spit chewing tobacco, so, it's not cool to stereo people.
I hope I answered all of your question. I really don't see any reason to respond to this post any further. If you find any truth in this thread or want to be in denial...then that's ok too.......I really enjoyed reading most of the posts, and the debate was quite interesting if you read very closely..........
The statement about Montel Williams was completely FALSE....at least google him first so you don't make yourself look ...um....best to get your facts straight.
God Bless all who suffer chronic pain, addiction, dependence, and any "pain management" patient. We are all entitled to our opinions and I have much respect for all who voiced......Peace~
Nauty...........
I hope I answered all of your question. I really don't see any reason to respond to this post any further. If you find any truth in this thread or want to be in denial...then that's ok too.......I really enjoyed reading most of the posts, and the debate was quite interesting if you read very closely..........
The statement about Montel Williams was completely FALSE....at least google him first so you don't make yourself look ...um....best to get your facts straight.
God Bless all who suffer chronic pain, addiction, dependence, and any "pain management" patient. We are all entitled to our opinions and I have much respect for all who voiced......Peace~
Nauty...........
How about everyone just agree that it IS addiction, (I tell people I'm addicted, because I don't mind the term) but that there are different types of addiction. One where you seek the drugs when it isn't actually necessary, or that there are other things that would work - and the other is when you take the narcotics for a long period of time due to legitimate need after having tried everything else, and you become dependent physiologically. If I only had the pain I have from my C1-C7 being all herniated and C3-4 having a bone spur that causes foramin narrowing and nerve impingement, I wouldn't need anything but physical therapy. I now understand your situation. Many in that situation feel different levels of pain, however, as you said, but I just wanted to clarify that others, me, have that as one of the minor problems. I don't really think there are any people who have all the diseases and disorders I have and believe me, I don't say that with some sort of sick pride, but to point out how different we are - as even Nauty accepts.
JaggedLittlePill, - people who are dependent on narcotics DO have withdrawal symptoms and they know it. They are only stating that they aren't taking them by choice, or to get high.
I believe everyone could agree on this, I really do. It's a communication problem that gets compounded by emotions. Yesterday was my Bday and I had to spend it in bed. Even WITH narcotics, I wasn't able to move an inch. The day was spent moaning and groaning. Quite a celebration!
Take care everyone, and try not to worry about anyone except yourself. After all, it's enough to worry about, right?
Blessings, Jan And BTW, I'm addicted to diet-coke (caffeine), also. when I stop, my blood vessels dilate and I get a headache that won't stop!
JaggedLittlePill, - people who are dependent on narcotics DO have withdrawal symptoms and they know it. They are only stating that they aren't taking them by choice, or to get high.
I believe everyone could agree on this, I really do. It's a communication problem that gets compounded by emotions. Yesterday was my Bday and I had to spend it in bed. Even WITH narcotics, I wasn't able to move an inch. The day was spent moaning and groaning. Quite a celebration!
Take care everyone, and try not to worry about anyone except yourself. After all, it's enough to worry about, right?
Blessings, Jan And BTW, I'm addicted to diet-coke (caffeine), also. when I stop, my blood vessels dilate and I get a headache that won't stop!
Ok well when your pain stops, abruptly stop the opiates and im sure your not going to have any withdrawals.
This is only my 2nd post on this board but I want to say something.
I know alot about Montel Williams and he hasn't had MS for very long. By the time he got it there were already really effective medications/treatments for it. My mom was diagnosed over 25 years ago when nobody really knew much about it. She had 6 kids and a job, no nannies, maids, etc... Montel Williams probably has lots of time to do yoga and meditate get accupuncture or whatever. What does an average person with a real life do in that case?
Also, naughty I'm so extremely curious what you do that's not work/not government assistance---yet still produces an income? And the high heel thing's pretty confusing to me as well. Do you have kids? responsibilities? Many of us just don't have lives that allow us the freedom to feel bad about not being able to wear heels.
I know alot about Montel Williams and he hasn't had MS for very long. By the time he got it there were already really effective medications/treatments for it. My mom was diagnosed over 25 years ago when nobody really knew much about it. She had 6 kids and a job, no nannies, maids, etc... Montel Williams probably has lots of time to do yoga and meditate get accupuncture or whatever. What does an average person with a real life do in that case?
