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Is anyone on Armour?
Is anyone in our group on Armour and if so are you good with it? What are pro's and con's of say Armour and or Synthoid etc.
I go to Endo on monday so I want to be intelligent about this...thanks
Lisa
PS got my stiches out today and my scar line is absolutely flawless... it will heal up great inspite of blowing the first stich set. Doc says my site looks good inspite of added trauma...
I go to Endo on monday so I want to be intelligent about this...thanks
Lisa
PS got my stiches out today and my scar line is absolutely flawless... it will heal up great inspite of blowing the first stich set. Doc says my site looks good inspite of added trauma...
Hi. My wife takes Armour. She had all the symtoms of hypothyroidism for years. The doctors kept telling her she was fine. She eventually had half of her thyroid out due to a huge tumor (benign). She finally had a P.A. prescribe levothyroxine which helped all her syptoms: sleepy, constipation, dry skin, hair falling out. The medicine helped. About two years later she insisted with a bit of a fight with doctor to let her try Armour. All of her symtoms have disappeared. For HER Armour is better. Levothyroxine supplies T4 and your body must be able to convert it to T3. Armour has both. Go to the Armour web site. They have good info under facts etc. There is an awesome article at http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/mercola.htm The doctor in the article is very informative.
I want to thanks for replying with such helpful info re your wife. I have also read that people who start on on say sythroid may still have some symptoms but after switching to Armour they lose all symptoms. I would like to try Armour 1st. I hope my Endo is cooperative about it...
Anyone else on Armour????? Or been on it ? Or switched from it to sythroid Levrox. etc...
Lisa
Anyone else on Armour????? Or been on it ? Or switched from it to sythroid Levrox. etc...
Lisa
I took Armour and it was terrible for me. It has a very unnatural amount of T3 in it and I got horrible headaches from it.
The ratio is 4:1 of T4 to T3.
You can read about it here: http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/dt.php
so 30 mg Armour is 24 t4, 6 mg t3
60 mg Armour is 48 t4, 12 t3
90 mg Armour is 72 t4, 18 t3
As you can see....18 mgs is a lot of t3. Most people who take Cytomel dont take anymore that 10 mg with their T4 medication.
I was fine on the introductory dose of 30 mg of Armour, but once my TSH got higher and I needed to increase the meds, the worse I felt because of all the t3.
Just wanted to throw out another opinion. Armour CAN AND DOES work well for some people. But there are also other people just like me who cant tolerate it. Ill never take it again. It made me feel terrible.
The ratio is 4:1 of T4 to T3.
You can read about it here: http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/dt.php
so 30 mg Armour is 24 t4, 6 mg t3
60 mg Armour is 48 t4, 12 t3
90 mg Armour is 72 t4, 18 t3
As you can see....18 mgs is a lot of t3. Most people who take Cytomel dont take anymore that 10 mg with their T4 medication.
I was fine on the introductory dose of 30 mg of Armour, but once my TSH got higher and I needed to increase the meds, the worse I felt because of all the t3.
Just wanted to throw out another opinion. Armour CAN AND DOES work well for some people. But there are also other people just like me who cant tolerate it. Ill never take it again. It made me feel terrible.
Mavs3982's is far from the only person who has tried Armour and felt much worse, not better. Although there are people who do feel better after making the switch from levothyroxine to Armour, you might consider a "starter strategy" of taking levothyroxine initially while keeping Armour on your list of alternative strategies for the future. Anywhere from a few weeks to a year from now, when it seems that levothyroxine has done everything for you that it can do, you may feel well enough that you do not need an alternative strategy. The one entirely noncontroversial statement I can make is that there is no way to know in advance.
Although my endocrinologist is perhaps unusual in being open to prescribing Armour, I have shied away from it for the following reasons:
1) As pointed out, there is a serious imbalance of T4 and T3 in Armour.
2) If I want to take supplemental T3 as well as T4, which is an option my endocrinologist and I are discussing, I can take Cytomel. It is looking as if 75 mg. of T4 in pill form will be about right for me. If I decide to try taking Cytomel, my endocrinologist wants me to split a 5 mg. tablet in half. Compare that to the ratios that Mavs3982 shows you for different doses of Armour and you will see what we both mean about the imbalance. The inner consequences for you of an imbalance are potentially not minor.
3) Both levothyroxine and Cytomel are "synthetic" in the sense of being manufactured in a laboratory. In regard to the chemical structure of a medication, my bodily systems neither know nor care whether the pills I swallow came from desiccated pig parts or from a laboratory process.
4) "Natural" is not inherently good. Remember that the hemlock given to Socrates was entirely natural. So is the toxin that causes botulism.
5) In addition, "natural" in the case of Armour means that it is difficult for the manufacturer to ensure equal potency from one batch of pills to the next. The manufacturer assures us consumers that they go to great pains to ensure equal potency, but a person might reasonably wonder about whether they completely succeed.
