PLEASE HELP, EITHER TAPER OR COLD TURKEY?

[Austin2008]

Hi There.... I am back again..... This time hopefully for good...  A little background on me.. I am 32 and have been taking Vicoden ES 7.5/750 for 8 years, I have been taking close to 20 a day for the majority of that time...  The closest I have come to detox/withdrawl is when a script would be running out and I would have to reduce my intake for a few days.... I have never gone through withdrawl, notonce, I have somehow always managed to get what I needed to feed that habit.  The sad part is I never bought them on the street???  

Anyhow, I will not be getting them filled anymore, without going in to too much detail I have what I have left and I need to find a way to use them as either a Taper or flush them and go CT...  I have a few questions that I am wondering if you guys who seem to be so so helpful might be able to answer for me so that I can get through this....

I want to be clean, I have to be clean, I am too old for this s**t and I need to enjoy my life..... Here is the kicker, no one in my life knows about this....!!!!  No one even suspects it... Or if they do they are not talking!!

My Questions: (Keep in mind, I have to work, on the phone in sales thru this, maybe I can take a day off but, that is it)

1.) I have 30 Vicoden ES left and 7 Darvocet and a rx for 20 xanax .50mg  Is that enough to taper?

2.) If I flush all that and go Cold Turkey, Given the time and the amount I have taken, how long should the physical WD be if I just go cold turkey, and can I go to work while in that kind of a WD?

3.) What does Withdrawl even feel like?  I hear a lot of people say a bad flu but, honestly I have not had more then a mild cold in years.....

4.) I know the cravings will be horrible but, I am extremely strong willed and hope to be able to give the cravings the fight of their life, and as far as not being able to sleep I think I can live with that and I don't sleep much anyway.... My BIGGEST fear and reason I have never attempted to quit no matter how bad I wanted off this horrible poison is Withdrawl, I fear the un known so I guess if you guys could in detail tell me what I am in for maybe I can go into it a little prepared and be able to fight it harder if that makes sense...

I also want to say that my addiction started from a car accident in which I got Carpal Tunnel, It is not that bad and I definatley used the drugs to feed an addiction rather then to help with physical pain.  I have read people say that whatever pain you took the pills for intensifies when quitting but, since I really don't suffer from chronic pain what do I expect??

ANY AND ALL ADVISE IS MORE THEN WELCOMED,  I just need to know what to do and how to so it and what to expect and for how long, I am so scared but, yet so ready to do this.....

Thank you all so much in advance for your help....

T

[Austin2008]

THANK YOU!!!!  Please email me if you can!!  I am hanging in there, today is definately worse then yesterday but, almost everything I feel is in the neck up!!  Foggy head and something going on in my throat and sneezing....

My hands are a bit clammy and I do have a stomach ache but, If this is what I have to deal with today then so be it, I can't say enough that I wish this was the worst of it!!!  Maybe I can make myself believe that and somehow it will be?????

OK, did the "out to breakfast" part now I just have to play tennis with him and sit by the pool........

[road2recovery]

You are doing great!!!!  have a great day!

[Austin2008]

Thank you all.... I did OK yesterday....... I made it through work and even had a few laughs there which was nice.......Today I actually have a planned day off with my husband that I totally forgot about.. I am down to the quarter dose every 3-4 hours of Darvocet so we shall see how this works out... Thankfully he wants to go to breakfast, play tennis and hang by the pool today so I think I will be able to do that...

I am noticing some wierd things though....... Sneezing, which you guys all told me about, what is funny is that my strange dog thinks when a person sneezes they are playing with them and he gets all wound up so with my sneezing like crazy he thinks he is in heaven.....

I am also cold..... not cold sweats or chills but, just think the temp. in my house is cold... I think all the years on vicodin made me hot and now I am realizing why everyone complained that my house is always freezing...

I def. have a stomachache but, nothing I cant handle. atleast not yet while I am home, I am going to wait as long as possible to take the Immodium because I want to let as much get out of me as possible if you know what I mean....lol

OK, it is early and I am sure most of you are sleeping still, I am actually going to try to go back to sleep but, wanted to give a big ole' thank you for everything and I wil be on all day checking in...

I hope you all are having a great night and day!!