Also, naughty I'm so extremely curious what you do that's not work/not government assistance---yet still produces an income? And the high heel thing's pretty confusing to me as well. Do you have kids? responsibilities? Many of us just don't have lives that allow us the freedom to feel bad about not being able to wear heels.
Wrong you are, and I was waiting for that. Dependence and addiction are not the same thing, and it strikes a nerve to be told you're an addict when you aren't.
So take the soapbox elsewhere please.
So take the soapbox elsewhere please.
Just because you think or say your not addicted or not an addict doesnt mean you arent. Your either in denial or havent taken the meds long enough. Bottom line is being dependent is basically the same as addicted. If you cannot stop taking it your addicted, regarldess of why. For anyone to jump so quick to flame someone else of their opinion must obviously mean it struck a nerve and you feel a reason to defend yourself. Everyone neds to be real with theirselves. Its ridiculous for someone to say its okay for them to take them but the next person isnt. Come on now!
that wold be cord impingement along with the moderate and severe.......ah. had to throw that in.......off to the ER...... take care.......
I give up. It appears I am not the brick wall. And, I never was never accused of being a drug seeker. I was having problems at work and PAIN. I went to see the doctor and was given Ibuprofen and it barely helped. I went back and they upped it to darvocet. I believe my symptoms and the fact that they were not getting better warranted at least an X-ray?....no. Almost 6 months later I tried what I call alternative medicine and went to see a Chiro. That's when I found out my entire cervical spine is completely herniated EVERY DISC with 1 with moderate and the other moderate to severe. Please don't imply that I don't feel pain. I do require surgery, but it is my choice Not to have it.
I do not enjoy........not being able to use my upper extremities for any long period of time, nor do I not enjoy Not being able to wear high heel shoes because my whole left side is numb and in pain, which affects my gait, and will stumble or fall, which has happened only to hurt myself more. I don't enjoy not enjoying life sitting on the sideline because I can't play with the rest of the kids...maybe you don't understand how not being able to wear a pair of nice sexy shoes..... a woman affects me!
I can't lift, stand, sit or squat for any period of time without being in misery. I take neurontin and advil, Ibuprofen......BY CHoice because all the doc's want to do is raise that dose. No way! not for me.
Please just read my posts before you misquote or misinterpret what I am saying. I think I made my argument as I see and feel, and there's nothing wrong with that....Is there?
nauty..........I hope this is somewhat readable......as I am sick as a dog and half asleep......read your post and had to respond. Now I am off to the ER.....lol. Good Lord!
Peace
Nauty.............
I do not enjoy........not being able to use my upper extremities for any long period of time, nor do I not enjoy Not being able to wear high heel shoes because my whole left side is numb and in pain, which affects my gait, and will stumble or fall, which has happened only to hurt myself more. I don't enjoy not enjoying life sitting on the sideline because I can't play with the rest of the kids...maybe you don't understand how not being able to wear a pair of nice sexy shoes..... a woman affects me!
I can't lift, stand, sit or squat for any period of time without being in misery. I take neurontin and advil, Ibuprofen......BY CHoice because all the doc's want to do is raise that dose. No way! not for me.
Please just read my posts before you misquote or misinterpret what I am saying. I think I made my argument as I see and feel, and there's nothing wrong with that....Is there?
nauty..........I hope this is somewhat readable......as I am sick as a dog and half asleep......read your post and had to respond. Now I am off to the ER.....lol. Good Lord!
Peace
Nauty.............
You still don't get the difference, as shown by:
"You were rejected or referred to "Pain Management" because they thought you were a drug seeker."
That's a load of bull-****, plain and simple. If you were a drug seeker, why on earth would doctors send you to a place likely to use opiates as a treatment for pain? My doctor sent me there because after 2 years of many doctors and attempted treatments, the problem couldn't be fixed.
Being on opiates for a long time does NOT make one an addict, you need to learn the difference. You can become dependent on the INTERNET, or COFFEE too! Dependence will happen with these drugs, but it's way, way different than full blown addiction.
