filshie clip removal

[sarsax]

I am 30 yrs old, a mother of 3; ages 10, 3, and 18 months.  Six weeks after the birth of my third child I had a bilateral tubal occlusion with filshie clips done.  This was April of '09.  I started having pain immediately following the surgery.  It felt like my ovaries were going to burst all the time and that my tubes were being squeezed.   I had the filshie clips removed 10 days ago and in less than 24 hours I noticed a big difference.  I think my body was trying to fight the clips.  For the last 10 months or so I have been waking up with my whole body in pain.  It got worse and worse.  It was getting to be a struggle to get out of bed every day because of the achiness.  EVERY DAY I felt like I had been hit by a bus the day before.  My legs hurt, joints ached, and just felt terrible in general.  I also run about 4 miles a day.  I thought the achiness was either from running or just getting older.  Well the day after my surgery I woke up feeling perfectly fine.  It never even crossed my mind until then that those clips were causing my body to hurt.  As I said, I am ten days post op and have not felt the slightest bit achy since.  How weird is that?  Has anyone had any similar experiences with filshie clips?  Also, the doctor had to burn my tubes when he removed the clips to prevent bleeding.  I am wondering what are the chances that my tubes will heal themselves and I could get pregnant again?


This discussion is related to Pain with Filshie Clips.

[sbsmith]

Yes Yes and Yes!!  I had a tubal done in August of 2006 and started having mysterious pelvic, abdominal, rib/back pain that continued to worsen.  (I did not know that filshie clips were used in my tubal procedure). The mysterious pain went on for years...because the drs just could not figure out why I had pain they suggested that I have my gall bladder removed - which I did in Feb 2009 (even though I did not have stones and I passed every test/scan).  I continued to go downhill all of last year, and by November I was laying down at every chance.  I went to a number of drs who came up with all kids of ideas: they thought I had nerve pain "left over" from the gall bladder operation, or fibromyalgia, or depression, or IBS and I kept telling all of them NONE of those things "fit".  I finally found a dr who was willing to listen to me and was willing to do surgery to take a look around.  She took out the clips (which have PRONGS on each end, by the way!) and I no longer have pelvic pain or rib pain!! Those clips were rubbing on my abdominal wall and there is no doubt my body was NOT happy.  I would have never approved ANYTHING being left in me (knotting and cauterizing the tubes was plenty sufficient!)  I have lost a lot of faith in drs and healthcare in this process, not to mention thousands of dollars in co-pays to reach out of pocket maximums!  I was told that the filshie clips have not been in common use for more than 20 years!! No one on the Operating Room had ever seen them (except for the dr, who is over 50 years old). Had I been given a CHOICE or warned about the use of them, I might not have spend the last 4 years of my life struggling with pain and fatigue!  

[sarsax]

Wow, that is unbelievable.  I'm sorry you had to endure that kind of pain for so long.  Before I had the clips placed I THOUGHT I had done enough research.  However, if you google filshie clips it brings up sites that are advertising the product, so of course there is no negative info there.  I didn't know what to look for until I started experiencing the pain.  The doctors will tell you the risks of the surgery itself, but say NOTHING about the side effects from the actual product.  It's awful.  At my post op appt. I found out that the dr. not only burned my tubes, but burned them in THREE places on each side.  I did NOT want this. I have cried many hours since then. Before I was taken back for surgery I asked him if he could remove the clips and just leave my tubes to hopefully heal.  He said no, because they would bleed.  Was it really necessary to burn them 3 times??? I'm so upset that I made such a terrible mistake to begin with.  I asked him what my chances were of ever conceiving again and he said, "It would take an act of God for you to get pregnant."  Needless to say, that's what I'm praying for.  Grrrr....I could kick myself and the doctor in the you know what!!

[mcgubligins]

I have been fighting with my doctor to get my filshie clips put ever since thery were put in. I have beeen in agony and un able to carry on a normal day with my son because of the pain, thankfullyi won and after 13 months of pain the clips are out woo hoo. I was told that the tubes would simply be cut and tied i was never told they were going to leave a foreign body inside of, i am convinced that my body has been rejrcting them and that this where the problems started. Life is starting to get back to normal as the filshie clips came out in august this year and i wa lucky that the tubed didnt need to burnt, now i cant help thinking if i could get pregnant again ? it was the biggest mistake of my life getting sterilised

[sarsax]

Wow, good to hear you aren't in pain any longer.  They were definitely a problem for me.  Did your doctor tell you they just removed the clips and left the tubes alone?  I specifically asked my doc if he could leave the tubes alone, and he said, "No, I can't do that.  I have to burn them or else they will bleed."  However, when I went to the post op appt. and was informed they were burned 3 times on each side, he said he COULD have left them alone but didn't.  WHY would he do that???  Biggest mistake I've made as well.

