Aa
After vote allowing gay kids to become Boy Scouts, some families call it quits
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/30/18633729-after-vote-allowing-gay-kids-to-become-boy-scouts-some-families-call-it-quits?lite
The father of a Cub Scout sat his son on his lap late last week and told him news that tore up both their hearts: The family was leaving the Boy Scouts.
Aaron Butler, the leader of his 8-year-old son Evan’s Cub Scout Wolf den in Roseau, Minn., said he didn't explain to his eldest son exactly why they were walking away from an organization they loved so much, but he told NBC News that it was because of last week's controversial decision by the Boy Scouts of America to allow gay youth to participate.
“It was a big disappointment. He cried for about 10 minutes because I told him that Boy Scouts were not honoring their own law," Butler said, referring to the BSA oath that he interpreted as barring gay people. "They say it -- 'On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep [myself] physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight,'” he said.
Advertise | AdChoices
“If the BSA cannot honor its own law, then how can I stay with an organization that just does not care anymore?” he said.
As many Scouts and families rejoiced over the BSA's decision to partly end the membership guidelines that had drawn criticism from supporters of LGBT rights both inside and outside the organization, many others decried the move, with some BSA members making the tough choice to pull out of one of the nation's most popular youth organizations.
“I feel pretty bad about it,” Evan told NBC News, noting he liked the camp-outs, and archery and slingshot activities he enjoyed in Pack 56. He said that he understood there was a vote that led to his parents’ decision. He explained that he understood it as: “It was between honor and God, and not honoring God. And [not] honoring God got more votes.”
“It was something that we all enjoyed, we loved every week of it,” said Butler, 30, who works at a window and door manufacturer. “It's a shame that BSA had just caved like a deck of cards.”
Caved, Butler said, to pressure from activists to let gay youth join the group. The vote was approved by 61 percent of the 1,232 National Council delegates who cast a ballot at the BSA's annual meeting one week ago (another 168 delegates -- or about 12 percent of the total delegates -- were not present to cast a ballot).
“There were divisions about how to serve kids,” Tico Perez, the BSA national commissioner, said immediately after the vote. “If we have disagreement, if we have discomfort, we are going to talk through it. America needs Scouting.”
“Our singular focus moving forward is serving more kids in Scouting, and we believe this resolution is going to do that,” he added.
When asked about families saying they would leave over the decision, BSA President Wayne Perry said last week: “We think that on reflection that many of these people will decide that the best place for their kids is in Scouting.”
A week on, BSA spokesman Deron Smith said the group couldn't yet quantify the impact of the amended policy. Most organizations that charter Scouting units were continuing with the program, but some had decided not to renew – in which case BSA executives would work with troop leadership to identify a suitable partner and ensure a smooth transition, he said.
“Our local council professionals and volunteers are reaching out to our all chartered partners to review the policy and answer questions they have,” he wrote in an email. “We are finding that when people read the new policy they see it is reflective of the beliefs of most of Scouting’s major religious chartered organizations.”
Not so for Mike A. Miller, a union electrician in Mount Holly, N.C., who said he was pulling his 9-year-old son, Cody, out of the Cub Scouts and would step down as assistant den leader of Pack 45. Monday will be his son's advancement ceremony to Webelos – as far as he will go with the organization.
He said he talked to Cody before the vote – after it was announced in February – so it wouldn't be a one-time conversation.
“It was hard to explain to a 9-year-old the complexities of why I was telling him that we had to quit,” Miller said. “He told me, 'Daddy, it should be like church. Everybody should be welcome.'”
Advertise | AdChoices
Miller said he then told Cody that the point of going to church is to seek forgiveness — not for being all-inclusive.
“I said, 'These people aren’t asking for your forgiveness,'” Miller, 51, told NBC News in a telephone interview. “What they're doing is saying, 'this is what I am and you have to accept me like I am. I'm not coming to try to change.'
"Be it right, wrong or indifferent, the Bible that I read says [homosexuality is] a sin,” he said.
Miller said he and other families that would leave were talking about continuing some kind of program for the boys. He said he was going to look into an alternative faith-based group being put together by On My Honor — an organization started by a Florida dad and Scout volunteer, and composed of families and outside groups that oppose allowing gay youths and adults in the Boy Scouts.
As for adult leaders and volunteers, Boy Scouts officials last week said there would be no change to the adult membership policy, which excludes gays.