Also to say you can stretch and take Ibuprofen and be fine, and seem to expect that of others is laughable....don't you think most have tried that? Sorry hun, it doesn't work. 8 different Physical Therapy places didn't work either. Surgery didn't work. If there was a simple fix to our pain, we'd have done it. Opiods are a last resort to be able to live your life, and that by no means makes you an addict. Would you say someone on blood pressure meds to stay healthy is an addict?
Just because you've seen a doctor prescribe too much means nothing. I know a woman who's crashed 4 vehicles, does that mean most women crash cars? No. When I got 4 impacted wisdom teeth removed I got TEN Percocets, and I had to take 2 at a time for any relief and they refused any more!
So please, stop imposing your opinions and worldview and thinking that's how everything works. It isn't.
"You were rejected or referred to "Pain Management" because they thought you were a drug seeker."
That's a load of bull-****, plain and simple. If you were a drug seeker, why on earth would doctors send you to a place likely to use opiates as a treatment for pain? My doctor sent me there because after 2 years of many doctors and attempted treatments, the problem couldn't be fixed.
Being on opiates for a long time does NOT make one an addict, you need to learn the difference. You can become dependent on the INTERNET, or COFFEE too! Dependence will happen with these drugs, but it's way, way different than full blown addiction.
Also to say you can stretch and take Ibuprofen and be fine, and seem to expect that of others is laughable....don't you think most have tried that? Sorry hun, it doesn't work. 8 different Physical Therapy places didn't work either. Surgery didn't work. If there was a simple fix to our pain, we'd have done it. Opiods are a last resort to be able to live your life, and that by no means makes you an addict. Would you say someone on blood pressure meds to stay healthy is an addict?
Just because you've seen a doctor prescribe too much means nothing. I know a woman who's crashed 4 vehicles, does that mean most women crash cars? No. When I got 4 impacted wisdom teeth removed I got TEN Percocets, and I had to take 2 at a time for any relief and they refused any more!
So please, stop imposing your opinions and worldview and thinking that's how everything works. It isn't.
You know it's funny how your post provoked a silly thought, but relevant. I laugh at my mother when she uses mild salsa.......it is not hot to me at all. If she were to use the salsa I use, she would be screaming FIRE.
Like you stated our anatomy is the same. Two people may have the same injury, but who can determine the level of pain they feel. Only that individual. We all have different pain thresholds and that's where the issue may lie, and how can any individual (doctor) determine this, so that is where the gray area is. Some things are just obvious, but the human body is so complex, and when we start getting into diagnosis what does a physician rely on ?.....he/she can't. I am not talking about the addict that goes to the streets, steals, and harms others in order to get a fix. That's a whole different ballpark and I think that is where I was being so misunderstood. The stereotype, or stigma that goes along with the word "Addict" ...Well, I don't have to go into that, but that was what I was referring to when I stated that I felt there were many addicts in the pain management forum "sugarcoating" . When you take addictive drugs you can get addictive, and I feel if you take them for any length of time...you are an addict, and that doesn't make you bad. There are are degrees to addiction and if you are dependent then your good, if your addicted......your bad, and that's just not true, and that's the point I was trying to make. Nobody has a problem saying they are a coffee, chocolate, or even smoking........why are those joked about and ok to talk and laugh about, but saying I'm addicted to medication "taboo" that's my point. Period. Just get real. There is shame in admitting being addicted to meds., but not the others, which makes me feel that person is feeling shame and guilt within themselves.
It took me so long to get over the depression that I am not going to be the same, or be able to do the same things. I was miserable. I find the things that didn't work for me when I was on pills work for me now......why? because I was introduced to the drugs first before the other options. Now the other options take effort and time. We live in an instant gratification world. To put it frankly........We are lazy. My point being that it is so much faster to pop a pill then to decompress, use the tens, and use good posture and common sense. We are dealt the cards and we have to work with it. If I knew nothing of the narcotic's and was given the other options, what I didn't know that came in pill form probably would have worked because I would have not known any better.
I am not saying that people don't need pain meds. for certain conditions.....please. But, they are handed out like candy. I've seen it. Dr's and even Dentists who will refill for minor procedures for months or who knows how long. Many don't give a ****....I had a root canal and got vicodin refills for 2 months?.......I just did it for someone else, but he kept refilling???.......that's what ticks me off, and because they know you can't die from withdrawal.........they don't give rats a$$
My doctor initially was going to prescribe me Oxy before trying something less potent ....I refused and then he gave me darvocet and I was still in pain, but it was tolerable.