[jmaeh]

I had the tubal done after the birth of my 4th in dec 09.  I was told that they would be cut and tied.  I would never have approved of the clip because I have reactions to metal.  I was in so much pain in the recovery room.  They had to give me additional meds my whole hospital stay.  The docs kept saying that I would feel better after two weeks, 3 months, 6 months.....etc.  No one admited that there were clips inside of me.  Finally, I suspected that something was up and I requested a copy of my operative report and there it was stating that they used filshie clips.  I have had constant pain on my right side, I'm bloated and have achiness and sore joints.  I am also really active and hoped that it was from running around with the kids.  I have talked to my doc about removing them and all she will do is remove both of my fallopian tubes.  That seems so excessive to me.  She said, "Theres no reason not to remove them, its not like you need them anymore!"  I think that if the doctors had been more forthcoming with information about what they had done then I would have made some different medical choices.  Now I have paid two thousand dollars in ultrasounds, ct scans, and blood tests only to find out that it is the clips that should never have been put in.  I am looking into having them removed but have to come up with the money as my insurance wont pay for the removal.  I am so angry with myself for making this choice.  If I had only listened to my gut then I wouldn't be in pain today.   All I wanted was to enjoy my kids and take pregnancy out of the equation.  But now I'm grumpy all the time and can't enjoy them becasue I am always in pain.  I also think that sterilisation should not be combined with birth because I now think of my daughters birthday as the day I made the biggest mistake of my life.  Best wishes to all of you ladies.  God Bless.

[igrioch]

I had the Filshie Clips put in 8/09 after giving birth to my daughter. I had requested that they just cut and burn but found out I had clips when I pulled my medical records after finding out that I was pregnant. After my surgery, I felt pain, like a knife stabbing my right ovary, but attributed it to healing and just having a baby. The pain continued throughout my pregnancy but the Dr told me it was likely the round muscles. This pain does not feel like muscle pain. It hurts sooo bad. Well, I just had my baby, and the pain has become even worse. I cannot even cough or stand up straight without pain. I feel so overwhelmed with this pain because I have a newborn and a 1 year old. I am happy to know that I am not the only one with this pain. I am going to talk to the dr to get these clips removed.

Plus, to make matters worse, I asked the hospital for the caliberation record of the applicator tool and was informed that they do not keep record of that. I asked for the applicator number and they told me that they do not document which tool is used in the procedures. I asked how they track when the tool needs to be sent in to be caliberated b/c it has to be done every 12 months or 100 procedures whichever is first and I was informed that they do not keep record. I am so frusterated. The whole applicator thing came up after my friend, who works at the hospital as a surgical sterilization tech, informed me that after one procedure, the applicator still had the clip in it. I was wondering if the applicator misfired and didn't place the clip correctly. I dont know but really upset about the whole thing.

[jmaeh]

You got pregnant after having filshie clips placed?????  Was it done laproscopically or during a c section? Mine was done during a c section so they would have had a visual that the clips were placed.  I met another lady whose clip opened up after the proceedure and was stabbing her.  They found out by doing a ct scan and saw the clip in the open position.  I am looking into a full reversal.  I wish I didn't have to.  I wish they would have just cut and tied like  I wanted them too.  But I am afraid that if I go in to just have the clips removed that they will cause more damage (like the one post who had her tubes burnt multiple times).  I feel angry that the doctor took it upon himself to put these inside of me when my wishes were well known.  And I have no recourse against him because I gave consent for sterilization.  