Equal potency is not a problem with a brand name of levothyroxine that is reasonably fresh (which it should be in any reputable pharmacy) and that you store within a fairly narrow temperature range (59 to 77 degrees Farenheit, which was challenging for me in my always-too-warm apartment, until I discovered the wonderful gadget called a wine cooler). During the first four months of adjusting to levothyroxine, I had a roller-coaster pattern of ups and downs in my symptoms. My endocrinologist says that he sees about two patients a year who follow that sort of adjustment pattern. It was crazy-making enough without wondering whether I was getting the same amount of T4 in every pill I took.
When my endocrinologist first mentioned Armour and I said that the idea of taking something "natural" had no appeal for me, he replied that if you look at the way Armour is manufactured, it actually is not natural at all. Food for thought....
Although my endocrinologist is perhaps unusual in being open to prescribing Armour, I have shied away from it for the following reasons:
1) As pointed out, there is a serious imbalance of T4 and T3 in Armour.
2) If I want to take supplemental T3 as well as T4, which is an option my endocrinologist and I are discussing, I can take Cytomel. It is looking as if 75 mg. of T4 in pill form will be about right for me. If I decide to try taking Cytomel, my endocrinologist wants me to split a 5 mg. tablet in half. Compare that to the ratios that Mavs3982 shows you for different doses of Armour and you will see what we both mean about the imbalance. The inner consequences for you of an imbalance are potentially not minor.
3) Both levothyroxine and Cytomel are "synthetic" in the sense of being manufactured in a laboratory. In regard to the chemical structure of a medication, my bodily systems neither know nor care whether the pills I swallow came from desiccated pig parts or from a laboratory process.
4) "Natural" is not inherently good. Remember that the hemlock given to Socrates was entirely natural. So is the toxin that causes botulism.
5) In addition, "natural" in the case of Armour means that it is difficult for the manufacturer to ensure equal potency from one batch of pills to the next. The manufacturer assures us consumers that they go to great pains to ensure equal potency, but a person might reasonably wonder about whether they completely succeed.
Equal potency is not a problem with a brand name of levothyroxine that is reasonably fresh (which it should be in any reputable pharmacy) and that you store within a fairly narrow temperature range (59 to 77 degrees Farenheit, which was challenging for me in my always-too-warm apartment, until I discovered the wonderful gadget called a wine cooler). During the first four months of adjusting to levothyroxine, I had a roller-coaster pattern of ups and downs in my symptoms. My endocrinologist says that he sees about two patients a year who follow that sort of adjustment pattern. It was crazy-making enough without wondering whether I was getting the same amount of T4 in every pill I took.
When my endocrinologist first mentioned Armour and I said that the idea of taking something "natural" had no appeal for me, he replied that if you look at the way Armour is manufactured, it actually is not natural at all. Food for thought....
One more thought about pros and cons: If you opt for levothyroxine and your endocrinologist strongly favors Synthroid, be suspicious about whether he or she has been overly influenced by the drug marketing racket. Levothyroxine is an exception to the general rule that generic drugs are every bit as good as brand-name versions. It is important to take one of the recognized brands of levothyroxine (and to get the same brand every time a prescription is refilled).
Synthroid is no better than the others, however, unless it happens to be the brand that a particular person gets along with the best. Some of us seem to have hypersensitive systems where thyroid drugs are concerned, and I have heard of people who switched from one brand to another and felt better. The most usual switch seems to be AWAY from Synthroid, however. In addition, Synthroid seems slightly more likely than the other brands to cause a noticeable amount of hair loss in the early months of taking it.
I was delighted for you when I read your report of an absolutely flawless scar line. Having read your account of your unusually hair-raising time of it in surgery, I think that if anyone deserves to have some part of the overall process go unusually well, it is you! Will your broken tooth be easy to repair...I hope?
Synthroid is no better than the others, however, unless it happens to be the brand that a particular person gets along with the best. Some of us seem to have hypersensitive systems where thyroid drugs are concerned, and I have heard of people who switched from one brand to another and felt better. The most usual switch seems to be AWAY from Synthroid, however. In addition, Synthroid seems slightly more likely than the other brands to cause a noticeable amount of hair loss in the early months of taking it.
I was delighted for you when I read your report of an absolutely flawless scar line. Having read your account of your unusually hair-raising time of it in surgery, I think that if anyone deserves to have some part of the overall process go unusually well, it is you! Will your broken tooth be easy to repair...I hope?
Thats what I love about this site...you throw out a line and with in a few hours the fish (answers) you want are jumpin in the boat!!!! Thanks everybody for your info, I did check out the web sites mentioned and have a greater knowledge and a bit more confedence in my drug choices, It beats reading the PDR too. Thanks all/ anyone else want to add more comments/experiences???
Lisa
Lisa
I have just one more comment, Lisa: Good luck!!! Of course, you are opening the way for good luck by educating yourself and doing your own thinking, which is an excellent way to get the best care possible. As happened with your scar line, though, may all the parts of the process over which you have no control go very, very smoothly for you.
Crossing my fingers on your behalf,
Jenny
Crossing my fingers on your behalf,
Jenny
Good post, Jenny.
That was the thing. I thought Armour would be better just because it was natural. I didn't research it as well as I should have before I took the medicine.
