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3060903 tn?1398565123

Hepatitis C a reason for my recent ER trip?

I suffer from Type 2 Diabetes (recent diagnosis) but have chosen not to take meds and control it with nutrition. I'm doing fine with that. I also have HepC and am awaiting a biopsy and fibroscan. The question I have is this. The other week I went into emerg with what they said was a "slight infection". I vomitted and had diarreah simultaneously before the ambulance was called. I was unable to understand anything, could'nt give my birthdate or even answer how many fingers were held up. I was in emerg for 8 hours before they let me go. My question is this, could this have anything to do with my hepatitis C? I didn't have any input really from the doctor. Could I have been dehydrated? Any comments?
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163305 tn?1333668571
I don't' usually say this to people, but I think your doctor is an idiot.
Encephalopathy is serious.
It can put you into a coma and cause brain damage.
The only way your doctor can check for that and ascites is with a proper exam and blood tests.
If I were you, I'd change doctors NOW !

There is no way any creditable doctor would prescribe lactulose or any medication without first being sure of the diagnosis.

You don't' seem to understand how serious this is to your health, more serious than smoking cigarettes though  I congratulate you on that.
The fact that you don't understand the seriousness makes me think even more that you do  in fact have encephalopathy. Mental confusion, being in a haze, are two big clues.

Please take the time to slowly read what I have copied and pasted below.



http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/ascites/overview.html
Exams and Tests

A physical examination may reveal a swollen abdomen, or belly.

Test to evaluate the liver may be done, including:

    24-hour urine collection
    Creatinine and electrolytes
    Kidney function tests
    Liver enzyme, bilirubin, coagulation, and serum protein tests
    Urinalysis

Paracentesis or abdominal tap may be performed. This procedure involves using a thin needle to pull fluid from the abdomen. The fluid is tested in various ways to determine the cause of ascites.


http://www.medicinenet.com/encephalopathy/page4.htm#how_is_encephalopathy_diagnosed

What are the symptoms of encephalopathy?

Despite the numerous and varied causes of encephalopathy, at least one symptom present in all cases is an altered mental state. The altered mental state may be subtle and develop slowly over years (for example, in hepatitis the decreased ability to draw simple designs, termed apraxia) or be profoundly obvious and develop rapidly (for example, brain anoxia leading to coma or death in a few minutes). Often, symptoms of altered mental status can present as inattentiveness, poor judgment, or poor coordination of movements.

Other serious symptoms that may occur include:

    lethargy,
    dementia,
    seizures,
    tremors,
    muscle twitching and myalgia,
    Cheyne-Stokes respirations (an altered breathing pattern seen with brain damage and coma), and
    coma.

How is encephalopathy diagnosed?

The diagnosis of encephalopathy is usually done by clinical tests done during the physical examination (mental status tests, memory tests, and coordination tests) that document an altered mental state. With most cases, findings on clinical tests either diagnose or presumptively diagnose encephalopathy. Usually, the diagnosis occurs when the altered mental state accompanies another primary diagnosis such as chronic liver disease, kidney failure, anoxia, or many other diagnoses.

Consequently, physicians may utilize several different tests at the same time to diagnose both the primary condition (the cause of encephalopathy) and the encephalopathy itself. This approach to diagnosis is done by most physicians, because many doctors view encephalopathy as a complication that occurs because of a primary underlying health problem. The most frequently utilized tests are listed below with some of the major primary causes the tests may help diagnose:

    Complete blood count or CBC (infections or loss of blood)
    Blood pressure (high or low blood pressure)
    Metabolic tests (blood levels of electrolytes, glucose, lactate, ammonia, oxygen, and liver enzymes)
    Drugs or toxin levels (alcohol, cocaine, amphetamines, and many others)
    Blood and body fluid cultures and analyses (infections of many types)
    Creatinine (kidney function)
    CT and MRI scans (brain swelling, anatomical abnormalities, or infections)
    Doppler ultrasound (abnormal blood flow to tissues or abscesses)
    Encephalogram or EEG (brain damage or abnormal brain wave patterns)
    Autoantibody analysis (dementia caused by antibodies that destroy neurons)
    Review of the person's medications as some medications (for example, cyclosporine) may be responsible for symptoms

This list is not exhaustive, and not all of the above tests need to be done to reach a diagnosis; specific testing is usually ordered by the treating physician according to the symptoms and history of the patient
Helpful - 0
163305 tn?1333668571
Your doctor sounds rather ignorant.
Yes, your eyes can turn yellow and your urine an amber color from liver damage but just because they are not, doesn't rule out HE.
The way to tell is by blood labs.
Did she run a lab for your ammonia levels ? If not why not? Did you ask for one, you should have.

