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ACLU Threatens N.J. High School With Legal Action Over Graduation at Christian-Owned Site
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/17/aclu-threatens-legal-action-nj-high-school-amendment-dispute/
A New Jersey high school with a 70-year tradition of hosting graduation ceremonies in a historic auditorium is standing firm against legal threats from the American Civil Liberties Union, which claims the event violates the separation of church and state because of the Christian-owned site's religious displays.
For generations, graduates of Neptune High School have walked down the aisle of the Great Auditorium in Ocean Grove, where the impressive 6,500-seat venue dominates the landscape of one of the area’s most historic beach towns. Built in 1894, the auditorium is owned and operated by the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, a Methodist group that owns not just the building, but all of the land beneath every home and structure in town.
The ACLU of New Jersey threatened legal action against the Neptune school district after an attendee at last year’s graduation ceremony took offense to the building’s religious symbols and Christian-based references -- among them a 20-foot white cross above the auditorium’s entrance. The ACLU asked the school to remove or cover up the cross and three other religious signs, arguing their visibility during a public school event is a First Amendment violation.
School officials responded by agreeing to change the graduation program to remove the student-led invocation and two hymns -- one titled “Onward Christian Soldiers” -- to rid the ceremony of any religious references.
“The program was not of a religious nature -- it was more tradition than anything else,” said Neptune Public Schools Superintendent David Mooij. “But we decided we would change the program and delete the things this individual found offensive.”
Removing or covering up the cross was another matter. The Camp Association said it could not cover the cross, said to have been a gift from movie director Woody Allen, who used the auditorium during shooting for the 1980 film "Stardust Memories." Nor would they cover up the two illuminated indoor signs – “Holiest to the Lord” and “So Be Ye Holy” – which are said to be the oldest operating electric signs in America.
“The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association is a Christian ministry, and we can’t change who we are,” said Scott Hoffman, the group’s chief operating officer. “We want this tradition to keep going as badly as anyone, but not at the expense of who we are.”
Mooij said the ACLU then requested that the school change its venue for the June 17 graduation – a move he said isn’t feasible. “We already printed 3,000 tickets, and there’s no comparable size venue anywhere around us.”
Mooij said the school board received a letter on Thursday from the ACLU saying they would “likely have to take legal recourse” if their demands to cover the cross and signs were not met.
An ACLU spokeswoman would not comment on what, if any, legal action is pending, saying only that the organization is working to resolve the matter through negotiations with the school.
The Great Auditorium, a nationally recognized landmark, is steeped in history. The building has hosted Ulysses S. Grant and six other U.S. presidents, as well as 27 of New Jersey’s governors. Mark Twain was a member of the auditorium’s board of directors, and religious leaders like the Rev. Billy Graham have spoken there.
The auditorium also functions as a concert venue for many secular events and has hosted acts as varied as the Beach Boys, Frank Sinatra Jr., and Peter, Paul and Mary.
As for now, Mooij said the school has every intention of sticking with its graduation plans.
“There’s a lot of tradition in this community about using this building,” he said. “We’re hoping that it could be resolved through negotiations,” he said, “But we aren’t there yet.”
A New Jersey high school with a 70-year tradition of hosting graduation ceremonies in a historic auditorium is standing firm against legal threats from the American Civil Liberties Union, which claims the event violates the separation of church and state because of the Christian-owned site's religious displays.
For generations, graduates of Neptune High School have walked down the aisle of the Great Auditorium in Ocean Grove, where the impressive 6,500-seat venue dominates the landscape of one of the area’s most historic beach towns. Built in 1894, the auditorium is owned and operated by the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, a Methodist group that owns not just the building, but all of the land beneath every home and structure in town.
The ACLU of New Jersey threatened legal action against the Neptune school district after an attendee at last year’s graduation ceremony took offense to the building’s religious symbols and Christian-based references -- among them a 20-foot white cross above the auditorium’s entrance. The ACLU asked the school to remove or cover up the cross and three other religious signs, arguing their visibility during a public school event is a First Amendment violation.
