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WELCOME one and all to the Chronic Kidney Failure in Dogs Group
I hope you will join this Group and become a valuable and active member. Through this Group, we can help each other with suggestions, advice, support and information about this dreadful disease and how best we can manage treatments for our best friends. As a starting point, please have a read of my article on diet at: http://www.infobarrel.com/How_Diet_Affects_Dogs_with_Chronic_Kidney_Disease
I have tried my very best to put as much useful information as possible in this piece, but if your questions and concerns are not answered in the piece, please start a thread and post your comments. To help track your thread, please head it with the name of your dog.
I have tried my very best to put as much useful information as possible in this piece, but if your questions and concerns are not answered in the piece, please start a thread and post your comments. To help track your thread, please head it with the name of your dog.
Hi Nancy.
The suspension format of aluminium hydroxide (suspended in a liquid) does have a bad taste, and most owners use a syringe to put it in their pups mouths, just so they can't refuse it. The gel powder form (available without prescription from http://www.thrivingpets.com/) has no taste or smell and is added to food. Not sure what your vet is charging for the alum hydroxide, but if it's very costly through your vet, you can always try getting it direct from ThrivingPets instead (if cheaper).
If the chicken stew is Hills KD then it's absolutely fine and will already be low in sodium and phosphorus.
The vet's veggie + protein diet sounds fine. The best veg is green beans (the lowest in phosphorus), but the mixture given sounds okay. When using chicken, make sure you buy thighs (they are the lowest in phosphorus) and that the poultry is intended for human consumption, as that means it will be high-quality protein content.
It might be worth downloading and printing off some of my nutritional data sheets (available at my website at www.tonyboothwriter.com), as these contain an easy to reference list of the best meats, poultry, fish, pulses and vegetables for kd dogs and you can mix and match according to need.
Good luck and do keep me updated with how things go.
Tony
The suspension format of aluminium hydroxide (suspended in a liquid) does have a bad taste, and most owners use a syringe to put it in their pups mouths, just so they can't refuse it. The gel powder form (available without prescription from http://www.thrivingpets.com/) has no taste or smell and is added to food. Not sure what your vet is charging for the alum hydroxide, but if it's very costly through your vet, you can always try getting it direct from ThrivingPets instead (if cheaper).
If the chicken stew is Hills KD then it's absolutely fine and will already be low in sodium and phosphorus.
The vet's veggie + protein diet sounds fine. The best veg is green beans (the lowest in phosphorus), but the mixture given sounds okay. When using chicken, make sure you buy thighs (they are the lowest in phosphorus) and that the poultry is intended for human consumption, as that means it will be high-quality protein content.
It might be worth downloading and printing off some of my nutritional data sheets (available at my website at www.tonyboothwriter.com), as these contain an easy to reference list of the best meats, poultry, fish, pulses and vegetables for kd dogs and you can mix and match according to need.
Good luck and do keep me updated with how things go.
Tony
7 Comments
Hi Tony,
Thank you so much for the above information. I had a conversation with my Vet who agreed that Chance should be started on a phosphate binder --the aluminum hydroxide one.
Early Wednesday morning, Chance began to have really bad diarrhea and then she would not eat her breakfast and vomited. She became weaker and frail really fast so we went to the Vets. She was dehydrated and her values were up a bit more so they hospitalized her with IV fluids and meds. She stopped wanting all foods. Friday they started her on an appetite stimulant she began to eat some things but refuses most. And she won't take pills by mouth and becomes aggressive if you really try to force her mouth open. She continues to have bowel problems and had an u/s of her abdomen which showed that she has inflammatory bowel plus she has a UTI. They are treating her now for that as well but things don't look good. We are waiting for some news from the Vet as I write this to you with such desperation and sadness. I will keep you posted and wanted once again to say thank you.
Nancy
Thank you so much for the above information. I had a conversation with my Vet who agreed that Chance should be started on a phosphate binder --the aluminum hydroxide one.
Early Wednesday morning, Chance began to have really bad diarrhea and then she would not eat her breakfast and vomited. She became weaker and frail really fast so we went to the Vets. She was dehydrated and her values were up a bit more so they hospitalized her with IV fluids and meds. She stopped wanting all foods. Friday they started her on an appetite stimulant she began to eat some things but refuses most. And she won't take pills by mouth and becomes aggressive if you really try to force her mouth open. She continues to have bowel problems and had an u/s of her abdomen which showed that she has inflammatory bowel plus she has a UTI. They are treating her now for that as well but things don't look good. We are waiting for some news from the Vet as I write this to you with such desperation and sadness. I will keep you posted and wanted once again to say thank you.
Nancy
Hi Nancy. Sorry things took a downward turn. This is the way with this disease ... good days and bad days ... I know it can be heart-wrenching.
Sounds like a couple of things started to get out of control there. The UTi is an important one, because it does make pups feel dreadful. I'm hoping they did a culture and sensitivity test, rather than just guess which antibiotic to treat it with. Now, this is quite important, UTIs and kidney disease ... the antibiotic needs to be given for a longer period than normal, so at least 20 days. The dose should also be lower than normal. The lower dose helps protect the kidneys a little and the longer time period for the course ensures the infection is treated.