I think so much is mental. When we are told we have a disease, esp. degenerate disc disease, which most of us have or will have.....and don't find out until we get injured. I think it causes depression......"I have a disease".......and it gives us even more reason to tell ourselves its ok to pop pills.
Not meant to tick anyone off. Just expressing myself because as you said Jan, this is a fire issue for me.
Nauty..............
Like you stated our anatomy is the same. Two people may have the same injury, but who can determine the level of pain they feel. Only that individual. We all have different pain thresholds and that's where the issue may lie, and how can any individual (doctor) determine this, so that is where the gray area is. Some things are just obvious, but the human body is so complex, and when we start getting into diagnosis what does a physician rely on ?.....he/she can't. I am not talking about the addict that goes to the streets, steals, and harms others in order to get a fix. That's a whole different ballpark and I think that is where I was being so misunderstood. The stereotype, or stigma that goes along with the word "Addict" ...Well, I don't have to go into that, but that was what I was referring to when I stated that I felt there were many addicts in the pain management forum "sugarcoating" . When you take addictive drugs you can get addictive, and I feel if you take them for any length of time...you are an addict, and that doesn't make you bad. There are are degrees to addiction and if you are dependent then your good, if your addicted......your bad, and that's just not true, and that's the point I was trying to make. Nobody has a problem saying they are a coffee, chocolate, or even smoking........why are those joked about and ok to talk and laugh about, but saying I'm addicted to medication "taboo" that's my point. Period. Just get real. There is shame in admitting being addicted to meds., but not the others, which makes me feel that person is feeling shame and guilt within themselves.
It took me so long to get over the depression that I am not going to be the same, or be able to do the same things. I was miserable. I find the things that didn't work for me when I was on pills work for me now......why? because I was introduced to the drugs first before the other options. Now the other options take effort and time. We live in an instant gratification world. To put it frankly........We are lazy. My point being that it is so much faster to pop a pill then to decompress, use the tens, and use good posture and common sense. We are dealt the cards and we have to work with it. If I knew nothing of the narcotic's and was given the other options, what I didn't know that came in pill form probably would have worked because I would have not known any better.
I am not saying that people don't need pain meds. for certain conditions.....please. But, they are handed out like candy. I've seen it. Dr's and even Dentists who will refill for minor procedures for months or who knows how long. Many don't give a ****....I had a root canal and got vicodin refills for 2 months?.......I just did it for someone else, but he kept refilling???.......that's what ticks me off, and because they know you can't die from withdrawal.........they don't give rats a$$
My doctor initially was going to prescribe me Oxy before trying something less potent ....I refused and then he gave me darvocet and I was still in pain, but it was tolerable.
I think so much is mental. When we are told we have a disease, esp. degenerate disc disease, which most of us have or will have.....and don't find out until we get injured. I think it causes depression......"I have a disease".......and it gives us even more reason to tell ourselves its ok to pop pills.
Not meant to tick anyone off. Just expressing myself because as you said Jan, this is a fire issue for me.
Nauty..............
We hear you, you're not invisible. I love the way you express yourself. I'm sure others appreciate your style too.
Nick
Nick
I feel invisible on this forum,I guess because I'm new. I've seen my words reused by others and then commented on, but wonder if anyone 'hears' mine. paranoia from narcotics? ha! I agree with everyone's statements, just have had a problem with attitudes. However, as I stated in a previous post, I do appreciate naughty's admission of having sounded judgmental and being sorry for it. I truly appreciate that, as it takes a lot to admit to having been overly critical. Dr.,you bring up an important point, in that, when someone withdraws from a narcotic, pain is increased, and it is often difficult to judge where the pain is coming from. In an earlier post, I described the incident when I was in the hospital, and while there I asked and tried to reduce my narcotics. When asked how my pain was, I told every doctor that it was bad, but I wanted to see if it was from the original source or from the withdrawal response. It was when my pain dr. accidentally localized the pain to a very specific place by moving a leg (accidentally), showing that the pain was coming from one of the most painful original places - SI joint. It is sharp, localized, and severe.The smallest of movement caused extreme sharp intolerable pain to which I responded with an involuntary scream! (I'd been lying motionless in bed til that point). But since then, I've developed other disease states that create obvious, chronic, and progressive pain. My labs, MRIs, CATscans, etc. all paint a picture of someone in pain. Not one doctor has said anything other than what I already do. "Do your best to take the least possible, and take the long acting before short acting". My Pain management doctor has told my PCP that I need to be "treated aggressively for pain, as my condition is progressive and incurable. I can't speak for others. Some don't have that kind of obvious dx., but it doesn't make their pain any less real.
