The topic of acidity/alkalinity and Candida overgrowth always results in great confusion. Your body’s typical pH reading should be 7.4 (slightly alkaline), but there are very good reasons why you need to actually make your gut more acidic to kill the Candida yeast. How does this make sense? Well, what one part of your body needs may be completely different from what another part needs. We see this in pH levels – your blood needs to be slightly alkaline, whereas your digestive system needs stomach acids to function correctly.
Maintaining the correct pH in your gut is one of the most important things you can do to reduce your Candida overgrowth. The Candida yeast likes an alkaline environment, which is often brought about by a course of antibiotics or an excessively alkaline diet. One of the aims of the Candida Diet is to restore your gut acidity to the correct levels. The right dietary changes and a course of good probiotics will do just that.
Acidity and alkalinity in your body
You may have read in various places that your body needs to be more alkaline or acidic, but the fact is that this is over-simplifying a very complicated topic. Your body’s average blood pH is generally between 7.35 and 7.45, which is slightly alkaline. However, the various organs in your body require very different pH levels to work efficiently. Your stomach, for example, needs an acidic environment to work properly, so this has the highest acidity in your body (a pH of somewhere between 2 and 4). Your colon requires a slightly acidic environment, i.e. a pH between 5.5 and 7. Even within your blood supply there is variation – blood that has circulated around your stomach has a lower pH than blood in other parts of your body.
There are diets that specifically promote alkalinity in the body. The pH Miracle diet and the Alkaline Diet are just two of these programs. They claim that an alkalizing diet will prevent fatigue, help you lose weight, increase your bone strength and even prevent cancer. However there are very few scientific studies backing up these diets, and increasing your blood pH to 7.45 or above can even be dangerous. This results in a condition known as alkalosis, with symptoms ranging from hand tremors to full muscle spasms. What really matters for Candida sufferers though, is that an alkaline environment in your intestines is exactly what your Candida overgrowth needs.
Why does Candida overgrowth require an alkaline environment?
Candida overgrowth relies on increased alkalinity in your intestines. It needs neutral or alkaline conditions to switch to its fungal form. This is why acid-producing probiotics like acidophilus are so effective at slowing and even reversing the overgrowth, and why caprylic acid is an effective antifungal. Your digestive system has evolved with a naturally acidic environment that protects us against pathogens like Candida, so when you begin your Candida treatment plan you need to maintain that acidity.
Candida not only prefer an alkaline (or less acidic) environment; it actually acts to further reduce the acidity of your intestines. One of Candida’s byproducts is ammonia, an alkaline gas that forms when the Candida Albicans yeast ferments sugar in your intestine. Ammonia increases the alkalinity of your digestive tract, and has even been found to promote the growth of other yeasts. A 2011 study (see here) found that “under acidic conditions, this species can raise the pH from 4 to greater than 7 in less than 12 hours”. The same study showed that by alkalizing its environment, Candida triggers a switch to its pathogenic, hyphal form, which is the form that causes Leaky Gut Syndrome.
The acidic environment in your stomach and intestines is hugely important – its your first line of defense against pathogens that enter your digestive system. A 2001 study (click here to read) found that “both capric and lauric acids are active in killing Candida Albicans and may therefore be useful for treatment of infections caused by that pathogen”. Additionally, one of the most popular and effective antifungals for Candida overgrowth is actually caprylic acid. Studies have shown that coconut oil, which contains caprylic acid and lauric acid, is another effective antifungal.
This leads us on to another very important part of your Candida treatment: probiotics. One of the reasons that probiotics are so effective in treating Candida is that they produce small amounts of lactic and acetic acid. This helps to rebalance the pH in your intestine and restore the acidity that is needed to curb the Candida overgrowth. In fact one of the most common reasons that a Candida overgrowth happens is that a course of antibiotics has killed the acid-producing bacteria in your stomach, thus making the environment too alkaline and allowing the Candida to thrive.
How does your gut become too alkaline?
There are a number of reason for your gut becoming too alkaline. Perhaps the major cause of Candida overgrowth is antibiotics, which are sadly over-prescribed these days. When the antibiotics kill the good bacteria in your gut, they’re not just reducing competition for the Candida yeast. They’re actually also destroying one of your sources of stomach acid. These friendly bacteria produce small amounts of lactic acid and acetic acid that help to maintain your stomach acidity. When they are killed by the antibiotics, your gut becomes less acidic, more alkaline, and a perfect environment for Candida to grow and take over your gut.
Diet can be another contributory factor. Most fruits are very alkaline, so eating too much of these is one route to excess alkalinity in the stomach. There is another reason to be careful with your fruit intake of course – fruits contain large amounts of sugar that feed your Candida overgrowth.
There is one more reason for your reduced gut acidity that’s not the result of your diet or anything else that you’ve done. Its a fact that stomach acidity actually declines with age, so as we get older we become more susceptible to Candida overgrowth. One study showed that stomach acid secretion slowed from almost 180 mg/hr in 11-20 year-olds, all the way down to 50 mg/hr in 61-70 year-olds. That’s a drop of almost 70%.
How can you restore your gut acidity?
One of the most obvious things you can do to maintain your gut acidity is only take antibiotics if you absolutely have to. Of course there are times when you do need antibiotics – they can often be life-saving – but make sure that your doctor is not over-prescribing and don’t be afraid to get a second opinion. If you do need to go on a course of antibiotics, taking probiotic supplements at the same time will help you maintain the balance of your gut flora and prevent your stomach from becoming too alkaline.
In fact taking probiotics is one of the best ways to restore your normal gut acidity. The ‘good’ bacteria in probiotics secrete small quantities of lactic acid and acetic acid, which help to get the pH in your stomach and intestines down to normal levels.
There are vitamins that can help maintain a balanced gut pH too. Vitamin C is otherwise known as ascorbic acid, and is also an excellent supplement for boosting your adrenal glands and immune system. You can take vitamin C in quite large quantities and its a very useful complement to a Candida treatment plan. Vitamin B (or more specifically B6 and B12) helps with the production of hydrochloric acid in the gut. A general B-complex vitamin will do the job.
Diet is an incredibly important part of any Candida treatment plan, and you should make probiotic foods like kefir and yogurt a part of your daily routine. The good bacteria found in these probiotic foods secrete lactic acid and acetic acid into your gut, increasing the acidity. If you’re worried about the bacteria making it through your digestive system, don’t be – a 2006 study (click here to read) found that the live bacteria in yogurt do indeed make it all the way through!
Lastly, there are a few things you need to avoid. We’ve already mentioned antibiotics, but you should also steer clear off things like antacids and acid blockers. Anything that reduces your gut acidity can help the Candida yeast to flourish. If you’re taking alkaline waters it is also recommended that you stop until you have beaten your Candida overgrowth.
For a more comprehensive look at how pH affects Candida overgrowth, take a look at my Ultimate Candida Diet treatment plan.
Agree with you there ribeyes, this is not really a disease on our part because we are not dying from this. If the whole world were not allergic to us, whatever we have, we wouldn’t care because we aren’t getting sick. Unfortunately, the whole world is on the other side and we are the minority. If only one person was allergic to us, of course I wouldn’t care. …let him cough & choke to death for all I care.
Funny thing, there are a few people who are allergic to almost everyone else, they are taken special care of and have to spend most their time indoors in a special room. The rest of the world can enjoy themselves without knowing these minorities exist. These minorities have to hide themselves and the rest of the world can walk freely and enjoy themselves. Certainly there is nothing wrong with the whole world just because these minorities are getting sick. On our part, it’s the opposite, they are getting sick but we are driven into isolation. And it’s all because we are the minority. Regrettably we have to adjust to what the majority dictates. How sad for us. Sometimes it feels unfair but that’s how it is for us patmers!
Doesn’t it sometimes make ya want walk out there and say to the world,cough your throat out and get sick and die as I don’t care coz its your problem and not mine!!! Lol…
I’ve actually tried that many times out of frustration, the problem it doesn’t work for long…
Yes, tommottommot8 I believe you. I'm monitoring ray2505 's progress. If his condition sustains then it would mean that we have to take blood test as our individual cases may be unique.
Probably we are unique in each individual case. Look at grateful2011, she's the only one that cures PATM with vegediet. Others have no effect or lessen patm only. Here's what Dr. Saraf said
"At allergy clinic we take pride in providing individualized care. I understand frustration of patients who are suffering from symptom similar to you, however I think all of them have been lumped in one single group despite having varied presentation Every patient has unique history and presentation and that sometime help in providing appropriate care for them. I can not discuss legally about any particular case but as for yourvquestion about vaccines and immunity, bacterial toxins and super toxins has been implicated in allergies"
If you read about the two bacteria strains which ray2505 got his vaccine for, it’s funny on how and when they are implemented on test experiment which makes a big difference in how they work.
We could be immune-deficient to a number of different strains on individual cases. I guess only an IgG blood test can tell.
Btw, someone took the 13 serotype; I’d be interested to know the outcome of that since that’s the exact vaccine that was taken despite the problem he/she took other vaccines as well within the same period.
I finally today received a dose of Prevenar 13 (PCV13), the same type ray2502 took initially, now I will wait for the outcome, can't wait to see positive changes in the coming weeks (hopefully). Will keep you guys posted off course. I did not take any blood tests prior to this vaccine and do intend to take the hib/menC vaccine in 4-5 weeks time then followed by PPV23 4 weeks after the hib/menC shot.
