Is it grounds to feel betrayed?

[KATE535]

I have posted before, some background can be sourced from previous posts. I am in a relationship, now 21 months long. I'm 40, bf is 39 this month. I have returned about a similar theme to my last post. My bf has a passion - climbing. He loves nothing more than to climb. But he is semi-injured. He has finger problems at present and his climbing has had to become more balanced with rest and other activities. So he is climbing way less.
He has a climbing partner, a female. I would say she is also his best friend. Without going too deep into that as I have posted about it before, she and him have a passion for climbing and this shapes their friendship. He knew her before we met (18 months before I knew him) and to my knowledge they did a lot together from the off.
We have had many ups and downs over her. She has very few boundaries including telling my bf about her love for d**k, s*x interests, her menstruation, you name it. I know this stuff as he has been honest with me and has told me early on when I guess he thought I didn't mind hearing it.
Our relationship improved the less he saw her and became more balanced with climbing but she remains a friend and he will seek her out if she is available to go climbing (if his fingers are up to it).
Anyway, this woman knows I don't like her (us women know this stuff) and I know she doesn't like me. I would guess that she resents me coming between her and my bf as they aren't as close now. Another reason is because I confronted her for sending a semi naked picture to my bf when she shared her holiday album with him... because she is very 'open' like that. She apologised to me but it changed things with her. We stopped being friendly.
Anyway, all through their friendship she has been in a relationship herself. Albeit her bf is always working, isn't much of a climber and she would much rather spend time climbing and having fun with my bf than him. When my bf was single, she was not. I always wondered if she were single would he have tried with her. She recently broke up with her bf and at first I felt uneasy but my bf showed it made no difference to us as we have stayed together and he hasn't grown closer to her. That actually turned out to be a good thing for us as he showed who he wanted to be with.
Like I say, we are 21 months now. I have been sensitive at times about their friendship being too intense and he is way better with me now than her. She used to be the woman in his life and I was second fiddle to them and their climbing. Over time he has fallen deeper in love with me and expresses how much he wants to be with me. She has invited him to join her tomorrow on a climbing day - I have no issue with this. They are still friendly. All I have ever wanted is stronger boundaries.
So my post - it is about new information I had from my bf when I was asking him about a past event I had heard about. My bf went skinny dipping in the dark a couple of summers back. I know my bf is open about nudity and claims it is an innocent thing for him - the naturist concept - that nudity isn't sexual and perverts are not welcome within them. I found out that she was the other skinny dipper that night and another female friend didn't undress or go in the water, but was present too. I'll admit that I asked lots of questions about this evening. I said so you have seen her naked? He said yes. That got me asking why did you look at her body? A naturist wouldn't be doing that. He said he was a single man and made a quick glance at a naked woman next to him. He said her naked body did nothing for him and he felt no attraction.
I accept this was before our relationship. The problem I have is he has always promised me he has never been interested in her in that way despite their extremely close friendship, however he did check her out that night and 'tested the waters' to see if her body was attractive and would do it for him. The fact the outcome was she didn't have that effect is less important because he did check her out. I feel frustrated that he has always justified the nudity as innocent only to sneak a peek at the opportunity to do so. He defended himself saying 'as a single man I think it is natural to glance at a naked woman.' That may be true however I also do not see that aligning with the notion this is a friend who you had no interest in, in that way, nor with the view that a naturist does not see a naked woman in a sexual way. The very defence 'as a single man' suggests to me a sexual motivation in the looking.
The final element of my post is to say that he did not tell me about this for 21 months but continued to have a close relationship with this woman. I have been unhappy in the past with the semi-nude photo, her scantily clad attire, and feel stupid that the reality is he had seen it all anyway.
I feel betrayed by the secret and him checking out this naked friend. He acknowledges he should have told me sooner but thought I wouldn't react well. I guess he also suspected that his ongoing friendship with her could be a problem for our relationship if I knew he had seen her naked.