Tony
Sounds like a couple of things started to get out of control there. The UTi is an important one, because it does make pups feel dreadful. I'm hoping they did a culture and sensitivity test, rather than just guess which antibiotic to treat it with. Now, this is quite important, UTIs and kidney disease ... the antibiotic needs to be given for a longer period than normal, so at least 20 days. The dose should also be lower than normal. The lower dose helps protect the kidneys a little and the longer time period for the course ensures the infection is treated.
Tony
Hi Tony,
I have an update for you.....
We had an abdominal u/s done on Chance and she has colitis(inflammatory bowel) hence all the diarrhea for the past 3 months. She is on Tylosin for that.She also had that nasty UTI--- they did a culture and she was put on the appropriate antibiotics. Both those things were treated and she has responded well to that however, her kidney values have worsened. Presently, Creatinine 285, Urea 42, Phosphorous 2.8 and Bun 42. She has been hospitalized with IV fluids for 2 days last week which did bring down her values to creatinine 283, urea 20, phosphorous 1.8 and Bun 20.4 . But she comes home and they have crept up to the above present values. Now we are giving sub Q fluids. The main issue...she has gone off food a few days ago so we literally are trying everything to get her to eat something. Sometimes 20 different things and then all of a sudden she eats a small amount of something new. She is on Famotidine 20 mg daily and an appetite stimulant and Forticor. I have to force the Famotidine and appetite stimulant down her throat and she really protests. We have been luckty to get the other things in at night when she eats a bit. For the phosphate binder, that is a tough one cuz now she is not eating . And when she eats it is only protein...a bit of roast beef, ham steak etc. At least a few days ago, she was eating some macaroni or crackers or cereal but now not at all. Just protein. So we are now trying to get amphogel into her via syringe after eating something. But everything is a struggle and she is getting weaker. The end is very near and we are scared. Just wanted to give you an update and see if you had any thoughts on this.
Thank you,
Nancy
I have an update for you.....
We had an abdominal u/s done on Chance and she has colitis(inflammatory bowel) hence all the diarrhea for the past 3 months. She is on Tylosin for that.She also had that nasty UTI--- they did a culture and she was put on the appropriate antibiotics. Both those things were treated and she has responded well to that however, her kidney values have worsened. Presently, Creatinine 285, Urea 42, Phosphorous 2.8 and Bun 42. She has been hospitalized with IV fluids for 2 days last week which did bring down her values to creatinine 283, urea 20, phosphorous 1.8 and Bun 20.4 . But she comes home and they have crept up to the above present values. Now we are giving sub Q fluids. The main issue...she has gone off food a few days ago so we literally are trying everything to get her to eat something. Sometimes 20 different things and then all of a sudden she eats a small amount of something new. She is on Famotidine 20 mg daily and an appetite stimulant and Forticor. I have to force the Famotidine and appetite stimulant down her throat and she really protests. We have been luckty to get the other things in at night when she eats a bit. For the phosphate binder, that is a tough one cuz now she is not eating . And when she eats it is only protein...a bit of roast beef, ham steak etc. At least a few days ago, she was eating some macaroni or crackers or cereal but now not at all. Just protein. So we are now trying to get amphogel into her via syringe after eating something. But everything is a struggle and she is getting weaker. The end is very near and we are scared. Just wanted to give you an update and see if you had any thoughts on this.
Thank you,
Nancy
Hi Nancy. I'm really sorry. Yes, this horrible disease catches up eventually, and at which stage everything tried seems to fail. It is incredibly frustrating and saddening.
Tylosin is good remedy for kidney dogs with diarrhoea, as it by-passes the kidney so doesn't overload them with additional toxins and by-products from being metabolised.
The antibiotics would have undermined the kidneys though, because they produce large quantities of by-products, which if they can't be dealt with by the kidneys they just end up in the bloodstream. It's a Catch-22 scenario ... but the infection is f course better being dealt with. I'm assuming the antibiotic course has finished now?
The IV fluids were the right course of action - and SubQs for at least a month to 6 weeks, maybe more, is essential.
If the values are creeping up again, are you sure the amount of SubQ fluids are the right amount? If not, let me have Chance's weight and the type of fluids being used and I'll calculate it for you.
I understand the desire to get anything into her, food wise, and it is frustrating not to be succeeding. Of course, anything with higher amounts of phosphorus will impact on the kidneys, as you know, so it is best to avoid them if at all possible. Very simple things in very small amounts (can't stress that enough) are often the answer. As well as unusual things to entice - such as organic honey or pure organic coconut oil (just a teaspoon drizzled on the top), rare proteins such as kangaroo and ostrich (expensive but worthwhile trying as Chance may not have smelled or tasted them before), and you could also try adding a desertspoon of organic natural yogurt or even cottage cheese to the mix on a temporary basis.