The other thing that is interesting is prior to starting Armour, I had my Thyroid Peroixidase Antibodies tested nad Thyroglobulin Antibodies tested. I didn't have any at the time I started Armour.
Now....I was on Armour for about a year and I began to have more problems in Nov of last year because my TSH got high. We ran antibodies and they came back totally abnormal. More than likely, this has something to due w/ my immune system and thyroid disease, however, some people think that thoses who take Armour DEVELOP ANTIBODIES because it is made from a pig gland and the body can view Armour as an invader and "attack" your thyroid. It is just something my doc mentioned and it makes sense. There is no way to find out but your body could react to Armour as if it is something foreign.
That was the thing. I thought Armour would be better just because it was natural. I didn't research it as well as I should have before I took the medicine.
The other thing that is interesting is prior to starting Armour, I had my Thyroid Peroixidase Antibodies tested nad Thyroglobulin Antibodies tested. I didn't have any at the time I started Armour.
Now....I was on Armour for about a year and I began to have more problems in Nov of last year because my TSH got high. We ran antibodies and they came back totally abnormal. More than likely, this has something to due w/ my immune system and thyroid disease, however, some people think that thoses who take Armour DEVELOP ANTIBODIES because it is made from a pig gland and the body can view Armour as an invader and "attack" your thyroid. It is just something my doc mentioned and it makes sense. There is no way to find out but your body could react to Armour as if it is something foreign.
Wow, that is a sobering thought that Armour might actually cause antibodies. It is another reason to think twice about taking it.
I can understand why someone would favor Armour because it seems natural; the idea that natural is better is such an appealing idea. It is interesting how many flaws the idea turns out to have, though, when it is examined closely. In my younger days, I did not realize this at all. It is something I have learned over time.
Your posts have been good ones, too, Mavs, and I am sure it has helped Lisa to have every variety of fish come jumping out of the water after she threw out a line! This forum really is a priceless resource.
Best wishes to you both,
Jenny
I can understand why someone would favor Armour because it seems natural; the idea that natural is better is such an appealing idea. It is interesting how many flaws the idea turns out to have, though, when it is examined closely. In my younger days, I did not realize this at all. It is something I have learned over time.
Your posts have been good ones, too, Mavs, and I am sure it has helped Lisa to have every variety of fish come jumping out of the water after she threw out a line! This forum really is a priceless resource.
Best wishes to you both,
Jenny
Whoa now that info on the antibodies was pricless as I had Hasi's pre-TT so that means the antibodies are there already and I never gave thought to the idea that they might react to the Armour as an invader thyroid, Things that make you go Ummmm! You two have been so helpful, I am really blessed by so much experience here...Ok so Jen your on Levo, and Mavs you take Synthroid, do either of you use Cytomel and have either of you tried the Thymoral (this has the T3T4 combo in one pill)?
Lisa
And ps DANG GOOD Posting from both of you!
Lisa
And ps DANG GOOD Posting from both of you!
I have never taken Armour. I have MVP and I am a vegetarian, but here is my four cents worth of gathered information.
Some people develop TED - Thyroid Eye Disease, when they take animal-based extracts such as Armour, because the immune system react to foreign proteins found in glandular extracts. Synthetic meds. doesn't cause this probelm.
"Armour Thyroid tablets should be used with caution in patients with cardiovascular disease and it may increase the symptoms of diabetes, mellitus, diabetes inspidus or adrenal insufficiency".
GL,
1990 - Hyper/Graves'
1997 - Dia/RAI
1997 - MVP - Mitral Valve Prolapse
1999 - TED - slight Thyroid Eye Disease, one eye only
1999 - Visible Nodule (suspect Marine-Lenhart-Syndrom/hyperfunctioning nodule)
2000 - SAS - Short Attention Span
2002 - IED - Intermittent Explosive Disorder (Graves' Range)
Some people develop TED - Thyroid Eye Disease, when they take animal-based extracts such as Armour, because the immune system react to foreign proteins found in glandular extracts. Synthetic meds. doesn't cause this probelm.
"Armour Thyroid tablets should be used with caution in patients with cardiovascular disease and it may increase the symptoms of diabetes, mellitus, diabetes inspidus or adrenal insufficiency".
GL,
1990 - Hyper/Graves'
1997 - Dia/RAI
1997 - MVP - Mitral Valve Prolapse
1999 - TED - slight Thyroid Eye Disease, one eye only
1999 - Visible Nodule (suspect Marine-Lenhart-Syndrom/hyperfunctioning nodule)
2000 - SAS - Short Attention Span
2002 - IED - Intermittent Explosive Disorder (Graves' Range)
Thanks to for your contribution. I am pretty sure I will steer away from the Armour now. I think the autoimmune/ antibody aspect of my disease is a strong enough reason to avoid it. What replacment therapy are you using? You didnt mention in your post. Again I ask all of you if any one is using the combo drug Thymoral that has T3T4. or Levo/Synthroid with Cytomel??? Thanks again for all your help!
