Aa
Happy Holidays all - intresting info on psychiatrists
Check out these links, and they wonder why I hate psychiatrists.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iIydrSMyNq0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ziOSaHWM0VU&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iIydrSMyNq0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ziOSaHWM0VU&feature=related
...
Now let's add some fuel to the fire. Two words: Managed Care. This abomination came about because we not only want what we want -we want it free or cheap. And because medical treatments have been so long a benefit of employment (or of unemployment, if state-funded) we expect insurance to pay for it. Why? Because it has ALWAYS paid for it, and we think are entitled to it. I am amazed, aghast, appalled by folks who have no problem dropping $2,000 for a fancy TV set, $40,000 for a sexy car and $200.00 for dinner -and then gripe because medical their co-pay is $1,000 a year! Insurance, obviously, has to be paid for, so whether by employer contribution, deduction from paycheck, or taxes, more and more goes to insurance to pay for the rising cost of healthcare. The answer? Managed Care! A system of gate-keepers who decide what medicines you can take and what medical people you can see and what treatments they'll pay for. The idea, here, is that you receive "appropriate" care that is "medically necessary." And who decides exactly WHAT is medically necessary? Not your doctor. Not you. The Gatekeeper. Naturally, the doctors, while not always the brightest lights in the chandelier, are smart enough to understand that HOW they bill for reimbursement has much to do with how much they can make, so an entire industry dedicated to getting the maximum possible reimbursement has been born -and guess what? Its successful! The doctors are still making a few bucks. One way the doctors have adapted is to see more and more patients. Managed Care may mean they can't bill as much, but if you can see more people, it all comes out. And that is why doctors are pressured to do things faster -and that means shorter visits and MORE PILLS.
This is the context in which the "system" operates. Stinks, doesn't it? It really is not about the psychiatrists committing a fraud. It would be so juch easier if that were the case.
OK, you say, "Because all they want is their kick back from the pharmaceutical companies and they need to make sure they are able to support there million dollar houses and the luxury cars." If you will be kind enough to refer me to the documentary evidence naming the specific indivduals who are receiving kick-backs, I'll do my best to get them into court. From what you write, it seems you refer to all of them -every last one. I just have to believe you know that is highly unlikely.
Natural methods versus other methods. The broken leg. No anesthetic for the surgey? Nothing for pain afterwards (not even a baby aspirin)? No antibiotic?
Sore throat. If you do absolutely nothing it will also get better. Whether Jewish Pencillin or medication, its all about relieving discomfort. Your body does the work.
Panic. I've done the various drugs, withdrew with minimal discomfort, and the hard work of talk therapy for 2 years. The drugs helped knock down the terror and phsyical symptoms, and the talk helped me adjust thinking and understanding. Together, they've enabled me to live a happy and productive life. And of course, it is I who had to do the work.
As much as we can -especially on this forum- I think we must be careful to avoid generalizations which attack the credibility of a health resource, or, on the other hand, create expectations of it that are unreasonable. Many folks here -as panic and anxiety people- really hang on every word and want answers. If any of us say anything that might keep anyone from availing themselves of a helpful resource, we've become part of the problem.
Agreed -you've had an abyssmal experience with professional psychiatry. But others have had positive experiences; and all should be able to do what works for them. I hope you agree.
Now let's add some fuel to the fire. Two words: Managed Care. This abomination came about because we not only want what we want -we want it free or cheap. And because medical treatments have been so long a benefit of employment (or of unemployment, if state-funded) we expect insurance to pay for it. Why? Because it has ALWAYS paid for it, and we think are entitled to it. I am amazed, aghast, appalled by folks who have no problem dropping $2,000 for a fancy TV set, $40,000 for a sexy car and $200.00 for dinner -and then gripe because medical their co-pay is $1,000 a year! Insurance, obviously, has to be paid for, so whether by employer contribution, deduction from paycheck, or taxes, more and more goes to insurance to pay for the rising cost of healthcare. The answer? Managed Care! A system of gate-keepers who decide what medicines you can take and what medical people you can see and what treatments they'll pay for. The idea, here, is that you receive "appropriate" care that is "medically necessary." And who decides exactly WHAT is medically necessary? Not your doctor. Not you. The Gatekeeper. Naturally, the doctors, while not always the brightest lights in the chandelier, are smart enough to understand that HOW they bill for reimbursement has much to do with how much they can make, so an entire industry dedicated to getting the maximum possible reimbursement has been born -and guess what? Its successful! The doctors are still making a few bucks. One way the doctors have adapted is to see more and more patients. Managed Care may mean they can't bill as much, but if you can see more people, it all comes out. And that is why doctors are pressured to do things faster -and that means shorter visits and MORE PILLS.