The other thing worth trying (if your vet hasn't tried prescribing it yet) is Mirtazipine. It can be a miracle cure for inappetence for many kd dogs - but not all - with a 50/50 success rate. The advantage is it deals with 3 problems in one tablet, so always worth giving it a go. It can take a week or so to have an effect, though many report success after just a day.
Other than that, my guess is you are taking things day by day. And that's a good way to deal with things. There does come a point when nothing really works ... I hope you and Chance aren't there yet. Stay strong.
Tony
Tylosin is good remedy for kidney dogs with diarrhoea, as it by-passes the kidney so doesn't overload them with additional toxins and by-products from being metabolised.
The antibiotics would have undermined the kidneys though, because they produce large quantities of by-products, which if they can't be dealt with by the kidneys they just end up in the bloodstream. It's a Catch-22 scenario ... but the infection is f course better being dealt with. I'm assuming the antibiotic course has finished now?
The IV fluids were the right course of action - and SubQs for at least a month to 6 weeks, maybe more, is essential.
If the values are creeping up again, are you sure the amount of SubQ fluids are the right amount? If not, let me have Chance's weight and the type of fluids being used and I'll calculate it for you.
I understand the desire to get anything into her, food wise, and it is frustrating not to be succeeding. Of course, anything with higher amounts of phosphorus will impact on the kidneys, as you know, so it is best to avoid them if at all possible. Very simple things in very small amounts (can't stress that enough) are often the answer. As well as unusual things to entice - such as organic honey or pure organic coconut oil (just a teaspoon drizzled on the top), rare proteins such as kangaroo and ostrich (expensive but worthwhile trying as Chance may not have smelled or tasted them before), and you could also try adding a desertspoon of organic natural yogurt or even cottage cheese to the mix on a temporary basis.
The other thing worth trying (if your vet hasn't tried prescribing it yet) is Mirtazipine. It can be a miracle cure for inappetence for many kd dogs - but not all - with a 50/50 success rate. The advantage is it deals with 3 problems in one tablet, so always worth giving it a go. It can take a week or so to have an effect, though many report success after just a day.
Other than that, my guess is you are taking things day by day. And that's a good way to deal with things. There does come a point when nothing really works ... I hope you and Chance aren't there yet. Stay strong.
Tony
Hi Tony,
Thank you for your response.
Yes we are taking it literally day to day.
Chance's weight fluctuates between 19.8 - 20 kg.
I have looked at your article on diet, phosphorous and meal ideas. They seem wonderful I just wish she would eat some of that. She used to LOVE chicken, salmon, veggies etc but has gone off all of that. Unfortunately, sometimes we try literally 20 different things and finally she will take a few bites of something but it has become a 24/7 job taking care of her. I'm not complaining don't get me wrong just feeling exhausted myself. Sometimes all we get into her is a few macaroni, cereal, crackers or a tiny bit of rice. Then all of a sudden she will eat roast beef slices (thinly). It makes no sense and then out of the blue she will eat something that she had stopped eating altogether but she will only eat tiny tiny amounts. I know it's not good but she likes rice, water and a tiny bit of ham. We are so at a loss . Yet interesting enough, she has not yet lost weight but definitely muscle mass. Perhaps it is water retention from the sub q fluids.--Lactated ringers. She is on the appetite stimulant that you mentioned--Mirtzapine and Fanoditine.( Pepcid Ac) and Cerenia and Forticor. and her tylosin antibiotics. Also, because she is not eating much, we are mixing the aluminum hydroxide powder with water and using a syringe to get it in her .
Today, she ate some plain greek yogurt where as before she would even look at it. Just a week ago, she was eating salmon and chicken and all kinds of things. It sure is stressful. I will try those tricks you suggested above like the coconut oil, honey etc.
Thanks for all and will keep you posted.
Nancy and Chance
Thank you for your response.
Yes we are taking it literally day to day.
Chance's weight fluctuates between 19.8 - 20 kg.
I have looked at your article on diet, phosphorous and meal ideas. They seem wonderful I just wish she would eat some of that. She used to LOVE chicken, salmon, veggies etc but has gone off all of that. Unfortunately, sometimes we try literally 20 different things and finally she will take a few bites of something but it has become a 24/7 job taking care of her. I'm not complaining don't get me wrong just feeling exhausted myself. Sometimes all we get into her is a few macaroni, cereal, crackers or a tiny bit of rice. Then all of a sudden she will eat roast beef slices (thinly). It makes no sense and then out of the blue she will eat something that she had stopped eating altogether but she will only eat tiny tiny amounts. I know it's not good but she likes rice, water and a tiny bit of ham. We are so at a loss . Yet interesting enough, she has not yet lost weight but definitely muscle mass. Perhaps it is water retention from the sub q fluids.--Lactated ringers. She is on the appetite stimulant that you mentioned--Mirtzapine and Fanoditine.( Pepcid Ac) and Cerenia and Forticor. and her tylosin antibiotics. Also, because she is not eating much, we are mixing the aluminum hydroxide powder with water and using a syringe to get it in her .