Lisa
Lisa
HI Lisa-
I am having a TT next Monday and I will be starting Synthroid. I will definitely let you know how it goes. :)
Some people do great on Armour, others dont. I think it's like that with all products. You just have to get the information first, evaluate and decide if it's a good fit for you. For example, I have Interstitial Cystitis (bladder problem) and I take 25 mg of Elavil for pain. I have zero problems with Elavil. Didnt gain weight, none of the side effects. But if you search the internet, some people swear that Elavil is the devil. I took a chance and it worked for me.
It sounds like you thought this out and that is great. Whehter or not you decide to take or not take Armour, I wish you the best! :)
I am having a TT next Monday and I will be starting Synthroid. I will definitely let you know how it goes. :)
Some people do great on Armour, others dont. I think it's like that with all products. You just have to get the information first, evaluate and decide if it's a good fit for you. For example, I have Interstitial Cystitis (bladder problem) and I take 25 mg of Elavil for pain. I have zero problems with Elavil. Didnt gain weight, none of the side effects. But if you search the internet, some people swear that Elavil is the devil. I took a chance and it worked for me.
It sounds like you thought this out and that is great. Whehter or not you decide to take or not take Armour, I wish you the best! :)
One more thing...
Thyrolar...the synthetic T3/T4 combo has the same combination fo T4 TO T3 that Armour has. It's just not made from a pig gland. So they are the same milligrams wise. One is pig, one is synthetic.
I am going to see how I do on Synthroid alone and if my FT3 is down, I will probably try a small dose of Cytomel. :)
Thyrolar...the synthetic T3/T4 combo has the same combination fo T4 TO T3 that Armour has. It's just not made from a pig gland. So they are the same milligrams wise. One is pig, one is synthetic.
I am going to see how I do on Synthroid alone and if my FT3 is down, I will probably try a small dose of Cytomel. :)
Lisa,
I am take Levoxyl. I tried Synthroid and found no difference between the two, but that's me and we are not all alike, as you know.
However, Synthroid contains Inactive Ingredients of: cornstarch, sugar, lactose, magnesium stearate, povidone, and talc, synthetic crystalline L-3,3',5,5'-tetraiodothyronine sodium, salt sodium.
Whereas, Levoxyl only contains Inactive Ingredients of: Microcrystalline cellulose, croscarmellose sodium and magnesium stearate.
GL,
1990 - Hyper/Graves'
1997 - Dia/RAI
1997 - MVP - Mitral Valve Prolapse
1999 - TED - slight Thyroid Eye Disease, one eye only
1999 - Visible Nodule (suspect Marine-Lenhart-Syndrom/hyperfunctioning nodule)
2000 - SAS - Short Attention Span
2002 - IED - Intermittent Explosive Disorder (Graves' Range)
I am take Levoxyl. I tried Synthroid and found no difference between the two, but that's me and we are not all alike, as you know.
However, Synthroid contains Inactive Ingredients of: cornstarch, sugar, lactose, magnesium stearate, povidone, and talc, synthetic crystalline L-3,3',5,5'-tetraiodothyronine sodium, salt sodium.
Whereas, Levoxyl only contains Inactive Ingredients of: Microcrystalline cellulose, croscarmellose sodium and magnesium stearate.
GL,
1990 - Hyper/Graves'
1997 - Dia/RAI
1997 - MVP - Mitral Valve Prolapse
1999 - TED - slight Thyroid Eye Disease, one eye only
1999 - Visible Nodule (suspect Marine-Lenhart-Syndrom/hyperfunctioning nodule)
2000 - SAS - Short Attention Span
2002 - IED - Intermittent Explosive Disorder (Graves' Range)
Hi, Lisa--
Thank you for the compliment about our postings! All of us "fish" who leaped out of the water when you threw out a line have wanted sincerely to help, I know, so I am delighted to know that we have succeeded.
I am sorry, though, to have been sluggish with a reply to your question. Before I answer your question, I want to say that you put it so well when you said, "Things that make you go Ummmm!"
Actually, let me explain my answer before I provide it. I have been taking Levothroid since mid-September. It was a scary moment when I began taking medication for my mild case of hypothyroidism. A year ago at this time, my one and only medical problem was a steadily worsening problem with sleep disturbances that formerly were completely "cured" by HRT. When I was diagnosed in June with hypothyroidism, the question was whether my thyroid gland was contributing to my problems with sleep. The worrisome alternative was that I had two conflicting problems going on at the same time...a thyroid gland that was not keeping up with its workload and a sleep-disturbance problem that would be worsened if I started taking thyroid medication.
Then my choice about taking or not taking levothyroxine was taken away, in a sense, as my thyroid gland's struggles began to produce some of hypothyroidism's familiar and highly vexing symptoms. Five months later, I am relieved to say that the drug has done nothing but good things for me. Wow, does it have an impact, though. Every time a dosage increase has seemed warranted, it has been my choice to limit the increase to 12.5 mcg. Even that small an increase (half of the weakest dose manufactured) sends my blood pressure soaring, gives me a rapid heartbeat, and causes my rosacea (skin condition) to flare. Then within a few days, blood pressure, pulse, bright red ears, and burning eyes all begin to simmer down again.