That means that after a boy turns 18, he would graduate from the Boy Scouts and have to apply to become an adult leader – when the membership policy barring gays would apply.
Gay rights activists pledged to continue their campaign to include adults even as they applauded the vote. They acknowledged there could be some attrition, but said the decision was the first step in the right direction for the organization.
“Even though I think that there will probably still be a few folks who choose to walk away … I think this is the beginning of the rebound of Scouting in America,” Zach Wahls, founder of Scouts for Equality, said after the vote.
Back in Roseau, Aaron Butler lamented that his sons – he has a younger boy, 6-year-old Emmett – would not achieve the Boy Scouts' highest honor of being an Eagle Scout and all of the recognition that comes with it.
He said he had prayed weekly that the BSA “would stay straight.” Now that the vote has come and gone, he and another den leader would plot the next activity for the boys, “because we have to fill that vacuum with something good.”
“The Boy Scouts gave us a sense of pride. They have done so much for all these kids … they have made a lot of these kids full of integrity and that’s what they teach – they did teach,” he said.
The father of a Cub Scout sat his son on his lap late last week and told him news that tore up both their hearts: The family was leaving the Boy Scouts.
Aaron Butler, the leader of his 8-year-old son Evan’s Cub Scout Wolf den in Roseau, Minn., said he didn't explain to his eldest son exactly why they were walking away from an organization they loved so much, but he told NBC News that it was because of last week's controversial decision by the Boy Scouts of America to allow gay youth to participate.
“It was a big disappointment. He cried for about 10 minutes because I told him that Boy Scouts were not honoring their own law," Butler said, referring to the BSA oath that he interpreted as barring gay people. "They say it -- 'On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep [myself] physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight,'” he said.
Advertise | AdChoices
“If the BSA cannot honor its own law, then how can I stay with an organization that just does not care anymore?” he said.
As many Scouts and families rejoiced over the BSA's decision to partly end the membership guidelines that had drawn criticism from supporters of LGBT rights both inside and outside the organization, many others decried the move, with some BSA members making the tough choice to pull out of one of the nation's most popular youth organizations.
“I feel pretty bad about it,” Evan told NBC News, noting he liked the camp-outs, and archery and slingshot activities he enjoyed in Pack 56. He said that he understood there was a vote that led to his parents’ decision. He explained that he understood it as: “It was between honor and God, and not honoring God. And [not] honoring God got more votes.”
“It was something that we all enjoyed, we loved every week of it,” said Butler, 30, who works at a window and door manufacturer. “It's a shame that BSA had just caved like a deck of cards.”
Caved, Butler said, to pressure from activists to let gay youth join the group. The vote was approved by 61 percent of the 1,232 National Council delegates who cast a ballot at the BSA's annual meeting one week ago (another 168 delegates -- or about 12 percent of the total delegates -- were not present to cast a ballot).
“There were divisions about how to serve kids,” Tico Perez, the BSA national commissioner, said immediately after the vote. “If we have disagreement, if we have discomfort, we are going to talk through it. America needs Scouting.”
“Our singular focus moving forward is serving more kids in Scouting, and we believe this resolution is going to do that,” he added.
When asked about families saying they would leave over the decision, BSA President Wayne Perry said last week: “We think that on reflection that many of these people will decide that the best place for their kids is in Scouting.”
A week on, BSA spokesman Deron Smith said the group couldn't yet quantify the impact of the amended policy. Most organizations that charter Scouting units were continuing with the program, but some had decided not to renew – in which case BSA executives would work with troop leadership to identify a suitable partner and ensure a smooth transition, he said.
“Our local council professionals and volunteers are reaching out to our all chartered partners to review the policy and answer questions they have,” he wrote in an email. “We are finding that when people read the new policy they see it is reflective of the beliefs of most of Scouting’s major religious chartered organizations.”
Not so for Mike A. Miller, a union electrician in Mount Holly, N.C., who said he was pulling his 9-year-old son, Cody, out of the Cub Scouts and would step down as assistant den leader of Pack 45. Monday will be his son's advancement ceremony to Webelos – as far as he will go with the organization.
He said he talked to Cody before the vote – after it was announced in February – so it wouldn't be a one-time conversation.