When finding a place to get these vaccines I did have to pursued some of them to give me them as they do not give PCV13 and hib/menC to adults, only infants. none of the places had given an adult (I am 30 years old) these vaccines before and did not particulary understand why I am getting them. However because I have to take them privately (paying a clinic out of my own pocket) they agreed to give it. This first vaccine cost a lot and so is the next one, but I'm willing to do this to possibly get my life back.
I've been following this site off & on for a couple of years trying to come to terms with how to deal with this condition, which doctors say doesn't exist. As with most others I've had times where things have improved only to have the condition return. I'm grateful that people are sharing their recent trials and successes. The one thing I'm having difficulty giving up is coffee, but I think it is a trigger. Anyone have similar experience?
StayStrongForever – thanks for doing that. I know it cost you some money but at least someone is picking up on ray2505’s path. If it works for you then there’s a high possibility that it should work for others too.
Please don’t eat any junk food as I have done. I believe eating sugar/dairy food products will ruin the outcome.
The second vaccine shot hasn’t been taken by anyone except ray2505 so I’d be curious when you do.
As for me, I’m trying hard to find a way to convince my doctor to do a IgG blood test on me.
One possiblity of your trigger with coffee is that you perceive people having more reactions to you but in reality its because coffee has a strong smell and your breath is carried out further along with patm when you speak. That's the answer that I received from my allergist....Hope this helps....
Honestly, I wasn’t keeping track of what was going on. I use to think that ray2505 took only the igG test. From looking at this medical report, it looks like he took an immunoglobulin test, which is for all of the five subclasses of antibodies.
I think this is the way to go. It will capture all deficiency. Immunoglobulin A (IgA), which is found in high concentrations in the mucous membranes, particularly those lining the respiratory passages and gastrointestinal tract, as well as in saliva and tears. I am curious to know my IgA level.
So I’m optimistic about all it. This is where I’m heading. I have a feeling we are slightly different, meaning we may be immunity deficient to different variants so ray2505 was right… we should have taken the “immunoglobulin blood test” first.
If this doesn’t work then it might lead to a conclusion that perhaps, viruses, germs and candida is most likely not even in the equation. However, ray2505’s results prove that at least microbial entities are involved regardless whether his experiences will last or not. This is because, patm responding to vaccination implicates that there is some form of pathogenic condition associated.
Dr Saraf must have studied so many cases to be aware of these details. I’m looking around within my area to find an allergist. Haven’t found one yet… there is a national body of some kind but it’s too far from where I am.
If eventually Dr Saraf finds a permanent solution that works for everybody… I’m just gonna fly over and get it over with. For the meantime, I’m going to work on getting an Immunoglobulin Blood test.
Anybody knows the usually fee for taking such tests? Is it expensive?
after reading so much about immunity problems... it scares me. It could be any of them. Meaning... there's some related to genetics and chronic too. Sometimes it won't show up until something triggers it...
Thanks, Ray, and thank you for sharing your recovery. I'm seeing my internist Monday, and will ask him to do the IgG blood test. I've never spoken to him about PATM, so wish me luck. I'll share the results, if he consents to do the testing. If not, I'll explore other routes. Fortunately I'm off for the summer and have more free time for appointments. Thanks to all who have been sharing their results. I'm more hopeful that a solution is possible.
Don’t try to interpret people’s feeling by just looking at their faces. It looks like you are new to patm. Ask the people with the disgust looks! You have to build the guts to be bold and ask. Your doctor/GP won’t like to you…ask him! If you have breath that smells like ****, your doctor/GP will tell you exactly that. Start asking questions and connecting the dots. There are diseases where patient’s breath stinks and medical professionals have no problem telling their patients that. It against their oath to lie.
Doctors have used instruments to test for breath/body odor and tried on some of you…look up the forum posts in the past and still nothing, coz there is nothing! Some of these instruments are so accurate that they can tell concentration level that probably dogs will find it hard to detect, and still find nothing. Are you going to tell doctors that their instruments are wrong and they don’t know their own noses but you know theirs better? No one can smell you… you can’t even smell yourself… but what ground do you keep on referring to the invisible odor?
On the other hand, BB (halitosis), doctors don’t even ask patients. Doctors don’t do test to verify coz it’s obvious. Their friends will tell them, no need to ask. Doctors even say something like, “their breath smells like faeces because …”, no cares about how they feel. If it’s the truth they’ll say it. Did you think anyone out there care about how we feel that they’ll refuse to tell us.
Here’s an experiment, don’t brush your teeth for a week and get out there and socialize. You’ll see, people will say it in front of your face. And if you go and see the doctor, he’ll try to help you, no question asked. Some will even tease you about it.
Regarding patm, yes they do look at you in a strange manner because you make them sick. If you ask them, they normal say you are hot, they can’t breathe, and cause them to feel nauseate or really sick in a way. They need air, is what they usually say. Good option, a family member or a very close friend will tell you this.
I had a doctor who gave me that evil glare and I asked him the same thing and he described the very same thing I describe above. Sometimes they don’t even recognise their own somehow evil looking expression.
You have to try and ask, not just one person. Try as many as you can. If you don’t try to do so, you’ll continue with that false belief for another decade or so and will ruin your life. You will continue to have “Odor Reference Syndrome” as they refer to this non-existing condition. Why do you think ORS was diagnosed for patients like you? It’s because they couldn’t detect with their own nose what you are insisting for them to do so.
Btw, if you’re breath stinks, or have body odor. That has nothing to do with patm and it’s a different coexisting problem. But a simply advice, take a show or brush your teeth probably. Once you get over it, patm will still exist because it’s a different problem.
I have never had BB or body odor so I never worry about it.
They look at you with disgust or maybe its with a look of confusion. Why? Because people do not understand and what they don't understand they are usually afraid of. It's human nature. All they know is that when their around you their allergies start to flare up or cough, sneeze but it's not because you smell. Hope this helps.....
guys i have been dealing with this issue as well,my family keeps sneezing, clearing their throats. i really dont know if theres an odor or not because i cant smell anything i asked my family and they dont smell anything. i have tried everything to get rid of this curse. i was diagnose with GERD, H pilory.and i have really bad post nasal dripping. it lead me to think that the post nasal dripping was the culprit. but after trying everything to stopped it, i was able to, but no positive results came with this. i still made ppl around me grabbed their nose sneeze like crazy and cough as well. im sure this issue is a gut related and with everything that ray2502 had bring to this group i now know its a bacterial or a fungus infection. i would like to take the vaccine but im going to try something else first. if this bacteria is feeding of sugars,junk food, mucus etc. im willing to fast and see if i can starve and hopefully kill the culprit. in my many research for a cure i came across with a book that change my life. its called the mucusless diet and healing system. u guys should give it a read. google it and u guys can download it for free. it has lots of great info about illness and what causes them. i will start my fast next monday i will keep u guys on the loop. and PLEASE PLEASE. dont give up we will find a way out of this. i stayed up last nite reading all about this forum i recently found it. great job guys. keep the positivity. peace and love XOXOXO
Ikarigera – your idea is good. However, this is something you might want to know prior. I was on a strict diet before for something entirely different. And when I mean diet, I mean it left me with skin and bone afterwards. PATM was had nothing to do with it so was never in my mind.
But the rewarding thing is that I noticed patm disappeared after several weeks into the diet. The diet had no exclusion of anything. Dairy, gluten and sugar where among them.
The bad side is as soon as I got out of the program, patm returned. Because such rigorous diet can never be practical in a normal condition as its painful makes it a very hard way of trying to tackle patm.
Hope you succeed in your trial though, after all I didn’t eliminate anything from my diet during that time, perhaps you might find success with the extra restriction.
@Ikarigera – I’ve taken a quick peek at the author’s background. I was surprised… he passed away in 1922. Modern science has changed dramatically ever since. For example this guy didn’t know what white blood cells were. The cell theory is one of the fundamentals of modern biology, without it, people would be talking trash about life itself.
Plus, this guy had no degree in medicine even though he was brilliant in other areas in science (Design) which has nothing to do with biology. In his own area of design, he would have some difficulty understanding undergrad materials of today because science has been revolutionized so much. Design students nowadays would probably be jobless without understanding how to use computers. In contrast, the most powerful super-computer in his days, which he had no access to, is dwarfed by todays cheapest portable calculator.
We all studied fundamental science in high-school which included cellular components and the DNA itself. In his time, the DNA had NOT been discovered… even the smartest people in his time had some general idea of what the cell looks like… had no idea how it function.
The bacteria and fungus that have been discussed every now and then in the forum, are mostly unicellular organisms. They are cells! What’s happening in the gut or respiratory track are cellular processes. One cannot talk about cellular processes if he doesn’t know what cells are in the first place, which are first introduced in Grade 8 in high-school.
I don’t want to freak you out but I think it’s important to always look up some background information about an article, book etc and the authors themselves. Remember that anybody can create any kind of convincing information, especially to average people, but their background will always reveal some sort of reflection into their claims. If modern doctors can’t explain PATM then it would be very very difficult for people who don’t understand elementary cell theory to come close.
Good side!... it doesn’t necessary mean his education is inadequate would simply disqualify his claim. It might just work even if his explanation or true understanding does not coincide. In fact, I have a feeling his methodology is very similar to what grateful2011 has been advocating all along.
If that’s the case then yes, it has worked for some. Perhaps adding the element of starvation etc might just be the last bit to try. Good luck!
