Aa
VITAMIN-E AND RESVERATROL REPLICATE HCV
hello to all and hope my post finds u all in better health and spirit .
I am 38 years old and got infected with hcv 3 years ago , i went through the regular tx and relapsed within 2 weeks of completeing ( geno 1a ), anyway i now await the new treatments that are suppose to come out in the next year or two and will decide then as to what needs to be done .
(i did post once before about the same topic .. but got no feedback except from a genteleman named bill - thanks bill .)
the only reason i post is to share my story and make others aware of the harm of "vit e and resveratrol" .
well here we go again ....
last year in december all m liver enzimes were normal ie: ast 30 alt 30 , but i was still hcv + with a viral load of 9000 .
in feburary this year i started feeling a bit weak and decided that juiceing may be a good idea , i started juicing with strawberries , black and green grapes , carrots , pomegranade , and some lemon .
i was also having my regular supplements that include - milk thistle , vit b / c / and a multi vit withought iron .
after a few days of juicing and feeeling mentally good i added vitamin e to my supplement list - reading that it was a great anti-oxidant .
well i was due for a lft in march and my report came back with ast= 62 and alt 161 . i continued with the juice and the vit e not realinzing that they could be the culprit .
after 2 weeks of checking again my ast was 106 and alt 320 ... and thereafter another week they went up to ast- 116 and alt = 400 , i paniced and though what is it... what is it ..... here im trying to do everything thats good for my body and liver but whats going on .... then thanx to the mystic law of the universe i tumbeled upon this study .
Quote from the article.
"To date, only a limited number of studies have reported finding an influence of ordinary nutrients on hepatitis C virus (HCV) RNA replication. However, the effects of other nutrients on HCV RNA replication remain largely unknown.
Here, using this OR6 assay system, we comprehensively examined 46 nutrients from four nutrient groups: vitamins, amino acids, fatty acids, and salts. We found that three nutrients-beta-carotene, vitamin D(2), and linoleic acid-inhibited HCV RNA replication and that their combination caused additive and/or synergistic effects on HCV RNA replication. In addition, combined treatment with each of the three nutrients and interferon alpha or beta or fluvastatin inhibited HCV RNA replication in an additive manner, while combined treatment with cyclosporine synergistically inhibited HCV RNA replication. In contrast, we found that vitamin E enhanced HCV RNA replication and negated the effects of the three anti-HCV nutrients and cyclosporine but not those of interferon or fluvastatin. These results will provide useful information for the treatment of chronic hepatitis C patients who also take anti-HCV nutrients as an adjunctive therapy in combination with interferon. In conclusion, among the ordinary nutrients tested, beta-carotene, vitamin D(2), and linoleic acid possessed anti-HCV activity in a cell culture system, and these nutrients are therefore considered to be potential candidates for enhancing the effects of interferon therapy.".
link for the above study - http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/short/51/6/2016
also then i did a little more reading and found this ...
AIM: To elucidate the effect of antioxidants, resveratrol (RVT) and astaxanthin (AXN), on hepatitis C virus (HCV) replication. METHODS: We investigated the effect of recent popular antioxidant supplements on replication of the HCV replicon system OR6. RVT is a strong antioxidant and a kind of polyphenol that inhibits replication of various viruses. AXN is also a strong antioxidant. The replication of HCV RNA was assessed by the luciferase reporter assay. An additive effect of antioxidants on antiviral effects of interferon (IFN) and ribavirin (RBV) was investigated. RESULTS: This is the first report to investigate the effect of RVT and AXN on HCV replication. In contrast to other reported viruses, RVT significantly enhanced HCV RNA replication. Vitamin E also enhanced HCV RNA replication as reported previously, although AXN did not affect replication. IFN and RBV significantly reduced HCV RNA replication, but these effects were dose-dependently hampered and attenuated by the addition of RVT. AXN did not affect antiviral effects of IFN or RBV. CONCLUSION: These results suggested that RVT is not suitable as an antioxidant therapy for chronic hepatitis.
heres the link for the above study - http://www.myhealthfulworld.com/content/an-antioxidant-resveratrol-significantly-enhanced-replication-hepatitis-c-virus
i since have completely stopped taking the vit e and the juice . please note that grapes , peanuts , strawberries and pomegranade all contain high amounts of resvetrol .
I also stopped taking the multivitamin withough iron as it contained vit e ...
i have discussed this topic with a few friends but they dont seem to think resvetrol and vit e can do any harm !!! i wonder !!
but the same hcv community will come down ure throat if u say u had a beer or a steak .... ( i dont drink or eat red meat anymore ) saying that alcohol replicates hcv ... and iron is bad .. u shouldnt even eat spinich ....
well i would also like to add that 2 weeks of no juice and vit e .... and milk thistle 2 times a day have bought my ast from 116 to 96 , and alt from 400 to 275 .