[KATE535]

Thank you! This was so helpful. I agree. I had a talk with my bf after reading your comment and said I am grateful for your honesty. It’s time to be positive about that. One great thing is that he does respect my wishes and my boundaries. It took a little time to establish what they were for our relationship but we are there. He does see her far less and chooses to prioritise us more than he did in the past. He does look back and think he let his climbing take over so much that he did spend too much time with her (in doing so, leaving me in the wings). He has also said he wouldn’t want to do anything like that (skinny dipping with other women) now that he has me… except if it was with me.

I think her whole blocking me is because I’m disposable to her. 1) she sees me as spoiling her climbing with my bf 2) she does see me as part of the climbing circle.  Therefore I don’t bring her anything she would want. She misses my bf no doubt.

I have told my bf that I don’t want him to lose his friend. To climb with her, still. I will always value boundaries and they will always need to be met to nurture our relationship. We are feeling positive going forward as I am putting the past behind us and we go forward with the trust we have.

[KATE535]

She doesn’t* see me as part of the climbing circle*

[AnnieBrooke]

I think he was telling you the truth when he said he would pretty much always take a quick look if someone of was sitting next to him with nothing on. (Who wouldn't?)  

It also seems very logical that he didn't tell you about that incident. Given you being constantly worried and suspicious about their relationship, he probably knew it would be like throwing gasoline on the flames and didn't feel like it was worth the trauma and drama even to talk about.

If you just can't stand it, end the relationship. If you think you can handle it, stay. But take loaded terms like "betrayal" out of the mix. He was probably just ducking his head from live fire.

[KATE535]

Hi, yes! I agree with you. I think writing betrayal came from needing a title and I reiterated the statement at the end. I would say the rest of the thread is an accurate reflection of my feelings. Betrayed is a step too far. I would reword it to mean I’m hurt over the secret.
Everything else you say is spot on. It’s been a sensitive theme throughout our relationship and it’s the one thing we have usually felt incompatible over - our views regarding opposite s*x friendships and boundaries. That said I have no issue with one of his other female friends so I think it’s an issue rooted in this particular woman.

[AnnieBrooke]

By now your boyfriend obviously is unlikely to volunteer anything that happened between him and his climbing friend before you two were an item. (Which, I don't know why you were asking him about in the first place ... it was BY -- Before You. And really, skinny dipping? You're getting bent out of shape about skinny dipping? It's not like it was an orgy.) He has clearly learned the hard way that there is no upside to telling you stuff about her; that it doesn't stop you from being worried about her.

I get that you suspect a current attraction that nobody is admitting (either from true vibes or because this woman's blabby style is too open for your taste). But it doesn't sound like your boyfriend is acting on it. He sounds like he's just a free-spirited guy and not too traditional, which isn't surprising in a climbing group. It's all pretty casual.

It also sounds like she will continue to be one of his pals. (He might even think he would look a little henpecked to his friends if he gives her up because you don't like her.)

If I were you, I'd consider ending the relationship, because you keep being on the lookout for signs that he's cheating, and that's tough to deal with. Then he can have the freedom to pursue her if that's what he really wants. He might surprise you by not being interested at all.  

[KATE535]

Thanks. I appreciate your honest response. I mean I posted to help me balance my perspective on things as I know how I see it isn’t helpful. It was before my time but it mattered to know because we have had problems with her boundaries our whole relationship. Her sending him semi nude pictures was the first. I told him I felt silly to have a problem with that when he knew what it all looked like anyway. It would never have been good for us to know they were skinny dipping. I agree imagine an orgy… well I guess I wouldn’t be in a relationship with anyone who was close friends with someone who had done that. I don’t constantly check he’s cheating with her. I believe it’s a platonic relationship. I guess she has always been a point of frustration. I’m not like that about anybody else. My bf himself says he thinks he handled things badly with her looking back and I guess he understands the sensitivity about her. We have such a wonderful relationship with regards to everything else.