[sarsax]

I just went to the Dr. last week because of a stabbing pain on my right side that lasted 12 days.  The doc spent less than 2 minutes with me, gave me an exam, and said to go get an ultrasound.  For Diagnosis/Symptoms on my sheet he wrote: ovarian cysts/pelvic pain.  My last two periods have been awful.  Terrible cramping for DAYS before it starts, extremely heavy bleeding, horrendous mood swings, etc...I have also had terrible stabbing pains in my right ovary and a big gush of clear fluid.  I've never experienced anything like this until the last 2 months. (surgery was 2 mos ago) It's like my water is breaking only I'm not pregnant!!  I'm attaching a link to a very disturbing article.  I hope everyone reads it and passes it on to anyone who is thinking of getting a tubal ligation. I guess this is what my life is going to be like now, and I'm going to have to "learn to deal with it."   http://members.tripod.com/~sterilization_rights/history.html

[sarsax]

I forgot to mention that I am back to feeling like I got hit by a truck every day of my life.  It takes me a good 2 to 3 hours to get moving around.  I don't know if it's related to this procedure or not, but I suspect it is.  I regret it so much!  

[jmaeh]

Oh, I am so sorry for you.  But let me tell you that unless your insurance pays for the ultrasound I would skip it.  All they end up  saying is that everything appears normal.  (Normal!  Yeah right)  On thursday I had a consultation with a reproductive endocrinologist and he said that if I would have seen him first then he would have had me skip the tests.  He said that as long as my hormone panel came back relatively ok, he could repair the tubes and that would help the problems.  He said even though they don't have medical justification for why this happens, they know that in practice it does about 30% of the time.  So he says that 90% of the women he sees feel better after having a reversal.  He also said that even a small amount of tube left could be reversed.  Now it is a matter of coming up with the extra money.  I am just so sad for myself and every other woman who endures this kind of pain.  I used to be vibrant.  Now I feel souless most of the time.  Doctors need to stop selling sterilization as a quick and easy walk in the park.  When in reality it is a game of russian roulette.  I will look at your link in a minute.  God Bless, and email me ***@**** if you want to talk on a non public forum.  

[jmaeh]

Oh, by the way, get a copy of both operative reports.  I was talking to another woman on a different site who had her tubes cut and the triple burn proceedure and Dr Berger in North Carolina was able to put her back together.  Shes pregnant now.  Thats too far away for me, but maybe close for you(?).  It costs like 6K for everything.  For me thats not bad because my out of pocket is over that with insurance.  Here's hoping we can both fix our mistake.  I have to find a way because I am so mad at everyone who talked me into doing this.  They made me feel as if it HAD to be done.  And now they tell me to live with it.  They dont want to hear that Im in pain.  They act like I'm being a wimp.  I'm just so sick that I gave permission for someone to harm me.

[sarsax]

I will definitely be getting copies of my operative reports.  I ended up reluctantly getting the ultrasound the other day after calling my insurance company to see what my portion would be.  The max I have to pay is under $50 so I went ahead.  I haven't talked to the doctor yet, but I do have a cyst on my right ovary that should go away on it's own.  I've never had a problem with painful cysts until now.  It started to hurt my first cycle after surgery.  Coincidence????  The sonographer told me that soooo many women come in with unexplainable pelvic pain after tubal ligation surgery.  It makes me furious!!  I thought getting the clips removed would make my pain disappear, but then he goes and cauterizes them in 3 places! It gives me some hope that someone had a successful reversal after a tripe cautery.  I am going to start saving to hopefully get one too.  I'm in MO, so NC is far, but not too far for me.  I would love to have another baby some day, but even if I could just get the blood flowing back to my ovaries again and start feeling like myself, I would be happy.  Ugh!  I feel like I'm 3 months pregnant!  I wouldn't mind feeling this way if I actually were pregnant, but I'm not!!  My stomach is bloated out, stabbing pain on right side, hot flashes, mood swings, nausea, problems sleeping, have to pee every 20 minutes it seems, etc.... I wish insurance would cover a reversal!  It's going to take me forever to come up with 6k!!  

[sarsax]

So I talked to the Dr.'s nurse yesterday for the results of my ultrasound.  I am still in a lot of pain and feel sick to my stomach a good portion of every day.  They said the cyst is a "complicated" ovarian cyst so they sent me to get a CA125 blood test.  I'm sure it's not ovarian cancer, but it is really interfering with my daily life.  I started my last cycle the day after Thanksgiving and had the worst pain yet on that day.  I was in tears  and gritting my teeth so I wouldn't scream out loud and scare my children.  It may take 3 days for the results to come back, but the closer I get to midcycle, the more afraid I am.  That's when the pain is the worst!  Ugh!!  I'm so tired of all of this!  Also, the ultrasound showed the cyst on my right ovary, but now I have pain on both sides.  Anyone know how fast an ovarian cyst can grow?  It was less than 3 months ago that the  Dr. was in there doing surgery.  It can't be that bad right?