Having said everything I've said in this and previous posts - I believe many many people abuse prescription pain meds. I believe some know they don't need them and seek them anyway, and some, like the Dr. said are no longer able to tell whether their pain is from a pathological process, or the drug withdrawal itself. (which is also pathological - just not permanent) My only point is that NO ONE - not doctors, not friends and relative, and certainly not strangers on the net, can tell how much pain someone else is in. Not just how much pain a person FEELS given the SAME stimulus as someone else - but rather how much actual adverse nerve stimulation a person is experiencing. So many try to make it be about what someone can tolerate. How about realizing that some are just really having more pain than you.
Perhaps its human nature to try to imagine everyone experiencing life the same way you do, but the fact is, just because you've had a broken bone, doesn't mean you know what it feels like for someone else's broken bone. Yours might be greenstick and the other person's a compound open fracture, with crushing and massive jagged exit wound - WITH INFECTION! Kind of like a man saying he knows about child birth because he's had a large bowel movement! Pain is not Pain is not Pain etc. There are degrees. Beyond that, there are differences in the nerve transmission - frequency of impulses, speed of travel, # of nerve endings etc. Then there's the perception of pain with differences in the cognitive experience of pain - which is physiological, not psychological. Lastly, there's a psychological component. With all of these differences, it makes it very difficult for both the doctor AND the patient.
In a perfect world, there would be compassion and using the benefit of the doubt, narcotics given, for a patient presenting with serious pain, followed by giving the all possible alternative coping strategies and therapeutic methods of treating the pain prior to continued narcotic therapy. If proper trials with other methods are tried, and there appears to be a legitimate need, the patient should receive a referral to a pain specialist and treated with compassion and dignity - not as a suspected criminal. Those thought to be abusing the drugs, should be monitored and weaned off if necessary. It is something that should be between the patient and the doctor.
One thing I've never heard of is so many people having no knowledge of narcotic's addictive potential and the distinction between tolerance, dependence, and addiction. The terms are both the same and vastly different. Motivation and intent make them different - NOT the physiological processes. Dosing strengths and frequencies also increase or decrease likelihood of abuse. That's why the warnings to not take more or more frequently than prescribed are on the bottle and in the Rx leaflet.
Check out my profile for those interested. I've been on the MS, GP, Autoimmune and connective tissue forums due to having Systemic Sclerosis w/ Pulmonary Hypertension and Barrett's and Scleroderma Esophagus as well as having osteoporosis, and other forums, but am new to this one. My sympathies go out to all who share my struggle with pain - no matter how you're dealing with it. What's important is that you each find something that works for you.
Thank you naughty for your willingness to listen to others on a topic you're passionate about. And thanks to all on the forum, as I enjoy learning how others are dealing with this terrible issue.
Blessings, Jan
Having said everything I've said in this and previous posts - I believe many many people abuse prescription pain meds. I believe some know they don't need them and seek them anyway, and some, like the Dr. said are no longer able to tell whether their pain is from a pathological process, or the drug withdrawal itself. (which is also pathological - just not permanent) My only point is that NO ONE - not doctors, not friends and relative, and certainly not strangers on the net, can tell how much pain someone else is in. Not just how much pain a person FEELS given the SAME stimulus as someone else - but rather how much actual adverse nerve stimulation a person is experiencing. So many try to make it be about what someone can tolerate. How about realizing that some are just really having more pain than you.