[KATE535]

Just to add one more thing. And why it isn’t necessarily just being hung up about skinny dipping. My bf and her spent tons of alone time together throughout our first year as a couple. They went travelling to climbing spots, beaches and such and spent those days together. I obviously knew nothing about the skinny dipping as it wasn’t shared with me. So I don’t think I could be blamed for being upset that their alone time had some history of being pretty personal. Ok, not everyone would thing skinny dipping is personal. I probably do feel it is. I always trusted his boundaries during those times they were together and so it was hard finding out that their boundaries were in fact pretty lax. Far more than I thought. I wouldn’t have expected her to strip off around my bf when she had a bf herself. So discovering all that made me think about all those trips together and how much she probably wouldn’t have given it a second thought to be as open as she felt like being irrespective of her bf who was at home or work. That said I never thought they’d be cheating and still don’t. This has always been a question of relationship boundaries.

[KATE535]

Oops, I meant I wouldn’t have expected her to strip off around a single man (as he wasn’t my bf at the time. I was just referencing him as that) when she had a bf. I would have thought her having a bf throughout our relationship or even before I came along was a protective factor in ensuring they would not get into other territory or actions. And yes you are right that he’s free spirited but this situation got a lot of attention amongst the climbers as people were shocked. Us British people are not typically pro-naked. My bf is an anomaly. She is German and that’s typical enough. Her bf was British.

[KATE535]

I.e. not even free spirited (British) climbers do sh*t like that. So much so that it was a talking point amongst the climber circle. An eyebrow raiser, if you will.

[AnnieBrooke]

I posted about the mores of Germans and nudity, but the post hasn't surfaced though I can see it on my feeds.

[AnnieBrooke]

Point is, apparently nudism or just being casual about nudity is pretty common in Germany. So the question is, again, can you stand it the way things are? Because your boyfriend is not sounding like he's going to dump his friend, and she doesn't sound like she is going to stop being around. Given that they aren't having an affair, and all she's doing is grating on your nerves with her casual attitude about her body, I'd try to rise above and not be so triggered if I otherwise like the relationship.

[AnxiousNoMore]

I think you are doing too much guessing about the past, which led to pestering your bf for info that can only hurt you - fortunately he didn't. Now you are doing lots of purposeless guessing about the present and still bringing the past up in your last posts - purposeless because you'll never get the answer.
It doesn't seem that you will be happy with your bf, because you spend too much time guessing, which is the other advice here.> "I'd consider ending the relationship, because you keep being on the lookout for signs that he's cheating, and that's tough to deal with. Then he can have the freedom to pursue her if that's what he really wants. He might surprise you by not being interested at all."

[KATE535]

Me and my bf have had a really good talk about this situation. We are feeling very positive about our relationship. I have agreed that the situation needs no more attention. Nothing can be changed about it and besides that, going forward, my bf maintains that his choices would be different now that he’s with me. Quote: I have no interest in doing anything like that now that I’m with you. He understands that this woman has been a problem for our relationship and sees it quite differently in hindsight to how he used to. He does think he spent too much time with her but he was protective about his climbing and not hindering that. He said over time he decided for himself to prioritise our relationship more and in fact several weeks ago he told me I was his priority over climbing. Stating I can only be happy with my climbing if we are happy. And we really do have a wonderful relationship overall. It has grown immensely. I have overreacted to the situation because I’ve been sensitive about this woman. Aside from this she was hardly featuring in our conversations or my thoughts for some time. I even encouraged he went climbing with her last month and suggested he contact her as he hadn’t been for a week or so. The advice to end the relationship isn’t one I’d take. We love each other and we work well in so many ways. I do have to work on how I am about his friend depending on the context but we had improved so much until this new info. But that too I have decided to get over.