This is the context in which the "system" operates. Stinks, doesn't it? It really is not about the psychiatrists committing a fraud. It would be so juch easier if that were the case.
OK, you say, "Because all they want is their kick back from the pharmaceutical companies and they need to make sure they are able to support there million dollar houses and the luxury cars." If you will be kind enough to refer me to the documentary evidence naming the specific indivduals who are receiving kick-backs, I'll do my best to get them into court. From what you write, it seems you refer to all of them -every last one. I just have to believe you know that is highly unlikely.
Natural methods versus other methods. The broken leg. No anesthetic for the surgey? Nothing for pain afterwards (not even a baby aspirin)? No antibiotic?
Sore throat. If you do absolutely nothing it will also get better. Whether Jewish Pencillin or medication, its all about relieving discomfort. Your body does the work.
Panic. I've done the various drugs, withdrew with minimal discomfort, and the hard work of talk therapy for 2 years. The drugs helped knock down the terror and phsyical symptoms, and the talk helped me adjust thinking and understanding. Together, they've enabled me to live a happy and productive life. And of course, it is I who had to do the work.
As much as we can -especially on this forum- I think we must be careful to avoid generalizations which attack the credibility of a health resource, or, on the other hand, create expectations of it that are unreasonable. Many folks here -as panic and anxiety people- really hang on every word and want answers. If any of us say anything that might keep anyone from availing themselves of a helpful resource, we've become part of the problem.
Agreed -you've had an abyssmal experience with professional psychiatry. But others have had positive experiences; and all should be able to do what works for them. I hope you agree.
Thanks for the response. Quite obviously, you've had bad experiences with the shrinks, so the video has high meaning and validity for you. And quite obviously, my experience has been positive, so the video leaves me non-plussed. I hope you will agree that it is erroneous to condemn the entire profession (or to uphold it as faultless) based on our own individual experiences alone. Likewise, we border on doing a disservice to others by campaigning for one extreme or the other.
I hope you will also agree that what was introduced as evidence of fraud is not at all evidence of fraud; certainly not a fraud perpetrated by the entire population of psychiatrists.
I'm more sympathetic with your discomfort regarding medication. You report prescriptions being issued within the first 5 minutes of a visit so I assume that is what happened in your case. But it never happened in mine -and we're talking 4 different shrinks in 4 different parts of the country over the course of 40 years. On the contrary, it was all about talking and listening and understanding. Despite this experience, I don't generalize it to the entire profession, because I know through reliable reports and through personal direct knowledge of individuals that there are, indeed, "pill pushers" out there; too many, in my opinion. I would add, however that this tendency is not restricted to the shrinks. On the contrary, I see it more often among "regular" doctors and their assistants, who, perhaps because of a lack of special training, are often too quick to write a script. For example, I am currently under the care of an NP for blood pressure and allergies. She walks into the room carrying her prescriptrion pad like a magic wand. "I can give you something for that," she'll say and pulls out her pen to start writing. I've got to slow her down!
Further to this point, for whatever over-medicating may be going on by psychiatrists, a similar dangerous trend exists as to antibiotics, which are dispensed by the internal medicine people, family docs, etc. As I'm sure you know, the bugs in many hospitals are so powerful they eat penicillin for a snack. What I'm trying to say is that there is, I believe, a general tendency toward pushing a pill instead of some other approach.