I think you may be on the right track with this, my patm started about last year. It all started from after taking a PPI (stomach acid suppressor), I had this cough and went to a walk in clinic. The doc said it could be acid reflux or post nasal drip b/c I had history of reflux she gave me PPI. My cough did go away but after that I noticed signs of patm however at this time I didn't think I was causing people to react. It seem to come and go then near Xmas I really noticed it and discovered it was from me. This makes sense cuz I was eating lots of sweet foods and eating out a lot plus I had pizza like every weekend. Which maybe why it got to be too much for my body to handle ie. fighting against the bacteria or fungi ( yeast). I told my doc this, I even said I might have SIBO b/c of the PPI I took but they just do nothing. Which really ticks me off!! Whatever this is I am not going to give up on finding the answer and cure!!!
I also noticed before I got patm, my neck and back use to hurt really bad. I though it was my pillow which I changed out but was still having the same issues I even put a pillow btwn my legs for back support and relief eventually my neck and back pain went away. I notice whenever some people react to me their neck and shoulder start hurting and they become tired and stressed. I wonder if I had something going on at that time and was experiencing the symptoms of patm but eventually it stopped effecting me and started to effect others (externally).
Also I am going to try to convince my doc to let me do a number of blood tests. Can you guys list the many blood tests that you've had done but came back normal ie. celiac test, hpylori, tsh, urine tests, etc. I want to make sure I do tests that others haven't done however I will try to get the same test that ray2502 did.
jn4357 - yes, that is the best approach. Blood test are probably the best option of revealing anything abnormal. The only thing is most of us don't know what are the possible blood/urine test to take. There could be hundreds - I don't even know it.
Hope someone with a biology degree or at least an undergrad can shed some light on this. Otherwise we'll just have to do some reading and research.
I was just reading on the different bacteria/fungi etc that could infect us in many ways and are resistant to most drugs... its just scary. There are also autoimmune problem that are even harder to detect and sometimes show up as something else and then disappear until something triggers it.
but I think a blood test is probably the easier way to narrow it down... that is if the experts know what to look for.
My Infectious Disease doctor (yes, I went to one several times when this started) cultured-out my blood for bacteria and fungus (the blood test that takes a while to complete because the organisms have to grow on the test plate) and NOTHING. If blood-borne, the pathogen is very well hidden. That is what makes me think it is some kind of "obligate" organism that hides within other/host cells (behave like a mycoplasm).
So, I do not place much confidence in traditional blood tests (also, if it were that easy to discover, it would have been discovered by now). What I do trust is PCR testing, the type that identifies pathogens by their DNA composition and matches them to a database of pathogens. Unfortunately, I do not know of any for blood, I had it done for stool but the lab, Metametrix, does not have all pathogens in their database. For example, proteus was missing in the list of pathogens, and all the mycoplasmas (there are more missing, as well, like the bacterias that cause meningitis, etc.).
I also had hydrogen peroxide administered intravenously, but only did it a couple of times because it was expensive (over $100 each time)...the doctor said I would have had to have done it at least a dozen times to see if it would help, but I don't have that kind of money to waste if it doesn't. I think in theory it would, since hydrogen peroxide helps the body produce it's own type of chorine to kill invaders. It sounds awful but I always wish somebody really rich would get this so they could try everything and get all the expensive PCR tests for every known thing...
also, my neck and shoulders, and hip joints hurt sometimes too and I also think it is related to the pathogen that causes the patm, like some sort of inflammatory or immune-system response (like rhuematoid arthritis)
I saw a doctor a few days ago for a physical. He didn't believe me about PATM which is of course frustrating, but he seemed willing to try to help. He gave me an order for a number of blood tests (i dont know what they are and dont have paper with me) which i will get filled this week at the hospital I work at. I also didn't push to get the prevnar-13 vaccine despite showing him my lab results for the pnuemonia (pneumonia) serotypes. But I will when I see him again pending the rest of the blood tests.
I do however, feel like I am eliciting fewer reactions since switching to a new shampoo from head and shoulders (keracare shampoo and conditioner) Its a lot more effective and I notice a lot less dry skin and dandruff. I've been eating a lot of junk recently as well and even despite that I still feel that I am getting fewer coughs from others. I still get reactions tho, just not as many or as severe.
So I was thinking maybe its something we secrete from our bodies into our skin, which people then inhale when we are near them. Kind of like the Fel d 1 allergen that cats secrete into their skin and then people inhale and get allergies.
I also feel like whatever is on these skin cells dies after a period of time because I dont think people have reactions in rooms that I have been in when I'm not present in them.
I also hurt my back playing football by the way around the time of getting PATM. it has bothered me ever since. It would be a weird connection but thought i should mention that.
one of the blood tests Im interested in getting back is my vitamin D levels. It was one of the things Ray was treated for when his PATM dissappeared, and I feel like I may have a similar diffieciency since I have worked in a windowless room for like 5 years, and have been working nights as of recently so i dont get much sunlight. as well as probably having a poor diet. It would also explain the bone problems I have had the bast few years as there is a correlation between bone strength and vitamin d.
sorry. thats enough rambling for now :)
one more thing. my physician mentioned that an important allergist (in his field) is visiting the practice in spetember and there may also be tests we can do to prove scientifically that people are allergic to something about me (breath, skin, etc) so that sounded really promising.
guys question. i have read some of u have post nasal dripping. do u know the cause? i have a deviated septum i got in a fight when i was younger and my septum was split in 2,only 1 of my nostrils work. also have u guys notice insects follow u or seem to be atraccted to u? thanks in advance :D
Whether it has something to do or not with PATM, here my short story:
I used to have Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis, but this was years before patm. I was using medicine: methotrexate (chemotherapy drug, i heard later..) and sometimes strong anti-pain medicine. After every few months i reduced the methotrexate gradually and kept doing so if it was going well. But what helped the most was a summer vacation to a sunny (vitamin D) country (no sunblock off course). Without any pain my juvenile rheumatoid arthritis disappeared within weeks while on vacation and stayed like that without medication. Never have had any RA problems since. I do take vitamin D3 gel caps (+ magnesium) now though when not getting much sunlight. The doctor said the first day that with juvenile RA you can grow over it or overgrow it. Something like that. Which is what happened i guess.
By the way i did not have bad breath (so no my patm was not bad breath)
Hello, I am new to this forum and I have been having PATM like symptoms for over 2 years now. Recently, I have gone to see an ENT (ear, nose & throat) doctor about breathing problem while sleeping. I usually breathe through my mouth while sleeping.
After the doctor checked my nose he said that I have a deviated septum, I am wondering if this could be the culprit for my PATM symptoms.
Omega333, do you know the person username that has become PATM free from the surgery for deviated septum? I have a few questions that I would like to ask this person.
I dont think the pv23 shot did anything for me. However, I've been noticing less reactions this week. I've been taking high amounts of chlorella and have been using the gse nasal spray at least twice a day. Also, ive been sleeping on my left side and sometimes my back since I fractured a rib on my right side. I feel like that possibly has something to do with it since I get a lot of reactions in the mornings. I'll continue to sleep on my left side/back and will keep u guys posted. At this point, I'm willing to try anything even if it sounds dumb lol
The reason why I am asking about chronic pain is because from the numerous researches I have done, I have come to the conclusion that PATM is caused by CENTRAL SENSITIZATION. Central sensitization is a condition of the nervous system that is associated with the development and maintenance of chronic pain. When central sensitization occurs, the nervous system goes through a process called “wind-up” and gets regulated in a persistent state of high reactivity.
This results in excessive firing of nerve cells resulting in electric signals being generated. Hence PATM usually starts after an episode of chronic pain. The pain could be obvious or subtle. You might associate the pain as being normal when it is not.
I still don't understand how the generated electric signals from nerve cells are released by the body into the surroundings. But the reactions we get from people are due to electric signals due to nerves being fired excessively. Hence people will itch their noses, ears and cough when we are around them.
From the responses I have received, every one of us had an episode of chronic pain. I am not sure if deviated septum causes pain. But can the sufferer confirm whether they had an episode of chronic pain too.
Diet and supplements will mostly result in placebo. So please research more about central sensitization and how excessive firing of nerves results in electric signal generations. Mind you this concept is purely medically and scientifically based.
It was good to cure PATM.
I worry about many of surrounding people doing a cough and a sneeze for ten years or more.
In the interior of a room in which I am present, many people become PATM condition.
In my case, it is pointed out about my smell.
Although I think that I have emitted a smell like gas, what kind of thing do you think was emitted before?
Moreover, is it atopic dermatitis?
Not me. I don't suffer from any of those. It is purportedly nonpatmers who suffer as part of their allergic reaction. The toxins causes muscle spasms etc on others. If we were all suffering like non-patmers this would have been identified by some expert way way back.
Its the lack of clear signs so far within us that makes it hard to identify.
I don't remember his name anymore. I'm sure someone else here does.
When i went to a ENT he said everything looks normal except that i have dust mite allergy causing my breathing through nose problems (swelling blood vessels).
I however did find a post from someone else. I QUOTE blackfairy:
" guys just check your noses trills. people usaully caugh when people nose whistle . this is something normal. it is really hard to be detected by our selves. our brain is adapted to nose whistling. you can only identify that you are whistling only if you concentrate on your breathing alot. even i was going crazy. i went to neurologists psychologists and everyone . and finally one of my friends told me that whistling is the reason. when you whistle its kind of an very powerfull frequency. eg: when i whistle through my nose, the person next to me might feel like his whistling, but its actually me. this is becouse we all breath at the same rate. as i told you before most of you people have some sort of respiratory disorder which might have lead to a enlarged turbinate in the nose or even can be due to a deviated septum. i took medications for my deviated deviated septum and turbinates. and now i dont get the PATM symtoms (symptoms) (symptoms) anymore . only if i blow my nose or get a common cold or something .
people always clear there throats .. clear there breathing passage. nose etc. so they can breath well.
just see if you can breath with your nose well. try closing one nosestrill and breathing with the other .. THANK YOU. HOPE MY EXPERIANCE WILL HELP YOU PEOPLE . NOSE IS THE PROBLEM .. CHECK WITH AN ENT. DONT PANIC .. WE ALL ARE HUMANS .. SO FACE IT . THIS IS JUST SOMETHING NORMAL WHICH ALL THE HUMANS IN THIS WORLD HAS GONE THROUGH. "
What if this persistent state of high reactivity is making things seems so bad for the PATMer but not for others which is also why others disprove patm.