Love,
Tracy

[road2recovery]

You have gotten some great advice...I know you can do this...Stay strong, and just into it knowing you will beat it...
hugs
r2r

My   (((((((((((  LISA))))))))))))))))   so nice to see you post...I miss you!!!!!
hugs

[liscamdave]

Well, I can see I got to this  a little too late. Anyway, you can only be the person who defines your detox Austin. Only you will figure out what is right for you. Everyone is different and everyone has different symptoms and their w.d takes a certain amount of time. Unfortunately we can't give you specifics. But we can each tell you our own experiences.

If you need some help/advise, I am more then willing to do so, just let me know. You can pm me anytime..

Lisa

[Austin2008]

Lil and Casey... You guys are the best!!!!  I never even thought about the Tylenol issue, I am going to grab some at lunch time, I am hanging in there right now, I am at work (I hope to god they don't check my internet) I am doing some work, I use the word some loosely, but, to be here in my seat is all I need to do.  Yes I need to be on the phone to sell to = money but, I also need to show my face in the office.  Considering the industry I work in, mortgages and how many loan officers are out on the street without a job it is very hard to find a job in a good reputable place and I have that so I don't want to loose it over this.  I also know that with or without the vic's I am really good at what I do for a living and I help people get houses or stay in their house without ripping them off and that makes me feel good esp. at times like these.....  

I can say that I have definately felt better then I do today but, not all that bad, my legs are achy but, that may also be the too high heels...!!!!  My head is def. fuzzy and my stomach is queesy but, I am drinking water and took Motrin and have taken the 2 Darvocet, broken up in half..  Other then that I actually feel ok... I can't say enough that if this was the worst of it, I would really be lucky!!!

Casey- Congrats on 6 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Keep going!!!

[Caseyof99]

Lily has a great point. People seem to forget that when they are addicted to the vikes or tabs that their body is also addicted to the Tylenol as well. Plus any little comfort is better than no little comfort. Just have to watch it tho because tylenol is worse on your liver and kidneys than the codeine. Taking the tylenol will really help with the minor pains and a lil discomfort. Immodium is a must if you are going to be away from the comfort of your own bathroom! Might as well not be embarrassed as well as feel sick. 6th day here w/o anything and i hope that today will be as good as yesterday. Yesterday i felt like i had never had a problem until i tried to go to sleep. Tylenol pm or some other form of mild sleeping pill would have done me right. Keep your mind busy at work today and itll be over before you know it. Music is the key factor in staying sane. Never really needed w/d's to know that though. Good luck and stay Strong.

[Lily700]

Just wanted to let you know that I am praying for you today.  Remember things like pepto bismol, immodium, zantac, ibuprofen, tylenol.  Also keep in mind that if you were taking 20 per day, that is a lot of tylenol.  Continue to take the max dose of tylenol for a while, 2 every 4-5 hours, no more than 8 in 24 hours.  It will help so much.  Pepto is great for nausea, immodium for diarreah, ibuprofen for aches and pains ON TOP of the tylenol.  Use these over the counter remedies to find a nice balance you can be as comfortable as possible with.  Ply music!  Really-it helps a lot.  Stay strong and you will pull through this.  NO FEAR!  Fear is the opposite of faith, and you have nothing to fear.  You are saving your body and mind.  You are doing the best thing, the right thing.  You will have your life and your joy back soon.  Love and Peace, Lily

[Austin2008]

Hi There....

What a welcomed surprise to log on this morning and see all of your wonderful thoughts and comments for me..... So today is day 3 of the taper, I just feel a little pukey and really really tired.... I just showered and should be getting ready for work but, I feel like crawling back to bed??  Sound normal?  I actually might just go back to sleep for an hour and see if I can get up and get moving... Wouldn't it be great if this was the worst of it??  Who am I fooling, I know it is probably not even the beginning... But, I can tell you all this... I have the WANT and The NEED to do this..... so I am taking it day by day.... Last night at 6pm was my last dose of Vicodin, so it is officially 14 hours since I have taken any.. Amazingly by this time on a Monday morning I would have taken 6 by now???  So I guess that is progress?  I really do feel OK, just tired but, I think I can fight my way through that for today...  I plan to take 1/4 to 1/2 a Darvocet at a time spread apart and hopefully that will get me thru the day....  I will do my very best to get on throughout the day and give updates and maybe hear all the wonderful and motivating things that you all have to say, I know you all know this but, boy does it help to talk to you all.....