That said, and if we can dispense with conspiracy theories for a moment, let's have a look at some other possible factors which tend to support the pill approach -in psychiatry, and everywhere, in medicine and other places, too.
First of all, we (Western culture and the US in particular) live in a world which is dominated by products, services and actvities which are designed as much for comfort, convenience and entertainment as for any practical purpose. Just look around you. Much is promised by those who would have us buy their wares. Just talk to your car and it will play Billy Joel. Good grief. In the world of medicine, people in many cases demand a quick and if possible a permanent fix and more than that, they want convenience and comfort, too. I am amazed by the number of pills people take. Hell, I'm amazed by the number I take (1 for blood pressure, 1 for allergy, 1 to stop smoking, 2 to suppress coughing and 1 tiny aspirin for -for what? I dunno -keeps vampires away or something. And I HATE it. But for years I've tried everything else I could think of to fight year-long allergic reactions to a long list of stuff, and the sneezing, itchy eyes and bad sinuses finally drove me to take pills. And guess what? They work! You'll note the pills I do NOT take -the ones for panic, sleep, anxiety -etc. Don't need them anymore because I had a good therapist, 8 years ago. My point is this: much of what we are offered, medically and in all other ways, is because of what we demand or prefer. By the same token, much of what we demand is conditioned by the advertising and other messages sent by the people who sell to us. It is a viscious cycle which sets the conditions for pushing pills and other "easy" fixes. Agreed? As individuals, we can do it differently and operate by other values, but the fact that I split my own fire wood by hand and bake my own whole grain bread and drive an older and economical basic car (all of this is true) hasn't has much impact on what most other people are doing and want to do.
I hope you will also agree that what was introduced as evidence of fraud is not at all evidence of fraud; certainly not a fraud perpetrated by the entire population of psychiatrists.
I'm more sympathetic with your discomfort regarding medication. You report prescriptions being issued within the first 5 minutes of a visit so I assume that is what happened in your case. But it never happened in mine -and we're talking 4 different shrinks in 4 different parts of the country over the course of 40 years. On the contrary, it was all about talking and listening and understanding. Despite this experience, I don't generalize it to the entire profession, because I know through reliable reports and through personal direct knowledge of individuals that there are, indeed, "pill pushers" out there; too many, in my opinion. I would add, however that this tendency is not restricted to the shrinks. On the contrary, I see it more often among "regular" doctors and their assistants, who, perhaps because of a lack of special training, are often too quick to write a script. For example, I am currently under the care of an NP for blood pressure and allergies. She walks into the room carrying her prescriptrion pad like a magic wand. "I can give you something for that," she'll say and pulls out her pen to start writing. I've got to slow her down!
Further to this point, for whatever over-medicating may be going on by psychiatrists, a similar dangerous trend exists as to antibiotics, which are dispensed by the internal medicine people, family docs, etc. As I'm sure you know, the bugs in many hospitals are so powerful they eat penicillin for a snack. What I'm trying to say is that there is, I believe, a general tendency toward pushing a pill instead of some other approach.
That said, and if we can dispense with conspiracy theories for a moment, let's have a look at some other possible factors which tend to support the pill approach -in psychiatry, and everywhere, in medicine and other places, too.
First of all, we (Western culture and the US in particular) live in a world which is dominated by products, services and actvities which are designed as much for comfort, convenience and entertainment as for any practical purpose. Just look around you. Much is promised by those who would have us buy their wares. Just talk to your car and it will play Billy Joel. Good grief. In the world of medicine, people in many cases demand a quick and if possible a permanent fix and more than that, they want convenience and comfort, too. I am amazed by the number of pills people take. Hell, I'm amazed by the number I take (1 for blood pressure, 1 for allergy, 1 to stop smoking, 2 to suppress coughing and 1 tiny aspirin for -for what? I dunno -keeps vampires away or something. And I HATE it. But for years I've tried everything else I could think of to fight year-long allergic reactions to a long list of stuff, and the sneezing, itchy eyes and bad sinuses finally drove me to take pills. And guess what? They work! You'll note the pills I do NOT take -the ones for panic, sleep, anxiety -etc. Don't need them anymore because I had a good therapist, 8 years ago. My point is this: much of what we are offered, medically and in all other ways, is because of what we demand or prefer. By the same token, much of what we demand is conditioned by the advertising and other messages sent by the people who sell to us. It is a viscious cycle which sets the conditions for pushing pills and other "easy" fixes. Agreed? As individuals, we can do it differently and operate by other values, but the fact that I split my own fire wood by hand and bake my own whole grain bread and drive an older and economical basic car (all of this is true) hasn't has much impact on what most other people are doing and want to do.