PLEASE MY FRIENDS be carefull of what u eat and drink when suffering from hcv ... saying that " its natural " dosent mean its good for us ... we have a specific disease .... mud is natural too - would we eat it !!!
people without liver disease can eat and drink all that they want ..including mud -;) ..... but not us ,
i may be wrong and do welcome ure inputs .
also before i leave - i need to ask u all a small question .
as i said earlier - i was infected ( not diagnosed ) with hcv 3 years ago , do i need to get a live biopsy done !!! i dont drink or eat red meat and oily food , my ultra sound shows no enlargement ... but i am tired and have fatgue all the time .... yes my liver enzimes are high .. but im pretty sure that the reason behind that is the resveratrol and the vit e tablets which i have stopped taking now . .
thanking u and wishing u all well - await ure inputs regarding the bx .. and hope u all find the above studies helpfull.
pacman
I am 38 years old and got infected with hcv 3 years ago , i went through the regular tx and relapsed within 2 weeks of completeing ( geno 1a ), anyway i now await the new treatments that are suppose to come out in the next year or two and will decide then as to what needs to be done .
(i did post once before about the same topic .. but got no feedback except from a genteleman named bill - thanks bill .)
the only reason i post is to share my story and make others aware of the harm of "vit e and resveratrol" .
well here we go again ....
last year in december all m liver enzimes were normal ie: ast 30 alt 30 , but i was still hcv + with a viral load of 9000 .
in feburary this year i started feeling a bit weak and decided that juiceing may be a good idea , i started juicing with strawberries , black and green grapes , carrots , pomegranade , and some lemon .
i was also having my regular supplements that include - milk thistle , vit b / c / and a multi vit withought iron .
after a few days of juicing and feeeling mentally good i added vitamin e to my supplement list - reading that it was a great anti-oxidant .
well i was due for a lft in march and my report came back with ast= 62 and alt 161 . i continued with the juice and the vit e not realinzing that they could be the culprit .
after 2 weeks of checking again my ast was 106 and alt 320 ... and thereafter another week they went up to ast- 116 and alt = 400 , i paniced and though what is it... what is it ..... here im trying to do everything thats good for my body and liver but whats going on .... then thanx to the mystic law of the universe i tumbeled upon this study .
Quote from the article.
"To date, only a limited number of studies have reported finding an influence of ordinary nutrients on hepatitis C virus (HCV) RNA replication. However, the effects of other nutrients on HCV RNA replication remain largely unknown.
Here, using this OR6 assay system, we comprehensively examined 46 nutrients from four nutrient groups: vitamins, amino acids, fatty acids, and salts. We found that three nutrients-beta-carotene, vitamin D(2), and linoleic acid-inhibited HCV RNA replication and that their combination caused additive and/or synergistic effects on HCV RNA replication. In addition, combined treatment with each of the three nutrients and interferon alpha or beta or fluvastatin inhibited HCV RNA replication in an additive manner, while combined treatment with cyclosporine synergistically inhibited HCV RNA replication. In contrast, we found that vitamin E enhanced HCV RNA replication and negated the effects of the three anti-HCV nutrients and cyclosporine but not those of interferon or fluvastatin. These results will provide useful information for the treatment of chronic hepatitis C patients who also take anti-HCV nutrients as an adjunctive therapy in combination with interferon. In conclusion, among the ordinary nutrients tested, beta-carotene, vitamin D(2), and linoleic acid possessed anti-HCV activity in a cell culture system, and these nutrients are therefore considered to be potential candidates for enhancing the effects of interferon therapy.".
link for the above study - http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/short/51/6/2016
also then i did a little more reading and found this ...
AIM: To elucidate the effect of antioxidants, resveratrol (RVT) and astaxanthin (AXN), on hepatitis C virus (HCV) replication. METHODS: We investigated the effect of recent popular antioxidant supplements on replication of the HCV replicon system OR6. RVT is a strong antioxidant and a kind of polyphenol that inhibits replication of various viruses. AXN is also a strong antioxidant. The replication of HCV RNA was assessed by the luciferase reporter assay. An additive effect of antioxidants on antiviral effects of interferon (IFN) and ribavirin (RBV) was investigated. RESULTS: This is the first report to investigate the effect of RVT and AXN on HCV replication. In contrast to other reported viruses, RVT significantly enhanced HCV RNA replication. Vitamin E also enhanced HCV RNA replication as reported previously, although AXN did not affect replication. IFN and RBV significantly reduced HCV RNA replication, but these effects were dose-dependently hampered and attenuated by the addition of RVT. AXN did not affect antiviral effects of IFN or RBV. CONCLUSION: These results suggested that RVT is not suitable as an antioxidant therapy for chronic hepatitis.
heres the link for the above study - http://www.myhealthfulworld.com/content/an-antioxidant-resveratrol-significantly-enhanced-replication-hepatitis-c-virus
i since have completely stopped taking the vit e and the juice . please note that grapes , peanuts , strawberries and pomegranade all contain high amounts of resvetrol .