School officials responded by agreeing to change the graduation program to remove the student-led invocation and two hymns -- one titled “Onward Christian Soldiers” -- to rid the ceremony of any religious references.
“The program was not of a religious nature -- it was more tradition than anything else,” said Neptune Public Schools Superintendent David Mooij. “But we decided we would change the program and delete the things this individual found offensive.”
Removing or covering up the cross was another matter. The Camp Association said it could not cover the cross, said to have been a gift from movie director Woody Allen, who used the auditorium during shooting for the 1980 film "Stardust Memories." Nor would they cover up the two illuminated indoor signs – “Holiest to the Lord” and “So Be Ye Holy” – which are said to be the oldest operating electric signs in America.
“The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association is a Christian ministry, and we can’t change who we are,” said Scott Hoffman, the group’s chief operating officer. “We want this tradition to keep going as badly as anyone, but not at the expense of who we are.”
Mooij said the ACLU then requested that the school change its venue for the June 17 graduation – a move he said isn’t feasible. “We already printed 3,000 tickets, and there’s no comparable size venue anywhere around us.”
Mooij said the school board received a letter on Thursday from the ACLU saying they would “likely have to take legal recourse” if their demands to cover the cross and signs were not met.
An ACLU spokeswoman would not comment on what, if any, legal action is pending, saying only that the organization is working to resolve the matter through negotiations with the school.
The Great Auditorium, a nationally recognized landmark, is steeped in history. The building has hosted Ulysses S. Grant and six other U.S. presidents, as well as 27 of New Jersey’s governors. Mark Twain was a member of the auditorium’s board of directors, and religious leaders like the Rev. Billy Graham have spoken there.
The auditorium also functions as a concert venue for many secular events and has hosted acts as varied as the Beach Boys, Frank Sinatra Jr., and Peter, Paul and Mary.
As for now, Mooij said the school has every intention of sticking with its graduation plans.
“There’s a lot of tradition in this community about using this building,” he said. “We’re hoping that it could be resolved through negotiations,” he said, “But we aren’t there yet.”
Well I suppose its fitting since it is your profile pic.lol
thanks for explaining the (non american) thing since it was rather nosey of me
Ok--got the sister wife thing (thank you both)
thanks for explaining the (non american) thing since it was rather nosey of me
Ok--got the sister wife thing (thank you both)
1) Mixed-breed:
I quite often refer to myself as a "mutt", so it's sort of fitting, don't you think?
I'm British, Iranian, Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Indian (the red-dot kind, not the bows & arrows kind) and Canadian. If you've got a few hours, I'll tell you all about my background!
*My family emigrated to the U.S. when I was 12, so all my formative years have been in the U.S. (Texas, to be exact), so I consider myself an American. I still carry a British passport, as I was born there, and I'm a Green-Card carrying legal alien, so there you go.
2) Recovering-Addict:
10/07/09 is my SOB date, and I'm not saying it's been easy as there have been slips & falls here and there, but here I am, alive & mostly well, to tell about it.
3) Sister-Wife:
I'm pretty sure that's what Mormon's call their multiple wives, is it not? Or is that just the name of the TV show...? Not sure, but it sounded good. It was in reference to ADGAL calling me a polygamist, so I tossed it in at the end, in jest.
And to get back on-topic, I think it's asinine that the ACLU is getting involved in HS graduations. Just this morning, I heard on the radio that there's an agnostic family someplace in Texas (out by San Antonio I think) that's protesting the valedictorian's commencement speech, saying that if it contains the words "God", "Jesus", "Let us pray", or any type of religious inferences, they'll file a lawsuit (and I'm fairly certain I heard that the ACLU is involved and backing them up).
This country was founded on Christian values & religious freedom... I'm not sure why the left is so hell-bent on seeing it eradicated from our lives.
I quite often refer to myself as a "mutt", so it's sort of fitting, don't you think?
I'm British, Iranian, Greek, Italian, Portuguese, Indian (the red-dot kind, not the bows & arrows kind) and Canadian. If you've got a few hours, I'll tell you all about my background!