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“First of all, I notice what is NOT there. No information about who produced it, who paid for it and why it was done. Anyone know?”
This was produced by three psychiatrists, two ex pharmaceutical reps and two general practitioners all located in the USA.
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“A couple of problems, here. First of all, what IS a cure? What do we mean when we say that our panic and anxiety has been "cured?" Presumably, we mean that we no longer suffer from them, they stop occurring. But, how do we know they really have stopped? What if they come back (now There’s a panic question!). Would we then say that we were "cured" for awhile, and are now "sick" again? Or would we say that we were never actually cured? It is very much a personal question. Regardless of the answer, I'm not at all sure what credentials the producer of the video has to support THEIR claims, either, for that matter.
A cure is something in my eyes that is healed and never returns; simple example, a cut on your arm that heals. I would say that if the panic had disappeared for a while, then they come back for a while; most likely do to medication which in my eyes is not curing the issue it just masks it.
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“The next problem is that the shrinks themselves -everyone interviewed on the video and every shrink I've ever known (many) have never claimed to cure anyone. Can anyone here say they've talked with a psychiatrist who said they would CURE you? I doubt it. They may and they do say, "I think I can help," but none have ever offered me a cure. So, where's the fraud? And we certainly have testimony from people right here on the forum that their sessions with a psychiatrist are, indeed, helpful. That was certainly my experience.”
I can honestly say that I have been to 4 different psychiatrists and I was told by three that if I were to take medication it would cure my condition and not once did any off them recommend CBT. Me personally, I have been put on 4 different meds and have been weaned off of 3 of them improperly. Which if needed I could post you my misery with these so called doctors.
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“These are "cured" in the sense that they go away (most of the time) but they are cured by our bodies themselves.”
Exactly so why is medication need for Panic or Anxiety, when if you had the proper diet, sleep and exercise this can be cured by the bodies themselves. Just like people with high blood pressure or high cholesterol. The proper foods and exercise can cure this. As well as managing stress in your life.
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“Why single out the shrinks? What's up with that?”
Why you ask, because they are so quick to hand out a prescription and forget to explain the side effects and when it comes to the withdrawal process, 90% of them are very uneducated when it comes to the weaning process.
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“But the same rule applies here as applies in plain old physical, broken leg, sore throat medicine: the cure comes from the patient -where it has ALWAYS come from. The therapist helps you talk to your own brain so you can get it done, and may also prescribe drugs to stop the mental "bleeding" while the task of therapy is underway.”
First off, it is unfair to compare a sore throat and broken leg to some one who is suffering from panic or phobia and you are exactly right, the therapy does help you rethink and reassure yourself that you are not ill. I would like you to introduce me to a psychiatrist who is willing to talk to you and not sit in the office for 15 minutes (When the whole 15 minutes is what meds would you like) and then you are walking out of the office on your way to the pharmacist to get your medication not knowing what lies ahead.
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“Anyone got a problem with that?”
So my answer is yes I have a problem with that. Why prescribe medication so quickly, why not try to do it naturally. Because all they want is their kick back from the pharmaceutical companies and they need to make sure they are able to support there million dollar houses and the luxury cars.
Broken Leg – Surgery, time to heal, then physical therapy. You are better
Sore Throat – Tea with honey. Some vitamin C, chicken soup. All better
Panic - Paxil, Klonopin, Valium – withdrawals, damage of the nervous system, can’t come off the meds just a vicious cycle which in that case can take control of your life.