Thank you so much,

With my love and gratitdue,

Traci

[Caseyof99]

Alot of the people are focusing on the withdrawl symptoms and not on the mindset you need to be in. Just knowing that you are finished with these pills are more comfort from anything you'll go thru. Granted I'm only on day 5 without lortab but i know that since im serious about quitting that my w/d arent as bad as they have been in the past. Dont let all these w/d symptoms listed scare you in or out of anything. Your will to be through with them should out-weigh being sick for a week. Im not the type to Say NA or AA is the way we have to go because of the way they treat their problems. Someone who's been clean for 45 years is still an addict? prolly not. But at he same time im not knockin the system they use because i know people who have made it work. Stay firm with your decision to be through with them. Maybe your doctor cuttin you off will be the best thing that has ever happened to you. There is one thing that i know for sure that pertains to everyone: It will get better and you will love yourself more for it.

[Lily700]

Lily here.  You should be on day 3 of your taper now.  You may be watching the clock, but it should be bearable today as you will be putting 60 mg into your blood stream.  Be sure to take them every 4 hours, but no more than 6.  If you time it right, you can take your last one at bedtime with a xanax and get a little sleep. .Tomorrow will be basically like today, but you will use 2 of the darcocets in place of the vicodins.  Keep busy and try not to think about it.  I am praying for you this day.  You are strong and you can do this!  God is with you .  I have a sense that you let your faith life go while you were using the vikes - they were your demi-gods perhaps.  Now He can come back into your life as you learn to live life on life's terms.  He has never left you and will be there to carry you now and always.  Love and Peace, Lily  

[roadrunner940]

what do u think about decreasing your dose by 25 percent the first week then another 25 percent the 2nd week and the same fot the 3 and 4th week. also if you can do the b vitamins and provigil for energy.for sleep u can use xanax or tylenol pm. exercise by walking 15-30 minutes a day for endorphins. for muscle pain you can use motin or zanaflex which is a prescription that u dhould be able to get from your dr. if u truly have chronic back pain. if not then ibuprofen or motrin works well.also, the l tyrosine 500mg for energy. depression exercise will help. if you do this i would think the anxiety and diccomfort of any withdrawal would be minimized so you can at least get thru this difficult time without going cold turkey. what do u think?

[Lily700]

Hi, it's Lily.  The point of the taper I gave you is to keep smaller amounts in your blood stream and stretch that out so that your body can get used to it.  Try and stay on the actual schedule as much as possible for the smoothest transition.  When you wake up, the 2 vikes will get you revved up that first few days so that you can deal with the lesser amount for the rest of the day.  As you go on, your tolerance will go down, but this will not be a painless process.  Believe me, it beats cold turkey sooooo much.  I wish you had more to do a slower taper, but it is what it is, and we must deal with what we have.  Use the xanax wisely as well to fill in the gaps, especially toward the end of the taper.  God Bless, Austin, I have been praying for you all day.  I do not know why, but I feel so connected to you.  Enjoy those babies.  They are a blessing right now!  Love, Lily

[Austin2008]

Good Morning!!!

Once again, Thank you all for your help, support, caring and love.....  Today I am on day two of the Taper that Lilly Suggested, Yesterday was a bit roungh but, I am sure it will get worse before it gets better, It is only 9am where I am and the cravings are ridiculous, and hard because I know I have those pills left so ofcoarse my head is telling me just to take them... I am trying my best to ignore that urge..  

My usual dosage at it's worst is always two pills at once, never more then two at once, and I take them 10 times a day???  How did I ever get to that I will never know but, all I can say is those days are over as far as I am concerned.... It is going to be hard for me to get on and post as much as I want and need to because it is the weekend and my husband is in and out all weekend... Also, I told my sister a month ago that she can leave her 3 and 5 year old with me for today and tonight and tomorrow until 10 pm... I am glad to have them as they should be a very well needed distraction... I also live in a townhome community with a pool so we will be taking them to the pool most of the day today and tomorrow and it is supposed to be beautiful out so I hope that helps... The real good thing is whenever the kids sleepover my husband does not drink!!!!  With them here, I have NO choice but, to deal with whatever I am feeling and ENJOY them being here.....

I started with the two Vics when I woke up at 6 am and nothing since, so I am just going to wait as long as I possibly can before taking the next one, not two at once.......

