Bipolar

[louiesoto]

I've been "best friends" with a man for 4 years.  1 year ago he was hired by a company and never went to the job.  He isolated himself and drank for almost 2 weeks.  He seemed to get it together (he hid his problem from me) and got another job in a city far away and did the same thing in a hotel room.  I helped him get home and get into a treatment
regimen - he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, started taking Antabuse, going to meetings, exercising, eating right,
and got another job in a far away city.  He was living a healthy existence for 7 months.  Now it seems he has done the same thing.  In the course of 1.5 years he has gotten 3 jobs and lost them.  I care about him but don't know how to proceed.  He has also been prescribed Depakote for the bipolar and it seems to be working.  

I want to change my number and pretend he doesn't exist but I can't.  I really know that he can't help it and needs a friend.  Am I the crazy one?!  Is this man disabled enough so that he can't work - what is your take on all of this?

[bernie40]

I'm not really sure what you are asking here, it sounds as if you want justification for why your friend can't work.  I can understand this to a point because unless you have BP it can be a difficult thing to get your head around - its hard enough when you are BP.

Yes BP can be disabling.  The alcohol is his way of self-medicating and is bad news.  You say the depakote is working - has he quit drinking now?  If he starts drinking again it could be either because he has developed an addiction or because the depakote is no longer working well enough and he is again self-medicating.

I personally haven't been able to work for the last 2 years.  That fact makes me feel c**p about myself.  Some people may never be able to work, others do manage.  It depends on so many factors.  Good medication and therapy, good routine, understanding bosses and most of all a great support system.  Even with all these there are times when we can suddenly switch again.

I would suggest doing some research into BP, there are shedloads on the web and if you go to the healthpage link at the top of this page you will find a list of some of them.  Educate yourself about the condition and then ask yourself if you are the kind of person who can be there unconditionally for your friend or not.  

I hope this doesn't sound blunt but I'm in a hurry as I have my psych appointment.

Feel free to ask any questions and we will do our best to answer them from our BP perspective.

Oh and welcome to the site.  :-)

[adel_ezz]

of course he can work. it's only a matter of time-not much- until he becomes stable by following the proper medication. if you feel obliged towards him then give him a hand because his case is not hopeless. on the contrary he can stand again and becomes very active. drinking is perhaps out of the misery he feels and disappointment in life. if you decide you want to help then you can read in the web about the disease we all have but many of us are very successful in their life careers. as bulldozer told you BP is disab;ling if not treated
good luck

[bernie40]

Sorry but I think its a little misleading to say that "its only a matter of time-not-much until he becomes stable".  It isn't that simple.  It can take a long time to find the right medication or cocktail medications - 2 years on and I may only have just found it.  Then I need to find if its the right one to enable me to get back to work.  So no it isn't "not much time" it can take one hell of a long time if ever (some people may never be able to work).

I'm sure from reading the many posts on here over the months it is apparent that even with medication a lot of us are still far from stable on a regular enough basis.  

I'm not trying to sound negative I am being realistic.  It can be hard in the workplace and with a mental health illness as well its even harder.

[adel_ezz]

sorry for being so optimistic or making it sound an easy task, but i was trying to encourage her to help the guy. Telling her that it's a tedious job that you may not be able to sustain may put her off instead of trying to provide help. I didn't tell her it's a matter of time until he gets cured but i said until he becomes stable.
Besides, the diagnoses are not known exactly whether BP1, 2 or cyclothemic etc...since she wants to help him then she can stick near him and ask the pdoc to experiment on some meds until they both find out the right cocktail. Incidentally some strike it right from the first trial. Meanwhile he is on depakote which gives weight gain and hair loss etc...it's one of the 3 mainstream med along with tegretol (not used in the USA for interactivity) and lithium. So it seems the pdoc is of a classical type. in all cases we don't know where she lives. In many countries like where i live egypt, pdocs recommend depakote right away. No lamictal no seroquel no abilify, so perhaps if she does a little of effort with the speliatists she can really help him. Usually - with all the respect to you - the patient is not usually told that his case is difficult because it may discourage him. Whereas there is another school of thought to tell him the worse, one can't for instance hide cancer from the patient because he will deteriorate quickly.

anyway i was just trying to help the lady, i.e. i had good intentions.
thanks ezz

[bernie40]

Hey ezz, I wasn't attacking you friend.  