I am not saying that all meds are bad, but these physiatrists should try a couple of sessions with talking and doing some natural things. Not start prescribing meds within the first 5 minutes of the first session. Your mind became weak for what ever reason, your mind should be able to heal with the proper care.
Friends, if ever there was a time for CRITICAL analysis, this is it. I'm not sure who produced the stories, and why, but the point-of-view is -as you will see- very negative on psychiatry. Let's have a closer look at what in the videos:
First of all, I notice what is NOT there. No information about who produced it, who paid for it and why it was done. Anyone know?
It is interesting to me that the primary source of testimony that psychiatry has not produced a single cure comes from the psychiatrists themselves. This concurs with what my own psychiatrist told me and has been repeated by every respectable practitioner I've ever known. From this, the video jumps to the conclusion that psychiatry is therefore a fraud. Pretty big jump.
A couple of problems, here. First of all, what IS a cure? What do we mean when we say that our panic and anxiety has been "cured?" Presumably, we mean that we no longer suffer from them, they stop occurring. But, how do we know they really have stopped? What if they come back (now THERE's a panic question!). Would we then say that we were "cured" for awhile, and are now "sick" again? Or would we say that we were never actually cured? It is very much a personal question. Regardless of the answer, I'm not at all sure what credentials the producer of the video have to support THEIR claims, either, for that matter.
The next problem is that the shrinks themselves -everyone interviewed on the video and every shrink I've ever known (many) have never claimed to cure anyone. Can anyone here say they've talked with a psychiatrist who said they would CURE you? I doubt it. They may and they do say, "I think I can help," but none have ever offered me a cure. So, where's the fraud? And we certainly have testimony from people right here on the forum that their sessions with a psychiatrist are, indeed, helpful. That was certainly my experience.
For that matter, what branch of medicine CAN claim a cure for anything? The fact is that since humans began chewing leaves that made them feel good, very, very few actual cures for anything have been accomplished. Has polio been "cured?" No, the virus has been mostly killed off, but no one who had polio was cured of it. What about common childhood ailments, such as measles and mumps? These are "cured" in the sense that they go away (most of the time) but they are cured by our bodies themselves. Of course, any sickness can compromise our general health and make us targets for other diseases, so modern medicine helps prop up our defenses and thereby lowers the lethality of diseases that once killed a lot of people. How about cancer? Certain kinds, such as childhood leukemia, have what scientists call a high "cure rate." Thus 80% of the kids with leukemia get better when treated for it with conventional medicine. We can say, in such cases, that an indvidual patient was "cured," meaning we got rid of the disease in that person -but with one in 5 still "uncured," we certainly can't claim a victory over this kind of cancer. There may, in fact, be some absolute cures -but someone will need to tell me what they are because I can't think of a single one. My point is that since cures are few and far between in general, why single out the shrinks? What's up with that?
The stories also say that the system of identifying and classifying mental illness is a fraud; that the diseases and disorders are "made up" so the shrinks have something to treat and bill for. While I would dispute the fraud motive, I certainly can appreciate the criticism of the classification system. It is -as I have elsewhere said- an imperfect way of approximating mental problems. And, it is a work in progress. Given the subject matter: the thoughts and feellings of people (and the behaviors that flow from them) it is easy to understand the limitations of any attempt at classification. That said, no claim is made that the dermatologists make up a book of conditions about the ailments they treat -and, as we all know, their patients rarely are cured and also are rarely killed by a dermatological problem -an excellent source of continued income. Likewise, specialties of every kind -medicine, insurance, restaurants, trucking -you name it- all publish material explaining what they do, how it is done, how it is labeled and classified and how it is paid for. So, if the shrinks did NOT put together their manual of codes and classifications -who should do it? The brick layers?
And so, I was left kind of wondering what the point of the video really was.
I can understand how people who are desparately uncomfortable and fearful -such as many panic victims- would want for somebody -ANYBODY- to have a cure. Lord knows, I did. And I can understand how patients will warp that hope into their expectations of a therapist. But the same rule applies here as applies in plain old phsyical, broken leg, sore throat medicine: the cure comes from the patient -where it has ALWAYS come from. The therapist helps you talk to your own brain so you can get it done, and may also prescribe drugs to stop the mental "bleeding" while the task of therapy is underway.