I will check in as much as possible... I do have a blackberry and the messages you all send me thru this board are sent to that but, I don't know how to respond on it but, to get your messages and read them all day while going through this is a true godsend!!!

I hope you all have a wonderful day....

Thank you again and I will def. keep you all posted,

Much Love,

Tracy

[broknbck]

You really don't have enough for a smooth taper, but cold turkey at that amount will be hell.

So the first thing is to get a grip on your fear. You can do this, many have and you do have some pills to work with.
The 1st day with no drugs suprisingly isn't as bad as #2 and #3, ect....Go the whole day with nothing and that will drop your tolerance faster. Maybe take the xanax that day. Just a couple at the most. If it gets to be a really rough day just always keep in mind that tomorrow you will be able to take some pills. Don't know how many you take at a time but try half of the usual and only one time for the day or twice if it is that bad. Keep up the every other day if you can or maybe 2 days of pills in between. Don't take the xanax on your pill days. save them for your off days.
I don't know- try this. When i would be running low, this is what i would do just to get through the week or weeks i had to. Each time you have a day with no pills and then you take them the next- make it a lower amount of course.

The idea is to try and stretch them out as long as possible for lighter withdrawl. You will be feeling crappy anyways but nothing like if it was cold turkey.

i weaned for 1 month and by the time i quit my withdrawl was next to nothing.
post here every day and everyone will give you help.

you may be missing some work, so maybe you threw your back out??? or something like that???

[Lily700]

It's Lily again.  I forgot to tell you tnat I read on here some time ago about a tea called organic nighty night.  You can buy it online and it is supposed to work wonders.  Also, take one day a a time.  If it is not time for a dose, try and get really busy and let the time fly on by.  It is going to feel like you are waking up from a very long dream where everything was sugar coated, but the sugar was so thick that you coudn't taste it anymore.  Gradually flavors of all kinds will fill your being, and life will be good, difficult, sweet, bittersweet, but it will be life - real life.  God Bless you and I will pray for you, Austin.  Lily

[Lily700]

This is Lily who gave you the taper plan.  It you started it today, it sounds like you are doing fine.  You probably will not feel very bad until you get under 40 milligrams per day, but should escape some of the really bad withdrawals be just dragging out the last darvocet quarters.  The xanax will also help a lot with the anxiety and with sleep.  I did a hydro taper with 20 and had been taking about 200 mg of percocet per day.  I finished the taper with my last 2 days of 2 quarters of a hydro a.m. and p.m.  Dragging it out will keep just enough in your system that you should be able to work through it.  When they are all gone or even before, you may feel a little weepy, but life will be real again.  The most beautiful thing was the music.  It touched me - all of it.  Play music and dance.  You are about to live again.  Lily

[mosaicsjo]

physically what you can expect from withdrawal..

-muscle cramps
-nausea
-diarrhea
-anxiety
-agitation/bad mood/grumpy
-cold sweats/hot sweats

and general flu like symptoms. the severity of your withdrawal depends on how fast you taper. since im assuming you work m-f, i'd recommend beginning WD on a thursday- that way you have a full 4 days before you have to go back to work.

immodium is good for diarrhea. vitamins are essential, as well as something for sleep. Try and sleep as much as you can through withdrawal, i'd like to recommend melatonin. valerian root is a slight sedative/sleep aid, and will help with the anxiety during withdrawal.  Drink tons of water, eat lots of GOOD food, take many hot baths and you will be good as new.

[Austin2008]

Hi.. Someone asked me if I was telling my wife about all this.. Well, I guess the screen name is a bit confusing, I am actually a girl..lol  But, no I am not telling my husband... My marriage is not all that great, we are coming up on our 4 year wedding anniversary and a total of 8 years toegther, anyone see the connection between me being on pills 8 years and with him the same mount of time?  Not that I blame him for my problems, at least not all of them but, he is no better then me except his drug of choice is alcohol..  He knows I get the Vicodin and he asks me to give him one or two at night, usually on the weekends and I do. He has made comments before that he thinks I take more then I let on but, I know for sure he would never think that I am  a true addict that takes up to 20 a day..  When I give him a hard time about his drinking, which he gets drunk every night, he says that he knows he drinks too much but, he is a professional and goes to work every day and the gym and only drinks at night, his rationale not mine...  I think he has a problem and I love him but, I have to work on me.  I do not think he will be any help or support with this.  He will twist it and turn it and use it to make me feel worse then I already do.   I would love to call my mom and ask to go to her house an have her take care of me through detox and tell her all about this but, my dad is dying of cancer and she is caring for him at home day and night, I just can't put this on her... She already knows my marriage *****...