*My family emigrated to the U.S. when I was 12, so all my formative years have been in the U.S. (Texas, to be exact), so I consider myself an American. I still carry a British passport, as I was born there, and I'm a Green-Card carrying legal alien, so there you go.
2) Recovering-Addict:
10/07/09 is my SOB date, and I'm not saying it's been easy as there have been slips & falls here and there, but here I am, alive & mostly well, to tell about it.
3) Sister-Wife:
I'm pretty sure that's what Mormon's call their multiple wives, is it not? Or is that just the name of the TV show...? Not sure, but it sounded good. It was in reference to ADGAL calling me a polygamist, so I tossed it in at the end, in jest.
And to get back on-topic, I think it's asinine that the ACLU is getting involved in HS graduations. Just this morning, I heard on the radio that there's an agnostic family someplace in Texas (out by San Antonio I think) that's protesting the valedictorian's commencement speech, saying that if it contains the words "God", "Jesus", "Let us pray", or any type of religious inferences, they'll file a lawsuit (and I'm fairly certain I heard that the ACLU is involved and backing them up).
This country was founded on Christian values & religious freedom... I'm not sure why the left is so hell-bent on seeing it eradicated from our lives.
Ohhhh, if you have sister wives, do I ever have questions for you! The FLDS is my new interest...have been reading everything I can get my hands on on the subject. I even found an FLDS chat room where sometimes I just pop on and read what they are saying. Fascinating stuff! Yep, I'm a weirdo sometimes and I am fully aware of it. Ha. So, sounds like you are as far right as I am left. I stop short at socialism though..still to the right of that.
bbxx...a sister wife is what the wives of polygamists refer to each other as.
bbxx...a sister wife is what the wives of polygamists refer to each other as.
I will try to post this again.
I take it back lol
rosies back (mean, but I wouldnt want to visualize it regardless)
Mixed breeding? I thought humans were called mixed race and dogs mixed breeding?
recovering addict? (congratulations on recovering)
whats a sister-wife?
I take it back lol
rosies back (mean, but I wouldnt want to visualize it regardless)
Mixed breeding? I thought humans were called mixed race and dogs mixed breeding?
recovering addict? (congratulations on recovering)
whats a sister-wife?
Eew...a visual of Rosie O'donnell's back fat! Lol!!!
Oh my gosh, this conversation has taken quite a turn from the original subject, hahaha!
Oh my gosh, this conversation has taken quite a turn from the original subject, hahaha!
And ADGAL... if I was to get offended every time someone called me a name (polygamist in this case), I'd have to crawl under a rock and live my life in hiding.
My religious non-beliefs.
My extreme right-wing philosophy.
My crass, dry, not-very-witty, rude & vulgar sense of humor.
My mixed breeding.
My recovering-addict tendencies.
Etc, etc, etc...
All of that adds up to a guy that's a target for many an insult.
I've learned to dish it as well as take it, so say what you will... it's pretty darn hard to insult me.
Just ask one of my sister-wives.
My religious non-beliefs.
My extreme right-wing philosophy.
My crass, dry, not-very-witty, rude & vulgar sense of humor.
My mixed breeding.
My recovering-addict tendencies.
Etc, etc, etc...
All of that adds up to a guy that's a target for many an insult.
I've learned to dish it as well as take it, so say what you will... it's pretty darn hard to insult me.
Just ask one of my sister-wives.
Bring it!!! I can take it, trust me. My skin is thicker than... thicker than... thicker than... well, it's pretty thick. How about this. It's thicker than Rosie O'donnells' back fat! Now THAT'S some think skin!!!
About the only thing that I'd take offense to, out of any of the above comments, is the fact that you guys called me a Liberal.
I'm further to the right than Attila the Hun. Think of the most Conservative person that you know... Well, I'm further to the right than THAT person.
Yes, I'm a riddle wrapped in a conundrum surrounded by an enigma, being that I'm an atheist AND a Conservative, but there ya go.
I'm not sure I'd call myself a "republican", but I'm FOR SURE a Conservative. If I could vote, I'd vote to the 'Right' for certain (as I just don't believe & agree with the majority of Liberal agenda, policy, mantra & philosophy), but as I'm not an American (on paper), I'm vote'less.
