mhudnall and Dr Berkson

[Upbeat]

I have waiting to see furter posts on your treatment with Dr Berkson.  How has it been going?  His work with Alpha Lipoic Acid and I believe LDN peeked my interest.   You were giving updated reports on your viral load and alt ast numbers.  Its been awhile and just curious as to where you stand now.

[Bali05]

Three words:

Super,Super,Super !!!

Congrats

Bali05

[GoofyDad]

Sounds to me like going to a gynecologist and asking them to read a brain scan if you ask me.

You're right about that. T'would make more sense to ask what time the train was due to arrive. ;-)

[mhudnall]

Just got my vital load: 2770

Previous high: 7 million

Before LDN: 1.6 million

Before bumping my LDN dose from 3mg to 4.5mg: 300 thousand.

Previous low: three months after beginning LDN - 57 thousand

The increase in LDN dosage is probably responsible for the reduction, although the addition of the Zhang's herbs might well have helped a lot.

[Bali05]

Hi Mike,

Greetings from Berkson land.The weather is great and the ALT is going down!

Met another HepC patient during infusions today. Was dx very late

with ALT in the hundreds , enlarged spleen, ascites ect.....

Has been doing ALA IVs for some time and now has no more ascites and lives

normal life. Said his liver is in fact rebuilding itself.

Will find out more , just got here.

My latest ALT after starting Zhang protocol again 47 from 54, AST 21 from 27 in six

days. Hitting the right direction and since my ALT was 29    4 weeks ago  that is what

I am aiming for.

to Walrus:  I well know LFTs alone are by no means a measure of liver damage.

That`s why we do all the other stuff , Fibroscan,Fibrosure,Ultrasound, CTscan and

other lab tests. A low ALT/AST however and time of infection (how many years) can give

an idea of progression rate.If your liver is so damaged that it can not produce elevated

ALT/AST anymore you will be able to see it on CTscan or ultrasound. The same for HCC.

Another reason to always check AFP from time to time.

[mhudnall]

Bali,

I started with the same herbs as you based on my interpretation of Dr. Zhang's book. But Dr. Zhang changed them to what they are now based on my staging (F3) and the high enzymes.

Walrus - good point about enzymes. They are known to be low in patients with cirrhosis due to the fact that there aren't that many hepatocytes left to be inflamed. Regular labs are important to accurately measure your condition. In my case I do extensive labs every four months or so. A fibrosure five months ago indicated F3 staging (inadequate as the test may be). Platelets, albumin, bilirubin, BUN/Creatine and all other LFTs are well in normal range and have been for quite a while. My problem was that my enzymes had been high, were brought down to near normal when I started LDN, but had been creeping back up over the year, reaching ALT of around 150 five months ago. The only changes that I made were increasing my LDN dosage to 4.5mg and starting Dr. Zhang's herbs. Both of these measures have been known to decrease enzyme levels, and they seem to have worked for me.

I personally do not think that elevated enzymes are as bad as some people think, or that normal enzymes are as beneficial as some think. Fibrosis - activated hepatic stellate cells, secretion/resorption of collagen, HSC myofibroblast formation are independent of inflammation or viral load. For instance, vitamin A can increase enzyme levels, but in animal trials, livers pretreated with vitamin A and exposed to toxicity produces less collagen and fewer activated HSCs than liver not so pretreated, yet the vitamin A pretreated liver has a significantly higher level of AST and ALT liver enzymes after the toxic exposure. In other words, an elevated liver enzyme count can be consistent with the prevention of fibrosis in some cases.

I personally take vitamin A, vitamin D and niacin - all known to increase enzymes. I did not stop taking them because my enzymes were high. However, I am glad that my enzymes are back to normal range nonetheless.

I also know someone on Zhang's herbs and LDN that still have high enzymes. I'm not saying that my program works for everyone. It is nice to know some of the available options, however.

[IAmTheWalrus]

Don't forget that ALT/AST and other enzyme levels tell nothing about liver damage often until the liver actually begins to fail, and then it is often too late for anything but a transplant. So, I hope you are not kidding yourself that just because you are maintaining normal or lowered enzyme levels that this means that your HCV is being cured or even in check. My liver enzymes were still in the upper normal range when I was diagnosed with Stage 4 (cirrhosis) and HCC. I was basically given about 6 months to live. Fortunately for me, I received a transplant. Closer monitoring of actual liver disease progression and treatment could have spared me this dangerous and expensive surgery, not to mention leaving a donor liver available to another recipient whos life could have been saved.