We do not have children, I have had two miscarriages in the past year, wonder why??? Both times I found out I was pregnant I cut down to 5 pills a day and was tapering off but, lost the pregnancy and resumed my regular habit.

My plan and goal is to get off this ****, get my head straight, get the hell out of this marriage and get my life back.....

You are all so right about the fear of the withdrawl being the hardest part and I know I need to overcome it....  

I did OK today, I cut my usage in half and physically I feel fine but, mentally I keep telling myself the worst is yet to come, you aint seen nothing yet........

I guess I will just have to take it one day at a time......

One more question, I do take a prenatal vitamin (It makes your hair and nails grow) I know it is a pretty potent vitamin so I am wondering if I should be taking more vitamins then just the prenatal?

I will probably go out tomorrow and pick up the ingredients for the Thomas Recipe and start that and I also have decided that I will take it one day at a time and if I feel too sick to work then so be it, I either won't go to work or like Lawyerlady said I will use work as my distraction......

I want to thank you all again, and commend you all on whereever it is you are in your recovery, your advise is the bet I have ever gotten for anything in my life and I need it more then anything right now... As you know, talking about this is so healing and reassuring... I just dread the fact that when my husband is home I can't be on here or he will see and read it and he will make this all that much worse....

Thank You Thank You Thank You,,,,

Tracy

[lonetexan]

For me, the first time I quit, it was like the worst flu I ever had times about 4. Your legs will ache terribly, you will have cold sweats (which I thought were the worst in the beginning) after the cold sweats set in you will graduate to terrible anxiety. Don't expect ANY sleep for 4 days. That is what it was like for me when I went c/t in January. I think the taper program Lily wrote out for you would be the best way to go then hit it c/t. At least that way you have some of the stuff out of your blood and you will be used to a lower dose so perhaps the w/d will be lessened for you. I fell off the wagon and am ready to quit so I am going to take an extra day for Labor Day which will give me 4 days at home and those are the worst. Day 5 is the turning point at which you can go back to work and explain you condition as the remnants of the flu.

Time it right so your taper program ends as your 4 days off for labor Day begin. Actually you should take your last pills the morning of your last day at work and the w/d will start as the day continues. You will start to look bad to your co-workers as you progressively feel worse so you just tell them you might be coming down with the flu. So now in their eyes you have the flu and you use that excuse to buy your extra day after Labor Day. It is ashamed you can't get more than 1 day off because it would really help but with 4 days you will be through the worst of it. Look at the top right of this page and click on Health Pages and get the Thomas Recipe as it will help. Also look at the Amino Acid page. Perhaps a combination of those two might work better for you. The best piece of advice I can give you is that when your legs ache get in a tub of the hottest water you can stand. Believe me, it REALLY helps. You CAN do this... I did it once. Some of us here have gotten clean many times only to unfortunately slide back into the bottle. There is a Demon in that little bottle of pills and he wants to drag you to Hell. DO NOT let that happen. You have made a great first step in that you are now at the point that you WANT off the merry-go-round. So now, step off. Best of luck to you and know that we will all be here if you need to talk.

texan

[road2recovery]

Are you married? or have any children?  If so, are you going to be honest with your wife?
Since u said that you have never had the flu, then it will be hard to describe...But everyone can tell you about theirs, and that may help a bit..
For me the worst symtom , was RLS...I had it in my arms too..I took many many hot baths at night, because that is when they get really bad...second was sleep, that took the longest to me....Also, i had the sneezes, one after another...then a yawn...I know it doesn't go together....runny nose..I had the chills mostly, more then sweats...
PLEASE understand though, that if you worry about it too much, it will bring you down worst..IMO....Just tackle it, with the mindset of I will beat this CR AP!!!  And get my life back...
What are some of the things you will get OTC to help you???
It is very good that you are getting as much knowledge as you can...WE will all be here for you....
r2r