Anyone got a problem with that?
First of all, I notice what is NOT there. No information about who produced it, who paid for it and why it was done. Anyone know?
It is interesting to me that the primary source of testimony that psychiatry has not produced a single cure comes from the psychiatrists themselves. This concurs with what my own psychiatrist told me and has been repeated by every respectable practitioner I've ever known. From this, the video jumps to the conclusion that psychiatry is therefore a fraud. Pretty big jump.
A couple of problems, here. First of all, what IS a cure? What do we mean when we say that our panic and anxiety has been "cured?" Presumably, we mean that we no longer suffer from them, they stop occurring. But, how do we know they really have stopped? What if they come back (now THERE's a panic question!). Would we then say that we were "cured" for awhile, and are now "sick" again? Or would we say that we were never actually cured? It is very much a personal question. Regardless of the answer, I'm not at all sure what credentials the producer of the video have to support THEIR claims, either, for that matter.
The next problem is that the shrinks themselves -everyone interviewed on the video and every shrink I've ever known (many) have never claimed to cure anyone. Can anyone here say they've talked with a psychiatrist who said they would CURE you? I doubt it. They may and they do say, "I think I can help," but none have ever offered me a cure. So, where's the fraud? And we certainly have testimony from people right here on the forum that their sessions with a psychiatrist are, indeed, helpful. That was certainly my experience.
For that matter, what branch of medicine CAN claim a cure for anything? The fact is that since humans began chewing leaves that made them feel good, very, very few actual cures for anything have been accomplished. Has polio been "cured?" No, the virus has been mostly killed off, but no one who had polio was cured of it. What about common childhood ailments, such as measles and mumps? These are "cured" in the sense that they go away (most of the time) but they are cured by our bodies themselves. Of course, any sickness can compromise our general health and make us targets for other diseases, so modern medicine helps prop up our defenses and thereby lowers the lethality of diseases that once killed a lot of people. How about cancer? Certain kinds, such as childhood leukemia, have what scientists call a high "cure rate." Thus 80% of the kids with leukemia get better when treated for it with conventional medicine. We can say, in such cases, that an indvidual patient was "cured," meaning we got rid of the disease in that person -but with one in 5 still "uncured," we certainly can't claim a victory over this kind of cancer. There may, in fact, be some absolute cures -but someone will need to tell me what they are because I can't think of a single one. My point is that since cures are few and far between in general, why single out the shrinks? What's up with that?
The stories also say that the system of identifying and classifying mental illness is a fraud; that the diseases and disorders are "made up" so the shrinks have something to treat and bill for. While I would dispute the fraud motive, I certainly can appreciate the criticism of the classification system. It is -as I have elsewhere said- an imperfect way of approximating mental problems. And, it is a work in progress. Given the subject matter: the thoughts and feellings of people (and the behaviors that flow from them) it is easy to understand the limitations of any attempt at classification. That said, no claim is made that the dermatologists make up a book of conditions about the ailments they treat -and, as we all know, their patients rarely are cured and also are rarely killed by a dermatological problem -an excellent source of continued income. Likewise, specialties of every kind -medicine, insurance, restaurants, trucking -you name it- all publish material explaining what they do, how it is done, how it is labeled and classified and how it is paid for. So, if the shrinks did NOT put together their manual of codes and classifications -who should do it? The brick layers?
And so, I was left kind of wondering what the point of the video really was.
I can understand how people who are desparately uncomfortable and fearful -such as many panic victims- would want for somebody -ANYBODY- to have a cure. Lord knows, I did. And I can understand how patients will warp that hope into their expectations of a therapist. But the same rule applies here as applies in plain old phsyical, broken leg, sore throat medicine: the cure comes from the patient -where it has ALWAYS come from. The therapist helps you talk to your own brain so you can get it done, and may also prescribe drugs to stop the mental "bleeding" while the task of therapy is underway.
Anyone got a problem with that?
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