“It was hard to explain to a 9-year-old the complexities of why I was telling him that we had to quit,” Miller said. “He told me, 'Daddy, it should be like church. Everybody should be welcome.'”
Advertise | AdChoices
Miller said he then told Cody that the point of going to church is to seek forgiveness — not for being all-inclusive.
“I said, 'These people aren’t asking for your forgiveness,'” Miller, 51, told NBC News in a telephone interview. “What they're doing is saying, 'this is what I am and you have to accept me like I am. I'm not coming to try to change.'
"Be it right, wrong or indifferent, the Bible that I read says [homosexuality is] a sin,” he said.
Miller said he and other families that would leave were talking about continuing some kind of program for the boys. He said he was going to look into an alternative faith-based group being put together by On My Honor — an organization started by a Florida dad and Scout volunteer, and composed of families and outside groups that oppose allowing gay youths and adults in the Boy Scouts.
As for adult leaders and volunteers, Boy Scouts officials last week said there would be no change to the adult membership policy, which excludes gays.
That means that after a boy turns 18, he would graduate from the Boy Scouts and have to apply to become an adult leader – when the membership policy barring gays would apply.
Gay rights activists pledged to continue their campaign to include adults even as they applauded the vote. They acknowledged there could be some attrition, but said the decision was the first step in the right direction for the organization.
“Even though I think that there will probably still be a few folks who choose to walk away … I think this is the beginning of the rebound of Scouting in America,” Zach Wahls, founder of Scouts for Equality, said after the vote.
Back in Roseau, Aaron Butler lamented that his sons – he has a younger boy, 6-year-old Emmett – would not achieve the Boy Scouts' highest honor of being an Eagle Scout and all of the recognition that comes with it.
He said he had prayed weekly that the BSA “would stay straight.” Now that the vote has come and gone, he and another den leader would plot the next activity for the boys, “because we have to fill that vacuum with something good.”
“The Boy Scouts gave us a sense of pride. They have done so much for all these kids … they have made a lot of these kids full of integrity and that’s what they teach – they did teach,” he said.
Brice is reflecting on his experience of sexism and discrimination. The good news that it has improved in some aspects does not mean we are are free from the same prejudices he experienced.
In our lives as individuals and as a society we will always be faced with these sorts of things.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness and sensitivity Brice you have revealed to us a deeper and softer side and I feel honored.
In our lives as individuals and as a society we will always be faced with these sorts of things.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness and sensitivity Brice you have revealed to us a deeper and softer side and I feel honored.
Times have changed Brice, our packs and dens are affiliated with our school rather than ANY church and women leaders are not uncommon. The past two years, we had a woman cub master!!
I think cub scouts, boy scouts are a place for being accepted as you are period. NO ONE should be discriminated against.
I think cub scouts, boy scouts are a place for being accepted as you are period. NO ONE should be discriminated against.
Awesome post, Brice. Beautifully said.
I remember starting in scouts some 40 years ago. A friends mother brought the idea to other parents in the neighborhood, and since she was not working full time, she wanted to get the group of us kids together and start a den.
After we all had earned our badges and were about to cross over into the webelos, and our scout leader (a friends mother) had to go back to work full time, so she tried to get us all into other groups. There was a reluctance to take any of us on because we were not affiliated with a church, and we had a woman for a leader..... All 8 of the kids basically dropped out of church because there was nobody else willing to take us on. We all knew that people looked at us as illegitimate because of no church affiliation and having a female leader.
Basically, if Jesus or a man was not at the helm, we didn't exist....
After we all had earned our badges and were about to cross over into the webelos, and our scout leader (a friends mother) had to go back to work full time, so she tried to get us all into other groups. There was a reluctance to take any of us on because we were not affiliated with a church, and we had a woman for a leader..... All 8 of the kids basically dropped out of church because there was nobody else willing to take us on. We all knew that people looked at us as illegitimate because of no church affiliation and having a female leader.
Basically, if Jesus or a man was not at the helm, we didn't exist....
For me, it doesn't really matter if someone is born that way or become that way, I would hate for any child to feel like that they aren't okay as they are. I don't agree with the protest of families over this.
Anyone that has kids in cub scouts knows that it is a great place for kids that need 'someplace' to connect. The dynamics of it are that kids aren't left out, it isn't a popularity contest, etc. This is a big draw for parents that have children that struggle in some way or another and especially socially. Mixed with other kids and encouraged to all be one den, it is a wonderful opportunity for boys! To then hear of this intolerance is a bit tragic to the organization.