So... BBXX, I'm HIGHLY offended that you think I'm a Lib. Take it back. Take it back. Take it back. NOW!!!
About the only thing that I'd take offense to, out of any of the above comments, is the fact that you guys called me a Liberal.
I'm further to the right than Attila the Hun. Think of the most Conservative person that you know... Well, I'm further to the right than THAT person.
Yes, I'm a riddle wrapped in a conundrum surrounded by an enigma, being that I'm an atheist AND a Conservative, but there ya go.
I'm not sure I'd call myself a "republican", but I'm FOR SURE a Conservative. If I could vote, I'd vote to the 'Right' for certain (as I just don't believe & agree with the majority of Liberal agenda, policy, mantra & philosophy), but as I'm not an American (on paper), I'm vote'less.
So... BBXX, I'm HIGHLY offended that you think I'm a Lib. Take it back. Take it back. Take it back. NOW!!!
No offense at all. I was teasing as well. I know I am very left and I have no issue with that at all. It's just who I am. And nothing wrong with being a righty..lol. We all are who we are and we discuss these issues from both sides. It's a good thing! I was seriously joking, and I know el_em isn't a polygamist. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Oh goodness, I was only teasing, honest. I am sorry El if that was an insult to you. I didnt mean for it to be. I dont know any of you and in our brief conversations I think I am more conservative than you all (or more prudish perhaps in your minds) lol
I really was only teasing.
Adal, I think you are a kind person that is somewhat misguided in her views. lol, no seriously, we are just two people that differ in our oppinons.
So sorry for offending anyone. I really was teasing.
I really was only teasing.
Adal, I think you are a kind person that is somewhat misguided in her views. lol, no seriously, we are just two people that differ in our oppinons.
So sorry for offending anyone. I really was teasing.
Oh dear. If el_em is a liberal, what does that make me? I know, I am an extreme lefty..lol. I am pretty sure I have to be the most liberal person in this room. But I too appreciate the way even the most extreme right of you take it for what it's worth. My opinion and nothing more!
El_em...so, does that make you a polygomist as well as a liberal...lol. Interesting combo.
El_em...so, does that make you a polygomist as well as a liberal...lol. Interesting combo.
haha ha not surprised coming from a liberal (lol)
I like this place for that very reason.
All of you guys seem extremely accepting of new opinions, thoughts & ideas, and are open to discussion if you happen to not agree, and at least willing to field arguments and opinions from 'the other side of the fence'.
I love it here...;-)
If I could, I'd marry each and every one of you! THAT'S how much I love you guys!!!
All of you guys seem extremely accepting of new opinions, thoughts & ideas, and are open to discussion if you happen to not agree, and at least willing to field arguments and opinions from 'the other side of the fence'.
I love it here...;-)
If I could, I'd marry each and every one of you! THAT'S how much I love you guys!!!
Well, I am not offended at all by your beliefs or lack of beliefs. :)
I actually think people on here have all been pretty much able to agree or not and move on. I appreciate that.
I actually think people on here have all been pretty much able to agree or not and move on. I appreciate that.
It's times like this that I'm happy I'm an atheist.
Teach about God, don't teach about God. Speak about God, don't speak about God. Mention God in a speech, don't mention God in a speech. Preach to me about God, don't preach to me about God. It matters not to me. I welcome all comers.
Religion is actually one of my FAVORITE topics of conversation, along with politics & sex.
Being completely & utterly neutral when it comes to religion is sometimes a blessing, as in cases like this.
In the same sentence, I'll say that I absolutely abhor atheist's & agnostic's that protest, and speak out, and make a stink about the word "God" or "Jesus" or "Religion". They give atheist's a bad name, and make it extremely difficult for people like me, that just don't care one way or another, to have intelligent conversations with people like you guys.