" Sensitization has been implied as a causal or maintaining mechanism in a wide range of apparently unrelated pathologies including substance abuse and dependence, allergies, asthma, and some medically unexplained syndromes such as fibromyalgia and multiple chemical sensitivity. Sensitization has also been suggested in relation to psychological disorders such as post-traumatic stress disorder, panic anxiety and mood disorders. "
From a quick read about i think that: "...repetition of a painful stimulus may make one more responsive to a loud noise." applies to me, and i don't mean patm symptoms but in general.
Those symptoms do not cause any hindrance to my daily activities, I know us PATMers don't suffer from any life threatening diseases.
Any way from the responses I currently receive, you are the only one with no history of chronic pain. Also I doubt that PATM can just appear like that with no history of physical or mental stress. So can you please detail out how your PATM came about? I strongly believe it is associated with the nervous system.
I don't mean that we suffer from allergic reactions due to our PATM.
I am trying to find out common symptoms that we PATMers may all share in order to pin point the cause. That is why I am asking for history of chronic pain or bowel disturbances such as IBS D or C.
Because I currently believe it is due to a dysfunction in our nervous system. But that is my own perspective.
" a mouth ago i have an operation in my nose,doctor cut a big rhinopolyp which can increase the nasal secretion in my nose, the nasal secretion may cause bacteria infection, after operation i used nasal spray drug to antibacteria, and my PATM symptom disappeared,people around me became normal.i should clear some dirty things from my nose everyday or PATM re-emerged,so i think PATM is a diease relate to nose ,the bacterias are the initial point. "
The best option for you right now is to not eat anything that has artificial sugar. Try to go on a gluten free diet. I know it can get quite expensive but you will see immediate results. I would go to your allergist and find out what type of foods you're allegic to and immediatley stop consuming them cause there probably making your sinuses flare up which in turn intensifies your patm condition. You might want to ask your doctor to check your IGg levels cause mine came back low which means I was'nt able to fight off bacteria living inside of me. Your situation might be different but its worth a try. God bless you....
I think the pathogen does attack nerves...aside from musco-skeletal (joint) pain, I'm pretty sure it's infected my optic nerve...I used to think the lights would flicker, but then I figured out it was ME, not the lights, I get a very fast blackening-out of vision, so fast it makes it seem like the lights are flickering, this has got to be the optic nerve
I do not mean athritis per se..What I mean is any chronic pain conditions such as back pain, shoulder pain, tension headaches, mayofascial pain, IBS etc.
Because all this pain conditions involve central sensitization of the nervous system.
I have been told by several medical professionals that I have a deviated septum. I got it in 2007 and totally forgot about it. Last year I saw an ENT doctor and he told me I have a slightly deviated nasal septum but theres nothing to worry about. Also I met another ENT doctor recently and he told me the same, that I have a deviated septum but there is nothing to worry about and should not need corrective measures. I think he said boxers usually get deviated septum, I got mine from being assaulted.
All this talk about deviated septum has got me thinking, do I need to get it corrected? would it help with this patm? I think approximately I started noticing the usual patm symptoms in 2009, so just couple years after I got a deviated septum.
When looking into my nostrils i can see the difference between my left and right nostril, i can physically see the 'deviated' part. my left side is deviated.
I do not suffer from any unusual pain. I do sometimes get aches and pains but it's due to me either working out or running. (Ex: knee pain after running long distances or shoulder pain after lifting weights. ...due to not warming up/stretching.)
I’ve gone through the forum and it’s in contrast to your statement. Few people reported chronic pain. When I got it, I was actually having a holiday and it ended badly coz I had to go home.
Evidence for pathogens? You’re right on that part… we haven’t concluded on anything yet. But gratelful2011 great experiences is evidence. Ray2505 evidence is evidence. They both point to pathogenic origin. Interestingly, if I take overdose probiotics, I’ll get sick but patm symptoms dwindles.
There are plenty of posts in the past where patmers report taking strong antibiotics and patm would disappear or lessen within a couple of hours/days before getting worse again. I have experienced the same thing with Hydrogen peroxide. Only pathogens respond to those drugs and behave as expected.
It could be fungus/bacteria/virus etc. and there are plenty of those around the world that don’t respond to any kind of medicine and just because you’ve take some antibiotics and doesn’t work doesn’t mean it can ruled out.
It could also be some other condition triggered by pathogenic contamination. But we cannot at this stage rule out pathogen, in fact it is the strongest hypothesis we have according to what we observed so far.
Regarding the back pain, shoulder pain, tension headaches, mayofascial pain etc you mentioned. That’s exactly what others are suffering from, not patmers. If we all did, the patm problem will be over. why? Because doctors need something to narrow down on.. and so far there hasn’t been any signs of a problem except the blood test of a few.
If all had back pain, then doctors will start diagnosing why they occur… and they will trace it to its source.
By the way, that is what we are looking for, at least a single common factor among us. Chronic pain is not one of them. Perhaps some do but most don’t.
We’ll find it. We just need all the patients in the world.
"pathogens" is a general term, it encompasses all possible "bad" invaders: bacteria, fungal, viral, parasitical, etc....it is not specific to bacteria...since we don't know what kind of invader it is, I use the general term "pathogens"
By the way, bacteria/fungus and especially viruses are only found when looked for. So if there’s an existing harmless bacterium in the body, chances are, no one is going to find it. Why? The only reason why people look for flu or HIV viruses is because they kill people. If they didn’t look for them, many of these strains would have been unknown.
Why would doctors want to look for patm pathogens in the first place? They don’t even believe there is such a problem so why would they.
The only hope we have, if they exist, that they belong to an already existent pathogen list that has been found.
Living with PATM has to be one of life's greatest curse. Is not easy especially when you don't know the cause. I want to start doing my master's program in september, but I am scared ********. I have already been accepted into the program. But can you imagine going into a classroom daily with PATM.
I am currently working but have minimal contact with people, just a few close associates. What do you guys think? should i proceed with my master's?
Again, do you guys know of anyone that has tried low dose antidepressants for PATM?
I am new to the forum. Suffering from PATM for about 1 year.
It started last Summer but it went away...It came back a few weeks ago. Stronger.
Anywhere I go people suddently display the following symptoms
(In decreasing order of frequency)
2) clear their throats (a-hem,a-hem)
4) rub their noses,
5) sniff to deal with sudden runny nose,
6) scratch their heads.
Indoors is more marked but also happens outdoors (e.g. people walking behind me in the street). I used to have bad breath but the bb either has gone away or morphed into PATM as I no longer get bad breath type reactions but instead these allergic reactions that people don't associate with me as the culprit. But I'm 100% sure it is me. I've done experiments. It's only when I am there it happens. It is more serious when I talk to people face to face but it also happens if I am just there not talking to anyone. Also it is just statistically impossible to get that kind of spatial distribution of reactions. For example, in a quiet waiting room or conference with, say, 200 people, it is always only the 4 or 5 next to me that react. Not others.
Some of my symptom are similar to those others have posted before.
1) It seems to get worse when I am anxious, stressed, scared or sweating.
2) I also have nasal septum issues, perforated septum in my case.
3) Insects, particularly mosquitoes and flies seem to be attracted to me. They are interested in my scalp and nose.
4) I also have issues with static electricity: get electric shocks quite often, and hotel room keys demagnetize very easily while on my pocket
It has got to be something that we breath out, even if we are not talking. Otherwise it's got to be something that comes out through our skin pores.
Here is something funny to do, observe when people are sleeping where ever you are. Also, if you're away from those people for at least about two weeks, ask them to observe one another when sleeping during your absence.
Here's the prediction. They'll snore and almost choke sometimes in their sleep when you're around. If you're away from them for about a week or two., they'll enjoy their bedtime without choking at night..lol.
Do it and see for yourself. Why it happens? That's the one million dollar question?
I also have IBS. The second line of treatment for it is low dose tricyclic antidepressants. I was diagnosed with H pylori infection 3 years back and I am sure it led to my IBS. Do you know that pathogens such as H Pylori can cause inflammation to the gut lining triggering nerve changes in the gut. This nerve changes leads to visceral hypersensitivity which is a biomarker of IBS.
Visceral Hypersensitivity and IBS all lead to central sensitization. I agree that for some of us, infections with Pathogens started our PATM but other mechanisms are responsible for the actual PATM symptoms seen in our victims. That is not the pathogens directly but changes they made in our body (my assumption is the changes made to our CNS and PNS).
You do have a point there. Have you talked to your doctor about IBS? Funny thing, I was researching about H pylori a few days ago since I've noticed the similarities between IBS, crohns etc. I was just wondering if PATM was related in a way... which is why I posted that there are chronic conditions that seems to be triggered by other things and never seems to go away.
I was trying very hard to find a link to patm but couldn't.
Its too early for me to make a conclusion but its a good route for research.
Good reasoning there mola123.