At my current dosage level of 75 mcg., I am tantalizingly close to feeling as well as I did a year ago. I also have seen thought-provoking evidence that my thyroid gland indeed has been contributing to my sleep disturbances, which seems a little contradictory but also makes sense mechanically, since the thyroid gland helps regulate serotonin.
It is too soon, however, to say that my endocrinologist and I have figured out the ideal levothyroxine dose for me. As he put it very well the last time I saw him, the process of finding the right dose of levothyroxine is very much like the process of turning a luxury liner around. Inevitably, it is a slow and cumbersome process requiring a lot of maneuvering.
I have a really super-guy of an endocrinologist, by the way. He was happy to assign the roles in our relationship in the way I wanted them to be assigned. I am the symptomatology record-keeper and accurate reporter, and I also am the chief decision-maker. He is the expert thinker and advisor. Neither of us has any interest in being a dictator.
I do state my preferences, and he has been supportive of each one of them. Early on, I told him that I strongly preferred to work on one area at a time with one specialist at a time. Eventually, I may need to see a neurologist and consider taking a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor to boost my night-time level of serotonin. I know that my endocrinologist would refer me in a minute if I wanted to see a sleep-specialist neurologist now, but he said he thought I was making good sense when I said, "Let's fix the thyroid problem first and then see where I am."
The question of taking Cytomel is a subcategory of this general idea, I think. The last time I saw my endocrinologist was the first time he mentioned Cytomel. It came up in our discussion sort of incidentally. He said that he has become a fan of combination therapy simply because he has found that many patients feel a shade better on a combination regimen. (He would be the first to confirm, however, that research findings are mixed, with some people apparently feeling worse when they take Cytomel, not better.) When I see him again in three weeks, I am going to say that having thought a lot about Cytomel, I may be interested in experimenting with taking it, but not yet.
Here is my thinking, just in case it is helpful to you as you do your own thinking. During the first three and a half months of taking levothyroxine, I steadily felt better overall, but believe me, "better" was an average! From one day to the next, my thyroid-related symptoms went up and down like a slowly moving roller coaster. During my crummiest days--and some of them were pretty crummy--it would have added to the emotional strain if I had been taking Cytomel. I would have wondered how I would be feeling if I were not taking Cytomel--would I feel better, or would I feel even crummier still?
Just after the first of the year, I went up the dosage scale from 50 mcg. of levothyroxine to 62.5. I had a slightly higher level of well-being than before, and I also had a stable level of well-being for the first time. Now that I am taking 75 mcg., the stability is even more so, but I still have an occasional Bad Thyroid day. I know that my endocrinologist will not be surprised to hear that, since as he said, the process I am going through is like trying to turn a luxury liner around.
Before I consider adding another drug to my daily routine, I would like to feel that I have gained as much well-being and as much stability as possible from levothyroxine alone. This is what I plan to tell my endocrinologist when I see him three weeks from now. I will be interested to see whether he again thinks that I am making good sense. It seems to me that it cuts down on potential confusion about what is causing what if I am dealing with one drug at a time. This might be doubly true with T3, which leaves the body much more quickly than T4 does (and I mean MUCH more), making it much more difficult for someone to find a good T3 medication routine (is my impression). In addition, I share Mavs' viewpoint. I think I would want to know if my free T3 level was poor, excellent, or somewhere in between before deciding that taking Cytomel makes sense.
There is SO much complexity involved--this is the thyroid-related fact that has had the greatest influence on my thinking. Only during my last visit with my endocrinologist did I realize that getting my TSH level down to a comfortable level is only one goal. Being sure that free T4 is up to a comfortable level is another goal. Once those two goals are met, if I am feeling reasonably well at that point, then I expect to have questions about the risk of upsetting the balance by taking supplemental T3 and also about whether there really would be any value added if I took T3. My difficult-to-treat sleep disturbances might be a reason to experiment with T3, but I am moving slowly and cautiously in this area of decision-making.
If I do eventually decide to try supplemental T3, I am sure that it will be in a separate pill (Cytomel) and not a switch to the combination pill. Actually, when I think about it, I wonder why anyone would bother to manufacture a combination pill with a fixed ratio of T4 and T3. Maybe there are people who so hate taking two pills (or who are so forgetful) that having a single pill is a help? Surely anyone who could take a combination pill would have hypothyroidism that was easy to treat, meaning that the person would feel reasonably well whether or not dosage levels were exact. I think I have proven myself not to be in that category at all! I would bet the cost of my next office visit to my endocrinologist that he would say I am reading his mind correctly: He would want to be able to balance the T4 and T3 I was taking exactly, which would mean separate pills. Then with me, there probably will be a time-of-day question, in that I sleep better if I take my levothyroxine dose late in the day.
One last comment: To be honest, I have not found it at all easy to take one drug at a time, to increase the dosage a baby step at a time, and then to wait a reasonable length of time before doing anything more. A running joke with myself and with friends is that when I was newly diagnosed and started to read about hypothyroidism, every time I read information about treatment with levothyroxine, the word "patience" seemed to be mentioned prominently. It did not mean much to me at the time, but wow, do I understand now! Every time I feel my patience slipping, though, I remember the principle "haste makes waste." Knowing that something such as cardiovascular health might get wasted by poor decisions or a lack of patience has helped me slow down and wait patiently, even though I often have had to twist my own arm to wring the patience out of myself.