I find that when the subject of religion comes up, and a conversation ensues, people tend to be offended when I tell them that I'm an atheist. It's okay for everyone involved in the discussion to be whatever religion they are, but when I'm asked and I answer "atheist", I get really dirty looks (when I'm among strangers that is... my friends accept me for what I am and know that I'm not "one of THOSE" atheist's).
Neutral I am, and neutral I will remain.
Teach about God, don't teach about God. Speak about God, don't speak about God. Mention God in a speech, don't mention God in a speech. Preach to me about God, don't preach to me about God. It matters not to me. I welcome all comers.
Religion is actually one of my FAVORITE topics of conversation, along with politics & sex.
Being completely & utterly neutral when it comes to religion is sometimes a blessing, as in cases like this.
In the same sentence, I'll say that I absolutely abhor atheist's & agnostic's that protest, and speak out, and make a stink about the word "God" or "Jesus" or "Religion". They give atheist's a bad name, and make it extremely difficult for people like me, that just don't care one way or another, to have intelligent conversations with people like you guys.
I find that when the subject of religion comes up, and a conversation ensues, people tend to be offended when I tell them that I'm an atheist. It's okay for everyone involved in the discussion to be whatever religion they are, but when I'm asked and I answer "atheist", I get really dirty looks (when I'm among strangers that is... my friends accept me for what I am and know that I'm not "one of THOSE" atheist's).
Neutral I am, and neutral I will remain.
No, it's fine. Ask away. I love telling people about how things are here. As you know, there are many misconceptions. Right now the Catholic Church is the only one with an official seperate school board. However, you do not necessarily have to be a Catholic to send your child there, just a parent who wants their child schooled in a Christian enviroment. I am officially a Catholic, but do not attend the Catholic Church (I know, makes no sense, but I have my reasons). There are many faith based schools around and typically not a high cost of sending your child there as usually it is connected to a specific Church, Synagogue, Mosque, whatever the case may be so it is low or no cost for Children to attend. That specific faith basically supports the school. But in terms of diverting taxes, right now it's only public or seperate, and seperate is the Catholic Church.
Yes, homeschooling is allowed providing certain curiculum is followed. The tests at various points are administered by the School Board to ensure the child is keeping up. YOu can also apply for a home schooling teacher to come in to your home for certain subjects, although this is typically only free if there is a medical issue (including mental health issues) that prohibit a child from attending. However, home schooling is very much supported here and lots do it.
Ask me anything anytime. I love talking about Canada.
Yes, homeschooling is allowed providing certain curiculum is followed. The tests at various points are administered by the School Board to ensure the child is keeping up. YOu can also apply for a home schooling teacher to come in to your home for certain subjects, although this is typically only free if there is a medical issue (including mental health issues) that prohibit a child from attending. However, home schooling is very much supported here and lots do it.
Ask me anything anytime. I love talking about Canada.
Oh dont worry, you know a ot more about my country than I do yours and thats actually a shame.
Do they allow the parents to send the kids to other religious schools besides Catholic?
Do they allow parents to homeschool there?
Sorry, not trying to have a billion questions, I was just wondering lol
Do they allow the parents to send the kids to other religious schools besides Catholic?
Do they allow parents to homeschool there?
Sorry, not trying to have a billion questions, I was just wondering lol
I truly admire your committment to your faith.
You mentioned an interesting point...the tax payers having the choice. That is something else we do here, so I just assumed it was the same there. I need to remember that as similar as we are, there are some differences.
We can divert the portion of our tax that goes to the school system to either Public School or what we call the Seperate School System (basically, the Catholic Schools). That way parents that cannot afford private school, but want their children attending school in a Christian envioronment with prayer have the option without the extra cost. It's just done through that portion of our tax that we pay anyway. I really thought it was the same there.
You mentioned an interesting point...the tax payers having the choice. That is something else we do here, so I just assumed it was the same there. I need to remember that as similar as we are, there are some differences.
We can divert the portion of our tax that goes to the school system to either Public School or what we call the Seperate School System (basically, the Catholic Schools). That way parents that cannot afford private school, but want their children attending school in a Christian envioronment with prayer have the option without the extra cost. It's just done through that portion of our tax that we pay anyway. I really thought it was the same there.
