Aa
Blatant lies by 'Herbal doctors'
I was looking at the link above to a Dr. Ren who claims to be a heptologist.
Ok, I will not debate his claim that
"Using specially selected herbs, Dr. Ren has brought ALT levels back to normal in more than 98% of Hepatitis C cases within one to two months of treatment. Even more impressive, Dr. Ren's herbal treatment has reduced HCV levels in about 95% of his patients and cut liver-enzyme counts (SGPT) to normal in more than 90% of his hepatitis patients."
My problem is his credibility is completely destroyed, when as a heptologist, he goes on to say
"Conventional treatment normally involves repeated injections of interferon, often coupled with ribavarin, to stop the virus from reproducing. At best, the treatment is effective in no more than 30-40% of infected people."
Typical scare marketing tactics that are just lies. Where does he get his numbers from? Why would he lie?
Ok, I will not debate his claim that
"Using specially selected herbs, Dr. Ren has brought ALT levels back to normal in more than 98% of Hepatitis C cases within one to two months of treatment. Even more impressive, Dr. Ren's herbal treatment has reduced HCV levels in about 95% of his patients and cut liver-enzyme counts (SGPT) to normal in more than 90% of his hepatitis patients."
My problem is his credibility is completely destroyed, when as a heptologist, he goes on to say
"Conventional treatment normally involves repeated injections of interferon, often coupled with ribavarin, to stop the virus from reproducing. At best, the treatment is effective in no more than 30-40% of infected people."
Typical scare marketing tactics that are just lies. Where does he get his numbers from? Why would he lie?
Well starting with the fact that ast/alt numbers lowering is one thing and killing off the virus is completely another I'd say........he's trying to make money but never really said he has a cure?
Yes, he is very smart (in a legal sense). If you go read the testimonials, it is his patients that claim they are cured.
One 'cured' patient even admits of having a 'relapse' and blames stress!
One 'cured' patient even admits of having a 'relapse' and blames stress!
Don't want to get into another MH "Herbal Squable" but here are a few thoughts.
Dr. Ren (yes, he's a medical doctor as well as a herbologist) has a relatively good reputation in terms of alternative treatment. In fact, I believe I remember reading that he has been invited to and spoken at groups including well-known conventional hepatologists on his approach.
Dr. Ren does not claim to "cure" HCV, but to reduce liver enzymes and viral load, as well as to possibly reduce fibrosis. I think his approach (or similar approaches by another alternative practioner, Dr. Misha Cohen, etc) may be appropriate for some individuals who are either not ready to treat or who have failed with conventional meds and aren't ready to re-treat. Assuming, of course, that the herbs he prescribes are checked out against a list of "banned" herbs. I believe such a list was comprised by Dr. Gish in SF. Not sure.
The main problem with these alternative approaches is that it may keep some people away from SOC who really need it. Therefore, in spite of any potential enzyme or viral load reduction, liver damage should be routinely monitored by liver biopsy or Fibroscan to make sure that the liver is moving in the right direction.
I do agree with JBoyhk, that one of the testimonials was misleading in that it does use the "cure" word while Dr. Ren specifically makes no claims. This was disappointing and IMO irresponsible to post, even though the patient may indeed have believed he was cured.
-- Jim
Dr. Ren (yes, he's a medical doctor as well as a herbologist) has a relatively good reputation in terms of alternative treatment. In fact, I believe I remember reading that he has been invited to and spoken at groups including well-known conventional hepatologists on his approach.
Dr. Ren does not claim to "cure" HCV, but to reduce liver enzymes and viral load, as well as to possibly reduce fibrosis. I think his approach (or similar approaches by another alternative practioner, Dr. Misha Cohen, etc) may be appropriate for some individuals who are either not ready to treat or who have failed with conventional meds and aren't ready to re-treat. Assuming, of course, that the herbs he prescribes are checked out against a list of "banned" herbs. I believe such a list was comprised by Dr. Gish in SF. Not sure.
The main problem with these alternative approaches is that it may keep some people away from SOC who really need it. Therefore, in spite of any potential enzyme or viral load reduction, liver damage should be routinely monitored by liver biopsy or Fibroscan to make sure that the liver is moving in the right direction.
I do agree with JBoyhk, that one of the testimonials was misleading in that it does use the "cure" word while Dr. Ren specifically makes no claims. This was disappointing and IMO irresponsible to post, even though the patient may indeed have believed he was cured.
-- Jim
Regarding the "30-40%" SVR numbers on Dr. Ren's website. I agree they're on the short side, as we usually use 50-50, but to give him a break, maybe he's including previous non-responders as well, and I've also seen several 'challenges" to the 50-50 stated rates, including some by doctors like Dr. C.
http://www.hepatitisdoctor.com/pegasys.htm
Not saying I agree with Dr. C's analysis, but just that you probably can't overly fault Ren with taking a conservative approach to the data, just as you probably can't overly fault most western doctors for dimissing TCM outright. In my case, as a 58 year-old male with stage 3, I figured my chances of SVR were no better than 40 per cent with SOC and fortunatly I beat the odds.