As for for pain, I myself is the opposite. I don't have any painful symptoms as others have reported, rather I see other people experiencing muscle spasm i.e. neck, back muscle, sometimes arms.. and the other symptoms I just posted.. they snore during sleep but with choking sounds....
Most people if you tell them about their snoring/choking sound during sleep at your presence will laugh at you.
An easy way to prove is to record when he sleeps. Leave for a week or two and let him record whether he continues to snore like when you were around. Recorders nowadays can go for days!
By the way, I've observed this without recording and have confirmed many times with family members and other women I’ve been with. Of course they never believe it has anything to do with me but the prediction is always as I have said. They snore or should I say choke during sleep because often times I'd turn a girlfriend sideway to give her relief. If I visit a family member, the same thing, you can hear them snoring across the hall.
I visited a cousin and, btw, he is super fit and healthy… he was snoring so loud his wife came out and slept in lounge room. I asked her if my cousin snored like that often. She said it’s the first time for her to observe him snoring since thy got married in years. I asked my cousin the next morning and he said the same thing. He blamed it on the weather. I was glad I left his house as they were starting to cough very badly especially the wife & kids. Very sad!
I guess it’s just hard for them to believe something so weird. I wouldn't either if I were in their shoes.
Don’t tell your doctor coz they won’t believe it. It’s something I want to hold on to because one day someone will find this out and will look back through documents and see how obvious the symptoms were, yet, we were told otherwise.
By the way, ray2505 is going to see his doctor tomorrow I think and will be taking his next vaccination and more blood tests. Hope something nice comes out of that.
Ray2502, when you did your allergy test were you also allergic to dust mite?
I have a theory, I have also seen an allergist recently and yes I told him about my patm, he told what every doc has told me, there's no such thing... We'll anyways I did the allergy prick test and found out I was allergic to dust mites, which explains my own otitis and dry stuffy nose. So my theory is maybe it's dust mites but only mutated or mites that are bacteria infected, kind of like what someone said about demodex mites and candida. So to my theory mites love humidity, which they draw water from the air this may explain why the air becomes so dry around you causing others to cough and pick their noses. Also mites are light as air and so are easily dispersed especially in rooms with air flow like air cond. or wind or when we walk by someone making them airborne. Plus I think I've read something about demodex and staphylococcus. Finally dust mites almost Always trigger allergic reactions ie. sneezing, runny nose, and more severe respiratory issues ie. coughing or wheezing. What do you guys think???? I feel like this is somehow connected.
dfoe, thank you for the warm welcome. Indeed, after my PATM returned a few weeks ago I googled and came across this forum. spent the last couple of weeks going through the 7000 posts (that's how I identified common issues 1 through 4 above) and today decided to sign up and make my first post. Hope to connect with fellow palmers like lkarigera who share my symptoms.
You doubt I'm new ? If I remind you of someone please let me know as I would like to connect with people with my same symptoms. I have appointments coming up with allergist and ENT Any suggestions on what tests to ask when meeting the two specialists?
I'v been a member of this group around 5 yrs.Yes i'v been through it all.. Stop working for around 3yrs. been to every doctor you can name.EVEN TO CDC, done it all. Believe me when I say it all,even removing all the mercury fillings in my mouth, ENT AND ON. My doctors diagnosed me as being Delusional. Yes that's on my medical records. So I started going to group therapy, just my luck nothing was happening. So after 5 yrs of isolating myself I decide to go back to work. OMG!! everyone started getting sick. One of the instructor of my training class sent everyone home. one of the instructor said he was sick last night. and I ask him what did he do . he said it was a virus and he let it pass.. so as soon as I left class i call my doctor and ask her to refill my antiviral meds, I never use bc I never have outbreaks from the herpes I contact it 26yrs ago. So once I pick up my perception it inst me to take 4 pills a day which i'v never done before. when I tell you the next day of training it was like a miracle....... 4 pills A DAY of Acyclovir for 5 days. No reaction that whole day!!! I cried all the way home. I conclude for myself the virus was over loading my system. Even know I never had any outbreaks and never taken the meds.I thought I didn't need them. what do i know? I'm not a doctor.. anyway my life is back!!!!!!!! So I take my acyclovir daily now. AND doing THE master detox! great product for everything we are dealing with ..a must have http://healthstore.familyhealthnews.com/BURN-CLEAN-SPECIAL-Total-Oxygen-Cleanse-Run-Clean/productinfo/8800/ for the whole system $99 PKG, let them know Jane sent you. I finally have my life back.its been a nightmare but I AM finally back. Thank you all for you help..I could not have made it with out you guys. My two best friends I met here, we talk often within the 5yrs of dealing with this. you guys gave me Hope to hold on . Praying for this day , feeling normal again. I LOVE YOU!
Can anyone with access to an oxygen mask try using it and see if you still get reactions? If you don't get reactions, that would confirm it is something we are breathing out through our nose and / or mouth as opposed to something coming out through our skin pores, sweat, etc.
hey ray2502 I wanna ask you did you have a smell with your condition. Maybe you couldn't smell yourself but maybe someone told you or you maybe suspected a smell? Also was your condition progresive meaning did your condition get worse over time. the reason I ask is because I just got this p.a.t.m thing like 5 months ago where people are actually coughing and sneezing around me sometimes clearing their throat and spitting. But before that I didn't have that but what I did have was people sniffing around me like they smelled something around me and I actually got told a couple times that I smelled by some mean people. That condition also was progressive it went from bad to worst now this patm thing. I would appreciate it if you would respond thank you
Thank you for sharing your success story. Good to hear. However, please monitor yourself for the next few days. Many people have claimed healing only to find it come back again. I've had that experience with other antibiotics.
So I hope yours is the permanent one. Good luck!
Let us know of you progress. Those of you who have access to the drug itself and wish to try, please go ahead and let us know of your progress.
hey staystrong, did the Prevnar 13 improve your symptoms at all? It appears the Pneumovax 23 vaccine didn't work for a lot of people, was hoping the prevnar 13 would help. That's a bummer if it didn't work.
As for the other comments regarding chronic pain and deviated symptom, I don't have either. I'm pretty healthy outside of the PATM issues, which makes this even more frustrating. I don't ever get sick. The last time I was sick was over 6-7 years ago. I agree with most of you guys that this is some type of respiratory issue. Some type of gas were exhaling that may be caused by some type of latent bacteria or fungus that we are harboring in our noses, mouth, and the rest of our respiratory system. Trying to stay positive, but this is just so depressing.
No unfortunately the Prevnar 13 did not work, theres has been no difference at all, it has only been 10 days but I don't see any hope it working to kill patm in the next few weeks. I'm thinking should I even bother getting the hiB/menC vaccine in a few weeks?
GOD please help me/us, this is just too much,….when will we get the solution?
jane says she has success with Acyclovir from using it for a day, but after you stop having it (after 5 days of usage), patm will probably come back worse then normalise back to normal levels. you can't take this medicine everyday for the rest of your life. other people including myself have had sucesss for few days using certain antibiotics but obviously can't take them forever. there must be a common ingredient/substance in all these medicine that attack the patm, wonder what it is? and what it is attacking to stop patm temporarily?
The smell that you are producing is the by-product of the bacteria that is living inside you. This bacteria thrives on sugar and dairy products among other things. I know for a fact that wearing a mask that covers your mouth does keep people from having patm reactions because I have done that in the past. Stop eating anything sugar/dairy if you can and you will see much improvement.
Think about this scenario, the night before you eat a bowel of cereal or a slice of cake. You wake up the next morning and what do you have bad breathe and then imagine having patm, you've just tripled the smell intensity coming from your mouth.
You have to be proactive when it comes to patm and also have discipline which will help you in controlling it to a certain point.
@mola123 – As @Girlaghast has said, patm is the reverse of what you’ve described. Its others who experience those symptoms. In fact, those are the patm symptoms observed on others.
@Girlaghast - Yeah, there are always side effects but at this level I think anyone is willing to try it.
I have a feeling it’s going to be just like any other. It doesn't kill viruses as viruses can't be killed by any chemicals other than our own immunity but does aid the recovery of the body for the specified viral infection. If abused, it will have no effect afterwards. But we all hope it will help jane44 permanently.
@grateful2011 - thanks for the info, but I think you know that many have tried and still on it for years with no substantial effect. For myself, I take dangerously overdoses just to lower it for the next day only to come back the following day. It’s a temporary relief but I notice some side effects from doing so. Do you still do your sauna? Perhaps the combination might have helped you. It seems your method hasn't healed anyone else other than yourself since it’s been years since you posted this. I guess you are the lucky one. God bless you.
@StayStrongForever – I think you are right!
@All – It’s clear that even though we’ve thrown PATM everything we have, it only responds so far to antiviral/antibacterial/antifungal drugs, but temporally.
@grateful2011 – uses a diet and suppliments that is supposedly minimized fungus.
@ray2505 – used a vaccines that attachs bacteria
@ jane44 – uses some form of drug commonly used for treating herpes virus infections.
@All – Just be patient everyone as ray2505 is stil ongoing with his progress and jane44 is still patm free. Let see how she responds in the upcoming weeks. I hope @jane44 that you won’t eat junk as we have during your meds period as it might change the outcome.
1.We are at a point where doctors couldn't help us.
2.We need to figure out the cause for PATM, then treating PATM could be way easier.
3.So we need scientists to do research for us. I know there are a lot of bio-chemical labs or institutes are looking for funding, if we have money and make PATM a research project, there is a possibility to find the root cause.
4.When the root cause found, there should at least be ways to reduce the PATM symptoms.