It's time you began seeing someone qualified to take care of your liver, a hepatologist.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
Thanks Idyllic for your support and your understanding.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
So thanks to orphanedhawk, I've started on my nicotine patches and  have managed right off the bat to cut my habit in half. With the extra energy I have i'm trying to stop procrastinating (what we do when we smoke) and get moving on with my life on a faster speed. That should make a huge difference (maybe another half of smokes left). Gerry has said that he will spot me cig for cig, so we'll be on the same page and quitting smoking inside the house on the same day/ then it's outside only and then it's for good.  I feel really good about this. But, I know that it'll get harder before i'm out of the woods. I'm feeling a little more energy here on day 2. First day, no energy at all. My doctor told me that if i had Hepatic Encephalopathy: the Er would have found my urine red and my eyes yellow, so i asked if i could go on the lactulose anyways and she said yes, but forgot to put it on my script. so i'll do it next time i see her.  She told me that I didn't have Ascities, because the last time (3months ago) there was no liquid, just "fat". When I go for my fibroscan i'll get them to check for liquid in my stomache and check for Ascities. So now, i'm just waiting on my fibroscan. Getting my husband into my doctor so I can push for a fibroscan for him as well. And at that point going to get a referral to our teaching hospital/liver transplant hospital here, Toronto Western. Thanks for all of your help. It means so much to be able to ask our questions. Knowing about a cirrhosis diagnosis will speed up our questions and information that we are given.  I'll keep you informed. Thanks for caring.
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766573 tn?1365166466
Hey a quit date for stopping smoking together is a good idea - no matter when you decide to do it. It is a tough thing to do either way but way easier if the other person in the house is not still smoking.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
I got you orphanedhawk, i'm gong to the doc right now, i'll ask for nicotine patches, thanks for your post. weaning down with nicotine is better than the adding the other 300 toxins, right? Okay, i'll keep you informed. have a great day everyone!
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163305 tn?1333668571
The thing you need to find out, for yourself and your husband is what condition your liver is in.
He does not necessarily have the same amount of damage that you have, even if you were infected on the exact same day.
The virus doesn't work like that.
Some people's bodies are more able to resist it's affects than others.

No, don't wait for the new year to quit smoking. Do it now !
Smoke like everything you eat and breath is filtered through your liver
. If you want to continue living, you've got to realize this is serious. Stop now. You don't have to do it together.
You are the one who was in delirious in the hospital, not him.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
Learning from you all IS allowing Gerry and myself to feel somewhat "brave" as we stand on the edge of this abyss, as opposed to being overwhelmed with the fears that come from knowing zip about this disease. It is so much easier to hear these thing from you all that have experienced them, rather than to try to rifle through the internet for some clue as to what's going on now with our bodies, or what we can expect to maybe happen in the future. Honestly, I wouldn't know where to even start.

MD appointment on Sunday, fibroscan mid October. Now, I'm more worried about my husband than myself, in that his doctor missed some of the blood work that i had requested.  So, not only have I got him to join me on a "quit" date in the new year for smoking, he's also agreed that we would both be better off with the same doctor, so that I can use your advice here, with him. This is a HUGE worry off of my mind.

Thanks from the bottom of our hearts for picking up my thread after my ER trip!
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Avatar universal
  Thank you, Hector.   It is alarming that a Doctor wouldn't feel treatment was needed, when he/she first discovered NH"s liver to be scarred.
  
  
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163305 tn?1333668571
Thanks for the clarification. I thought scarring always meant cirrhosis.
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446474 tn?1446347682
Fibrosis and cirrhosis

After the liver has been inflamed for a long period of time (for example from chronic hepatitis C) connective tissues in the liver lobule accumulate. Fibrosis is accumulation of extracellular matrix proteins including collagens in different parts of the liver lobule. Fibrosis is asymptomatic and its major clinical importance is the potential for progression to cirrhosis.