I will keep you updated in regard to Cytomel and decision-making. For the moment, I am glad if we fellow forum members have helped you "prep" for your Monday endo visit. May the discussion go well (according to YOUR definition!).
Best wishes,
Jenny
Thank you for the compliment about our postings! All of us "fish" who leaped out of the water when you threw out a line have wanted sincerely to help, I know, so I am delighted to know that we have succeeded.
I am sorry, though, to have been sluggish with a reply to your question. Before I answer your question, I want to say that you put it so well when you said, "Things that make you go Ummmm!"
Actually, let me explain my answer before I provide it. I have been taking Levothroid since mid-September. It was a scary moment when I began taking medication for my mild case of hypothyroidism. A year ago at this time, my one and only medical problem was a steadily worsening problem with sleep disturbances that formerly were completely "cured" by HRT. When I was diagnosed in June with hypothyroidism, the question was whether my thyroid gland was contributing to my problems with sleep. The worrisome alternative was that I had two conflicting problems going on at the same time...a thyroid gland that was not keeping up with its workload and a sleep-disturbance problem that would be worsened if I started taking thyroid medication.
Then my choice about taking or not taking levothyroxine was taken away, in a sense, as my thyroid gland's struggles began to produce some of hypothyroidism's familiar and highly vexing symptoms. Five months later, I am relieved to say that the drug has done nothing but good things for me. Wow, does it have an impact, though. Every time a dosage increase has seemed warranted, it has been my choice to limit the increase to 12.5 mcg. Even that small an increase (half of the weakest dose manufactured) sends my blood pressure soaring, gives me a rapid heartbeat, and causes my rosacea (skin condition) to flare. Then within a few days, blood pressure, pulse, bright red ears, and burning eyes all begin to simmer down again.
At my current dosage level of 75 mcg., I am tantalizingly close to feeling as well as I did a year ago. I also have seen thought-provoking evidence that my thyroid gland indeed has been contributing to my sleep disturbances, which seems a little contradictory but also makes sense mechanically, since the thyroid gland helps regulate serotonin.
It is too soon, however, to say that my endocrinologist and I have figured out the ideal levothyroxine dose for me. As he put it very well the last time I saw him, the process of finding the right dose of levothyroxine is very much like the process of turning a luxury liner around. Inevitably, it is a slow and cumbersome process requiring a lot of maneuvering.
I have a really super-guy of an endocrinologist, by the way. He was happy to assign the roles in our relationship in the way I wanted them to be assigned. I am the symptomatology record-keeper and accurate reporter, and I also am the chief decision-maker. He is the expert thinker and advisor. Neither of us has any interest in being a dictator.
I do state my preferences, and he has been supportive of each one of them. Early on, I told him that I strongly preferred to work on one area at a time with one specialist at a time. Eventually, I may need to see a neurologist and consider taking a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor to boost my night-time level of serotonin. I know that my endocrinologist would refer me in a minute if I wanted to see a sleep-specialist neurologist now, but he said he thought I was making good sense when I said, "Let's fix the thyroid problem first and then see where I am."
The question of taking Cytomel is a subcategory of this general idea, I think. The last time I saw my endocrinologist was the first time he mentioned Cytomel. It came up in our discussion sort of incidentally. He said that he has become a fan of combination therapy simply because he has found that many patients feel a shade better on a combination regimen. (He would be the first to confirm, however, that research findings are mixed, with some people apparently feeling worse when they take Cytomel, not better.) When I see him again in three weeks, I am going to say that having thought a lot about Cytomel, I may be interested in experimenting with taking it, but not yet.
Here is my thinking, just in case it is helpful to you as you do your own thinking. During the first three and a half months of taking levothyroxine, I steadily felt better overall, but believe me, "better" was an average! From one day to the next, my thyroid-related symptoms went up and down like a slowly moving roller coaster. During my crummiest days--and some of them were pretty crummy--it would have added to the emotional strain if I had been taking Cytomel. I would have wondered how I would be feeling if I were not taking Cytomel--would I feel better, or would I feel even crummier still?
Just after the first of the year, I went up the dosage scale from 50 mcg. of levothyroxine to 62.5. I had a slightly higher level of well-being than before, and I also had a stable level of well-being for the first time. Now that I am taking 75 mcg., the stability is even more so, but I still have an occasional Bad Thyroid day. I know that my endocrinologist will not be surprised to hear that, since as he said, the process I am going through is like trying to turn a luxury liner around.
Before I consider adding another drug to my daily routine, I would like to feel that I have gained as much well-being and as much stability as possible from levothyroxine alone. This is what I plan to tell my endocrinologist when I see him three weeks from now. I will be interested to see whether he again thinks that I am making good sense. It seems to me that it cuts down on potential confusion about what is causing what if I am dealing with one drug at a time. This might be doubly true with T3, which leaves the body much more quickly than T4 does (and I mean MUCH more), making it much more difficult for someone to find a good T3 medication routine (is my impression). In addition, I share Mavs' viewpoint. I think I would want to know if my free T3 level was poor, excellent, or somewhere in between before deciding that taking Cytomel makes sense.