Good though tomottommot8, many have brought it up in the past years but it's hard getting a consensus.
I have asked ray2505 to ask his doctor just as an option if it comes to that. Its just good to know if there is such an option for us if he accepts. We'll have to do fund raising but honestly I'm not so keen with the idea.
Many here are willing to go with patm to their grave than to lift a finger to help themselves because many think its going to be discovered tomorrow. Even though ray2505 hasn't said it, I believe ray2505 thought the same when he was still a young man. He's had it for 40 yrs.
Brush your teeth properly. Use mouth very strong wash. When you do that your bad breath will go away. Btw, BB has nothing to do with PATM.
PATM will still exist afterwards if you happen to have them both.
But if your problem ceases to exist after brushing your teeth properly then your complication was just that, nobody taught you how to brush your teeth properly or often forget to use the toothpaste. You should celebrate and continue to follow the halitosis forum instead; it’s an easier problem than patm. In most cases halitosis is just a lack of oral hygiene but sometimes due to other conditions like diabetes, tmau etc. If its caused by diabetes etc, there is no way around it but carry around your toothpaste as you would a pen.
Follow the halitosis forum, they know how to help you with all kind of smelly mouth problem.
guys im 100% sure the cause of this is. post nasal dripping . investigate everything around it and u will find that post nasal dripping gives u GERD.and can also gives u really bad smelly gas. i know for a fact that post nasal dripping causes this. im going to get my septum fix. im sure this will end this curse. do this little experiment. spit all the dripping that u will normally swallow. spit it in a lil cup and leave it there for a minute or so then smell it? tell me what u smell? mine smells so bad like something died..
You genuinely have bad breath. It's an easy problem to take care off. I can't believe there are so many in this forum with bad breath.
Go read some of my posts months ago. I have helped numerous friends with bad breath.
The more science you know the better it is. Once you understand why it happens, BB is over.
I have friends who suffered from it for years and they can't believe how easy it is to get over it.
I have PATM but some of my friend had really really BB... now they don't but I still have my PATM. It took years for them to associate their allergic symptoms with my presence. Some still don't believe saying they cough because of the AC or weather.. there's tons of reason for others to blame it on.
My guess is you'll cure your BB but if you also have PATM, it will still be there for you afterwards.
Yes I think what you are doing is great, I am trying my best to eat healthy and heal the body like you but sometimes I break it for whatever reason, I will get there soon and hopefully be disciplined as you, this is a lifestyle change so its a bit tough but 100% possible like you have showed us. Thank you for reminding and encouraging/supporting people on this forum with your messages from time to time, even thou you are patm free.
Hi dfoe43 I believe you might be right about me having bad breath. I don't however think that that is the root or cause of this patm thing but am not sure. I think I will try to take that off my list and see if it helps. you say you know how to control it or illiminate it? Please send me more info.
Hi ray2502 About the bad breath I just answered dfoe and I think you guys are right about bad breath. I do seem to have unusually bad breath but that in itself does not seem normal you know? Also I don't believe its the only smell comming out of me because while I cant regularly smell my self I do however get certain smells sometimes and its not bad breath but I have not been able to pinpoint them, so I believe that I may have more than one health problem which makes pinpointing the source through self experiment and self awareness that much harder. I believe there is something wrong with my nose cuz i cannot smell that great( maybe infection up there or something else blocking it) so that makes it worst. It could all be related however I don't know.
I do believe that you may have something with the bacteria hypothesis. I think that this is what it is. I think there is a sweat component as well because when I start to sweat my patm kicks up, but after sweating for a while like on a hot day however and then I go in to a airconditioned room the reactions diminish almost like I sweat alot of the chemicals or bacteria out and for a while it diminishes untill it builds up again. I don't know if humans sweat out bacteria do you know? I also think that when I drink alcohol it makes it worst not sure why but thats just what I noticed.
You did not answer my second question if your condition was progressive? or do you even remember?
Hi mola123 yes I do but then again I always have most of my life I believe its a week stomach or IBS but never been diagnosed or even been to the dr for it. When I first started getting these simptoms though I thought it was parasites so I went to the dr and he ordered a stool sample but he also said that their was certain types of bacterias that cause those simptoms 2 so he orderd a certain blood test although I don't thin it was as extensive as the one ray2502 got because my results came back with in like 15 minutes and he said that I had a high level of a certain gut bacteria in the blood. Thats why I believe that ray2502 my have something with his claim.The stool sample came back fine. Anyway he prescribed me antibiotics for a little over 2 weeks. I never actually finished the whole treatment though because after about a week and a half I started geting bad side affects from the antibiotics like stomach pains and really bad diarhea (diarrhea). I wish I would have though. I also never have gone back to see if my bacteria level went down or back up because at the time my main problem was people sniffing around me like I smelled bad or something so I decided I could sort of deal with that as uncomfortable as it was I would just take more showers change clothes often and avoid public places. Now however, about 5 months ago i started getting these patm symptoms where people cough around me all the time and now I see people sneezing around me 2. I tought people sniffing around me was bad but this is unbearable a person can live like this you cannot be yourself. You cant stick up for yourself. if you get in to an argument with somebody that you know the first thing theyll bring up is the patm thing. So you sort of just have to be introverted stay out of the way and hope nobody messes with you. Its hell. My family wasn't much help either. When you get something like this you find out just how selfish and how animal-like we humans really are you know? Not that good wishes and kisses you see on facebook and the like. First off nobody believes you, they say if your sick why don't you see a dr as if it were that easy. Oh hi dr I ******* stink o and now people cough and sneeze around me too what is it huh? Please.
If they do sort of believe you then they say its not really their problem its just your bad luck. My mother actually told me that I was such a smart guy why couldn't I figure it out on my own then she said i would have to get a long like that smelly and all just push along. I was 28 when I started getting these symptoms and even though I understand that I am a man now I would of been nice to receive more support from my parents and family cuz I believe this is like a dissability. I mean your limited to what type of jobs you get or even try to get. For women it must be worst because i can work outside in landscaping or construction but for women who have to always take care of their children and usually get jobs indoors it must be that much worst. Anyway I digress just me venting sorry but yeah I believe thats where it all starts the stomach.
In researching acyclovir after reading Jane's post, I see that one of the uses for the drug is to treat chickenpox. I've suffered from patm for many years, and have not ever had chickenpox. I was wondering if anyone else in the same boat? Just throwing it out there to find potential commonality.
Also, weirdly when I first get a cold or flu and my nose is runny, I've noticed that I get significantly less patm reactions. Does this happen to anyone else?
hey, is anyone from the NYC area? Anyone willing to talk through skype or instant messaging like whatsapp. It would be nice to actually have a back and forth conversation with somebody dealing with this. The forum is nice, but it's just posts and it's not the most efficient way to communicate with people responding to posts several days after the fact. Send me a message if you are interested in talking
I feel your pain Bro.PATM is such a curse. It kills all the ambition you had and your potentials are left unfulfilled. But we must keep striving to find the solution to it. Your medical history is very similar to mind. I also had digestive issues as far back as I can remember.
Just keep on researching cures for IBS. We shall surely succeed.
I commend you for having a strong willpower to follow such an extremely difficult diet.
My advice is to also figure out where your body went wrong and try to find a permanent solution instead of relying on diet alone. I believe there is a disorder in the body that led to PATM.
More power to you.
So I guess here is what I will do for my rest of life :
1. Making money first. Survive and Fight!
2. Contact research lab and institute and kick off the PATM project.
I hold a advanced degree in Science and Engineering, and I did know some labs and professors in biochemical area. It may takes $50-100K(that's how much it takes to kick off a project in my department, of course it depends on what project you want to do) to start the project, then it may takes more funding depends on how it goes.
3.After the project has been kicked off, I think it is a good time to do fund-raising, because there is a ongoing project there, you put in money, you get results.
I don't know how long it takes me to get the initial funding for this project, but at least I will try my best and let you guys know when I arrived that point.
I do know there is a chance that PATMer's children may get PATM, so I am also fighting for my children.
I've had constant post nasal drip that began shortly after the PATM began. I'm pretty sure it began a little after I began noticing the PATM issues, so I'm not sure if the post nasal drip is the cause, but it certainly doesn't help. It makes sense since the air we exhale traveling from our lungs will pass over all that nasty mucus in the back of our throats that could be the cause of the odor/gas that is causing PATM reactions. Unfortunately, I've used antihistamines and nasal washes that haven't helped with the PND or the PATM reactions.
Yes my patm symptoms were progressive. It got so bad that I could not be in the same room with other people without them hacking and choking. That's about the time I found out about this forum. I immediately followed a strict diet and reduced my patm reactions. Hope this helps you.
Yeah, it happens. It is expected. From a biological point of view, the only way this could happen is when you have a competitor against the patm pathogen itself within the body.
If you take excessive probiotics like I do, (I don't recomend coz its dangerous), you'll find that you'll have a slight fever and possible ear, throat infection as it diffuses into the bloodstream, but patm will cease to a minimal.
As I have said before, the best explanation to something like that is that the variants of probiotics is competing with the patm strains, resulting in minizing patm stains effective progress. Remember that the probiotics when taken in excessively will end up in the bloodstream and that is why there possible infections and fever.
Its a common thing, at least to me, what you're observing.
But please everyone, don't get yourself sick for that purpose, its dangerous. I myself use probiotics to induce the same effect but I know its not a good solution. It doesn't matter where the bacteria is, in the stomach, etc. once you introduce a competitor, it's going to hinder the existing bacteria's ability to compete for resources.
