PLEASE, PLEASE HELP

[TramHell]

I haven't received any recent responses to my other post, and I am totally freaking out.  I know that I really screwed up by jumping from Ultram to Suboxone, but that is where I am right now and I can't go back.  The Suboxone is helping me sleep, and taking the edge off a little bit, but I am really scared about the Serotonin.  I can't walk more than 10 feet without falling over.  I am getting brain zaps every 30 seconds.  I can't stop crying for no reason, and I am having depressed feelings I wouldn't normally have.  It is really scaring me.  I don't want to have a seizure and die from this.  What can I do to get some Serotonin back into my brain????   Please help!!!!!!  I only have 6 Ultram left, will a few of those help to ease these feelings at all?  I don't have the luxury of laying in bed all day, and I feel like I am dying.  Will anything give me the Serotonin I need right away?

[TramHell]

Well, the good news is that tonight felt leaps and bounds better than the day before.  Like I said earlier, the brain zaps are getting few and far between, so that is good.  Tonight I also didn't feel that hopeless feeling I had before, where I was crying at the thought of everything.  I read a lot about Serotonin, and my girlfriend works for a Social Service organization, so she is looking into free clinics and doctors for me tomorrow.  Hopefully I will get some good info on a new doctor!

[TramHell]

Okay, I understand now!  I always assumed that SSRI's gave you artificial Serotonin.  Had no idea they facilitate natural production in the brain.  I will definitelly go this route, I just need to find a new doctor and then hopefully an SSRI won't be that expensive without insurance???  I think they are, so that might be difficult.

[worried878]

I am sorry..i thot this thread was tramhell..apologize...but still think sub is way stronger narc wise than trams.
SSRI...seratonin re-uptake inhibitor
The drugs leave more of the neirotransmtter free in the brain cos it blocks the re-absorption of seratonin
the most common ADs are ssri's...lexapro, paxil, zoloft, celexa..tons more
Wellbutrin is more of a dopaine enhancer...right now since u jumped off the trams...an ssri may help cos if trams made u feel "good" it is most likely u needed seratonin
Narcotic users//pure narcs, not trams..often appeal to the dopamine receptors
It wouldnt be a bad idea to talk to ur dr bout taking em for a few months at least to see how they do u....takes 2 weeks to get going in ur system to where u feel a big change but the seratonin replacemt would be there so u wouldnt need to worry bout suddenly taking away the source

talk to ur dr..i can tell u want this...u can do this..support helps tons

[avisg]

when you went from 20 pill to 0 a day you serotonin level plummeted your body went into shock .SSRI's dont give you artificial serotonin they stimulate the part of the  brain that produces seriation on it own when you take 20 pills a day you are over stimulating your brain so its making more and more . So starting a low dose ssri will stimulate that part again but not over stimulate it with time at a normal level your body will produce it on its own that when you taper of the ssri . I hope this help explain it a bit better

[TramHell]

So what exactly will the SSRI do?  I always thought it was just an artificial way to get Serotonin, and that it would be the same thing as Tramadol, where it stops your body from producing it naturally.  How would I be fine after going on an SSRI and then tapering off?  Wouldn't that just leave my Serotonin depleted again like it is now?  I'm sorry I'm not trying to be difficult, just dumb it down for me, lol!

[avisg]

the amount of time you have to be on it differs from person to person .I dont think you need the sub you are going to need the anti depressant .like i said you need to see a doctor and start on a low dose .you will get evened back out then you will be able to slowly taper of the ssri and be fine .

[TramHell]

Worried:  you got me confused with Tramahater.  He/she was taking 15 a day, I was taking 20.  I only started Sub the first day at 8mgs total.  The second day I took 4mgs total, and the 3rd day I only took one dose of 2mgs.  I went into it thinking it would be the same dosing as any other opiate, but I was wrong and I realize that.  So I have taken as little as possible, and may not even need it anymore at all.  I woke up feeling much better today, and the brain zaps are definitely less frequent.  I would say they went from every minute or so to every 20 minutes.  If I had known that the worst part of Tram withdrawal is the Serotonin depletion, and not the opiate withdrawal, I would have never gone the Sub route.  So now I am stuck without any Serotonin, and I am really nervous to get on an SSRI.  Wouldn't that be just as difficult to come off of when it is time?

Tramahater:  you said you needed an AD.  How long were you on it for?  And how was it coming off, if you have come off of it?

[avisg]

its about 20 a day

[worried878]

1000 mgs?
15 trams would be 750 mgs///high dose..were they 50 mg tabs or 200 mg time released capsules?
I am guessing they were not time relased cos that would 3000 mgs a day?

[worried878]

Tram is not very strong narcotic wise..it is the ad qulaity that is dangerous
I would again talk to me dr but 8mg of sub per day is high...if u r on too much sub u will nod out and have no nrg....if u r on the right dose u should feel normal...altho tram in not a suboxone indication....but the narcotic quality of the sub is way more powerful than the tram dose u were on
at 100 mgs of lortba/hydro which is a much stronger narcotic than tramadol..2 mgs of su8b was more than enuf for me to even get a jolt from it//liked it better than hydro so didnt use it to stop with.
be safe..dont dig a deeper hole trying to get outta the whole u r in...tapering is hard for most of us...I am not sure of the seratonin sub replaces for tram wd..I do know all narcotics increase seratonin levels/mostly dopamine levels tho where as tram increases seratonin levels much more than other narcs do...sub is a narcotic so it is treated as a narcotic for purp-oses like NT/endorphin production...
LESS is better with sub....ask ur dr if u can lower ur dose?  probably into 25% or less of what u r taking..but check with him...

