Do you believe in Hell?

[flmagi]

Anyone want to discuss some deep issues?
Discuss, not argue.
Do you believe in Hell? What do you think Hell is?
Is there a grading system when you die, that decides whether you go to Heaven or Hell? And what if you fall short by just 1 point, is there a re-do exam?
Do you get a second chance after you go to Hell?
If all young children that die, go to Heaven, then doesn't abortion assure these babies a place in Heaven? Where as, if they were allowed to grow, live and die, certainly some of them would go to Hell?

[LateAugust]

I'm sorry I didn't answer your orginal question........      No, I do not believe in hell,  based on faith,   or accepting God,  or begging for forgiveness, rather  I beleive a cruel individual's life will cease when they die.  Those of a pure and good heart/soul regardless  of whom they pray to or what God they worship will have everlasting peace........  simplistic I know,  but my belief.

[BaronMunchausen]

This is why I prefer the concept "Word inspired by God" as opposed to "Word of God".

There is also the concept that imperfect beings cannot fully comprehend perfect things. Our imperfect perception filters perfect events and we can only experience them in a limited sense.

Assuming that we are reading the bible as the literal, perfect word of God and comprehending it's true, perfect context is... dangerous.

[joycekatherine]

My thoughts exactly!!  No one can say that this version or that version of the bible is completely and totally God's word.  They are Man's words.  Is it a good book to live by??
Yes, to some degree...do I believe every word that is written in the bible?? No.  God is love...and if that is true, I don't believe that he/she would be against any love from any source, even homosexual love...I believe that "Homosexuality" being an abomination is Man's word, not God's...how easy would it have been for the writers of the bible to say, "I think that this or that is wrong, so I will say that God said it is wrong and people will go along with the same mindset so as not to offend God...to put the "fear" of God into those
whose sexual orientation goes against what I (Man) think is an abomination...interpretation is everything... and nothing, because it can't be proven to be one way or the other...

[flmagi]

It is a known fact, that many people can witness an incident and each person will describe the incident differently.......even immediately after the incident.
So how can the Bible be an accurate accounting of things that were said & happened, when it was written by man, many, many years after all the things written about?    I don't doubt that there was a Jesus of Nazareth and that he was a very great man, with a great understanding of the human condition, and that he had many followers.
To early in the morning,....I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee. I'll finish my thoughts on this later.

[joycekatherine]

"No.  Cain or Seth married his sister.  Incest is sex between close relatives outside of
marriage.  Now it is true that later, under the Mosaic Law, marriage between close relatives was forbidden because of increasing genetic problems.  But in the beginning this was not a problem.  So the fact that Cain married his sister or niece, and Seth did the same, doesn’t mean that God condoned incest.  Incest has always been a sin.  This was not incest, this was marriage."  Burrpatch

So, does that mean that if 2 relatives are married it is no longer considered incest?
Also, I did not say that God condoned incest, I asked if he did?
I realize that Lilith is not mentioned in the KJV of the bible, she is mentioned in others, it all depends on which translation you believe to be true...and doesn't the very fact that translation is key prove that not all "facts" from any given bible are cut in stone?  Remember, I said that the bible was written by "MAN" and therefore slanted to represent that "mans" interpretation of the facts.  The bible was not written by God or Jesus, but, by many men from their individual take on what happened and what was said.  We all know how the facts of a story can bend and change by the retelling of it many times...the word of God, yes, sometimes, the word of man, more often likely...
Thank you for referring me to straight dope, I'll definitely give it a read....I hope that my questions didn't offend...they weren't meant to be challenging anyone's beliefs...just trying to learn...these kinds of questions do seem to put others on the defensive...

[HelpinUtah]

I don't think you're upsetting anyone by asking these questions.  I am thankful that so far everyone has been polite to each other and their beliefs.  I'm thankful we are able to believe what we want without persecution.  

I hope the compound life is getting easier!?  Tom and I are buying a home and I'm getting excited but freaked out at the same time!  LOL!!!

Anyway, I hope you have a lovely day!  

Hugs,
Janet

[flmagi]

Again, I'm not asking these questions to pis s anyone off, but here's a very interesting site, that brings up a lot of questions.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_doland/strobel.html

[flmagi]

Baron/Savas:  I have no problem with you "hijacking" this thread. I'm glad you're posting to it....always interested in your view points.  :)
Also good idea to start a new thread if this gets to long.

[BaronMunchausen]

Hey, I put that up in my journals. Hope it's interesting.

Outoftown, there is really no contradition between being an agnostic and attempting to be a biblical scholar. Ironically, I would guess I spend about an hour minimum reading the bibles every day, cross referencing and looking meanings and interesting points of debate.
an agnostic or atheist is merely a position that there is no empircal evidence for belief in the Supernatural.

The Agnostic refuses to make a defining statement on God's existence as a result of this.

The Atheist supports the claim that lack of empirical evidence leads them to conclude there is no God.