Today, she ate some plain greek yogurt where as before she would even look at it. Just a week ago, she was eating salmon and chicken and all kinds of things. It sure is stressful. I will try those tricks you suggested above like the coconut oil, honey etc.
Thanks for all and will keep you posted.
Nancy and Chance
You are doing fantastic job. I know it's exhausting and very stressful, both emotionally and physically. I've 'been there' and don't envy you at all. But, hopefully, Chance will rally once the fluids, phosphate binder and Mirtzapine take effect - fingers crossed.
Tony
Tony
Hi Tony,
Hope that you and your fur kids are okay...
We have been really busy with Chance and wanted to give you an update.
Mid August given her age, symptoms and stage of kidney disease we were told that Chance was palliative. Lots of conversations took place around euthanasia but we did not feel ready for this. We opted for comfort care instead.
Chance is presently taking Famoditine, Mirtazapine, Tylosin (for her inflammatory bowel), Fortekor, Cerenia ( 5 days on and 3 days off) and Gabapentin once daily for pain management. We are giving her probiotics before her meals and the phosphate binder (white powder--aluminum hydroxide )after her meals. We give both these via syringe with a tiny bit of water to mix it up. .We are giving daily sub q fluids for her hydration using plasma lyte and due to her bad arthritis we have to assist her with 2 bowel movements morning and night as she cannot be independent any more. She also gets a vitamin b12 injection weekly. Although my Vet has said that the treatments are for comfort care and not curative, I am going to request more blood work as we are curious as to where things are at--even though they have said in a way that we are in a sense wasting our money and continue to remind us that she is palliative.
For her diet, she has some good days and some not so good days. We are rotating foods.
We evaluate her daily and try to keep her as comfortable as possible. We continue to look for signs that her time has come but we don't yet see it. We see her loving eyes looking back at us some days they look sadder -but these are the days that she doesn't feel so good. We are trying to maintain her dignity as best we can . She deserves this. She is such an angel !!!!
Thank you !!!!
take care,
Nancy
Hope that you and your fur kids are okay...
We have been really busy with Chance and wanted to give you an update.
Mid August given her age, symptoms and stage of kidney disease we were told that Chance was palliative. Lots of conversations took place around euthanasia but we did not feel ready for this. We opted for comfort care instead.
Chance is presently taking Famoditine, Mirtazapine, Tylosin (for her inflammatory bowel), Fortekor, Cerenia ( 5 days on and 3 days off) and Gabapentin once daily for pain management. We are giving her probiotics before her meals and the phosphate binder (white powder--aluminum hydroxide )after her meals. We give both these via syringe with a tiny bit of water to mix it up. .We are giving daily sub q fluids for her hydration using plasma lyte and due to her bad arthritis we have to assist her with 2 bowel movements morning and night as she cannot be independent any more. She also gets a vitamin b12 injection weekly. Although my Vet has said that the treatments are for comfort care and not curative, I am going to request more blood work as we are curious as to where things are at--even though they have said in a way that we are in a sense wasting our money and continue to remind us that she is palliative.
For her diet, she has some good days and some not so good days. We are rotating foods.
We evaluate her daily and try to keep her as comfortable as possible. We continue to look for signs that her time has come but we don't yet see it. We see her loving eyes looking back at us some days they look sadder -but these are the days that she doesn't feel so good. We are trying to maintain her dignity as best we can . She deserves this. She is such an angel !!!!
Thank you !!!!
take care,
Nancy
Hi Tony, me again....
so yeah.... I got my Vet in agreement for the aluminum hydroxide phosphate binder.
You were mentioning that they make a gel powder that has no taste and no odour?? Do you know exactly what it is called and is it a white powder or gel? My Vet was talking about Rx vitamins phos-bind and said that it is a white powder of aluminum hydroxide . but she said that it can alter the taste of food so I am thinking this is not the one you were referring to ?
Thanks again ..
Nancy
so yeah.... I got my Vet in agreement for the aluminum hydroxide phosphate binder.
You were mentioning that they make a gel powder that has no taste and no odour?? Do you know exactly what it is called and is it a white powder or gel? My Vet was talking about Rx vitamins phos-bind and said that it is a white powder of aluminum hydroxide . but she said that it can alter the taste of food so I am thinking this is not the one you were referring to ?
Thanks again ..
Nancy
Hi Tony,
Thanks for both your messages... That is shocking about the Epakitin.... Glad I know the reality though!! After I got the product I was looking at it and was wondering about the calcium in it. I am absolutely going to somehow get the alum. hydroxide in the gel powder. As soon as I read your response, I called my first vet back and am awaiting a phone call back. I said that I was requesting it. Hopefully that will work.
I agree that the vomiting could have been that I stopped the Omeprazole . Today, I find Chance is a lot more fussy and refusing some of her favourite things so I started that back up thinking that she must be feeling nauseated.
The chicken stew I was referring to is by Hills KD canned ( sorry I was unclear) ..They have the original and also a chicken stew. I am assuming that they are both okay to give??