[LeaAnn807]

I had to end up being put on an AD after I stopped the tram.  I think that is pretty common.  I felt pretty rough, depression wise, until that kicked in.  I was on 15 tramadol a day and went cold turkey with absolutely no taper.  I don't recommend that, btw.  It was brutal.  

This is the reason that coming off tram is so much harder than "regular" opiates.  It's opiate withdrawal with a shot of seratonin depletion!  : )  It pisses your brain off!

[vicki595]

Worried~  She was on 1000mgs of tram per day. I don't know for how long. She started Suboxone on the 24th(?dose) and took the last tram 12 hours before that.

V.

[worried878]

How long have u been off the trams?  How many did u take daily and for how long?

[vicki595]

Dav~   "Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitor".   SSRI's are antidepressants.

Tram~  This WILL end.  You might want to research this. It's disconuation syndrome and should be well documented.  You were on a pretty high daily dose of tramadol.

You really can't take anything for it but you can get your dopamine going.  Exercise does that,B vitamins,green vegetables,protein and apples,and bananas.  Time is your friend here.  But,if you're not feeling better in 2 weeks you need to get with a (new) doctor.  It's never good to stop SSRI's abruptly,as you've found out.

Good luck...I know this is a drag~

Vicki

[Dav125]

What is SSRI if I may ask?. I'm not familar with alot of letter designations I see in here from time to time

[TramHell]

I woke up feeling a lot better, but the true test is always getting up and doing things, so I'll know more later.  I guess I just want to hear that this hell will eventually end, but yesterday it just seemed like I would be that way forever (crying and depressed and such).  Avis, how long did your withdrawal last?  Like I said, I can handle the opiate-like withdrawal, it is the Serotonin that's killing me.  How long does it take for it to return to normal?  I think if I knew yesterday that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, I would have tried to calm down a little.  It is just so hard to see anything but darkness while you are in it.  Is there any natural supplement that I can take to get my body making it's own Serotonin again?  I usually don't like amino acids because they NEVER seem to do anything except make me sick.  But I would rather try something like that before going on an SSRI.  Just an idea...

[TramHell]

Thanks everyone.  Avis, I only filled my Sub script for 10 8mg pills so far, and I took 2 doses of 4mgs yesterday, and 2 doses of 2mgs so far today.  I wasn't understanding what you meant by my Serotonin needing to come down first.  I was thinking, why would I want it to stay down when that is what's making me feel like crap.  But now I get it that too much Serotonin would be worse.  So this is pretty much my 66th hour with no Tram, and I am surely feeling the Serotonin depletion.  My sub "doctor" has me on the short term plan, so that is good... it at least is helping me with sleep and such.  I guess I just have to sweat out this Serotonin thing for a few more days.  I just don't know how I'm going to afford another doctor's visit and an SSRI.

[avisg]

I don't know there have been so few that have gone from tram to sub because normally doctors wont use sub for tram .I wish I new .How much of the sub are you taking .You were on 1000 mg a day so that alot of serotonin .You don't want to end up with serotonin syndrome .So I would ask your doctor at the end of the week ( give your body some time for you serotonin level to drop ) Then talk to him about a low dose ssri antiderpessant .You want to go slow ok . You do need to build your level back up but you want it to go down first so its not dangerous I know this is hard I cried for days but you  can do this .I would also get off the sub as fast as you can you dont want to trade one problem in for another .

[LeaAnn807]

No clue about this!  You need to go to the ER if you are really sick.  You have gone back and forth from one med to another, and if your doc isn't helping you then you need to see another one.  Since it's Sunday, I would go to the ER.  Don't go back on the tram now.  Get a professional opinion, ok?

[TramHell]

I have a Sub doctor, but he does not speak english and he had told me I would be fine stopping 1000 mgs of Tram a day cold turkey.  So he is NO HELP.  I know you guys are not doctors, and I already know everything you are telling me.  I was just asking if anyone has suggestions on how to get some Serotonin into my body, that's all.  Avis, you came closest by knowing that Sub and Tram can be taken together.  But I still don't know if I can go from Tram to Sub without waiting 24 hours or whatever.  

[avisg]

OK for some reason the posts are not bumping up to the top go down about 7 posts I gave you some more info there .you will be ok hang in there :)
avis

[vicki595]

Hi~  Sorry,this is too complicated for me at this point. I would be so wrong to tell you anything. So,you need to go to the ER and tell them the truth or call your doctor. Did you get the sub from a doctor? If so ,call him now. Okay?

I'm going to find your other post...

Vicki

[avisg]

You have lots of posts under your other thread ..YOU have to see a doctor ..How many trams were you taking a day .you may have to much seration in your system dump thye trams you very easly can stop the sub if you have only taken it for a few days . Do you have a sub doctor ? I will bump up your other thread so you can find it ok hang in there .

[Cantdothisanymore]

I am sure someone will be here to help soon. i am only on day 9 of vicodin withdrawl so I dont know your doc. good luck to you. i will be here for support if you need me. wish i could help. there are great great people here. hang in there - i know somone will respond soon