They have a right to leave Boy Scouts and should if they have narrow minded views such as this. (my opinion, anyway). Kids of all sorts need to feel safe in scouting and if they feel judged or prejudice against them, that is defeating the purpose.
BTW, I think it is absurd to think that a young person that is homosexual is going to influence his scouting peers to be as well. Do people not think that homosexuals have same sex friends?
Also, it's not really fair to blame 'this' on the Catholic Church. Lots of religions do not support homosexuality and someone doesn't have to have any religion in order to be prejudiced. I can tell you, of course--- just my own experience, that I converted and became Catholic and throughout RCI (a year of intensive twice a week classes) and all of my years going to church as a family every week, witnessing my boys going through ccd--- it homosexuality has never been mentioned to me personally. This is at the three different churches that we've attended over the years. Not a one has said a thing about homosexuality, not a sermon, not a comment, nothing. I've read a couple of things from the church in Rome regarding it over the years--- but only a few. Most of what I hear regarding how against homosexuality the Catholic church has come from the media. Yep, the good old media that likes to demonize people and things. So, whomever brought up the 'Catholic Church' as the problem needs to turn off their tv.
Anyone that has kids in cub scouts knows that it is a great place for kids that need 'someplace' to connect. The dynamics of it are that kids aren't left out, it isn't a popularity contest, etc. This is a big draw for parents that have children that struggle in some way or another and especially socially. Mixed with other kids and encouraged to all be one den, it is a wonderful opportunity for boys! To then hear of this intolerance is a bit tragic to the organization.
They have a right to leave Boy Scouts and should if they have narrow minded views such as this. (my opinion, anyway). Kids of all sorts need to feel safe in scouting and if they feel judged or prejudice against them, that is defeating the purpose.
BTW, I think it is absurd to think that a young person that is homosexual is going to influence his scouting peers to be as well. Do people not think that homosexuals have same sex friends?
Also, it's not really fair to blame 'this' on the Catholic Church. Lots of religions do not support homosexuality and someone doesn't have to have any religion in order to be prejudiced. I can tell you, of course--- just my own experience, that I converted and became Catholic and throughout RCI (a year of intensive twice a week classes) and all of my years going to church as a family every week, witnessing my boys going through ccd--- it homosexuality has never been mentioned to me personally. This is at the three different churches that we've attended over the years. Not a one has said a thing about homosexuality, not a sermon, not a comment, nothing. I've read a couple of things from the church in Rome regarding it over the years--- but only a few. Most of what I hear regarding how against homosexuality the Catholic church has come from the media. Yep, the good old media that likes to demonize people and things. So, whomever brought up the 'Catholic Church' as the problem needs to turn off their tv.
If you accept that we are born in certain ways, no better or worse, no judgement then this is a no brainer. If you cannot accept it as something that just is like left-handedness then you will feel uncomfortable with the acceptance of these folks, bottom line.
We either agree on this or don't agree. I know where you are coming from and I understand but I don't agree.
Very well said rivll
That is what I meant when I made the sit in the back of the bus comment earliers.
You either believe that someone is born that way or you believe they are not.
To me, and because I do believe they were born that way, this is all simply a way for the parents to instill more bigotry and hatred into yet another people who are different than them.
If you dont believe they are born that way and it is a choice, you are repulsed by them and look at them as a disease that may be caught and maybe should not be sharing space anywhere with them? Because you can keep the kid out of the scouts, and it only deprives the child like the 8 year old above. Do you really think he understands the adult thinking?
So keep him out of scouts for what? They are still in all the schools, churches, restaurants and movie theatres all over the place, so what ya gonna do? move to another country where they ban or execute them?
If your sexuality is an issue at scouts and is a conversation there, then that may be the reason to pull them because then the organization is not doing what it stands for imo.
We either agree on this or don't agree. I know where you are coming from and I understand but I don't agree.
Very well said rivll
That is what I meant when I made the sit in the back of the bus comment earliers.
You either believe that someone is born that way or you believe they are not.
To me, and because I do believe they were born that way, this is all simply a way for the parents to instill more bigotry and hatred into yet another people who are different than them.