I also stopped taking the multivitamin withough iron as it contained vit e ...
i have discussed this topic with a few friends but they dont seem to think resvetrol and vit e can do any harm !!! i wonder !!
but the same hcv community will come down ure throat if u say u had a beer or a steak .... ( i dont drink or eat red meat anymore ) saying that alcohol replicates hcv ... and iron is bad .. u shouldnt even eat spinich ....
well i would also like to add that 2 weeks of no juice and vit e .... and milk thistle 2 times a day have bought my ast from 116 to 96 , and alt from 400 to 275 .
PLEASE MY FRIENDS be carefull of what u eat and drink when suffering from hcv ... saying that " its natural " dosent mean its good for us ... we have a specific disease .... mud is natural too - would we eat it !!!
people without liver disease can eat and drink all that they want ..including mud -;) ..... but not us ,
i may be wrong and do welcome ure inputs .
also before i leave - i need to ask u all a small question .
as i said earlier - i was infected ( not diagnosed ) with hcv 3 years ago , do i need to get a live biopsy done !!! i dont drink or eat red meat and oily food , my ultra sound shows no enlargement ... but i am tired and have fatgue all the time .... yes my liver enzimes are high .. but im pretty sure that the reason behind that is the resveratrol and the vit e tablets which i have stopped taking now . .
thanking u and wishing u all well - await ure inputs regarding the bx .. and hope u all find the above studies helpfull.
pacman
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
Vitamin D2- yes D2- has surprisingly shown to be of a stronger antifibrotic acitivity in stellate cell assays than D3 (AASLD and HEPDART ). This has nothing to do with the general health benefits of Vit D3. I would not use beta carotene or linoleic acid, rather omega3s or Polyenylphosphatitylcholine (PPC).
It is unfortunately not possible to give a rational priority between Curcumin and Resveratrol as potentially effective antifibrotics/antiinflammatory compounds in the liver context.
The in vitro study mentioned above by Willig generates some uneasy feelings regards Resveratrol, because the expression of 3 theoretical profibrotic genes in an in vitro human stellate cell line has been increased, but it is entirely unclear if this has meaning in the in vivo setting.There is other research pointing in the opposite direction.
Human patient studies regarding antifibrosis with these natural compounds, comparing them side by side, are not likely to happen, since these studies are very costly.
It is unfortunately not possible to give a rational priority between Curcumin and Resveratrol as potentially effective antifibrotics/antiinflammatory compounds in the liver context.
The in vitro study mentioned above by Willig generates some uneasy feelings regards Resveratrol, because the expression of 3 theoretical profibrotic genes in an in vitro human stellate cell line has been increased, but it is entirely unclear if this has meaning in the in vivo setting.There is other research pointing in the opposite direction.
Human patient studies regarding antifibrosis with these natural compounds, comparing them side by side, are not likely to happen, since these studies are very costly.
What about the vitaminD (2), beta carotene, linoeic acid that inhibited the virus in the above study in question? I know you told us extensively about vit D 3 and I think a lot of us have that in place. Are the beta carotene and linoleic acid a safe/good idea?
If I have to choose between resveratrol and curcumin because of the cost, which would you choose? I have had to stop the PPC because of budget restraints for now. If it was the most important, I could cut some of the others and focus on it. Just wondering how you would choose to rank them if you had a child with cirrhosis and had a low income. :>)
I would also like to ask you if you have any thoughts about low -dose Naltrexone? I researched it to the best of my ability and it seemed safe. Joe's 3rd TX attempt was 15 months long with Infergen, Riba, Alinia and he failed to get to undetectable. I gave him LDN afterwards and all I can say is he recovered quicker and better than I would have expected after 15 grueling months. The two previous attempt were only 13 weeks each and I think his recovery was harder and slower. Of course,those were also before taking your supplement list so that may be the REAL difference. We started right back on your liver lovin' list.