[jmaeh]

They found a cyst on my ovary too.  I've been told that it is really common due to the TL.  (Thanks for telling me that before I had this done!) I am sure that your cyst is nothing to worry about, but good that you are getting it checked out.   I started my last cycle the day before thanksgiving and I was in so much pain.  It was the worst one yet.  I told my husband that it felt like labor when you just cant take it anymore and beg for the epidural.  I too have horrible pain in the mid cycle.  I'm assuming that it is pressure from the egg not being able to travel down the tube.  I know this is personal, but why did you think that you needed to do something permanent?  I'm curious how we are all talked into this surgery...  My mother in law had it done when she was young, but she didn't tell me.  She said she didn't tell me how painful it was because then I wouldn't go through with it.  She went on to have heavy bleeding and she required a hysterectomy.  My doctor didn't even ask if I was done.  He just started telling me about it.  And then with each visit asked me if I wanted to sign the papers.  I finally gave in and said I would do it if I had a c section, thinking that I would never need one and it would get everyone off my back.  At that point my husband thought I wanted to do it, so when I required a c section, he told me to do it.  I regretted it immediately and my husband didn't understand that it was something I never wanted to do.  I thought I was making him happy, and he thought he was agreeing to something I wanted to do.  It was also one of the most stressful times of our lives.   Now when I look at my daughter I feel so overwhelmed by sadness and loss.  The RE that I saw asked why I did it, and what people said to me to make me think to do it.  It sounded so pathetic when I started to explain.  Then I realized that everyone who told me to do it had their OWN reasons why I should be "fixed" and I did it for all of their reasons and NONE of my own.  How could I have been so stupid?

[sarsax]

Your post just made me cry.  I'm so sorry for you that you have gone through this.  The fact that your mother in law didn't tell you what she went through is awful.  I want EVERYONE to know who is thinking about getting it done.  I had mine 6 weeks after the birth of my 3rd child.  I thought it was what I wanted.  Everyone told me it was my body and my choice.  My mother said, "If there is ANY doubt in your mind, don't do it." Well, at the time there was no doubt.  I was married before my husband and had a child with that man.  My husband adopted my daughter, but I still felt like if something were to happen with us, I had 3 biological children and he has 2.  Stupid now that I think about it.  I cry daily when I look at my kids and know I can't have one more.  The doctor wants me to come back in 4 weeks for a repeat ultrasound.  I now have pain on the left too and the cyst on my right is only 2.6 cm x1.95 cm.  I don't understand how something that small is causing me all this pain.  I seem to get worse with each day. I'm extremely tired all the time, feel like I'm going to throw up all the time, I'm losing weight like crazy, (my mom keeps telling me to eat more because I'm too skinny), my sides hurt, now my lower back hurts and the pain in my side is shooting up into my ribcage making breathing difficult unless I'm sitting perfectly straight.  My hair is falling out in clumps and I'm an emotional wreck.  I just want to feel like myself again!  When will this go away!?  Also, I'm on day 7 of my cycle now and the closer I get to ovulation the more afraid I get.  That pain is excruciating.  Ugh.  Is this really normal for a cyst to make you feel this bad?  Oh, my ca125 came back normal, of course.  

[jmaeh]

I am so glad that your test came back normal.  I wish I knew how to make the pain stop without surgery, but I haven't figured it out yet.  I have tried the trigger point injections, chiropractic, accupuncture, and massage.  Acuupuncture helped a little but not much.  My hair is also falling out in clumps and that scares me.  I feel like in another couple of months I will not have much hair left.  My husband didn't get it until he was playing around and tugged my hair and got a handful of it.  I just want to feel like the old me.  My husband keeps asking if having surgery will really fix this, and the truth is I don't really know.  I hope it will, but I have no guarantees. Meanwhile my daughters first birthday is on the 16th and I don't feel any interest in celebrating.  How do you celebrate the day you made a horrible mistake with cake and ice cream?  I love her so much.  She is the one that makes me want to have more children.  But knowing that was the day I ruined myself... I'm just having a hard time with that.  I still don't think that we should be allowed make a decision about this while were pregnant or have just given birth.  Our hormones change so much.  If you had waited until 6 months instead of 6 weeks, do you think your decision would still have been the same?  I know I couldn't have been talked into it if I had been asked after I healed from her birth.  Hope you have a good day.  