Way back I mentioned, that trying to contact the show 20/20 (an American show) might be something we should try. It is an investigative reporting show and they have one sub-category show called "my strange afflictions". These are people with unordinary health problems even some where doctors have told them they were crazy, however the show investigates these rare health problems by having specialists figure out if it is a real issue . And these are specialists that are very highly trained and knowledgable. I think that we should contact the show by writing a letter. It can't be one person, otherwise they won't take it seriously however if we can get at least 7-10 people we might have a chance. We would each write to them and hopefully they will want to contact us. We would tell them about this online community of people suffering from patm etc. it's worth trying . The only downside is they will probably document us and want to do interviews. What do u guys think, we're obviously all desperate to get our lives back on track.
Yes I think your right. I have tought about going back to the clinic that tested me and asking them for my file but its in another state and it was about 2 years ago. Do you think I can call them up and they would still have my info? it was a pretty busy and simple clinic. I also plan to go and check my self again, but more in depth this time sort of like ray2502 did as soon as I can get all my ducks in a row. Its not easy with patm as you probably know am always wondering will I have a job tomorrow? should I pay the rent or go to the dr? should I buy food or go to the dr? can I put if off another week? am sure you know what its like.
I did and I'm getting now another one, when the doctor opened my tooth, there was an awful smell.. Anyways maybe this is due to an infection in our root canal that is continuously poisons our liver/ kidneys etc..
I had a root canal operation 4 months ago, but I didn't experience what you did. My breath is as sweat as honey.
You need very strong mouth wash and proper training how to take care of your oral hygiene. Look up on the internet; you're not alone in that problem. There are plenty of people who are above their 30's and still don't know how to brush their teeth properly. Here's a hint... if you brush your teeth thoroughly and use the best mouthwash in the world but eat chocolate later, within 10 mins... your mouth will be as foul as your anus... why. Because we all have bacteria in/at the back of our mouth/throat/sinus and they repopulate our mouth once the condition is met – food.
The bad smell is the nitrogenous molecules released as a by-product of the bacteria feeding off the leftover food content in our mouth. Without bacteria, there are no nitrogenous substances by-products. The problem is the bacteria are always there. When we clean our mouth, we are only cleaning certain area, some area is unreachable… throat etc.
Btw, there is a simply way to test for BB at any time. Read the previous posts on how to do this.
The tongue is like the Andes Mountains. It’s filled with thousands of projections that resemble mountains and rivers. Once you eat something, between the villi like projection, they are like valleys, they become filled with food/milk... gurgling with water doesn't help. It can only be done with a toothbrush and toothpaste. Those valleys of milk will soon be filled with bacteria multiplying into the millions within minutes.
Doctors/GPs checking for odour, normally checks for these nitrogenous compounds but in the parts per millions - too small for even dogs to detect. That's why its nuts to think that doctors are wrong when they tell that you don't have Bad Breath and some still insist that they know their doctor's nose better – better than the instruments themselves.
As for you "Mr_Feelbetter", I believe you do have BB from the sound of it, which is different from patm. You need to get rid of BB first.
Simple hints are
1. Eat your food in the morning before brushing your teeth.
2. When brushing your teeth, brush the tongue thoroughly, back-to-front, sideways, diagonal, cover every inch of the tongue, make sure the brush reaches to the very back of the tongue – as far as you can go.
3. I brush my teeth by apply toothpaste 3 times. I clean my mouth and reapply toothpaste again and continue. It will give you the cleanest mouth on earth.(won't help patm though)
4. Brush your teeth after every meal... (Lunch, dinner). This means you brush your teeth before bed.
When you understand all that and more, that's when BB is history for you. Good luck.
@jn4357 - I’m not enthusiastic about the 20/20 idea because the crazy ideas brought up in this forum won’t have a chance. In the academic world, some of the ideas brought up here are conceived too crazy to be even considered. BB & Odor is one of them. Other words the 20/20 show will be our final humiliation.
There are more crazy ideas than good ones in this forum. Meaning medical professionals will judge us by the many nutty ideas and will refuse to help us. There are more average people than academic personnel so there will always be more crazy ideas than sound ones. PATM is a tricky problem to diffuse and that makes it worse.
@jn4357 – Because of the differences in opinion and the high possibility of being considered mad before they even begin, I think the best way is to have many videos show actual patm reaction in progress. One patmer taking video recordings of another in a restaurant, shopping, church, school etc.
That’s the only convincing part to anyone regardless. And those should ready to be duplicated when demanded. Without it, I don’t think there’ll be any success and the opposite is expected.
Hello....just got back from the allergist. Dr . Flanagan seems to be very genuinely interested in our problem but we need to be more proactive and email/call them. I believe only 1 person has made contact with them. If we want help we have to work in numbers and show them that we are serious. Please call them (Dr. Saraf, Dr. Michael Flanagan) and explain your patm situation to them. They have been discussing patm amongst them selves so they are very interested.
That's very encouraging Ray2502. I will call him Monday. I did have an appointment with my internist and spoke to him about my PATM symptoms and he seemed to be genuinely interested in trying to help. Ironically, he began to have reactions himself. I also told him about your results, and he referred me to an allergist, who I am seeing next week. You, and Defoe43, are right to encourage people to speak up and seek a solution to this problem. I will pass on whatever results I get.
Just curious do you also have it? and do you think that what you said is possible. I have a real badly rotten moler in the my mouth and just havent hat the possibility to remove it. I have had it like that for a long time tough and patm only for about 5 months. Before that people just sort of sniffed around me thats all like I smelled bad. This could be an explanation though if little by little my worsening theeth is giving me patm all of a sudden. I wish I could ask people that react around me what they smell or what they reacted 2 but am just 2 emberrased to ask anyone.
Sorry to hear about your situation, try to sort that out first and make sure you have a roof over your head. Calling the clinic is a good idea and shouldn't cost you anything. Find out how you can get the results and/or if they are able to mail it out to you. You'll you and we can do is try. I've been trying every day to figure this out. It's one thing for people to be allergic to you and it's another when you are able to effect someone far away but still within the space vicinity ( that's what makes this so crazy and weird).
I totally get that, that's why I don't let my docs know about this forum for those same reasons, but we can try. What's the worst that can happen...they might not help us. Humiliation isn't that bad especially when you compare it to living with patm.. We'll anyways I trieed.
Hopefully ray2502 and the allergists will figure it out. this is what we needed someone to have an open mind where they will take the time to help us and hopefully find the answer to this plaguing thing. And in the end we get "cured" and they get recognition for the discovery.
Hey guys I have been reading this forum for over a year, my first post though. I'm a 23 y.o. male and started getting all the PATM reactions about 2 years ago. There's a couple key events, maybe you guys experience something similar:
I don't notice a smell around me now, but around when it first started there was an awful fecal odour from my butt. Around this time i also noticed I had a small "blister" on my anus, which i assume was haemorrhoids. Haemorrhoids have been mentioned on here before as a potential cause - i remember reading that the anus can't properly close because of the bumps, and gas/feces leaks out. I recently had a flare up of haemorrhoids again. Anyone else have issues with haemorrhoids?
Also just before the time i started to experience PATM there was a huge water leak that soaked the carpet beneath my bed. I no longer live in that house, but wondering if mold from that incident might be around still, maybe in my clothes (clothes were on the floor too) and in my mattress. Has anyone tried to buy completely new bed and bedding? There is a heavy smell, not too strong or offensive, coming from my room and i kind of suspect my bed is the source. I bought new pillows as mine were soaked yellow with sweat, and i immediately noticed that i had way less dandruff/flakes. Maybe a whole bed would do the equivalent for my body.
I have been eating Greek yogourt daily for the past 2.5 weeks, and i actually notice a little change for the better - my friends who got the stuffiest around me don't have quite as bad reactions.
TL;DR - Anybody relate with haemorrhoids, mold exposure (bed, clothes)? I'm really glad this forum is so active, it is such a relief not to be alone.
@oldmanarmy - Hemorrhoids has nothing to do with PATM. 2 years is a really short time so I understand why you're frustrated. There are medicines to cure that... its mostly antibiotics.
Its a common disease where I come from and they cure it with a traditional medicine... I assume its a very strong traditional antibiotics... tastes bad! Hemorrhoids patients don't even smell by the way!!!! Some of my friends only tell me they have hemorrhoids but I have no way of telling other than the way they walk or meal selection.There is no smell!
The anus is painful as hell and you'd walk like a duck. Little lumps sticks out of your anus. Some patients can't even walk. So if you have that, find your way to the doctor coz its a curable disease. Hemorrhoids is caused by pathogens... usually happens by living a filthy lifestyle.
If you do have patm, then forget about the smell (ORS)... you'll come around in more than a decade to understand that.
I think some people in this forum also have a hygiene problem, they don't shower too often or just don't know how to scrub themselves properly. Also some don't know how to brush their teeth. They sometimes confuse patm with personal stinkiness caused by unhygienic lifestyle.
If you do those things properly then there's no other explanation for your problem other than ORS, a mental disorder.
@All - Please if you happen to have ORS disorder, please don't call Dr Saraf, he might just ignore us altogether. I have communicated with Dr Saraf before and he only recognizes allergic reaction. I fear that if any of you people with the ORS mental disorder mention to him this nonexistence odor, he'd ignore us for good. And he'd be right for doing so coz a nonexistence odor equals dementia. No doctors around the world has recognized odor for any patm patient so its about time for ORS mental patients to get over it.