If you dont believe they are born that way and it is a choice, you are repulsed by them and look at them as a disease that may be caught and maybe should not be sharing space anywhere with them? Because you can keep the kid out of the scouts, and it only deprives the child like the 8 year old above. Do you really think he understands the adult thinking?
So keep him out of scouts for what? They are still in all the schools, churches, restaurants and movie theatres all over the place, so what ya gonna do? move to another country where they ban or execute them?
If your sexuality is an issue at scouts and is a conversation there, then that may be the reason to pull them because then the organization is not doing what it stands for imo.
.I do understand and It's both! If the Courts rule in her favor and Parents pull their kids out of public schools, will they be criticized? We're back to the issue of lines/boundaries
You are taking this as a moral issue not as a civil rights issue, that's why you don't understand.
If you accept that we are born in certain ways, no better or worse, no judgement then this is a no brainer. If you cannot accept it as something that just is like left-handedness then you will feel uncomfortable with the acceptance of these folks, bottom line.
We either agree on this or don't agree. I know where you are coming from and I understand but I don't agree.
If you accept that we are born in certain ways, no better or worse, no judgement then this is a no brainer. If you cannot accept it as something that just is like left-handedness then you will feel uncomfortable with the acceptance of these folks, bottom line.
We either agree on this or don't agree. I know where you are coming from and I understand but I don't agree.
"I know I am repeating myself, but where will the Lines or Boundaries be drawn? Will one day, Boy’s be allowed in The Girl Scouts? Will the parents be condemned because they refuse to allow their Daughters to hang out with Little Boys Dressed in a Girl Scout Uniform, going door to door selling Cookies? It sounds silly until you think about it."
Transgender student suit goes to Maine high court
"Nicole Maines, now 15, watched lawyers argue over whether her rights were violated when the Orono school district required her to use a staff bathroom after there was a complaint about her using the girls' bathroom."
"Maines is a biological male who from an early age identified as a girl."
http://news.yahoo.com/transgender-student-suit-goes-maine-high-court-153230913.html
Transgender student suit goes to Maine high court
"Nicole Maines, now 15, watched lawyers argue over whether her rights were violated when the Orono school district required her to use a staff bathroom after there was a complaint about her using the girls' bathroom."
"Maines is a biological male who from an early age identified as a girl."
http://news.yahoo.com/transgender-student-suit-goes-maine-high-court-153230913.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556756
Previous investigations have indicated that the ratio of sex offenders against female children vs. offenders against male children is approximately 2:1
Please show me an updated study that states homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals.
The commonly accepted view is that people who sexually assault children do not have a gender preference so much as they have a desire to dominate and sexually abuse children.
I think of it like rape. A rapist does not "love" women. He is not attracted to the woman he assaults, he wants to overpower aher and violate her. It is an act of violence, a pathetic grab for power by abusing someone weaker than himself.
Previous investigations have indicated that the ratio of sex offenders against female children vs. offenders against male children is approximately 2:1
Please show me an updated study that states homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals.
The commonly accepted view is that people who sexually assault children do not have a gender preference so much as they have a desire to dominate and sexually abuse children.
I think of it like rape. A rapist does not "love" women. He is not attracted to the woman he assaults, he wants to overpower aher and violate her. It is an act of violence, a pathetic grab for power by abusing someone weaker than himself.
The sited people of Groth and Birnbaum study done in 1978. A lot has changed including people coming out and also being bi. I take there study with a grain of salt since the world has changed.
Okay when answering your post I realized that I need more information, I too have gaps in my understanding of these issues.
I recommend you click on the link and read it all, it very clearly explains what child molestation is and how it is not related to ones sexual orientation.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
problem related to terminology arises because sexual abuse of male children by adult men2 is often referred to as "homosexual molestation." The adjective "homosexual" (or "heterosexual" when a man abuses a female child) refers to the victim's gender in relation to that of the perpetrator. Unfortunately, people sometimes mistakenly interpret it as referring to the perpetrator's sexual orientation.
To avoid this confusion, it is preferable to refer to men's sexual abuse of boys with the more accurate label of male-male molestation. Similarly, it is preferable to refer to men's abuse of girls as male-female molestation. These labels are more accurate because they describe the sex of the individuals involved but don't implicitly convey unwarranted assumptions about the perpetrator's sexual orientation.
Typologies of
Offenders The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.