Hoping for your valued opinion,
Ev
If I have to choose between resveratrol and curcumin because of the cost, which would you choose? I have had to stop the PPC because of budget restraints for now. If it was the most important, I could cut some of the others and focus on it. Just wondering how you would choose to rank them if you had a child with cirrhosis and had a low income. :>)
I would also like to ask you if you have any thoughts about low -dose Naltrexone? I researched it to the best of my ability and it seemed safe. Joe's 3rd TX attempt was 15 months long with Infergen, Riba, Alinia and he failed to get to undetectable. I gave him LDN afterwards and all I can say is he recovered quicker and better than I would have expected after 15 grueling months. The two previous attempt were only 13 weeks each and I think his recovery was harder and slower. Of course,those were also before taking your supplement list so that may be the REAL difference. We started right back on your liver lovin' list.
Hoping for your valued opinion,
Ev
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
Regarding the effect of Vitamin E as investigated in the above article: the fivefold increase in replication intensity was achieved at concentrations of Vitamin E that can be expected to occur after supplementation with reasonable amounts, say 300mg. One can only assume they used alpha tocopherol, the method section did not further define the actual substance used beyond the term "Vit E".
Assuming that the replicon model used reflects the situation in vivo in other respects, one would expect that the VL in patients using Vit E would increase, but this is far from certain.
One also wonders about the mechanisms in place. HCV exerts oxidative damage to the hepatocytes and is quite dependent in its synthesis on the lipid metabolism of the liver. Vit E might prevent some of the oxidative damage to these lipids, making them more useful for viral replication , but also it might reduce the cellular stress that the virus exerts, actually reducing hepatocellular damage and stress signaling. All this is speculation and it would be interesting to see if anybody can report a direct influence of start /stop of such supplementation on HCV VLs and ALT levels.
Assuming that the replicon model used reflects the situation in vivo in other respects, one would expect that the VL in patients using Vit E would increase, but this is far from certain.
One also wonders about the mechanisms in place. HCV exerts oxidative damage to the hepatocytes and is quite dependent in its synthesis on the lipid metabolism of the liver. Vit E might prevent some of the oxidative damage to these lipids, making them more useful for viral replication , but also it might reduce the cellular stress that the virus exerts, actually reducing hepatocellular damage and stress signaling. All this is speculation and it would be interesting to see if anybody can report a direct influence of start /stop of such supplementation on HCV VLs and ALT levels.
Please explain CYP3A4? And why it is so important with regards to viral treatments?
I know grapefruit has something to do with it but I can't recall it exactly and I can't remember whether it is good or bad to inhibit it's action. I also seem to recall a connection between cigarettes and CYP3A4.
Thank you!
Epi
I know grapefruit has something to do with it but I can't recall it exactly and I can't remember whether it is good or bad to inhibit it's action. I also seem to recall a connection between cigarettes and CYP3A4.
Thank you!
Epi
Pacman if you are to listen to anyone of us HR is the one with the professional expertise - take their advice to heart.
HR - great to see you again! :)
" i would not like to believe that i have cirossis or fibrosis within 3 years of getting infected . "
Pac I wouldn't think this is very likely at all - biopsy is not like you imagine it is more like a big syringe, you dn't feel anything and if you really are concerned you should go for it. They will most likely give you something before hand to make it easier for you. Like I said though I don't think within 3 years is too likely but you do have to take care of your liver. For example I partied and partied for 20 years and did nothing to care for my liver - when I was diagnosed 20/25 years later I was stage 3......but I earned it to be honest. Stupidity - when I was a kid I thought I"d live forever now that I'm getting older I worry about it constantly, youth is truly wasted on the young.
Try not to worry. I'm not sure why your doc won't give you an AD but it seems like it would be a great idea if you could talk him into it and you don't have to stay on it forever. I took paxill and then after treatment stopped.....I'm still nuts ;) but thats ok it's just me.
Deb
HR - great to see you again! :)
" i would not like to believe that i have cirossis or fibrosis within 3 years of getting infected . "
Pac I wouldn't think this is very likely at all - biopsy is not like you imagine it is more like a big syringe, you dn't feel anything and if you really are concerned you should go for it. They will most likely give you something before hand to make it easier for you. Like I said though I don't think within 3 years is too likely but you do have to take care of your liver. For example I partied and partied for 20 years and did nothing to care for my liver - when I was diagnosed 20/25 years later I was stage 3......but I earned it to be honest. Stupidity - when I was a kid I thought I"d live forever now that I'm getting older I worry about it constantly, youth is truly wasted on the young.
Try not to worry. I'm not sure why your doc won't give you an AD but it seems like it would be a great idea if you could talk him into it and you don't have to stay on it forever. I took paxill and then after treatment stopped.....I'm still nuts ;) but thats ok it's just me.
Deb
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