When the second Vet talked about home cooking yesterday he said that we can make a meal by combining good quality protein and vegetables / carbs. He said for 1 cup of food we should use 1/3 cup cooked good quality protein like salmon filet, boiled chicken... chop it fine and combine it with 2/3 cup of different kinds of cooked and pureed veggies like carrots, peas, broccoli, cauliflower, butternut squash, green beans, pumpkin, sweet potatoes etc. He said we can cook all the veggies together , puree them measure out 2/3 cup and add that to the 1/3 cup finely chopped protein. Does this sound right to you?
Not sure I will start home cooking right away but would like to know your thoughts as home cooking is something I might soon need to try.
Thanks a million !!!!
Nancy
Thanks for both your messages... That is shocking about the Epakitin.... Glad I know the reality though!! After I got the product I was looking at it and was wondering about the calcium in it. I am absolutely going to somehow get the alum. hydroxide in the gel powder. As soon as I read your response, I called my first vet back and am awaiting a phone call back. I said that I was requesting it. Hopefully that will work.
I agree that the vomiting could have been that I stopped the Omeprazole . Today, I find Chance is a lot more fussy and refusing some of her favourite things so I started that back up thinking that she must be feeling nauseated.
The chicken stew I was referring to is by Hills KD canned ( sorry I was unclear) ..They have the original and also a chicken stew. I am assuming that they are both okay to give??
When the second Vet talked about home cooking yesterday he said that we can make a meal by combining good quality protein and vegetables / carbs. He said for 1 cup of food we should use 1/3 cup cooked good quality protein like salmon filet, boiled chicken... chop it fine and combine it with 2/3 cup of different kinds of cooked and pureed veggies like carrots, peas, broccoli, cauliflower, butternut squash, green beans, pumpkin, sweet potatoes etc. He said we can cook all the veggies together , puree them measure out 2/3 cup and add that to the 1/3 cup finely chopped protein. Does this sound right to you?
Not sure I will start home cooking right away but would like to know your thoughts as home cooking is something I might soon need to try.
Thanks a million !!!!
Nancy
Hi Tony,
So I did not see your last reply when I sent you my last reply....
Thanks for your suggestions about rotating and smaller meals. I will do this.
So we gave Chance the Epakitin last night for the first time and a few hours later, she threw up. Not sure related to this but is aluminum hydroxide phosphate binder easier to digest ?
Also, Can we rotate the kd canned food i.e. the original one night and the chicken stew etc the next ? Also, she seems to prefer right now her Royal Canin mature consult canned food can we rotate this as well ? or is Kd much better for her right now?
Big hugs to your fur kids and Chance sends you a big hug back !!!
You are her guardian angel,
thanks,
Nancy
So I did not see your last reply when I sent you my last reply....
Thanks for your suggestions about rotating and smaller meals. I will do this.
So we gave Chance the Epakitin last night for the first time and a few hours later, she threw up. Not sure related to this but is aluminum hydroxide phosphate binder easier to digest ?
Also, Can we rotate the kd canned food i.e. the original one night and the chicken stew etc the next ? Also, she seems to prefer right now her Royal Canin mature consult canned food can we rotate this as well ? or is Kd much better for her right now?
Big hugs to your fur kids and Chance sends you a big hug back !!!
You are her guardian angel,
thanks,
Nancy
1 Comments
Hi Nancy. 2nd message ... we are chasing each other. Ha, ha.
I've already commented on Epakitin. All binders suffer from being rather unpalatable, unfortunately. However, alum hydroxide can be obtained as a gel powder and put in food, which tends to make it easier for dogs. It's also tasteless, so no nasty odours.
I'm curious about Chance throwing up ... and I'm wondering if this is because the Omeprazole has been stopped. Something worth mentioning to the vet, if Chance repeats this again tomorrow.
Is the chicken stew homemade or a bought product? The ingredients of the Royal Canin Mature include Protein: 9% - Fat content: 5.5%, but it doesn't say what the protein source is. In most kd specialised canned foods, the protein is high quality (much needed) rather than the low quality in some products (and something bad for the kidneys). You could telephone the manufacturer and ask them about that. The fat content may be of concern too, because some kd dogs become prone to pancreatitis (inflamed pancreas). It's something to be aware of and something worth checking through regular blood testing.
Rotating these three different foods is I think a safe option just now, while working out changing blood values. However, some dogs react to different food sources by vomiting or getting loose stools - so if either happen, it may be worth reverting to homemade or the kd canned.
Tony
I've already commented on Epakitin. All binders suffer from being rather unpalatable, unfortunately. However, alum hydroxide can be obtained as a gel powder and put in food, which tends to make it easier for dogs. It's also tasteless, so no nasty odours.
I'm curious about Chance throwing up ... and I'm wondering if this is because the Omeprazole has been stopped. Something worth mentioning to the vet, if Chance repeats this again tomorrow.