-- Jim
http://www.hepatitisdoctor.com/pegasys.htm
Not saying I agree with Dr. C's analysis, but just that you probably can't overly fault Ren with taking a conservative approach to the data, just as you probably can't overly fault most western doctors for dimissing TCM outright. In my case, as a 58 year-old male with stage 3, I figured my chances of SVR were no better than 40 per cent with SOC and fortunatly I beat the odds.
-- Jim
I think it's the "fine print" rule in effect sort of
Like where you hear a commercial "all for $29.99 a month" but...they don't tell you the second year it goes up to $1299.99
It's all in the verbiage and sort of like false advertising - where it's NOT but it's not exactly the truth.
I mean hey I can sell you bottled water and tell you it's a good cure for the sides for tx but in reality big whoop it ain't curing the anemia and such.
LOL jez everything in my world even stupid analogies now relate to hep........I need a LIFE :)
Like where you hear a commercial "all for $29.99 a month" but...they don't tell you the second year it goes up to $1299.99
It's all in the verbiage and sort of like false advertising - where it's NOT but it's not exactly the truth.
I mean hey I can sell you bottled water and tell you it's a good cure for the sides for tx but in reality big whoop it ain't curing the anemia and such.
LOL jez everything in my world even stupid analogies now relate to hep........I need a LIFE :)
Really good post Jim...there are plenty of TRUE snake oil salesman out there, but not everybody is a snake oil salesman that know something besides and could possibly work with SOC...some people seem to think that if you are not completely in line with SOC, and you take ANYTHING complementary, that youre some kind of dupe waiting to get ripped off...
Youre points are well taken, I think the biggest problem with some of the complimentary stuff is that some people who really need SOC will not do it cause they think they can do something else way less harsh...well these people will do or not do whatever they think best after they've been around awhile and are not complete newbies...they can even get educated or not get educated about the disease and it's various treatments, medical or not, that's their right...some people will do whatever they want to do, and not hear anything they don't want to hear...nothing any of us can do will stop people like this...
But sometimes, when I hear of people who have treated 3 times and cannot treat anymore, and their alts and ats are high, they don't feel well, etc etc...I think, well maybe they could take a few things that I take, and at least keep the inflammation down a bit OR AT LEAST TRY, THEY COULD ALWAYS STOP IF IT DOESN'T WORK....(mine have always been low but once) and perhaps feel a bit better....
but maybe they've heard a constant drum roll from some patients here that ALL of this stuff is bad and probably will harm you....
but come on, if herbals killed as many people as say, Vioxx did, upwards of 30,000, there would be rioting in the streets and the head of the company would be lynched...if you want to make a case that they are ineffective, that will swing with me a lot more then this constant that they are very harmful...
let's see the stats on that...I've seen some on the complementaries,...point is, some people here and elsewhere, who are no longer are candidates for SOC, could be helping themselves a little, not curing themselves, but helping themselves...maybe...and that's important too...
My mother took Vioxx for a week for her arthritis, and it upped her usually low blood pressure to over 200, in a week....now she has to take bp meds for the rest of her life cause of that stuff, hopefully she didn't get cardiac issues...yet, I wouldnt advise her to quit taking conventional meds because of that bad one...I do think OBJECTIVITY in these discusssions would do wonders for everybody...objectivity and education on all sides...with all due respect for everyone involved...
Youre points are well taken, I think the biggest problem with some of the complimentary stuff is that some people who really need SOC will not do it cause they think they can do something else way less harsh...well these people will do or not do whatever they think best after they've been around awhile and are not complete newbies...they can even get educated or not get educated about the disease and it's various treatments, medical or not, that's their right...some people will do whatever they want to do, and not hear anything they don't want to hear...nothing any of us can do will stop people like this...
But sometimes, when I hear of people who have treated 3 times and cannot treat anymore, and their alts and ats are high, they don't feel well, etc etc...I think, well maybe they could take a few things that I take, and at least keep the inflammation down a bit OR AT LEAST TRY, THEY COULD ALWAYS STOP IF IT DOESN'T WORK....(mine have always been low but once) and perhaps feel a bit better....
but maybe they've heard a constant drum roll from some patients here that ALL of this stuff is bad and probably will harm you....
but come on, if herbals killed as many people as say, Vioxx did, upwards of 30,000, there would be rioting in the streets and the head of the company would be lynched...if you want to make a case that they are ineffective, that will swing with me a lot more then this constant that they are very harmful...
let's see the stats on that...I've seen some on the complementaries,...point is, some people here and elsewhere, who are no longer are candidates for SOC, could be helping themselves a little, not curing themselves, but helping themselves...maybe...and that's important too...