Over the years, this fact has been incorporated into various systems for categorizing child molesters. For example, Finkelhor and Araji (1986) proposed that perpetrators' sexual attractions should be conceptualized as ranging along a continuum – from exclusive interest in children at one extreme, to exclusive interest in adult partners at the other end.
Typologies of offenders have often included a distinction between those with an enduring primary preference for children as sexual partners and those who have established age-appropriate relationships but become sexually involved with children under unusual circumstances of extreme stress. Perpetrators in the first category – those with a more or less exclusive interest in children – have been labeled fixated. Fixation means "a temporary or permanent arrestment of psychological maturation resulting from unresolved formative issues which persist and underlie the organization of subsequent phases of development" (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978, p. 176). Many clinicians view fixated offenders as being "stuck" at an early stage of psychological development.
By contrast, other molesters are described as regressed. Regression is "a temporary or permanent appearance of primitive behavior after more mature forms of expression had been attained, regardless of whether the immature behavior was actually manifested earlier in the individual's development" (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978, p. 177). Regressed offenders have developed an adult sexual orientation but under certain conditions (such as extreme stress) they return to an earlier, less mature psychological state and engage in sexual contact with children.
Some typologies of child molesters divide the fixation-regression distinction into multiple categories, and some include additional categories as well (e.g., Knight, 1989).
For the present discussion, the important point is that many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.
Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).
Other
Approaches Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% of cases in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).
I recommend you click on the link and read it all, it very clearly explains what child molestation is and how it is not related to ones sexual orientation.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
problem related to terminology arises because sexual abuse of male children by adult men2 is often referred to as "homosexual molestation." The adjective "homosexual" (or "heterosexual" when a man abuses a female child) refers to the victim's gender in relation to that of the perpetrator. Unfortunately, people sometimes mistakenly interpret it as referring to the perpetrator's sexual orientation.
To avoid this confusion, it is preferable to refer to men's sexual abuse of boys with the more accurate label of male-male molestation. Similarly, it is preferable to refer to men's abuse of girls as male-female molestation. These labels are more accurate because they describe the sex of the individuals involved but don't implicitly convey unwarranted assumptions about the perpetrator's sexual orientation.
Typologies of
Offenders The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.
Over the years, this fact has been incorporated into various systems for categorizing child molesters. For example, Finkelhor and Araji (1986) proposed that perpetrators' sexual attractions should be conceptualized as ranging along a continuum – from exclusive interest in children at one extreme, to exclusive interest in adult partners at the other end.
Typologies of offenders have often included a distinction between those with an enduring primary preference for children as sexual partners and those who have established age-appropriate relationships but become sexually involved with children under unusual circumstances of extreme stress. Perpetrators in the first category – those with a more or less exclusive interest in children – have been labeled fixated. Fixation means "a temporary or permanent arrestment of psychological maturation resulting from unresolved formative issues which persist and underlie the organization of subsequent phases of development" (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978, p. 176). Many clinicians view fixated offenders as being "stuck" at an early stage of psychological development.
By contrast, other molesters are described as regressed. Regression is "a temporary or permanent appearance of primitive behavior after more mature forms of expression had been attained, regardless of whether the immature behavior was actually manifested earlier in the individual's development" (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978, p. 177). Regressed offenders have developed an adult sexual orientation but under certain conditions (such as extreme stress) they return to an earlier, less mature psychological state and engage in sexual contact with children.
Some typologies of child molesters divide the fixation-regression distinction into multiple categories, and some include additional categories as well (e.g., Knight, 1989).
For the present discussion, the important point is that many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.
Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).
Other
Approaches Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% of cases in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).
I didn't say that women or gay men cannot be pedophiles but statistically it is higher in heterosexual men.
I may be in a minority on this but in my opinion, though terribly wrong, I do not categorize sex with teens as pedophilia. In no way do I excuse a teacher's unethical behavior when s/he has sex with an adolescent...it is exploitative, extremely harmful and a terrible betrayal of trust but to me it still does not stand as behaving sexually toward a child.
I may be in a minority on this but in my opinion, though terribly wrong, I do not categorize sex with teens as pedophilia. In no way do I excuse a teacher's unethical behavior when s/he has sex with an adolescent...it is exploitative, extremely harmful and a terrible betrayal of trust but to me it still does not stand as behaving sexually toward a child.
I beg to differ. How many of these teachers that have come out recently having sex with students have been men?