I realize some may be wondering if I went and causes a stink trying to get the town to pay for my kids or if I would sue the town etc... the answer is no. I did not do that.
I am fortunate in that I have experience with public school, private school, and homeschooling. Good and bad in all three of them.
I am fortunate in that I have experience with public school, private school, and homeschooling. Good and bad in all three of them.
You misunderstood me.I was not saying non Christians should not celebrate the Christian celebrations, but merely that they have always taken school vacations in celebration of them. If they continue to take breaks for Christians to celeberate Christmas, then they will have to allow for every religion their special celebrations, but since you want all religion out anyway, then there wont be a need for Christmas vacation.
I cant speak for the schools in your country. I am only speaking for mine, and even in my country, it will vary from teacher to teacher, school to school.
I never said Christianity should be taught in public schools. There are too many variations on what that means, as you and I are a perfect example of that, and I would not want someone teaching it to my child in a way I dont believe. So on that we are in agreement.
You mentioned if Christians want Christianity taught then they need to put their kids in private schools. As a Christian I beleive the bible is Gods Holy Word. My beliefs effect every single area of my life. I can not just pick up my faith on the weekend and set it down the rest of the week. It is who I am and effects my beliefs on everything from how the world came to be, to my beliefs on sex, to my beliefs on human behavior, to what I read in books, to what I watch on television, to what I listen to for music etc... It determines every area of my life, which brings us to your point that we should put our kids in Christian schools.
Since we have our beliefs that effect all this, why should our tax money fund the things we dont believe? Instead our tax money should allow us to school our kids in accordance with our beliefs, but the facts are, many people are opposed to this, why? Because it would be less money funding the schools teaching the things we dont want them teaching our children. I can give you an example. In my town, the town has to pay for each of our kids to attend the public school in the next town. It costs the town 7,000.00 per student. (well it did when my kids were in school) Well, a parent asked the town since they did not agree with the things being taught their child that went against their faith, would they be willing to instead of paying 7,000.00 for that school, would they pay 3,000.00 to a private school. The town said only if it is not a Christian school. This was really strange. It would have saved the town 4 thousand dollars, but they did not want to be using tax payer money to fund Christian education. Ok, I get that, but they are using Christian tax money to fund non Christian education. So, what happens to the Christian in this case? They are still forced to pay taxes for something that is against their faith, and on top of that if they can afford to, they will have pay to have their child taught.
So, it appears the answer is---
1.Allow parents to have alternative material for their kids and opt out of the things against
their beliefs.
2. Allow tax payers the choice of public or the religious school of their choice.
I cant speak for the schools in your country. I am only speaking for mine, and even in my country, it will vary from teacher to teacher, school to school.
I never said Christianity should be taught in public schools. There are too many variations on what that means, as you and I are a perfect example of that, and I would not want someone teaching it to my child in a way I dont believe. So on that we are in agreement.
You mentioned if Christians want Christianity taught then they need to put their kids in private schools. As a Christian I beleive the bible is Gods Holy Word. My beliefs effect every single area of my life. I can not just pick up my faith on the weekend and set it down the rest of the week. It is who I am and effects my beliefs on everything from how the world came to be, to my beliefs on sex, to my beliefs on human behavior, to what I read in books, to what I watch on television, to what I listen to for music etc... It determines every area of my life, which brings us to your point that we should put our kids in Christian schools.
Since we have our beliefs that effect all this, why should our tax money fund the things we dont believe? Instead our tax money should allow us to school our kids in accordance with our beliefs, but the facts are, many people are opposed to this, why? Because it would be less money funding the schools teaching the things we dont want them teaching our children. I can give you an example. In my town, the town has to pay for each of our kids to attend the public school in the next town. It costs the town 7,000.00 per student. (well it did when my kids were in school) Well, a parent asked the town since they did not agree with the things being taught their child that went against their faith, would they be willing to instead of paying 7,000.00 for that school, would they pay 3,000.00 to a private school. The town said only if it is not a Christian school. This was really strange. It would have saved the town 4 thousand dollars, but they did not want to be using tax payer money to fund Christian education. Ok, I get that, but they are using Christian tax money to fund non Christian education. So, what happens to the Christian in this case? They are still forced to pay taxes for something that is against their faith, and on top of that if they can afford to, they will have pay to have their child taught.