Treating HCV and liver disease is a serious matter not to be influenced by unproven claims and word of mouth testimonials as substitution for medically proven treatments..

[Bali05]

Hey Mike,

Zhang put me on

Hepa Formula #2
Gall #1
Lingustrin
Circulation P

In addition I now also take

Glycyrrhizin +Olive essence


Why are you on Hepa#1 instead of Hepa#2 formula
and also how come you are not taking Lingustrin ?

[desrt]

No problem on the common names. The formulary I have access to gives these as well. I only use the Latin in these posts because people have a tendency to read this stuff and start using the components indiscriminately. Several of the ingredients in what you're taking are in the two formulas I used while on SOC. And you're correct - the people who make this stuff probably wouldn't be happy that I'm giving exact %s on an open forum.

[mhudnall]

The Zhang's Herbs I'm on are:

Hepa Formula No. 1A:
baikul scullcap root
milk thistle seed
schizandra fruit
capillary artemesia (whole plant)
san-qi ginseng root

also Gall Formula No. 1:
Chinese thoroughwax root
capillary artemesia (whole plant)
coin-leaved desmodium (whole plant)
Dandelion (whole plant)
Gardenia fruits
Costus root
tangerine rind (aged and immature)
red-rooted sage root (Salvia)
****-quai root
baikul scullcap root
scabrous gentian herb

also Circulation P:
Safflower flower
peach kernel
****-quai root
cnidium root
raw rehmannia root
Paeonia lactiflora PALL root
achyranthes root
Chinese thoroughwax root
Chinese licorice root
balloon flower root

Also Glycyrrhizin:
Chinese licorice root
Paeonia lactiflora PALL root

Also Cordyceps

Sorry about the common names - the list above is what is on the labels. Also they are listed as proprietary formulas, so the exact dosages of each companent are hidden. All  of the ingredients are extracts.

Zhang gives you a free 15 minute phone consultation if you read his book. He says that 80% of his patients achieve normalized enzymes. After three consecutive labs of normal enzymes he switches you to more anti-fibrotic formulas.

[desrt]

I'm curious about the Fuzheng Huayu formula studied in the first trial cited. If the formulation is expressed in the standard way of TCM formulas (the #s in the right column being % of composition) then only 24% of the formula is there. The remainder of the formula is probably what a TCM practioner would call 'balancing' components (as if your IFN came pre-mixed with neupogen or your riba with epogen).

Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae 8.0
Fermentation Mycelium Powder 4.0
Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis 2.0
Semen Persicae 2.0
Pollen Pini 2.0
Gynostemma Pentaphyllammak 6.0

The Gan C Pian formula I co-txd with on SOC had a couple similarities (same % Salvia Root, three times as much Schisandra Fruit).

Ganoderma Lucidum 9.0
Radix Paeoniae Rubrae 9.0
Radix Astragali Membranacei 8.0
Fructus Lycii 8.0
Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae 8.0
Herba Artemisiae Yinchenhao 8.0
Herba Hedyotidis Difusae 8.0
Radix Bupleuri 8.0
Fructus Gardeniae Jasminoidis 8.0
Tuber Curcumae 8.0
Radix Polgoni Multiflori 7.0
Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis 6.0
Fructus Meliae Toosenden 5.0
(Yeah, I know you're not supposed to mix Bupleurum with IFN. Probably one of the reasons I went a little wacky on tx. But I'm muuuch better now.)

Interestingly, the guy who compounds this stuff predicted that co-txing with this might lessen my side effects. Not the reason I was taking it. More into the 'throw everything including the kitchen sink' approach to tx at the time ('02-'03). Also, since I had an easy to tx genotype and only mild fibrosis after carrying the virus for 30 years, I chose to take the risk of messing up myself and/or my tx. My gastro asked me on more than one occasion if I was taking all my meds since my blood counts stayed so close to normal range.
Did I SVR because of the herbs or in spite of them? Good question.

Also curious about the complete listing for Zhang's formula, if you have that available.

[Bali05]

just four weeks ago I experienced a rapid ALT drop from 56 to 29 as well as AST
from around 30 to 14 .
I first was under the impression it all had to do with the ALA IVs received from
Dr. Berkson. 3 weeks later my ALT is back to 54.
I was also doing Dr. Zhang protocol which I had stopped during Berkson IVs.
I am now taking Dr. Zhang herbs again and if my ALT drops again it will be
proof of their effectiveness in lowering ALT&AST for me as well.