I would also say that if a man molests a boy that disqualifies him from being straight.
I would also say that if a man molests a boy that disqualifies him from being straight.
There are so many people who cannot make the distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia. That is just a bit more of the ignorance that we have in society. ---------------------------------------------
Absolutely!
Most pedophiles are heterosexual men.
So many churches sponsor scout groups, so that may be the connection that jules is making.
There are so many people who cannot make the distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia. That is just a bit more of the ignorance that we have in society.
There are so many people who cannot make the distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia. That is just a bit more of the ignorance that we have in society.
So you blame the church?? What kind of connection can you make from boy scouts to the church?
What I think is stupid is the young kids being pulled out of Cub Scouts because parents don't want them around gay kids. At age 7-8 and whatever a kid does not know if they are gay.
But older kids then the parents have that choice. Doesn't matter to me and doesn't effect my life and never will.
What I think is stupid is the young kids being pulled out of Cub Scouts because parents don't want them around gay kids. At age 7-8 and whatever a kid does not know if they are gay.
But older kids then the parents have that choice. Doesn't matter to me and doesn't effect my life and never will.
I dont think the Boy Scouts are the problem I think its the Catholic Church. There is a huge difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.
Don't get me wrong. These people are absolutely in charge of the way they want to raise their kids. I don't want to interfere with that. But like teko said, gays have been involved in scouts for probably as long as the organization has been around... people just didn't talk about it and that is okay. I don't think it is something that needs to be discussed.... Scout meetings aren't held on heterosexuality, neither should they be on homosexuality.
I've always been of the opinion that scouts were an organization that supported young kids become grounded and well rounded individuals. I don't think sexuality has anything to do with that. (And honestly, if it were up to me, there'd be a little less "bible thumping" in scouts... but that's just me.)
I've always been of the opinion that scouts were an organization that supported young kids become grounded and well rounded individuals. I don't think sexuality has anything to do with that. (And honestly, if it were up to me, there'd be a little less "bible thumping" in scouts... but that's just me.)
These very people sit and sin all day long and they are teaching their kids which sin is okay and which sin God will punish you for?
Exactly and this to me sums it up.
Reminds me of a time when certain people had to sit in the back of the bus cause they was different than the do gooders and moral hypocrits of our country. Or could not use the same bathroom as us cause they had "different diseases".
Exactly and this to me sums it up.
Reminds me of a time when certain people had to sit in the back of the bus cause they was different than the do gooders and moral hypocrits of our country. Or could not use the same bathroom as us cause they had "different diseases".
Leaning toward Agnosticism, I was careful to not mention Sin or God. I did say and believe “if a Parent believes Homosexuality is Immoral, they would be neglecting their responsibility as a Parent by allowing their Children to participate in something that supports things that goes against their Moral Values” and we shouldn’t condemn them for it. I have no doubt some are acting out of Pure Bigotry but most are doing what they feel is best for their children. It doesn’t matter if we agree with them or not. It’s their responsibility to raise their children as they see fit.
I know I am repeating myself, but where will the Lines or Boundaries be drawn? Will one day, Boy’s be allowed in The Girl Scouts? Will the parents be condemned because they refuse to allow their Daughters to hang out with Little Boys Dressed in a Girl Scout Uniform, going door to door selling Cookies? It sounds silly until you think about it.
I know I am repeating myself, but where will the Lines or Boundaries be drawn? Will one day, Boy’s be allowed in The Girl Scouts? Will the parents be condemned because they refuse to allow their Daughters to hang out with Little Boys Dressed in a Girl Scout Uniform, going door to door selling Cookies? It sounds silly until you think about it.
I haven't said a thing until right now....
This is a decision every parent can make all day long if they want. I know the organization has a bit to do with religion as God is mentioned in nearly every ceremony. And its okay to instill the moral beliefs that homosexuality is immoral and a sin and all of that.... but then hypocrisy steps in. These very people sit and sin all day long and they are teaching their kids which sin is okay and which sin God will punish you for? Whatever... your God, so I guess your God will do whatever you want him to do....
How many of these "moral compass parents" use tobacco on scout outings? How many drink? How many exhibit road rage? This list goes on and on and I've dealt with a lot of people that are ignorant regarding gay people. We've had some real bigots involved here locally... they are anti gay, but outside of scout meetings these people live life no where near the scout motto, and neither do their kids. And that's okay too... I can't change it. The hypocrisy is abundant.... and the hypocrites ignore the hypocrisy.