Is the chicken stew homemade or a bought product? The ingredients of the Royal Canin Mature include Protein: 9% - Fat content: 5.5%, but it doesn't say what the protein source is. In most kd specialised canned foods, the protein is high quality (much needed) rather than the low quality in some products (and something bad for the kidneys). You could telephone the manufacturer and ask them about that. The fat content may be of concern too, because some kd dogs become prone to pancreatitis (inflamed pancreas). It's something to be aware of and something worth checking through regular blood testing.
Rotating these three different foods is I think a safe option just now, while working out changing blood values. However, some dogs react to different food sources by vomiting or getting loose stools - so if either happen, it may be worth reverting to homemade or the kd canned.
Tony
Hi Tony,
I got the second opinion and he agreed that Chance requires a phosphate binder. He said we should keep her on the Fortekor and phosphate binder and discontinue the rest like glucosamine, aventi ks, fortiflora, gabapentin and omprazole etc. as he feels those 2 items are the most important and the other meds can worsen her kidneys. He put her on Epakitin.. ( chitosan and calcium carbonate powder ). I know you said that aluminum hydroxide is better. ??? Now I am wondering about this.
He also talked about home cooking and the advantages of this as you have mentioned
Thanks,
Nancy
I got the second opinion and he agreed that Chance requires a phosphate binder. He said we should keep her on the Fortekor and phosphate binder and discontinue the rest like glucosamine, aventi ks, fortiflora, gabapentin and omprazole etc. as he feels those 2 items are the most important and the other meds can worsen her kidneys. He put her on Epakitin.. ( chitosan and calcium carbonate powder ). I know you said that aluminum hydroxide is better. ??? Now I am wondering about this.
He also talked about home cooking and the advantages of this as you have mentioned
Thanks,
Nancy
1 Comments
Epakitin is rubbish. Sorry, but there's no point me saying anything less blunt. It has two ingredients, as you rightly mention ... calcium carbonate (the worst there is, because it has less workable calcium than calcium acetate and is likely to cause hypercalcaemia in due course) and chitosen, which has been shown to act very poorly as a binder ingredient (comes from shellfish).
On the plus side, you can start using it and have another blood test done in two weeks time and then see what - if any - impact has been made on serum phosphorus and general demeanour. If as I suspect there has been none or very little, then mention aluminium hydroxide again. If he won't provide it, then get a 3rd opinion from a more informed vet.
I think discontinuing the Omeprazole is fine at this stage ... but be aware it may need re-starting if Chance starts to refuse food due to nausea.
Home cooking is a good consideration, but hardly necessary just yet unless you want to go down that road. A very good quality canned dog food is fine, as long as it is low in phosphorus and sodium. Low protein isn't necessary yet.
Tony
On the plus side, you can start using it and have another blood test done in two weeks time and then see what - if any - impact has been made on serum phosphorus and general demeanour. If as I suspect there has been none or very little, then mention aluminium hydroxide again. If he won't provide it, then get a 3rd opinion from a more informed vet.
I think discontinuing the Omeprazole is fine at this stage ... but be aware it may need re-starting if Chance starts to refuse food due to nausea.
Home cooking is a good consideration, but hardly necessary just yet unless you want to go down that road. A very good quality canned dog food is fine, as long as it is low in phosphorus and sodium. Low protein isn't necessary yet.
Tony
Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly.
We actually are getting that second opinion tomorrow and I will absolutely mention the phosphate binder. and I forget to tell you that Chance's ALT is a little elevated. So given that she just started Fortekor this past week, I will take your suggestion and get some milk thistle for her. I only noted the elevated ALT by asking for a copy of her test results. My Vet had not told me that.
I also have been reading your articles which I find very helpful. They are so well written and full of great helpful advice.
Your diet article mentions the benefits of giving a CKF dog Green Tripe...do you think I should also try that for Chance? In addition to the Hills KD with honey, coconut oil and cabbage.
Take Care,
Nancy
We actually are getting that second opinion tomorrow and I will absolutely mention the phosphate binder. and I forget to tell you that Chance's ALT is a little elevated. So given that she just started Fortekor this past week, I will take your suggestion and get some milk thistle for her. I only noted the elevated ALT by asking for a copy of her test results. My Vet had not told me that.
I also have been reading your articles which I find very helpful. They are so well written and full of great helpful advice.
Your diet article mentions the benefits of giving a CKF dog Green Tripe...do you think I should also try that for Chance? In addition to the Hills KD with honey, coconut oil and cabbage.
Take Care,
Nancy
1 Comments
Green tripe is good, because most dogs are very happy to eat it, so if I were you I'd hold that back and use it only when Chance refuses to eat her normal day-to-day food (sadly, that time will come at some stage).
Thanks for your very kind comments about my articles. They are written purely to help dog owners (and their dogs) just like yourself. If they help, then that's all the reward I need.
When using the honey, coconut and green cabbage ... as additional supplements to the Hills kd ... I would rotate them one after the other. So, coconut one day, then cabbage another day, and then honey on day 3. This may keep Chance interested in them and prevent her getting bored with the smell and taste.
In addition, and if it is practical, try feeding several smaller meals more often during the day. This will help reduce the stress on the kidneys and also help reduce nausea.
Do let me know what your 2nd opinion vet says.