My mother took Vioxx for a week for her arthritis, and it upped her usually low blood pressure to over 200, in a week....now she has to take bp meds for the rest of her life cause of that stuff, hopefully she didn't get cardiac issues...yet, I wouldnt advise her to quit taking conventional meds because of that bad one...I do think OBJECTIVITY in these discusssions would do wonders for everybody...objectivity and education on all sides...with all due respect for everyone involved...
Excellent points from everyone. I get angry with people who tout herbal "cures" for HepC because 1) it's giving people false hope and preying on their desire, even desperation, to get well; 2) not everyone has the resources to understand these things and separate fact from fiction, whatever those resources might be -- information, intelligence, etc.
As I told a very good friend, I am open to possibilities. Acupuncture, Liver-Ite, lots of water, not smoking, not drinking, and a proper diet can, I think, make a difference in one's overall health as well as hopefully help our livers, but none of the above, so far as I know, can kill the Hepatitis C virus. Now that I've been excluded from the PROVE 3 trials, I will be consulting this friend for dietary suggestions, etc., but I have been adamant that she acknowledge that she cannot kill this virus. I don't believe any herb out there can. My friend finally started to get it as she was suggesting various liver-healthy foods and I was shaking my head no. She insisted they're good for her liver and make her feel wonderful, but I had to say it two or three times before I saw the look of understanding cross her face. I said to her, "But you're not sick. You're not sick!" "Yes, but you're not sick!"
As I told a very good friend, I am open to possibilities. Acupuncture, Liver-Ite, lots of water, not smoking, not drinking, and a proper diet can, I think, make a difference in one's overall health as well as hopefully help our livers, but none of the above, so far as I know, can kill the Hepatitis C virus. Now that I've been excluded from the PROVE 3 trials, I will be consulting this friend for dietary suggestions, etc., but I have been adamant that she acknowledge that she cannot kill this virus. I don't believe any herb out there can. My friend finally started to get it as she was suggesting various liver-healthy foods and I was shaking my head no. She insisted they're good for her liver and make her feel wonderful, but I had to say it two or three times before I saw the look of understanding cross her face. I said to her, "But you're not sick. You're not sick!" "Yes, but you're not sick!"
Not a fan of the 'bait and switch', huh. One to many lead singers with a sock in their Levi's? There oughtta be a law.....
You don't see anything unethical by saying 'best case'?
Best case is 1a,1b 50% ; 2a,b 75%; 3&4 80%
That weighted average return is far greater than 30-40% if you are looking at 'best case'.
Best case is 1a,1b 50% ; 2a,b 75%; 3&4 80%
That weighted average return is far greater than 30-40% if you are looking at 'best case'.
JBoy:You don't see anything unethical by saying 'best case'?
Best case is 1a,1b 50% ; 2a,b 75%; 3&4 80%
----------------------------------------------------
Yes, I see your point, although giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think it still falls short of the "blatant lies" category. Based on his reputation, I'd probably want to withold final judgement until I saw how he would (or would not) support those statistics as a hepatologist. Perhaps he has some disagreement with current studies or his stats are based on older studies and he hasn't updated his web site, but the latter is really not a very good excuse. I guess one point I was trying to make earlier is that many of the alternative practioners
do seem to exagerrate claims and rely heavily on often unsupported anecdotal cases but that still doesn't mean they can't do some good in the same way as many conventional practitioners also often hand us a bunch of crock but also do some good. Thanks though for calling this to our attention and maybe someone should email him and ask where the figures come from.
-- Jim
Best case is 1a,1b 50% ; 2a,b 75%; 3&4 80%
----------------------------------------------------
Yes, I see your point, although giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think it still falls short of the "blatant lies" category. Based on his reputation, I'd probably want to withold final judgement until I saw how he would (or would not) support those statistics as a hepatologist. Perhaps he has some disagreement with current studies or his stats are based on older studies and he hasn't updated his web site, but the latter is really not a very good excuse. I guess one point I was trying to make earlier is that many of the alternative practioners
do seem to exagerrate claims and rely heavily on often unsupported anecdotal cases but that still doesn't mean they can't do some good in the same way as many conventional practitioners also often hand us a bunch of crock but also do some good. Thanks though for calling this to our attention and maybe someone should email him and ask where the figures come from.
-- Jim
Another point is the possiblity that Dr. Ren displays the same lack of sophistication and incomplete knowledge in Western Medicine/Studies as Western doctors do in TCM. I'm certainly not trying to argue your points or defend Dr. Ren, just trying to give the benefit of the doubt as he seems well intentioned and knowledgeable in terms of herbal treatments. Still, Caveat Emptor, be it with your hepatologist trying to fill a blank space in a new drug trial, or with a Dr. of TCM trying to make a mortgage payment.
-- Jim
-- Jim
Personally, I love your analogies, bottled water is a great one! Another was the "overly educated obsessive MedHelp patient"
Ain't that the truth!
Keep making us smile, thanks.
Bug
Ain't that the truth!
Keep making us smile, thanks.
Bug
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