This is a decision every parent can make all day long if they want. I know the organization has a bit to do with religion as God is mentioned in nearly every ceremony. And its okay to instill the moral beliefs that homosexuality is immoral and a sin and all of that.... but then hypocrisy steps in. These very people sit and sin all day long and they are teaching their kids which sin is okay and which sin God will punish you for? Whatever... your God, so I guess your God will do whatever you want him to do....
How many of these "moral compass parents" use tobacco on scout outings? How many drink? How many exhibit road rage? This list goes on and on and I've dealt with a lot of people that are ignorant regarding gay people. We've had some real bigots involved here locally... they are anti gay, but outside of scout meetings these people live life no where near the scout motto, and neither do their kids. And that's okay too... I can't change it. The hypocrisy is abundant.... and the hypocrites ignore the hypocrisy.
I think you meant me not Brice. It is a Parent’s responsibility to raise their Children according to their Moral Values. If they believe Homosexuality is Immoral, they would be neglecting their responsibility as a Parent by allowing their Children to participate in something that supports things that goes against their Moral Values.
Personally, I really don’t care one way or the other but I do believe we should have lines and boundaries.
“I mean, like it or not, it is now part of society and they can either accept it or live in a cocoon dont ya think? Its all over television so are they going to ditch the tv as well?”
Alcohol and Drugs also fit into these categories. Most people believe it is a disease. So, if a Troop leader or Scout gets wasted should this to be accepted? After all, it is a disease. Would it be wrong for a Parent to pull his child out? I’m speaking Hypothetically (before anyone jumps on their Soup Box). I think we would all agree the parent should remove his child. Thus the Lines and Bounderies
Even though the Political Correct (God I hate that Phrase) thing to do is embrace Homosexuality with open arms. The fact is everyone does not and that is their Right and we have no Right to condemn them for doing what they feel is best for their Children.
This concerns me,
“As for adult leaders and volunteers, Boy Scouts officials last week said there would be no change to the adult membership policy, which excludes gays.”
“Gay rights activists pledged to continue their campaign to include adults even as they applauded the vote.”
It looks to me The LGBT will never be satisfied until they control The Boy Scouts and they don’t seem to care if they destroy it in the process. That is why I said, “They will rebound or die. Either way, LGBT will see it as a Victory.”
Personally, I really don’t care one way or the other but I do believe we should have lines and boundaries.
“I mean, like it or not, it is now part of society and they can either accept it or live in a cocoon dont ya think? Its all over television so are they going to ditch the tv as well?”
Alcohol and Drugs also fit into these categories. Most people believe it is a disease. So, if a Troop leader or Scout gets wasted should this to be accepted? After all, it is a disease. Would it be wrong for a Parent to pull his child out? I’m speaking Hypothetically (before anyone jumps on their Soup Box). I think we would all agree the parent should remove his child. Thus the Lines and Bounderies
Even though the Political Correct (God I hate that Phrase) thing to do is embrace Homosexuality with open arms. The fact is everyone does not and that is their Right and we have no Right to condemn them for doing what they feel is best for their Children.
This concerns me,
“As for adult leaders and volunteers, Boy Scouts officials last week said there would be no change to the adult membership policy, which excludes gays.”
“Gay rights activists pledged to continue their campaign to include adults even as they applauded the vote.”
It looks to me The LGBT will never be satisfied until they control The Boy Scouts and they don’t seem to care if they destroy it in the process. That is why I said, “They will rebound or die. Either way, LGBT will see it as a Victory.”
But they were always there already brice, they just didnt talk about it, same with the leaders. Are these parents going to keep their children out of school sports or functions as well? I mean, like it or not, it is now part of society and they can either accept it or live in a cocoon dont ya think? Its all over television so are they going to ditch the tv as well? Why make the children miss out on a great childhood experience like that. It seems very immature to me and the only one to lose are the children that are kept out due to bias. Just my opinion
You must join this user group in order to participate in this discussion.
You are reading content posted in the Current Events . . . Group
A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex.
STIs are the most common cause of genital sores.
Condoms are the most effective way to prevent HIV and STDs.
PrEP is used by people with high risk to prevent HIV infection.