Take care - give Chance a hug from me.
Tony
Thanks for your very kind comments about my articles. They are written purely to help dog owners (and their dogs) just like yourself. If they help, then that's all the reward I need.
When using the honey, coconut and green cabbage ... as additional supplements to the Hills kd ... I would rotate them one after the other. So, coconut one day, then cabbage another day, and then honey on day 3. This may keep Chance interested in them and prevent her getting bored with the smell and taste.
In addition, and if it is practical, try feeding several smaller meals more often during the day. This will help reduce the stress on the kidneys and also help reduce nausea.
Do let me know what your 2nd opinion vet says.
Take care - give Chance a hug from me.
Tony
Hi Tony,
So my Vet is now talking about quality of life and doing the "right thing" for Chance and saying things like "I hate to say that she is 15 cause some dogs live healthy to 17 but she is 15 "... I am not there yet. We are getting a second opinion form another Vet in the next couple of days.
So Doogan was on KD canned food and then we went onto home cooking. We bought that powder that you add to food for vitamins and minerals ( Hilary's blend Renal supplement) but he hated it ..the smell is very strong . If we wanted to start home cooking for Chance how would I do this..? So just to confirm Hills KD canned is not better in terms of protein and phosphorous levels compared to Royal Canin Mature consult canned?
Thanks,
Nancy
So my Vet is now talking about quality of life and doing the "right thing" for Chance and saying things like "I hate to say that she is 15 cause some dogs live healthy to 17 but she is 15 "... I am not there yet. We are getting a second opinion form another Vet in the next couple of days.
So Doogan was on KD canned food and then we went onto home cooking. We bought that powder that you add to food for vitamins and minerals ( Hilary's blend Renal supplement) but he hated it ..the smell is very strong . If we wanted to start home cooking for Chance how would I do this..? So just to confirm Hills KD canned is not better in terms of protein and phosphorous levels compared to Royal Canin Mature consult canned?
Thanks,
Nancy
1 Comments
Forget about protein restriction. It really isn't nearly as important as phosphorus right now. As long as the protein you give is human grade meats, that will be fine. I would stick with Hills kd ... add a teaspoon of honey or organic coconut oil and a tablespoon of cooked and chopped green cabbage, and see if he takes it. Great that you're getting a 2nd vet for an opinion ... please, please mention the phosphate binder. It's so important.
Tony
Tony
Hi Tony,
So just got some more blood work done on Chance, my 15 year old with chronic kidney disease. It appears that she has slipped up to stage 3.
Her blood results as of 2 days ago are... creatinine 262, urea 20, phosphorous 1.7 and her BUN 20.4.
Her protein in her blood work was normal but she is a bit anemic.
We just brought another sample of urine to have a protein test done on it.
Would love to know your thoughts.
She has been eating Royal Canine Mature consult canned dog food for a few years now when she was first diagnosed with chronic kidney issues.
We have tried the omega supplements but they give her diarrhea but I do give her a bit of salmon or sardines once a week. She is on aventi ks nutritional support, glucosamine chondrotin pills for arthritis , a probiotic, metronidazole for her bowel issues and the vet is thinking about putting her on Forticor...which Doogan was on. (our beagle that passed away in December 2015).
Thanks as always,
Nancy
So just got some more blood work done on Chance, my 15 year old with chronic kidney disease. It appears that she has slipped up to stage 3.
Her blood results as of 2 days ago are... creatinine 262, urea 20, phosphorous 1.7 and her BUN 20.4.
Her protein in her blood work was normal but she is a bit anemic.
We just brought another sample of urine to have a protein test done on it.
Would love to know your thoughts.
She has been eating Royal Canine Mature consult canned dog food for a few years now when she was first diagnosed with chronic kidney issues.
We have tried the omega supplements but they give her diarrhea but I do give her a bit of salmon or sardines once a week. She is on aventi ks nutritional support, glucosamine chondrotin pills for arthritis , a probiotic, metronidazole for her bowel issues and the vet is thinking about putting her on Forticor...which Doogan was on. (our beagle that passed away in December 2015).
Thanks as always,
Nancy
4 Comments
Hi. Forticor (Benazepril) is a good idea, as it will help widen blood vessels and improve blood flow to the kidneys. There is of course a downside too, insofar as your vet will need to keep a very close eye on what's happening to blood pressure, to make sure it doesn't fall rapidly; and it will add some toxins to the blood load, although most of this medication is filtered by the liver - so it would be advantageous to add some Milk Thistle to the supplements list, just to add some protection to this organ.
At stage 3, you now need to restrict protein and (more importantly) phosphorus even more. Royal Canine Mature has about 25% protein on a dry matter basis, which is now too much. The aim for protein is to get it down to about 12%. Phosphorus content is about 0.6%, which is acceptable for early stage kidney failure, but again this is now really too much for Chance.
That said, the protein and phosphorus content of Royal Canine Mature is about the same as the best alternative renal foods, such as Hills kd.