[Caseyof99]

ill have to agree with everyone in saying that the mind is the hardest part of any of this. You have that voice telling your that your breaking a habit and it really wants you to do anything to keep that habit. Being that I kept my addiction a secret as well as the decision to be rid of them has made it a little harder since i think that talkin about it with people does help me. Thank God for anonymous forums. The best thing about my decision is the feeling of pride. It had been so long since i have felt proud oif myself for anything so it helps a little with the mind.  So far tho the little tricks my mind has been playing on me are far worse than anything physical except for the lack of energy the lortabs gave me. I can only offer advise but i think im getting more than im offering so thank you all and hopefully we will all be done with this **** before we know it. At some point we are gunna look back and see how foolish we were with our reasoning when we were on pills.

[LawyerLady]

Hey there - I am on Day 4 of c/t withdrawals from Percs and Hydros!  I am an attorney in a huge corporation and also have a six month old baby girl.  To be honest and in my humble opinion, working and having to care for my daughter is probably what's given me the distraction to not fully focus on how bad I feel physically.  As you already know, the withdrawals are like a very severe case of the flu.  For me, the leg aches and nausea coupled with a very bad headache are the very worst symptoms.  Motrin helps me a lot with the leg cramps.  The sleeplessness is also a very bad symptom, but this doesn't come until around Day 4 or 5 (for me in any case).  Quite frankly:  this is my second time going c/t and the first time, I didn't feel anywhere close to normal until about Day 11 but with a taper, you could be different (as we all are).

Simply, my advice to you is to expect the worse, try not to let it engulf you and use the distraction of work not to focus fully on how bad you feel physically.  Try and listen to your favorite music and before you know it, you'll be singing along to it.  Like I said Austin, I am only on Day 4 and feel so much better already than I did yesterday.  The mind is a wonderful tool and you can trick it into thinking you can deal with this. . .it works for me in any case!  Going c/t (for the second time) was so scary for me and I was quite literally petrifed (moreso because I did know exactly what to expect). . .like I said, I expected the worse and it's not that bad!!  Yeah, it hurts and it's a horrible experience, but you'll survive it and when you get past Days 4 and 5, you'll just feel a little unwell. . .it's all uphill from there (or at least it was for me).  Oh, don't forget to soak as much as you can in the tub. . .it helps massively with the aches and pain and eat bananas (as they help with the leg pain).  Vitamins are priceless too.  I did a modified version of the Thomas Recipe but used Tylenol PM's instead of the benzos.

Good luck sunshine - you'll be in my prayers.  Any pain and hurt that withdrawals bring is so worth it once you get to the other side. . .stay strong, hang tough and remember, you have hope for a brighter, more wonderful life which you can actually LIVE  rather than watch pass by. . .

[Austin2008]

Thank you all SO SO SO much, you are truly wonderful...... I just ned you to stick with me and help me thru this, esp, work!!!  I am frightened but, I know it is the best thing for me and my famiy....   The way I got cut off by my doctor was so abbruptly that I wasn't able to save enough pills for a taper, which probably is a good thing as everytime I got a refill I told myself to use that refill to taper and never did... I can only work with what I have.... There is a huge part of me, the evil side, that is telling me to take all the Vicodin I have left over the next day or two and they start cold Turkey Sunday, but, I am fighting that thought.....  There is another side that says to just flush what I have and go cold turkey today but, again I am so afraid of the withdrawl that I think the best thing to do is take all of your advise and just try to take a few a day and then deal with the withdrawl and hope that the fast reductio will ease the withdrawl a little bit...


I do have one more question, everyone seems to describe the withdrawl as the same thing..."PURE HELL"   but, what I don't know is what does that entail? what does it actually feel like... I have gone for days taking less then normal for me amounts of Vicodin when I was running low between scripts but, more then anything I felt cravings as opposed to anything physical....I have the least experience with the physical withdrawl and that is what is scaring me the most...

The other thing is I have read that when you go through withdrawl for the first time that should be the easiest detox as opposed to the second, third, forth...etc....etc.... but, ni my case, and I know I need to feel the pain to learn, I am just wondering, since this is my first true detox will I not be getting the break if you will of the first time since I have been using for so long and so much??

Thank you again, you are all more wonderful then you know... I am just so sorry that you all have had to go through this but, grateful that you are such amazing people to care anough to help out a first timer......

T