[sarsax]

I am still in terrible pain.  I went to my Dr. appt Wednesday and he said he has done everything he can for me, that he's treated me aggressively.  (I don't know what he's talking about, he hasn't "treated" anything).  He said the only thing he could do now is a hysterectomy and remove everything.  When I told him NO, I do not want that he prescribed me two very strong antibiotics and said take them in case I have an infection.  I left there in tears and still in pain.  I ended up going to the E.R. that night.  Tests showed that there is NO infection.  Why the dr. would give me such strong antibiotics without even testing anything is beyond me.  A CT scan showed cysts on both ovaries but they are very small.  I still don't understand how I can feel this sick and in pain from something so small.  The e.r. doc said, "maybe you have a touch of the flu."  So frustrating.  I do not have the flu!!  I feel like my health is declining by the day.  How does a person go from running 4 miles a day and feeling like they are in the best shape of their life to barely being able to get off the couch?  Something is WRONG.  I know my body. I took the advice of calling a reproductive endocrinologist and will hopefully have an appt. in the next week or two.  I have to wait on the new patient paperwork and get the records from my other Dr. sent over.  Even if I can never have another baby, I need to feel better.  I can't live like this for the rest of my life.  My family is suffering too.  My husband has had to pick up my slack.  I'm starting to feel like an outsider just watching them live while I sit and feel awful.  

[jmaeh]

I totally understand your comment about feeling like an outsider in your own family.  I tried to describe it to my husband but he couldn't understand.  Its like I'm just not fully present anymore.  Even my three year old trys to explain to people that "mommy doesn't feel good anymore"  Thats just sad.  I hope your appointment with the RE goes well. I think I will be able to have mine reversed in feb.  ( I hope)  Hope you feel better soon. :)

[jmaeh]

Oh, and when you see the RE be really clear that you are interested in reversing this if at all possible.  Many doctors assume that if you had your TL done that now all you want are options that will keep you sterile.  (I hate the word sterile)  Anyway,  that is what I have found.  The RE that I talked to even went so far as to say that he didn't think reversal surgery was worth the effort if it was just done for pain relief because they couldn't guarantee pain relief.  But if it was done for pain relief and the chance to have another baby, they could guarantee that you would have a chance for another child.  Like somehow me wanting to have another baby was more important than me wanting to feel better.  Right now I feel like you do, I just want to feel well.  I want to feel more like the person that I used to be.  But what do I do if I go ahead with the surgery and it doesn't help?  Do you just live with it or start ripping more parts out?  I wish I had just gone back on the pill.  And in all honesty, my hubby is not keen on the idea of another child.  But he does understand that I need to do something about the pain.  I made him watch a you tube video of filshie clips being put in.  When he saw the clips on the video he understood how you could just not "get over" the pain.  If you get anymore answers from your doctor please let me know.  Thanks, and I sincerly hope you feel better.

[sarsax]

Thank you for the advice.  I will definitely tell the RE about my desire to have another child.  My husband isn't too keen on it either, but he isn't ruling the idea out completely.  I think that my cysts have ruptured because I'm not having the intense stabbing on both sides anymore.  So that's a plus, except for the sick feeling I still have.  I went and had my hair done yesterday and my hair girl noticed that my hair is sooo much thinner. (without me even saying anything).  It almost made me cry.  What DOESN'T make me cry these days?  Ugh.  I know what you're saying about your 3 year old.  My 3 year old asks me on a daily basis, "What's wrong Mom?  Does your stomach hurt?"  It makes me terribly sad.  I hope you get to feeling better as well.  I will let you know what the RE says.  Keep me posted too!  

[sarsax]

Well, I went to the RE yesterday.  She was very nice and seemed like she is determined to help me.  She performed a transvaginal ultra sound and the cyst on my left is gone.  The one on the right has shrunk to 1 cm.  However, I am still in pain all the time.  She prescribed me Norethindrone which is like Progesterone.  She also gave me zoloft.  When she said she is "very concerned about my quality of life right now,"  the dam broke.  I bawled like a baby.  I go back on the 19th to discuss the results of my hormone tests and to see if these meds are working.  I don't understand this.  I was in pain from the filshie clips before this surgery, but I was happy and healthy.  I was in the best shape of my life, running about 4 miles a day up til a couple days before the operation.  Now I feel like I am withering up and need to be on medication????  It doesn't make any sense.  The dr. told me that if these meds don't work then she wants to try injectible medications to treat endometriosis.  I don't know anything about these, do you?  I hope you had a good holiday and that you are feeling better.  Let me know!