[TruthLady]

I see this post has aged a bit but I'll put my two cents in. It seems to me that this girl hasn't had sexual interest in your boyfriend until he hooked up with you. Now she feels him slipping away so she's being more daring about thirst trapping him, like sending him sexy photos just to see if she still has a sway over him. And it seems that she is that kind of woman she feeds on men's attention and sees other women as obstacles. But I also believe your boyfriend is honest, now that he's with you he is with you and has no interest in cheating especially with a person he had an access to this whole time. If he wanted to have sex with her why would he wait to be with someone and then do it, it makes no sense. Now, if I eas you I'd stop mentioning her, as long as she lives rent free in your mind she's winning. You're showing that you're intimidated by her and jealous of her and that eats away at you and she has the upper hand. But your boyfriend is faithful, he's yours so take the W and let it be.
About the skinny dipping you're reading waaaay too much into it. No doubt he has already pictured her naked so when she was standing naked near him ofc he's gonna look. I'd look and I'm a woman. When you go skinny dipping with someone you pretty much give your consent to be looked at so he didn't do anything wrong. And it has nothing to do with naturalists or whatever. And him not telling you goes to show he knows how insecure you are about this woman. That's not the facade you want. Being insecure can make a person very unattractive and difficult to deal with so I repeat myself: let it go. He's yours, not hers and over time he's being even more so.

[KATE535]

Thank you TruthLady. I came back to my post by chance. I've had such a busy month finishing my Masters. It is helpful to read your advice. Especially her winning if she's on my mind. She has gone travelling around Europe for a couple of months and has gone alone (this info I have had from my bf who knows this). She was going to do this trip with her own bf but didn't take him as they split. I mentioned to my bf that I think if she had invited him to travel around Europe with her (likely a lot of climbing involved) and I said if was a different type of partner (I was ok with it) I think he'd have gone with her. You know what... he didn't confirm nor deny it. I guess at times I just wish I had normality sometimes - a bf who would see himself going around Europe for 2 months with his partner and not another woman. I am oversensitive about her. I shouldn't have suggested that but sometimes emotions make me speak before I think 'will I like the answer to this? and if not, don't ask.'

[AnnieBrooke]

I do think the point about her being German is significant. I used to work at an archaeology site in Britain with diggers from several countries, and one day I found my German friend Torun doing some basic cooking thing (grating carrots or something) sitting in the sun, topless. It was just around the camp where all the diggers went in and out, and the guy who delivered food, and other strangers. I said, "Torun, aren't you worried about your modesty?" and she said, "Oh, no, it's no big deal." And apparently in Germany, it wasn't.

[specialmom]

To me, he does sound like he is faithful and trying in your relationship and has toned down things with her. Which is good. Frankly, she annoys ME and I haven't even met her!  I think you would let him know that you'd rather he not get naked with her present or be there when she does as it just kind of bothers you. He should understand. You aren't being clingy to say that.  But it sounds like things have progressed in a positive way for you two. And baby (congrats!!)

[KATE535]

Thank you Specialmom, you are right, it has progressed so much. I do need to let it go about her. I’ve told him that. He understands I’m sensitive about those times I was second best to this woman/ dynamic. I said also obviously it’s been disappointing to find out they got naked together with her being probably the worst person he could have done that with but I have also explained I will get over it. I have admitted to feeling silly about it like ‘it would be her, just my luck’. I have called myself childish for having that mindset. I’m not too proud to admit that.

Side note: me and her exchanged some online conversation this evening. No argument on my part, just a discussion. She quickly went into blaming me for them not climbing together anymore and added how much she still cares about him. I explained he is injured which is not my fault and that is his main reason for not climbing. She blocked whist saying she hasn’t got the patience for my BS. Well there we go, she proved how much she never respected me as her close friend’s partner. Earlier in the day I’d made the point to my bf that she should be willing to be friends with me too and us as a couple and he agreed that would have been best for us. Well that’s not going to happen now I guess.