There is nothing wrong with optimism if it is well placed.  I believe in putting down the facts which I believe I did - some people work some people can't, some people get stable quick some people don't and the majority of people will have set-backs.

I don't think you can just paint a rosy picture when someone has concerns, you can't brush the downside under the carpet.  This lady needs to know what she is potentially "letting herself in for".  How can she support her friend if she does not have as many facts as possible about the disorder?

My psych was upfront with me from day one and made it clear that getting the meds can be hit and miss.  She also made it clear that it could be some time before I was well enough to work again.  Yes this upset me at the time, however, it helped me because I then didn't have unrealistic expectations.  

Of course we all have different opinions and they are always welcome, your intentions are always good ezz, you are a sweet guy :-)  apologies if I offended you.

[therese83]

My friend (who has bipolar disorder) just gave up work.  Working is too much for her.  She does fine with temporary work but cannot make a commitment to full time resposibility.

She has finaly come to this conclusion after many years of suffering and trying to work

How is he as a friend?  that is the question, I wouldnt judge my friends on wether or not they could work, more on how they treated me and how I felt when with them.

That is just my thoughts.  I have had many friends who didnt work? It was not a problem.  If that is the only 'bad' thing as you see it he is doing then I think you are maybe, if i can say, being a bit too judging.
That is my opinion and i hope it helps.

[louiesoto]

I just found out that my friend has failed another attempt to work.  That's 3 times in 1 year.
Each time the search, interview, hiring and then isolating and drinking have happened the same way.  I have not been able to talk to my friend since yesterday - he's in detox.  He'll
call when he's coherent.  I don't know how I feel about continuing on with this relationship.
I care very much - has anyone had a similar experience?

[bernie40]

Have you read our responses following the original post?

The word failure is a pretty condemning judgement.  This man has BP, he is not well, he is self-medicating with alcohol (all of which I've already mentioned).  

His inability to stay in work is due to the aforementioned, he is not "failing", he is not a "failure", he is ill.

[therese83]

Your friend must be going through hell.
It can happen to anyone, one day you may also experience psychological problems.

When you talk to your friend please wish him well - not from you - from me.

[louiesoto]

Yes, I have read what you've said and am thankful.  I know he's sick and I WILL wish him
well.  I have been his unconditional friend for a very long time and supported him financially for most of that time.  I love and care for him - I just need some way to express what I'm going through SOMEWHERE!  I have supported him, tried to trust him, and
been on his side for a long time.  

I'm sure he's going through hell, I just want to understand and know what to do.  Right now
there is nothing until he calls me because of privacy issues.  I'm not insensitive to this
I'm just learning.

[bernie40]

I hear you.  Its difficult because we are coming from the BP side and not the other.  I know its hard for people to understand any kind of mental illness.

I can understand its very hard staying in a support role especially when it must seem as if, at times, he is not helping himself.  That is the trouble with BP, we don't control it.  We can learn as much as we can about trying to manage it and by sticking to our medications and listening to our psychiatrists.  The thing is sometimes it does still come and kick you when you aren't looking.

Your friend needs to get stable.  I read somewhere that a period of at least 12 months stable is needed before really considering returning to work.  Of course this doesn't mean he couldn't try part-time, non stressful work.  The flip-side to that is that if your used to being in a high stress, professional career it can be hard to settle for a "gentle" job.  Its all about finding the right balance.

I'd advise that you never use the word failure in front of your friend - even if he uses it himself you need to remind him that it isn't failure.  He obviously needs help with his alcohol issues and a good psychiatrist who can treat not just the BP but the addiction also.  Addiction and BP do tend to go hand in hand in the vast majority of cases.

I'm trying to think what it is that my friends and family do for me as a way of support.  I think the biggest thing is that they accept I have BP, they accept that my moods can swing from one extreme to another.  They don't chastise me when I've done something daft during a manic moment or tell me to "pull my socks up" when I'm so depressed that I can't face the day.  Unconditional love and support.  When I'm feeling so well that I apply for jobs they offer words of caution but ultimately support my decision.  If the job doesn't work out they don't say I told you so or shake their heads but say "there's always next time".