So, it appears the answer is---
1.Allow parents to have alternative material for their kids and opt out of the things against
their beliefs.
2. Allow tax payers the choice of public or the religious school of their choice.
I have personally never encountered a situation where they taught against God. Here anyway, there is just no mention of it at all in our Public Schools. But never that it doesn't exist.
Sex Education is a whole different issue. Personally, my views are a bit mixed on this issue. We used to take a course called Health. It did teach about our bodies, how they worked and covered the changes our bodies were going through as we went through puberty. All in a very clinical way. It was good. As for sex education...I think it should be an elective so that parents have the choice of whether or not their kids will attend. I would have no problem with my son taking that class, but agree that it should be a parents decision.
Creation/Evolution. When we took science, all the different theories were covered. Again, in a very clinical sort of way. They were put forth as theories different groups had. I can remember certain kids having to leave the classroom during any other discussion besides creation. This was due to religious beliefs, and that was honored. Never a problem.
As for non Christians celebrating Christian holidays? That's a personal decision, don't you think? That is in the privacy of their own home, and if they want to, great. Christmas is a beautiful family time even if you don't follow the belief behind it. Nothing wrong with learning about giving and valuing family. My husband is not Christian, and we celebrate. Not a problem at all.
Really, the only issue is should there be prayer/religous studies in public schools. I still say no. I have the same attitude as Brice does. Right now my choice is my son be brought up with Christianity. When he is older he may make the decision to change that, and that is his decision. If I want him to learn about Christianity in school, he should go to a Christian School. Otherwise, it should be taught at home or in Church. School should be about learning and some socializing (I saw someone else say that in another post and I like that). That was it's intent. I mean, we can't very well say we don't like them only serving healthy food or dictating what our kids eat, then turn around and say that them pushing a specific religion isn't a violation of rights too. Equality is equality and not just for one religious group.
Sex Education is a whole different issue. Personally, my views are a bit mixed on this issue. We used to take a course called Health. It did teach about our bodies, how they worked and covered the changes our bodies were going through as we went through puberty. All in a very clinical way. It was good. As for sex education...I think it should be an elective so that parents have the choice of whether or not their kids will attend. I would have no problem with my son taking that class, but agree that it should be a parents decision.
Creation/Evolution. When we took science, all the different theories were covered. Again, in a very clinical sort of way. They were put forth as theories different groups had. I can remember certain kids having to leave the classroom during any other discussion besides creation. This was due to religious beliefs, and that was honored. Never a problem.
As for non Christians celebrating Christian holidays? That's a personal decision, don't you think? That is in the privacy of their own home, and if they want to, great. Christmas is a beautiful family time even if you don't follow the belief behind it. Nothing wrong with learning about giving and valuing family. My husband is not Christian, and we celebrate. Not a problem at all.
Really, the only issue is should there be prayer/religous studies in public schools. I still say no. I have the same attitude as Brice does. Right now my choice is my son be brought up with Christianity. When he is older he may make the decision to change that, and that is his decision. If I want him to learn about Christianity in school, he should go to a Christian School. Otherwise, it should be taught at home or in Church. School should be about learning and some socializing (I saw someone else say that in another post and I like that). That was it's intent. I mean, we can't very well say we don't like them only serving healthy food or dictating what our kids eat, then turn around and say that them pushing a specific religion isn't a violation of rights too. Equality is equality and not just for one religious group.
I do understand your point, but this works two ways.
I dont want teachers telling my kids that there is no God or that all religions worship the same God. I have experienced these things personally. If there is to be no God in school, then there is to be no talk of there not being a God either.
BUT.....
All this gets really confusing (both ways). For example--
sex education (this can be taught against the beliefs of the parents)
creation/evolution (again, one of these views will be against the parents beliefs)
Another thought. What about Christmas? Why do the non christians celeberate if they dont believe in Christ? What about Easter?