But since I was raised on these books (Judaic/Catholic) I have some intimate knowlege of them.
And one thing I do love is the pursuit of knowledge and truth. So I can still get great pleasure from discussing the contexts and meanings of the bibles, even if I don't believe. :->

[BaronMunchausen]

No, not his entire work. But the relevant passages that have been used for external biblical proof of Jesus's existence are not reliable.

Hmm...if you'd like, I'll open another post to go into Flavius Josephus.

A: I don't want to be guilty of thread hijacking, which I know we're cool about here but still, it's a dry subject to many.

B: I have a problem on this site where if a thread goes past a certain length my computer becomes incapable of loading the thread without occassional freezes (thus needing a reboot), and this one is starting to reach that critical "freeze" length.

----
Shoot, I started typing up my explanations (biblically) for why there is actually NOT a hell in the fire and brimstone sense, but it is rather long. So I think I'm going to move it to my journal for those who are interested.

[addict3]

That is interesting, in your opinion has his entire work been corrupted? I am curious to know where you have learned this information, as his writings are still being used by some theologians as a teaching reference. Have these changes been in recent publishing’s or are all of his writings compromised? Was his original work incorrect?
Is it not possible that there is additional or alternate evidence of Christ outside of the Bible?

I agree with your explanation of Cain and Abel, and Gods warning. I would really be interested in a source for further research on Josephus.

Earlier, in response to flmagi’s original question, you stated you do not believe in Hell, would you please take a moment to elaborate? I am curious. You seem to have a good grasp on most things you post about; I just don’t understand that one.

[outotown]

Good thoughts Baron, you are suprizing me all the time one post I wonder if you are an agnostic the next I wonder if you are a Bible Scolour 9 As you just noticed I cant spell Baron you are an asset to the forum and sometimes just an A** LOL you know im kidding with you tell your wife you want to get NECKED now that you know the diff.

[BaronMunchausen]

Mate, I hate to tell you but Flavius Josephus has been shown to have been corrupted by later translators with passages that were clearly added in or changed by the translator who had a bias and an agenda (providing alternate evidence of Christ outside the bible).
--------------
On one level Cain and Abel are really templates for examples of the type of worship that is offered to God and what is considered acceptable and not acceptable.

Abel signifies Vanity, Cain Wrath and Selfishness. Abel finally makes a sincere sacrifice  which is why his is accepted.

However, the trial of Cain is very specific;

It is for GOD to pass judgement on people, not people to do so. This is why he punishes Cain yet marks him and states that anyone who kills him will face a punishment that is seven fold (the mark is actually a protection... and a warning).

The message here is clear; do not presume to interfere in areas of the law which are God's domain, EVEN IF OTHERS ARE BREAKING IT. that is between God and the individual.

[teko]

Well, the bible states that God created Adam and Eve first, How do we know he did not create others? Just a thought!

[addict3]

I would have to agree with outotown on the History channels interpretation of most topics  regarding the Bible, in my opinion it has been skewed to promote controversy, and is inaccurate.

There is a lot of thought on where the sons of Adam came to find wives. One thought that has not been mentioned here is the fallen angels......This could account for some inhabitants of the earth however, since Noah was the only pure bloodline left prior to the flood, there would seem to be another explanation.

One book that I personally have found to be helpful, and is used by some theologians and scalars is titled: "The complete works of Josephus".

Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.) was a historian and his writings shed some light on many things in the Old Testament and part of the New Testament. I have found it to be a hard read at times, but does give food for thought.

If God would put a tree on this earth that would give us enlightenment and one that would give us never ending life, should we not consider the possibility that the minds given us do not compare to his mind? This is one thought that is foremost in my mind as I try to understand some things in the Bible.

Additionally, consideration should be given to the Apocrypha, the ancient writings or books that some believe were not included in the translation of the Bible. There could be answers to many questions we have in these books.

I do believe everything in the Bible, I just don’t know that I am able to interpret it all correctly.

[Burrpatch]

  It has been calculated, by conservative estimates, that the population of the
earth by the time Cain died could have been as many as a 120,000.  As stated above, Cain probably married his sister, or the daughter of his brother Seth. (his niece)  “Wait a minute,” you say!  “That means that God condoned incest, right?”  

No.  Cain or Seth married his sister.  Incest is sex between close relatives outside of
marriage.  Now it is true that later, under the Mosaic Law, marriage between close relatives was forbidden because of increasing genetic problems.  But in the beginning this was not a problem.  So the fact that Cain married his sister or niece, and Seth did the same, doesn’t mean that God condoned incest.  Incest has always been a sin.  This was not incest, this was marriage.

As for your second "Question", There is NO such mention of Lillith being the first or any other wife of Adam in the Bible. Have you read Isaiah 34:14 ? There isn't even a mention in my Bible (K.J.V.) of a Lillith in Isaiah 34:14.  Although I've read the name was referenced in other translations and refer her as a demon of the night and a killer of children. "The History Channel" is not the word of God. Although lately it seems they think they are. lol !!