This is hard as I said.  Its not going to be smooth for him and nor for you.  I would strongly recommend getting a book about BP.  There is a post on the forum called "anyone know a good book", and there are some listed there.

This will be a big learning curve for you and a "learning on the job" so to speak.

Are you his main support?  Does he have family who you can talk to?

[BipolarBear75]

HI, I thought I would just add one more thing to what Bulldozer said. I think that the reason why he does the whole search, interview and getting the job only to end up shutting down is that he really thought he could do it...each time I am sure he thought that this time "he could do it". I have done this time and time again without the booze though. I usually work for awhile before I shut down... But that is his way of making the hurt and confusion go away. Trust me....he must "feel like a failure" he doesn't need to feel it or hear it from you.

The best thing to say is nothing.....let him talk when he is ready and let him pore it out if he wants or leak it out...whichever way he feels comfortable. And try not to give judgements, opinions or anything unless he asks for it and then handle it with sensitivity when he does please....he will appreciate it and when he is "back to good" he will remember what a good friend you were when he needed it.

[louiesoto]

In your last post you gave me the best insight.  He is on his way home in the next couple of days.  He left a long message and actually said he wasn't ready to talk just yet.  I understand that.  I will do what you said and listen. If you have any other insight
I would be glad to hear it.

[louiesoto]

In your last post you gave me the great insight.  He is on his way home in the next couple of days.  He left a long message and actually said he wasn't ready to talk just yet.  I understand that.  I will do what you said and listen. If you have any other insight
I would be glad to hear it.

Can you give me some idea about what might be going through his mind right now.

[Bear13]

He's probably feeling like "see, I screwed up again, I can't do anything right" sort of mode right now....  He's obviously in great distress, and probably doesn't want to talk about how he feeling because the emotions are still very raw to him....  the only thing you can do is be supportive and reach out to him and try to guide him into some sort of supervised care (doctor, therapy, etc).....  I feel for him, I've been there, done that... I've quit jobs because I felt like I screwed them up so bad, that I couldn't take it anymore.  It's a hard road...  Is he still under medical care?  If so, it sounds like his meds are not working and either need to be changed or adjusted.....

[Lizz67]

     I think one of the greatest gifts you can give to someone who is ill is to stay with them.  The choice whether to keep someone in your life who is ill (with anything), is a very important and difficult one.  Sometimes we need to attend to our own mental health first and we may decide a relationship is too damaging to our own condition.

     You sound like you are still ready to stay with your friend. I have lost a lot of people due to this illness and that has been a terrible thing.

     One time a friend told me she didn't stay in touch with me because she was afraid if she called I'd be in another "crisis."  I understood, but it hurt a great deal as at the time,

     I'm glad you're looking forward to your friend coming back.  He likely needs you very much.  Just be aware of how the relationship is affecting you;  if you see you're getting tired, watch yourself.  This could avoid your "all-or-nothing" perspective on this friendship.
You're very, very kind to offer your unconditinal support.

[louiesoto]

I love this man but this time has been particularly hard for me.  He was fired in a city far
away, taken to detox, returned to the hotel where he was living and began drinking again - he's been there 6 days.  I have talked with him every day - I know he's drinking and then he doesn't answer.  The hotel clerk is checking on him regularly but he can't do anything until my friend can't pay for the room.  During the course of our conversation he told me that he went off his Depakote.  I'm trying to take care of me but this is very difficult.  He says he's coming home today - we'll see.....then what?

Have any of you had similar experiences?  What do I do?

[bernie40]

Hi,  It sounds very much like the alcohol is the biggest issue here at the moment.  You know that if  he refuses to get help or refuses to try and stay dry then there is little you can do.  He has to want to do it for himself.  It is bad news that he has come off his depakote.  Suddenly stopping depakote can be very dangerous.

When he comes home let him talk first (if he will), try and remain patient even though you are probably feeling really frustrated and worried.  Try and reason with him gently that he needs to see a psychiatrist as soon as possible, he needs to be back on his medications and he needs to find good support to get him off the alcohol.

Will he let you come to see the Dr with him do you think?  At least then you can tell the Dr what you have seen just in case he is not being completely honest.

Good luck.

[louiesoto]

Yes, I already went with him - he has few secrets from me....we've already been down
this path but he has never been far away with money.  The hotel keeps letting him stay as
long as he pays for another night.......he's been drunk for 6 straight days now and the hotel knows it. At least they're checking on him. Can't somebody do something?