There is SO much complexity involved--this is the thyroid-related fact that has had the greatest influence on my thinking. Only during my last visit with my endocrinologist did I realize that getting my TSH level down to a comfortable level is only one goal. Being sure that free T4 is up to a comfortable level is another goal. Once those two goals are met, if I am feeling reasonably well at that point, then I expect to have questions about the risk of upsetting the balance by taking supplemental T3 and also about whether there really would be any value added if I took T3. My difficult-to-treat sleep disturbances might be a reason to experiment with T3, but I am moving slowly and cautiously in this area of decision-making.
If I do eventually decide to try supplemental T3, I am sure that it will be in a separate pill (Cytomel) and not a switch to the combination pill. Actually, when I think about it, I wonder why anyone would bother to manufacture a combination pill with a fixed ratio of T4 and T3. Maybe there are people who so hate taking two pills (or who are so forgetful) that having a single pill is a help? Surely anyone who could take a combination pill would have hypothyroidism that was easy to treat, meaning that the person would feel reasonably well whether or not dosage levels were exact. I think I have proven myself not to be in that category at all! I would bet the cost of my next office visit to my endocrinologist that he would say I am reading his mind correctly: He would want to be able to balance the T4 and T3 I was taking exactly, which would mean separate pills. Then with me, there probably will be a time-of-day question, in that I sleep better if I take my levothyroxine dose late in the day.
One last comment: To be honest, I have not found it at all easy to take one drug at a time, to increase the dosage a baby step at a time, and then to wait a reasonable length of time before doing anything more. A running joke with myself and with friends is that when I was newly diagnosed and started to read about hypothyroidism, every time I read information about treatment with levothyroxine, the word "patience" seemed to be mentioned prominently. It did not mean much to me at the time, but wow, do I understand now! Every time I feel my patience slipping, though, I remember the principle "haste makes waste." Knowing that something such as cardiovascular health might get wasted by poor decisions or a lack of patience has helped me slow down and wait patiently, even though I often have had to twist my own arm to wring the patience out of myself.
I will keep you updated in regard to Cytomel and decision-making. For the moment, I am glad if we fellow forum members have helped you "prep" for your Monday endo visit. May the discussion go well (according to YOUR definition!).
Best wishes,
Jenny
One more comment about the combination pill: Mavs pointed out that it has the same high ratio of T3 to T4 that Armour has, which seems like meaningful information to me. Although my endocrinologist has seen many patients feel better when taking T3 as well as T4, it was clear to me in what he said that he would want to be sure I was taking a very small T3 dose.
Over time, from the amount of information that I have been able to absorb at the layperson's level, I have come to think that we "hypo" patients need to be highly aware of the major areas of vulnerability that GravesLady mentioned in one of her posts: the cardiovascular system and the risk of developing Type II diabetes that virtually anyone has in the industrialized part of the world. Even if I could take a combination pill and feel as right as rain on it, I would be highly concerned about whether an undesirable T4/T3 ratio might be having bad effects inside me that would not become apparent until a few more years down the road.
Over time, from the amount of information that I have been able to absorb at the layperson's level, I have come to think that we "hypo" patients need to be highly aware of the major areas of vulnerability that GravesLady mentioned in one of her posts: the cardiovascular system and the risk of developing Type II diabetes that virtually anyone has in the industrialized part of the world. Even if I could take a combination pill and feel as right as rain on it, I would be highly concerned about whether an undesirable T4/T3 ratio might be having bad effects inside me that would not become apparent until a few more years down the road.
Hi, Lisa--
Would a terminology tutorial help you be fully prepped? In case the answer is "Yes," here it is:
Thyroxine--the hormone termed T4 that your thyroid gland produces.
Levothyroxine--The chemically identical, laboratory-produced "stand-in" for thyroxine.
Brand names of levothyroxine:
Levothroid
Levoxyl
Synthroid
Unithroid
As GravesLady pointed out, the inactive ingredients can differ from one brand to another. The thyroid medication, however, is the same levothyroxine in every brand.
With hopes that this is helpful,
Jenny
Would a terminology tutorial help you be fully prepped? In case the answer is "Yes," here it is:
Thyroxine--the hormone termed T4 that your thyroid gland produces.
Levothyroxine--The chemically identical, laboratory-produced "stand-in" for thyroxine.
Brand names of levothyroxine:
Levothroid
Levoxyl
Synthroid
Unithroid
As GravesLady pointed out, the inactive ingredients can differ from one brand to another. The thyroid medication, however, is the same levothyroxine in every brand.
With hopes that this is helpful,
Jenny
Interesting that the Thyrolar is the same ratio as Armour...I wonder why they set the T3 so high since it is clearly the prob in Armour for most people....At any rate thanks again for all the superb info. My best friend had a TT last year and is using Snythroid 100mg and uses the cytomel every other day (not sure the Mg.) She has had a year to tweek it and says this works best for her but she also does 200mg of Snythroid on sat. & sun. only. I thought this odd but she says it is working extremly well so even if unconventional she is pleased. Any body else heard of this kind of dosing???