Perhaps its human nature to try to imagine everyone experiencing life the same way you do, but the fact is, just because you've had a broken bone, doesn't mean you know what it feels like for someone else's broken bone. Yours might be greenstick and the other person's a compound open fracture, with crushing and massive jagged exit wound - WITH INFECTION! Kind of like a man saying he knows about child birth because he's had a large bowel movement! Pain is not Pain is not Pain etc. There are degrees. Beyond that, there are differences in the nerve transmission - frequency of impulses, speed of travel, # of nerve endings etc. Then there's the perception of pain with differences in the cognitive experience of pain - which is physiological, not psychological. Lastly, there's a psychological component. With all of these differences, it makes it very difficult for both the doctor AND the patient.
In a perfect world, there would be compassion and using the benefit of the doubt, narcotics given, for a patient presenting with serious pain, followed by giving the all possible alternative coping strategies and therapeutic methods of treating the pain prior to continued narcotic therapy. If proper trials with other methods are tried, and there appears to be a legitimate need, the patient should receive a referral to a pain specialist and treated with compassion and dignity - not as a suspected criminal. Those thought to be abusing the drugs, should be monitored and weaned off if necessary. It is something that should be between the patient and the doctor.
One thing I've never heard of is so many people having no knowledge of narcotic's addictive potential and the distinction between tolerance, dependence, and addiction. The terms are both the same and vastly different. Motivation and intent make them different - NOT the physiological processes. Dosing strengths and frequencies also increase or decrease likelihood of abuse. That's why the warnings to not take more or more frequently than prescribed are on the bottle and in the Rx leaflet.
Check out my profile for those interested. I've been on the MS, GP, Autoimmune and connective tissue forums due to having Systemic Sclerosis w/ Pulmonary Hypertension and Barrett's and Scleroderma Esophagus as well as having osteoporosis, and other forums, but am new to this one. My sympathies go out to all who share my struggle with pain - no matter how you're dealing with it. What's important is that you each find something that works for you.
Thank you naughty for your willingness to listen to others on a topic you're passionate about. And thanks to all on the forum, as I enjoy learning how others are dealing with this terrible issue.
Blessings, Jan
all i'm concerned about is that the few who really need them(and i mean really)get them . It is difficult to listen to people say that nobody should take them after i have been through every possible alternate treatment over the last 18-19 years.
i do not hunt for pills from any sources(like other peoples medicine cabinets, nor the streets). I simply describe my pain to my dr and just want to be helped in a responsible way(for me).
I don't mind at all that people have different opinions to mine, I even defend thier rights to their opinion, but that changes when people start actively campainging to have my quality of life reduced to zero.
I have never said that i think dr's should hand out pills willy nilly.
yes i think they should be available short term to people in acute pain(accident victims, broken legs etc) and long term to people who have EXHAUSTED all other means).
So long as it's explained well and the patients understand the risks etc.
There ARE responsible dr's who prescribe them responsibly to patients who take them responsibly. why make them suffer?
i do not hunt for pills from any sources(like other peoples medicine cabinets, nor the streets). I simply describe my pain to my dr and just want to be helped in a responsible way(for me).
I don't mind at all that people have different opinions to mine, I even defend thier rights to their opinion, but that changes when people start actively campainging to have my quality of life reduced to zero.
I have never said that i think dr's should hand out pills willy nilly.
yes i think they should be available short term to people in acute pain(accident victims, broken legs etc) and long term to people who have EXHAUSTED all other means).
So long as it's explained well and the patients understand the risks etc.
There ARE responsible dr's who prescribe them responsibly to patients who take them responsibly. why make them suffer?
Thank you Dr. J. You made the point that I was trying to make. As stated before, I am not one who is the most gifted with words, but that is all I was trying to say. Thank you.
Nauty.................
Nauty.................
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
My two cents worth: There are significant differences between doctors on the issue of narcotic prescribing. I just came from giving a talk to a group of docs and nurse prescribers-- after the formal talk I had a nice discussion with a nurse from a regional pain clinic. We talked about how her clinic sees the patients that no other doc will see-- people with chronic pain who need some amount of narcotic to make it through each day. There are few doctors who will do the work of treating chronic pain the way it should be treated-- who will prescribe pain meds but provide the education and monitoring necessary to prevent problems from developing from tolerance and dependence. Instead there are the docs who simply prescribe anything that the patient asks for, without taking the time to determine whether the options to narcotics have been tried... then there are many docs who simply say (they boast when they say this) 'I don't give pain pills to ANYONE'-- as if they are doing society a favor by saying no! My point is that there is not one type of doctor, and there are more 'types' than the stereotypes that I just described.