I am well aware of the "Jewish Folklore" that this legend came from. It is called  "The Alphabet of Ben Sirah". Since I do not wish to write a paper on the various texts and fables that this writing was drawn from, I would also recommend that you go here for more info : http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1513/whats-the-story-on-lilith-adams-first-wife      -----   Or Goggle the subject yourself and pick your poison.

~ Burr

[outotown]

I have watched some of the shows of the bible on the history channle, DONT DO IT, they are completely wacked. If your read thur the Old testament marrying having  brothers, children was very common, so why is it wrong now, would you want to marry your nephew or frist cousin and have the chance of the baby being born with birth defects. Back then the blood line had not been screwed up with some of the things that it is with now.
DONT WATCH HISTORY CHANNLE SHOW ON THE BIBLE.

[joycekatherine]

In order to marry a niece, a sister would have had to given birth to a girl by a union with a brother...otherwise where did this niece come from??  God must have intended this to happen, so why is it now looked upon as incest??  Watched a show recently on the history channel and it was said that Adam originally had a wife named Lillith, whom God made of the same dust as Adam, as an equal, Adam being a dominant male would not accept the fact that Lilith (perhaps the first feminist on earth) was his equal and she refused to be anything less, supposedly she left the garden and God sent three angels to make her return to Adam, she refused...because Adam was not pleased with her, God then made Eve from the rib of Adam, so that she could not claim equality!  (sounds like a typical male fantasy doesn't it) And women have been fighting for equality ever since...
my questions...
1) was incest condoned by God?
2) did Adam have a mate named Lilith before Eve
3) why would God make another mate for Adam, thereby, condoning male dominance,
    when we are all supposed to be God's children created and loved equally??

I do believe in God, but, I'm not so sure I believe in everything the bible says...after all, the bible was written by men and men have notoriously been known to slant things
to the male perspective...did you ever wonder why nothing from the bible was written by women??  Not even Mary??  Or Mary Magdalene, said to be Jesus' most devoted disciple,  both very important women in Jesus' life and some have said that MM and Jesus may have even been married or at the very least lovers...

Would love to hear any thoughts about all of this...check Isaiah 34:14 for a reference about Lilith

[BaronMunchausen]

Hey, Hindus believe that since the soul can't be harmed abortion is okay (it will simply go into another fetus).

Reincarnation: the chance to go ahead and screw it up all over again!!! YAAAAAY!!!! :-)

[HelpinUtah]

Oh, I'm so thankful we were each able to share what we feel, believe without being put down or squashed! :)  

[HelpinUtah]

I agree that your belief would be based on whether it was the original sin that you gauge by - for me, since I believe Jesus atoned for our sins, he took the original sin away from us and so I believe we are born with a clean slate and stand blameless before God until the age of accountability and that is different for each person based on their religious beliefs or their own feelings of what's right and wrong.  

This is so complex because there are so many different beliefs out there.  And, I personally believe we should respect each other's beliefs not matter whether our beliefs differ.  I do, however, feel we have a right to share our beliefs without ridicule.  

This has been an enlightening post!

[BaronMunchausen]

No, I do not believe in hell.

No, I do not believe in a grading system when we die (although I like the conept. Karma, Baby!)

The last question is complicated and depends entirely on which theological philosophy you (or your religion) believes in. If you follow the doctrine of original sin then  (unbaptised) babies do NOT go to heaven if aborted.

If you believe in the "clean slate" concept (born with a clean slate, but you get a mark for each good and evil action; they are tallied at death).

Then a fetus would have a blank slate and cannot be judged (this was the original argument for Limbo/Gehenna, I believe).

Gods, I could go on and on. I just love this kind of stuff. :->

[Burrpatch]

One of the scriptures cited that Adam became father to "sons and daughters."(Genesis 5:4). It is a common misconception that the Bible teaches that Adam and Eve only had two children, Cain and Abel. But the Bible also mentions by name a third son, Seth, and an untold number of other "sons and daughters." It is reasonable that Cain would have married one of his sisters or possibly a niece. Keep in mind that as we read the account in Genesis, it is not necessarily in chronological order, and a few verses sometimes cover decades or even hundreds of years. So some of Adam's daughters or granddaughters could easily have been old enough to marry Cain by the time he was banished.

Adam, Eve, Seth, Cain and Abel were the first few, but not the only ones. Gen, 5:4 reads, "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years and and he begat sons and daughters."

Cain married his sister or niece, as did a number of people for generations to come. At this early state of humanity it was not a problem for close family relations to marry and have children, not only because there was no other option, literally, but also because the human race was new, and the bloodline was so pure, there was no worry like today that close relations having children would result in birth defects.

[lonewolf07]

I think I have a partial answer to that.  Abel had no children because Cain killed him.  Cain had a son named Seth but I can't remember the name of the mother.  It would seem likely that the mother might have been Seth's sister.  Adam's father was God.  In another version of Genesis, God was the father of both Adam and Eve - depends whether you read  Genesis 1 or 2.

I THINK  = )