My Endo seems to be very willing to listen and is not the "Power Tripper" doctor like so many I work with at the Hospital. She lets her degree be her ego which is nice for me.
I will and do challange any and all decisions regarding my health. I want to get back to my life and my job.
Nursing is funny in that you don't pay much attention to meds or illnesses outside of your own box. I work with bone and joint replacments which focuses on pain pumps with MS & or delauded...vicodan and toradol...some IV meds and thats pretty much it so when I am forced to learn new things I have to have all the perspectives so I can judge acurately myself. Thats why I am so geeked about this site...nothing better then the geunia pigs (myself included) to ask all questions too. Am I right??? Thanks again all your insights are priceless!!!!
Lisa
ps Jenn keep me posted on the cytomel okay
My Endo seems to be very willing to listen and is not the "Power Tripper" doctor like so many I work with at the Hospital. She lets her degree be her ego which is nice for me.
I will and do challange any and all decisions regarding my health. I want to get back to my life and my job.
Nursing is funny in that you don't pay much attention to meds or illnesses outside of your own box. I work with bone and joint replacments which focuses on pain pumps with MS & or delauded...vicodan and toradol...some IV meds and thats pretty much it so when I am forced to learn new things I have to have all the perspectives so I can judge acurately myself. Thats why I am so geeked about this site...nothing better then the geunia pigs (myself included) to ask all questions too. Am I right??? Thanks again all your insights are priceless!!!!
Lisa
ps Jenn keep me posted on the cytomel okay
I agree with you, Lisa, about Thyrolar. Since the optimal ratio is known, it seems odd that anyone would manufacture a combination pill with an obviously out-of-proportion T3. Oh, well, I would prefer the flexibility (and therefore the ability to try for exactitude) of separate medications no matter what. I can swallow twice rather than once; no big deal. ;o)
Your best friend's regimen is very interesting. I could imagine that taking 200 mcg. on two days of the week only could be okay. Her endocrinologist okayed this, I am assuming, and I also assuming, if she is good friends with you, that she has the sort of endocrinologist who is open to trying something unusual and also to communicating openly.
I am so glad that YOU have a good, non-"Power Tripper" endocrinologist. Having been a nurse's aide, I know that if you need medical help in an area that is outside your own "box," it can be about as difficult to find a good physician/partner as it is for a layperson to find one. Patients with your style and mine (meaning: we can and do challenge any and all decisions about our health, because after all, we have to live with the consequences) get the best outcomes, but it is not always easy to find a doc who will work with us rather than butting heads with us.
As for self-education, I am exactly like you. I have to have all the perspectives before I can judge for myself. For this reason, I am geeked about this site, too!! I think that all of us are pretty good about realizing our limitations as laypeople, but we have picked up useful insights along the way. It is wonderful to look through a set of comments and have a variety of perspectives laid out for you. As you said, it sure beats reading the PDR!
I will indeed keep you posted on Cytomel and how my and my endo's thinking about it unfolds. In the meantime: Take care.
Sincerely,
Jenny
Your best friend's regimen is very interesting. I could imagine that taking 200 mcg. on two days of the week only could be okay. Her endocrinologist okayed this, I am assuming, and I also assuming, if she is good friends with you, that she has the sort of endocrinologist who is open to trying something unusual and also to communicating openly.
I am so glad that YOU have a good, non-"Power Tripper" endocrinologist. Having been a nurse's aide, I know that if you need medical help in an area that is outside your own "box," it can be about as difficult to find a good physician/partner as it is for a layperson to find one. Patients with your style and mine (meaning: we can and do challenge any and all decisions about our health, because after all, we have to live with the consequences) get the best outcomes, but it is not always easy to find a doc who will work with us rather than butting heads with us.
As for self-education, I am exactly like you. I have to have all the perspectives before I can judge for myself. For this reason, I am geeked about this site, too!! I think that all of us are pretty good about realizing our limitations as laypeople, but we have picked up useful insights along the way. It is wonderful to look through a set of comments and have a variety of perspectives laid out for you. As you said, it sure beats reading the PDR!
I will indeed keep you posted on Cytomel and how my and my endo's thinking about it unfolds. In the meantime: Take care.
Sincerely,
Jenny
Keep in mind that Forest Pharmacuticals, the makers or Armour, also make Thyrolar as well.
Funny how those kinds of questions end up having a simple answer...to keep the natural from being overertly to T3 the just make the Snythic match...smart marketing actually/ I really don't trust pharmaceuticals did you know it means Sorcery in greek "Pharmakia" hahahaha I really don't trust them tho / thanks guys
Lisa
Lisa
No, I had no idea of the meaning of "pharmaceutical." Sorcery, eh? It really fits. The drug industry in America is such a racket. A patient support forum focused on nothing but pharmaceuticals and their manufacturers would get a lot of traffic, I would bet.
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