Second, the vast majority of opiate addicts do not use opiates 'recreationally'. That implies that the addict is somehow enjoying his/her use. That stage of use is very short; within a couple months most addicts have developed a situation where they are using to avoid being sick, and they are wishing that they had never started using. I realize that the term 'recreation' is intended to separate the 'legitimate' from the 'non-legitimate' users, but that difference is not as great as you think. The people who present to me for treatment of opiate dependence most often started their opiates by filling a prescription for a painful injury, and then found that they couldn't stop taking them. Instead they used the pain pills that were laying around the house from prior surgeries, then they raided the medicine cabinet of mom and dad's place, then they started doc shopping or ordering off the internet.
Third, and finally... even the line between 'real' pain and 'fake' pain is often difficult to find. Many patients who are addicted to opiates, when asked if they 'really' have back pain, say 'I don't really know anymoe... I THINK so'. The pain becomes something that seems to come from inside their heads in a way, and they start to question whether they are really hurting or whether instead they are afraid of withdrawal, and so they are taking pain pills for that.
Of course, there ARE patients with true, severe pain... for whom opiates are a clear necessity. But there are fewer of THOSE patients than there are patients who fall into the 'confused' category... at least in my experience.
Second, the vast majority of opiate addicts do not use opiates 'recreationally'. That implies that the addict is somehow enjoying his/her use. That stage of use is very short; within a couple months most addicts have developed a situation where they are using to avoid being sick, and they are wishing that they had never started using. I realize that the term 'recreation' is intended to separate the 'legitimate' from the 'non-legitimate' users, but that difference is not as great as you think. The people who present to me for treatment of opiate dependence most often started their opiates by filling a prescription for a painful injury, and then found that they couldn't stop taking them. Instead they used the pain pills that were laying around the house from prior surgeries, then they raided the medicine cabinet of mom and dad's place, then they started doc shopping or ordering off the internet.
Third, and finally... even the line between 'real' pain and 'fake' pain is often difficult to find. Many patients who are addicted to opiates, when asked if they 'really' have back pain, say 'I don't really know anymoe... I THINK so'. The pain becomes something that seems to come from inside their heads in a way, and they start to question whether they are really hurting or whether instead they are afraid of withdrawal, and so they are taking pain pills for that.
Of course, there ARE patients with true, severe pain... for whom opiates are a clear necessity. But there are fewer of THOSE patients than there are patients who fall into the 'confused' category... at least in my experience.
I totally agree that everyone is different on how they deal with pain. Maybe that is the core issue. One person's 4 could be a 10 to another. I am a chronic pain patient and all I am trying to say is eventually you will be cut-off of them and left to find your way. I have days where I can't move my hands, my legs, and my back feels like a 5 alarm fire. I can't work either. I found a way to bring in income where I don't have to go to work, as it would be impossible. I could get government assistance, but choose not to. Maybe I am just being harsh cause I can do it........we are all different, and I am not taking this into consideration and I apologize. I really do. I am a believer that you don't judge until you have walked in others shoes. I just have negativity against these drugs personally and was not taking that into consideration.
Its not all about me. But, I do have a right to my opinions.
I wish you all well.
luv,
Nauty
I stand firm on my belief of these drugs, but truly meant not to judge anyone, and I feel that's the way it came off. I have no right to do that. I do apologize for being so hard headed, but I have seen and heard so much that it enforced these strong opinions.
I hope whatever choices each and everyone of you choose is the best choice and wish you all the best and the quality of life you deserve.
Luv,
Nauty..........
Its not all about me. But, I do have a right to my opinions.
I wish you all well.
luv,
Nauty
I stand firm on my belief of these drugs, but truly meant not to judge anyone, and I feel that's the way it came off. I have no right to do that. I do apologize for being so hard headed, but I have seen and heard so much that it enforced these strong opinions.
I hope whatever choices each and everyone of you choose is the best choice and wish you all the best and the quality of life you deserve.
Luv,
Nauty..........
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