Cirrhosis cover a wide range of illness. It can be asymptomatic or or near death. Death can result from progression of liver failure, from complication of portal hypertension (bleeding), or from hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC).

Stage 1 cirrhosis:
Scarring always means cirrhosis. Although in early cirrhosis there may be incomplete scarring and the cross-linking of collagen. This can occur when there is little portal hypertension and no varices. No symptoms may exist.

Stage 2 cirrhosis:
Cirrhosis, in particular the development of portal hypertension, is responsible for the clinical manifestations of chronic liver disease. During more advanced compensated cirrhosis portal hypertension will exist with a HVPG (hepatic venous pressure gradient) of >10 mmHg. Varices will be present and the architecture of the liver changes. This is when thick cellular scaring is present and regenerative nodules exists in the liver. This interferes with vascular blood flow resulting in portal hypertension. This is when any imaging study can confirm the diagnosis of cirrhosis by seeing the regenerative nodular growths. Which is the classic sign of cirrhosis. No symptoms may exist.

Stages 3,4,5 cirrhosis
When the cirrhosis becomes decompensated the liver can no longer perform all of its functions. This is when the complications of cirrhosis appear. HVPG  is then > 12 mmHg. Ascites, bleeding varices, hepatic encephalopathy, sepsis, renal failure etc. Which in time will progress to either death or liver transplant.

For photos of the stages of fibrosis and cirrhosis try this link. You can see the fibrosis spreading from some portal areas to completely surrounded lobule boundary (cirrhosis).
http://www.intechopen.com/books/liver-biopsy/can-we-replace-liver-biopsy-with-non-invasive-procedures-

Hector
Helpful - 0
163305 tn?1333668571
In cases of advance cirrhosis biopsies are not recommended.
I've suggested to NH that she have a full hepatic panel as well as ammonia levels checked with her lab.

There also is the chance her situation in the ER was caused from some other cause, unknown to us laypeople.
When it happened to me, there were several things they checked for including a stroke.
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
  Actually, I take that back, above, especially in light of the ER trip. Labs have to be ordered. If a person has cirrhosis and with low platelets, then it is not safe to do a standard biopsy,(with-out proper blood clotting ability) and a special and more complicated method is used.
   The Encephalothopy is one of many many upsetting symptoms. Myheart goes out to all on here, who have experienced this kind of loss of memory/mental function.  To lose control like that must feel terrifying.
   Much respect to Nighthawk, for staying organized, in the face of what just happened, they are very brave <3
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Avatar universal
    It does sound like encephalopathy, OH.
I hope Nighthawk gets it figured out asap, because there are good meds for that, the lactulose~
   But it sounded very dangerous, and a liver biopsy is still the gold standard. If the OP cant afford it, then SSI can be applied for (if it is cirrhosis, more easy, so the old labs should be fished up as well)
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163305 tn?1333668571
I thought that fibrosis was when the liver begins to change form becoming fibrous.
And scarring was cirrhosis.
However while doing a search, it's somewhat confusing as to whether scarring always means cirrhosis or simply fibrosis.

Having had advanced cirrhosis and encephalopathy as well as ascites, I'm concerned that she may indeed have decompensated cirrhosis, one because of the ER incident and the other is the sudden weight gain.

The bottom line is Nighthawk, either did not get a proper diagnosis or can't remember. We can not assume she received good advice from her doctor.

http://hepatitiscnewdrugresearch.com/fibrosis.html

Fibrosis
Fibrosis is an accumulation of fibrous tissue resulting from an imbalance between several types of liver cells. As liver cell structures change, the function of the liver is altered. Fibrosis is common to several chronic liver diseases, as it is a sign of hepatic injury. A diagnosis of fibrosis is usually determined with a liver biopsy or noninvasive tests .

There is a spectrum of liver injury seen. Necrosis indicates that liver cells have been damaged and died. If there is substantial damage one may see scar  tissue forming to replace the dead liver cells. The term for this finding is fibrosis. If there is really a lot of liver damage, these scars may alter the structure of the liver forming nodules. This severe form of fibrosis is called
cirrhosis.