[jmaeh]

I'm glad to hear  that you had a chance to see the RE.  I tried zoloft in a last ditch effort to make myself feel better but it didn't work for me.  That's not to say that it wont work for you.  Someone else told me that they thought it helped to focus their mind away from the pain and tword a solution.  But I didn't get that effect.  Right now the RE put me on bc pills (which was what I wanted to avoid) so that my cycle could be regulated because he wants to remove the clips on sometime between day 7-11 of cycle.  I used to be able to set my watch by my period, but now its all over the place.  I guess that by the end of the month, if all goes well, then my clips will be gone.  I am going to go for the reversal (hopefully).  I have to say that it is weird.  These bc pills are monophasic, all estrogen, and I feel happier and more content, but at the same time I dont want ANYONE to touch me.  Its like I cant stand it. Weird huh?  Hormones do crazy things to us and we should have never messed with ours like we have.  My primary said that if I feel better with the estrogen then maybe I am in menopause.  That made me sad.  Im too young for that.  So maybe even if I get it reversed, the damage is done.  Do you think the progesterone has helped any yet?  Maybe too early to tell.  I hope for the best for you in the new year.  We are both going to find the answers we need.  We deserve it.  

[sarsax]

I'm glad that they are taking off the clips.  I wish I could do a reversal.  The RE said unfortunately no chance of reversing a triple cautery.  I have taken the meds for 2 days now and feel 10xs worse than before.  I tried taking them both before bed last night and didn't fall asleep until 7 this morning.  It's making my stomach terribly upset and I feel like I'm in a daze.  My head has been pounding for 2 days now.  I'm going to keep taking it I guess to see if these symptoms improve.  I'm still having stabbing pains on both sides, which is weird considering the one cyst is shrinking and there isn't one on the left.  I also do not want anyone to touch me.  I haven't been able to have sex with my husband in 2 months.  Poor guy.  How old are you?  Menopause???  If that is the case then there is NO doubt in my mind that the clips have caused it.  I'm so sorry for you.  I'm hoping that we both can be fixed sometime in the very near future.  I'm anxious to find out the results of my hormone tests.  Did yours come back with estrogen levels off?  I look like I'm just shriveling up and dying.  You can see all my ribs and my hip bones stick out far.  I feel so unhealthy and I was in such good shape 3 mos ago.  Well, almost 4 now.  I don't like to wear shirts that show any of my chest because my collar bone and breast bone protrude and I look anorexic.  (which I am NOT).  Ugh.  This is pure craziness.  Best of luck to you.  Make sure you are adamant with the doc that you don't want ANY of your organs removed during the removal of the clips. Also, tell them you want to see them when you are done.  You will be surprised at how big they are.  It's gross.  I will keep you in my prayers.

[jmaeh]

I so want to see the clips after they are removed.  I actually told my husband that I wanted to ask to keep them.  He thought that was morbid.  I thought that if I could see them then I would know they were out and somehow that would help me to heal.  All of my hormone tests originally came out fine ( at least I was told they were fine by the first OB, but now I am not so sure that I trust her..)  I have lost weight too.  I was a little chunky before so the 55 pounds I have lost has actually been a blessing.  What people don't understand is that I am not dieting.  They keep asking me which plan I am following and telling me that they are so proud of me, and I am doing NOTHING.  Something in my body changed and now everytime I step on the scale I weigh less than before.  I would be elated if I wasnt worried about what is wrong that is making me lose weight.  I am 39 so I suppose that early menopause is possible, but my mom and gram didnt go through menopause until mid to late 50's.  (we are a very fertile family :)  I just know that I easily concieved at 38 (first try)  and now we are talking about menopause!?  I have never had any symptoms until the tubal and menopause wouldnt cause the sharp stabbing pains by my ovaries.   It is so frustrating.  And now, do I bother with a reversal if I might be in menopause?  I just don't know.  The clips have to come out for sure.  I just am so unsure.