@eckiuME23 - Looks like you just got a bad tooth and have very poor oral hygiene. Just take care of it and you'll be OK. I had a root canal around late Feb... my teeth were clean but one of the tooth was aching with no sign of decay. The doctor said that the mouth wash I was using must have damaged the nerves and caused the pain.. only method was to drill and kill the nerve and seal it back up.
My guess is, you eat a lot of sweets, also, you probably missed brushing your teeth too often. That will result in a very foul mouth and tooth decay will follow. Your friends are right for complaining. But patm won't go away once you change your lifestyle, I can assure you that!
There are people here who have suffered for decades and they live a very hygienic lifestyle but patm still exist. That's because patm is about allergic reaction not odor. When you get over your bad breath and live a hygiene lifestyle, have the guts to ask your friends when they cough and sniff. Better ask your doctor. I know what they'll say but you need to know too.
When the doctor opened up the tooth with a drill.. I could smell the inflammation.. it is rotten, then he "fixed" it and I have to come back in a month.. And after that I didn't smell the tooth.
BUT the infection is back after one week, even though he "fixed" it.. How do I know? well there is a swollen lump in my gum which came back again.. and my nose begins to smell/ irritate again too.
Do your own ******* research, having a tooth canal treatment creates a place where dangerous bacteria can hide and eventually these bacteria make your body sick. these bacteria can lead to different kind of problems like leaky gut and different bacteria strains. This "root canal treatment exist since 1930 and is not really approved by many people when you look on the internet! Many people say this "root canal treatment" leads to many diseases which affects the body organs with toxins as main problem...
I DONT SMELL OUT OF MY MOUTH AND I **** EVERY MONTH A NEW GIRL, MY LIFE IS GREAT EXCEPT THIS PATM..
"I think some people in this forum also have a hygiene problem, they don't shower too often or just don't know how to scrub themselves properly. Also some don't know how to brush their teeth. They sometimes confuse patm with personal stinkiness caused by unhygienic lifestyle. :
You sound like a ******* dentist and should **** off and realise that tis root canal treatment is designed to earn money from people with making them sick.. You don't answers questions on this forum you just talk around them.. Your not belonging here..
I think some people in this forum also have a hygiene problem, they don't shower too often or just don't know how to scrub themselves properly. Also some don't know how to brush their teeth. They sometimes confuse patm with personal stinkiness caused by unhygienic lifestyle.
If you do those things properly then there's no other explanation for your problem other than ORS, a mental disorder.
Hi I've been here off an on for years. I have had long periods without PATM. It started when I was about 13 (as a fecal body odor) and now I'm 28 (no more fecal smell, but PATM started around 22). When I am relaxed it lessens. When I am happy or focused it completely goes away. Stress also makes me crave unhealthy food. My tongue gets white, my breath starts to smell, I fall into depression and heightened anxiety, feelings of worthlessness.
One thing that is significant is that I notice a connection with the nose. I have a bump on my nose, possibly a deviated septum. My nose always feels stuffy and my head feels pressurized. Sometimes when I feel completely relaxed, my nose clears up and I can breathe so well, it feels like it relieves pressure from my entire head/brain. I don't know if that pressure in my head is causing PATM, or if the PATM is causing me to have the allergic reaction of a stuffed nose/pressured head.
Is there anyone who would like to connect and talk with me more one on one about this? I am asking because I feel the need for connection and support. I called a suicide hotline last week. I would like to push forward, I have been very strong but I'm no superwoman.
Please....dolly12.....nothing is worth taking your life for. Your still very young and a lot to look forward to. We are all in this together and we will overcome it. I know how you feel I've had this crap for over 40 years and the only thing that has helped me thru the years from going insane is God.
@Mr_Feelbetter – Go and cool off and get your head straight. Remember cyberspace can’t hear your screams. I skipped through your comments because reading your writing is like trying to understand a little wining kid with diapers.
You said your breath is awfully stinky right? So what are you upset about?
Yes, you do have ORS. It’s a mental illness. Here you go, spend some time to read it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_reference_syndrome
.. you’ll see how it explains your behaviour correctly. Look into the mirror. You are among the many that make our progress harder than it is.
Why do you think doctors just don’t want to listen to patmers regardless what we do? It’s because earlier patients in the past have reported this as BB or a Body Odor problem and medical professionals just refused to help but referred them to psychiatrists. Psychiatrist therefore labelled it as ORS, a mental disorder. It’s because of idiots like you!
I see you really hate dentists! Did they tell you off when you mentioned you had a stinky breath that makes people allergic? Whatever your problem is, take it up with him or better… don’t go to the dentist, do it yourself with pliers since they spent years in college but you know better.
Here’s the truth about root canal since I can tell you know very little about it. It’s done only when there is no other way around it and infection reaches the nerve ending on the tooth.
Usually doctors will fill up a decayed tooth but if the patient is reluctant to keep his/her teeth clean, infection will reach the nerve endings and there’s no other way to deal with it other than a root canal. If it’s not done, the only other option is to pull out the tooth.
The reason why your tooth hurts is because bacteria has gotten into the tooth before it was sealed.
The first fill they did is a antibiotic compound to kill all the bacteria. You are supposed to avoiding eating with that tooth until your second appointment in the following week where they ask you if you feel any pain.
If there isn’t any, then they drill out the antibiotic compound and fill it up with a permanent compound content, including the nerve end holes (3-4 of them)… it’s supposed to stay there for life.
Your best option now is to redo it all over again as soon as possible or have it pulled out. The infection can get worse, the entire array of nerby teeth and bone can get infected too.
Bacteria that gets into your tooth is bacteria from the mouth, that is why the dentist used a piece of protecting leather like cloth to seal off saliva from the tooth during operation.
So you can see it has nothing to do with infecting your mouth, stomach and gut. Rather it’s the other way round.
Yes, please Contact them and better if your allergist calls them or email's them. My wife had an appointment with Dr. Flanagan while I waited in the lobby, he called me in and started to ask me questions about PATM and it looks like he had been studying my case because every time I asked a question he would refer back to my case like he new e everything that I had told Dr. Saraf.
They want to help and if you can get your doctor to call them it would show that these are not isolated incidents and that this could be an epidemic. People cannot function normally with PATM constantly getting in the way. We deserve to be heard and this has gone far to long. It doesn't matter whether it's in the gut, respiratory system or blood what matters is that we get the true professionals that understand this sort of stuff so we can find a cure otherwise we will spend another 5, 10, or 15 years or more writing back and forth thinking we know what's wrong with us. Please have your doctor call or email so we can get this snow ball rolling.
I'm at about a 2 on a scale of 1 thru 10. I'm just worried that this beast might rear it's ugly head. To answer your question, no I'm not 100% cured but I'm much better off than before.
What we do have is doctor's that want to help and understand that this needs further research. They might or might not hold the answer but they would know who to contact because this is their job, it's what they do.
Good point Ray2502, they may not hold the answer directly but may lead us to those that do.
Having this problem for so long, at this stage I'm more interested why it happens... or what could have caused something like this. Of course we have something in common that allows for patm to exist.
Finding that common relationship has proven to be illusive and there's is no way we can do it by ourselves because of our lack of knowledge for the required area that deals with such things.
Today, I was at class and patm just minimized to almost nonexistence. I'm still tracking my progress. I don't like when I'm unsure about things.
I hope @jane44 progress is always improving although I have a feeling its going to end up like everything that we've tried so far - a temporary relief.
@jane44 - if you feel it has returned then its alright but please let us know, otherwise there'll be patmers out there hunting for the specified antiviral you mentioned and get disappointed with their results later. Good luck!
yes I thought about hemorroids (hemorrhoids) being the problem at first, but like I said before, my symptoms were progressive. Where at first it started out with people just sniffing at me and I also thought it could be hemorroids (hemorrhoids). As my symptoms started getting worst I gave that conclusion up though in my case, from what ive noticed. Don't get me wrong the problem might still be down there but for me I don't think so mainly because at first I would shower and I would be ok for like 2,3, or even 4 hours before people began sniffing at me, then things got worst and it would only be like 20 to 30 minutes after then it started happening even right after I showered. I would go to like a restaurant or something and people would still sniff at me, right after the shower. So I doubt it was hemorroids (hemorrhoids) for me because if it was once you clean thouroughly down there you should be good for a while and that just wasnt the case. Try it see what happens to you . I come to the conclusion that it can only be certain things. its got to be something that reaches far becaue when I started getting these patm symptomes about 5 months ago i noticed that I get reactions up 40 to 50 feet away on a windy day sometimes. I do realiaze that that may be somebody coughing for a totally diferent reason and my mind just atributing it to patm but it happens all the time and I know am not crazy. It has to be either someting in the mouth or respiratory system or the nose where you exhale. or something in your sweat where the wind takes it. It could also be something like tmau the fish smelly syndrom (syndrome) where your always followed by a bad smelling gas or even leaky gut which causes similar symptoms. it could also be in our clothes or our hair. I have not been able to rule the clothes thing out because I just don't have enough money to buy a new wardrobe, but little by little am buying little packes of shirts here, underware their, socks, etc to where someday pretty soon am goin to see if its the clothes. One thing I noticed though is that when wear a new shirt, like a company shirt I get alot less reactions. That may be because its in my clothes, I've had the same clothes for a long time over 7 or 8 year and theire pretty ragidy i've just been struggling. Or it could be that since am wearing a new shirt I am stressing alot less and that causes the reactions to diminish. Thats another possible culprit "stress" I believe its got something to do with it. When we stress our sweat is alot stronger and we sweat more. I don't know what you think but I've been thinking about this a lot.
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