Cirrhosis
When the liver becomes permanently injured and scarred, the condition is called cirrhosis. This chronic (long-term) disease results from slow deterioration of the liver. Damage to the structure of the liver causes the flow of blood to be blocked and slows liver function so that the liver cannot regulate the content of the blood and process nutrients, hormones, drugs, and toxins (harmful substances) as well as it normally would.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
Thank you so much for your post. I certainly will do as you suggested. Liz
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Avatar universal
  Scarring is called Fibrosis, if your biopsy had shown cirrhosis, it would read "Stage 4 cirrhosis", and if you had that, it would have been time to treat.
       Generally, scarring (fibrosis) is seen in Stage 2 (what I had) and Stage 3.
Once you get ahold of your labs, then take note of what your 'platelets" are, this would be in a CBC panel, on your labs.
   Generally, once a person has cirrhosis, the platelets drop alot lower than the normal range. Take a good look at your labs, (I make copies of all of mine, and put in my Hep C Folder) and note what is out of range. Other impotant things are Albumin and Bilirubin.
   Once you know what is out of range, you can ask your Doctor about it, but I also google how to read labs, and also come on here, to ask  the Old-Timers.  Us people with Hep, or who have had Hep, have a vested interest, in knowing these facts...to save our own lives!
  
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163305 tn?1333668571
I'd like to suggest you also post on the cirrhosis forum. Although it is not as active as this one, the people on it are more aware of the effects of cirrhosis.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
Thanks for all of your posts.  I'm making an appointment for an amonia test , and looking into Ascites tomorrow, i'll keep you informed. Thanks for caring. Liz.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
Oh yeah, OrphanedHawk, I do have cirrhosis, scarring right? I was diagnosed back in 2000 and had a biopsy 2003. I don't know what stage I was, I was just told I wasn't ready for treatment yet, and to come back in 5 years.
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Avatar universal
Yes you can get copies of your records, just yesterday I called the hospital and asked for the medical records dept. Told them what I needed, went up there a couple hours later and they was ready. Just had to show an ID and sign a release form, no problem no cost.

You say you have type 2 Diabetes, that seems to be a problem with people with hep c, It doesn't run in my family and I wasn't over weight, my Hepo said it was fairly common with us heppers. Glad you can keep in under control without any med but do keep a close eye on it. Mine seemd to get better then it became a problem again..... Good luck on your journey.
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3060903 tn?1398565123
You know, I feel like an idiot for not asking for lab results from the ER. Does anybody know if I am I able to get them 2+ weeks later? Can my doctor be requesting this info? My doctor is not a good doctor. The only time that I ever get anything done has been to read these posts and ask for specifics in the blood work etc. I was given a date with a Hepatologist for next summer, but found a doctor and a lab (that costs $) to perform the fibroscan. I don't know if they will perform a biopsy. I hope so, because I want one as well as the fibroscan,(after posting here, so thank you again).  and I want it quickly rather than late. Thanks you guys, I know you know how i feel right now.
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Avatar universal
    The stomach symptoms you described sound more like Norro Virus, which is a 24 hour Flu.
    But the mental confusion could easily have been triggered, by the dehydration which would have quickly occured, after you lost so much fluid, from both ends, etc.
    I noticed when my Hep C began progressing (when I hit age 47 yrs, after having it for 20 yrs), I became very easily dehydrated on hot summer days, and would then get mental confusion, as well as other dehydration symptoms such as severe muscle cramps, and my sweat would feel sticky..plus I would feel weak, and have a sore throat.
    Also, Hep C and Diabetes are also seen together, and I noticed my sugar going up, and I had to cut out sugar and white flour, other-wise I would begin to get a bladder infection.
  Good luck with your Bx~
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766573 tn?1365166466
Did they run any type of labs while you were in the emergency room. If so be sure to obtain the copies as there could be more decisive answers on them. If so hopefully your serum Ammonia might be on them. If not be sure to ask your doctor to run a more comprehensive labs - probably sooner than later.  

Here is a link that mentions the causes and symptoms of Hepatic Encephalopathy:
http://www.liverfoundation.org/abouttheliver/info/hepaticencephalopathy/

You are on the right track by having the biopsy & FibroSure as you will have many solid answers soon enough.
________________
Here is a link about Hepatitis C,Type 2 diabetes and Insulin Resistance:
http://www.liverfoundation.org/abouttheliver/info/hepaticencephalopathy/

_________________

I hope you are OK and that you continue to post your condition as well as your results. There are many people on here qualified to help you understand them and put them into perspective. :)


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