[cowgirlnerd]

Why is he at a hotel?  Is it the job thing?  Somewhere, I was thinking he was in the hospital....not sure.

Ok, here's my take- yes, we feel like a failure all on our own.  Validation of those feelings don't really help us.  What does help, however, is honesty.  Even though you don't need to be negative with him, you do have the right to be honest with him.  What drives me batty is when my friends treat me like a child and pat me on the head and say, "Everything is going to be fine..."  When I know they want to scream!!!  Even though it's really stressful to me, I like to hear the honesty, at times, of how it makes them feel.  BUT, you both have to be in a place that you can both hear the truth.  It sounds like he isn't stable enough right now.  My exhusband is really firm with me when I am going manic and let's me know how my moods affect him - and mainly because I am so mean-spirited when I am manic.  I can be very very cruel.  

The first thing you need to worry about - and it's not his work - is getting him stable.  And, I agree, he doesn't get the job because he wants to "fail" - he probably thinks he can really really do it this time.  Trust me - we have all done that.  We can hold it together for awhile (with me, my friends tell me my "holding it together" is shorter now than it used to be) and then we can't anymore.  It makes you feel like a HUGE loser.

Get him out of the hotel - into the hospital and get him stable.

BUT, you have the right to NOT be involved in his care if you aren't committed to it.  You should NOT feel guilty if you don't think you are able to help him with it and GOD FORBID - don't become his nurse made.   This is a decision you have to make yourself.

Good Luck!

Rach

[bernie40]

I think cowgirlnerd made a good point in her last paragraph - some very sound advice there.

I don't know if you can get him out of the hotel without his co-operation.  I don't know the laws in your country regarding mental health and patient rights etc.

Would he agree to come home if you went to get him - or would this not be feasible for you?

Have a look through your yellow pages to see if you can find an advice line which deals with mental health issues, they may be able to answer your questions regarding getting him home.

Good luck.

[louiesoto]

I talked to the hotel manager and she said that as long as he pays and he can talk to her
(he is so drunk and out of control) because of privacy issues she can't do anything.  She also told me that she knows something of AA and if he wants to kill himself, he will.  She said she would check on him and call me.  He doesn't know what he's doing - I know this because I really do know him.  He's in a crisis.  However, I'm not his wife, sister, mother or anything else so I guess my hands are tied.  I'm in Chicago, he's in Denver.  I have just about exhausted my finances helping him get well - now he slips and I'm hurting financially and my heart is breaking because I can't help.  Seriously, I know I'm the only friend he has
who loves him unconditionally.  I'm hurting and extremely frustrated.  I know, 1 day at a time.  For the time being, I'll just pray that he doesn't die before he comes to his senses
or runs out of money.

[cowgirlnerd]

It's my understanding that if a person is a danger to himself or others, a call to 911 will have them committed.  Of course, they will have a psych evaluation and if he is really good at masking his illness, he can get around a pdoc that has too much on his plate to deal with it.

Now the issue of if he wants to kill himself he will - yes and no.  If he has made the decision - it's hard to change a person's mind.  Most often, they are in good spirits when they have made the decision to end their life.  HOWEVER, if you can convince a person that is considering suicide that if they can wait just one more day - acknowledge that they have the right to do it - but to wait one more day to actually do it - and maybe they can find another answer - you might not have to deal with the loss like I do with my friend Darryl.  Suicide is harder on the survivors than the victim....trust me.  

Again, you are not responsible for another human - period.  My suggestion would be for you to contact his family - voice your concerns and see if they are open to helping him.  They might not be fully aware of how sick he is and maybe if they are avoiding it - your call might push them toward it.  I know a lot of times, people grow tired of the drama of a bipolar patient and just avoid it.  His family might be that way.  Don't feel like the lone ranger when he has family that should be stepping up to the plate to help.

You are in a tough spot - to say the least.  Just don't allow yourself to become consumed by it and let yourself become an unwitting victim of this "wonderful" disorder.  Just don't give up on him without talking to his family first.  After that, you have done all and more than expected of any friend to help him through his crisis.  

[bernie40]

I can't say anymore than cowgirlnerd, she has hit the nail on the head here.