Lots of things to consider if its to be truly fair to both sides.
I dont want teachers telling my kids that there is no God or that all religions worship the same God. I have experienced these things personally. If there is to be no God in school, then there is to be no talk of there not being a God either.
BUT.....
All this gets really confusing (both ways). For example--
sex education (this can be taught against the beliefs of the parents)
creation/evolution (again, one of these views will be against the parents beliefs)
Another thought. What about Christmas? Why do the non christians celeberate if they dont believe in Christ? What about Easter?
Lots of things to consider if its to be truly fair to both sides.
With all of the problems, or perceived problems within public schools and the particular courses being offered and how they're taught, I sure as hell don't want these people teaching religion.... I think there are outstanding teachers everywhere, but I don't want my kid's geometry teacher talking God. Just stick to geometry.
I'm with your train of thought adgal. I just dont think public school is the place for prayer. I feel as if enough opinions are impressed upon our kids in school and I don't care to have a teacher/school administrator impressing their religious beliefs upon my children. That is what our churches, synagogues, mosques etc are for and my children have the right to find and follow whatever beliefs they choose.... I might not like it, and I might not necessarily agree.
Religion is too intimate and should be chosen by the parents until the kids can make their own choice.... not the schools or the governments.
And I don't necessarily think it was the athiests that got prayer out of school so to speak, as much as it was people of all religions or other religions anyways. If you do for one group, you must do for all. Majority rule does not apply here in my personal opinion.
Religion is too intimate and should be chosen by the parents until the kids can make their own choice.... not the schools or the governments.
And I don't necessarily think it was the athiests that got prayer out of school so to speak, as much as it was people of all religions or other religions anyways. If you do for one group, you must do for all. Majority rule does not apply here in my personal opinion.
I think this is two seperate issues. The first is the location of the graduation. Even if I wasn't Christian, this wouldn't bother me as in this case the Church is not being used as a place of worship, but a convenient location. The Church shouldn't have to "redecorate" to accomodate. There is no religious service taking place. It's just a non issue as far as I am concerned.
But the prayer in public school issue. I still think that is wrong, regardless of the religion. The US is like Canada in that we have so many different people of all different faiths, cultures, etc. So why would it be Christianity that is practiced in the public school system vs. another? If they return to that, where are the non Christian kids supposed to go? I know our laws here are supposed to be equal for everyone, regardless of whether or not they are the majority/minority. Equal is equal. You can't say I want freedom and equality for all, but extra freedoms for Christians. What kind of door could that potentially open for the future? And what really confounds me is so many being up in arms over things like only healthy foods being served in the school and I have heard so much about parents rights to parent their children being taken away. Yet religion is ok? To me that is one of the most personal rights a person has. I just think perhaps this whole issue is not being looked at objectively. One of the things that seperates countries like ours from countries where religious law takes precedence is our freedoms. It's hard for me to believe you want that taken away. Look at the mess these countries where religion is the law are in. I don't want that. Nope, I want religion to be decided upon by me and my family, not the school system.
But the prayer in public school issue. I still think that is wrong, regardless of the religion. The US is like Canada in that we have so many different people of all different faiths, cultures, etc. So why would it be Christianity that is practiced in the public school system vs. another? If they return to that, where are the non Christian kids supposed to go? I know our laws here are supposed to be equal for everyone, regardless of whether or not they are the majority/minority. Equal is equal. You can't say I want freedom and equality for all, but extra freedoms for Christians. What kind of door could that potentially open for the future? And what really confounds me is so many being up in arms over things like only healthy foods being served in the school and I have heard so much about parents rights to parent their children being taken away. Yet religion is ok? To me that is one of the most personal rights a person has. I just think perhaps this whole issue is not being looked at objectively. One of the things that seperates countries like ours from countries where religious law takes precedence is our freedoms. It's hard for me to believe you want that taken away. Look at the mess these countries where religion is the law are in. I don't want that. Nope, I want religion to be decided upon by me and my family, not the school system.
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