Bali05

[mhudnall]

Sorry,

Forgot to include this study on another different TCM formula:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695921/

[mhudnall]

Thanks everyone for the kind comments. The herbal formulas in Modern Chinese Medicine  are kind of standard in the Chinese system of care. Zhang's herbs contain many of the same herbs listed in the clinical trials listed in the following review:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720970/pdf/1749-8546-4-12.pdf

[tashka]

I am very happy for you. This is a very good improvement.

[evangelin]

Hi Mike,
Very impressive improvement.  Thanks for sharing your update.
Ev

[Bali05]

Mike,

Absolutely FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mhudnall]

When I last posted several months ago my enzymes had been creeping up for about a year. My ALT had gone from near normal when I started LDN to around 150 a year later.

I decided to address this in two ways. I increased my dose of LDN from 3mg to 4.5mg. Also I went on Dr. Zhang's herbs.

My new labs have just come in:

AST 37  (10-50)
ALT 42  (2-60)

My VL has not yet come in. I will post it when it does. On my last labs it was 300 thousand. Everything else on this set of labs was in normal range.

[Bali05]

Forgot to ask you
What role did Dr. Jacobson play in handling your Sx ?
Is that something you have to deal with on your own with your GP
or does Dr. Jacobson prescribe the so called rescue meds ?
I had asked him about starting some kind of antidepressant before
Tx because I hread about it on this forum but he strictly said he
would not do that.
After 72 weeks do you have any permanent damage caused by the
Tx drugs ?

[Bali05]

this why I went to see him
can`t get enough positive information

thanks again

[nygirl7]

Honestly, I cannot think of a man I would trust my life more with when it comes to hep.  Without him chances are I would not be cured today but he was SO far ahead of the rest of the doctors.......there was no comparison.  Because he is the lead investigator in most/many of the trial studies that are done and written into the journals he's got a great advantage.

Hes marvelous.

[Bali05]

That sounds great.
Thanks for sharing this. I might have to go back to him.
He is running the Alinia + SOC trial for geno 1.
It will be very interesting to see if they get similar results
as they did in Egypt for geno 4.

[nygirl7]

Wanted to do new labs right away even though the ones I had with me
were only 1 to 2 months old."

Dr. Jacobson does labs EVERY month as standard practice and this includes PCR. They are very thorough and watch everything closely. One of the things I adored about him. For the record he is the one who got me my extension when it too "experimental" to other doctors to do so.  He was one of the only men with enough juice to get my regular doctor to agree. My doctor was EXTREMELY impressed with him not only be reputation but when Dr. J got himself on the telephone to my doctor during my exam and spoke to him.  

Can't be that in a doctor, who is that caring and compassionate and still be one if not the top doctor in the world.

[Bali05]

Unfortunately I did not get this from Dr. Ira Jacobson.
I had all my labs everything you can possibly have including FiberSure, Ultrasound.
He did a physical as well and basically offered SOC with prior biopsy.
Wanted to do new labs right away even though the ones I had with me
were only 1 to 2 months old. Wanted to do a different VL test , because
it could possibly (not for sure) show a slightly higher VL.
No thanks !
I rather stay with my first test and compare apples to apples for now.
He told me Mt. Sinai hospital had a FibroScan that somebody donated.
So they gave a note written on his notepad prescribing FibroScan.
When I called Mt. Sinai nobody in that hospital ever heard of FibroScan.
Called Radiology Dept. , Nuclear Dept ect..... nobody knew what I was
talking about. I figured if nobody knows about it what are the chances they
no how to operate it ?
I decided to go to Germany instead.

[mhudnall]

Nygirl7 said,

"Not believing in staging fibrosis is another cause for error that makes no sense since every single hep doctor in the world seems to go by that to draw that line and who needs to treat and who does not."

I think that is a very good point, and kind of the crux of the matter. Every doctor that does a biopsy is looking for information to evaluate "treatment options". Treatment options mean, do we treat, or do we not treat. Take the option to treat off the table, as in my case, and no one would order a biopsy. What would they do with the information?  The information is useless to them. What would they change if it was stage 1,2,3 or 4? Treatment is the only bullet in their gun, so without it they are powerless to do anything else. Even noted hepatologists. I seriously don't think any doctor would order a biopsy for for me even if I wanted one. There is a cost, but no benefit.

Mike H