So, the question is whether to continue with it or look at the next alternative, which is probably home cooking. But that presents its own set of problems ... time and effort, getting the ingredients right and ensuring sufficient vitamins and minerals are provided.
Is Chance on a Phosphate Binder (sorry, without back reading I don't know)?
I'm wondering what is in the ks nutritional support? Could that be contributing to the problem? Is there a reason you decided to give this?
The anaemia is not uncommon in kd dogs, but it does need dealing with otherwise it will worsen and become a major health concern. Has your vet done an erythropoietin test? This is the first thing needed, as it will help identify whether it is this abnormality that's causing the low red blood cell count. If it isn't, then you are safe to give a medication such as Aranesp (darbepoetin alfa), which will help correct the anaemia. You can also use a supplement form of this, from Thriving Pets. Just ensure the erythropoietin test is done first and discuss the options and testing with your vet before proceeding.
Tony
At stage 3, you now need to restrict protein and (more importantly) phosphorus even more. Royal Canine Mature has about 25% protein on a dry matter basis, which is now too much. The aim for protein is to get it down to about 12%. Phosphorus content is about 0.6%, which is acceptable for early stage kidney failure, but again this is now really too much for Chance.
That said, the protein and phosphorus content of Royal Canine Mature is about the same as the best alternative renal foods, such as Hills kd.
So, the question is whether to continue with it or look at the next alternative, which is probably home cooking. But that presents its own set of problems ... time and effort, getting the ingredients right and ensuring sufficient vitamins and minerals are provided.
Is Chance on a Phosphate Binder (sorry, without back reading I don't know)?
I'm wondering what is in the ks nutritional support? Could that be contributing to the problem? Is there a reason you decided to give this?
The anaemia is not uncommon in kd dogs, but it does need dealing with otherwise it will worsen and become a major health concern. Has your vet done an erythropoietin test? This is the first thing needed, as it will help identify whether it is this abnormality that's causing the low red blood cell count. If it isn't, then you are safe to give a medication such as Aranesp (darbepoetin alfa), which will help correct the anaemia. You can also use a supplement form of this, from Thriving Pets. Just ensure the erythropoietin test is done first and discuss the options and testing with your vet before proceeding.
Tony
Hi Tony
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly with so much valuable info as usual.
So Chance is not on a phosphate binder at the moment as her phos levels have been in the normal range although slightly going up. 1.72 mmol/L ( range is 0.81-2.20). A few months ago (end of May) it was 1.53 and December 2015 phos was 1.31 mmol/L.
The Aventi Ks powder is a nutritional supplement promoting normal kidney function is made by Candioli and she has been on it for a few years now..since she was first diagnosed with kidney disease. My Vet suggested this. Ingredients are :
per 2 gram scoop : (she gets 3 scoops per day as she is about 43 lbs.
Fructooligosaccharides
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Vitamin C 100mg
B12 200 mcg
Folic Acid 4mg
Vitamin B6 10mg
Citrus bioflavonoids 100mg
Enterococcus Faecium
I will ask about the anemia test and start her on Forticor and milk thistle.
My Vet just also started her on 100 mg Gabapentin per day (at night) to help with pain management as she has been restless , panting and some pacing on and off through the night. No longer able to sleep in our bedroom with us as she has done all her life.
My Vet says this drug is ok for Kidney Disease in low doses unlike steroids and other pain meds. I just looked it up however and found that it is excreted solely through the kidneys and can cause toxicity.Now I am scared to give it. She just started this week has been on it for 3 nights.
Chance is also on fortiflora probiotic as she had Giardia a few months ago with lots of explosive diahrea that has taken weeks to get over. She was treated with Metroindazole which she is still taking and Fenbendazole for 5 days. Every time we try to stop the Metroindazole she gets diahrea in the house and falls in it as she is weak in the back end from arthritis. She is also taking 2 tablets a day of glucosamine Chondrotin and a cartriphen injection monthly.
Thanks,
Nancy
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly with so much valuable info as usual.
So Chance is not on a phosphate binder at the moment as her phos levels have been in the normal range although slightly going up. 1.72 mmol/L ( range is 0.81-2.20). A few months ago (end of May) it was 1.53 and December 2015 phos was 1.31 mmol/L.
The Aventi Ks powder is a nutritional supplement promoting normal kidney function is made by Candioli and she has been on it for a few years now..since she was first diagnosed with kidney disease. My Vet suggested this. Ingredients are :
per 2 gram scoop : (she gets 3 scoops per day as she is about 43 lbs.
Fructooligosaccharides
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Vitamin C 100mg
B12 200 mcg
Folic Acid 4mg
Vitamin B6 10mg
Citrus bioflavonoids 100mg
Enterococcus Faecium
I will ask about the anemia test and start her on Forticor and milk thistle.
My Vet just also started her on 100 mg Gabapentin per day (at night) to help with pain management as she has been restless , panting and some pacing on and off through the night. No longer able to sleep in our bedroom with us as she has done all her life.
My Vet says this drug is ok for Kidney Disease in low doses unlike steroids and other pain meds. I just looked it up however and found that it is excreted solely through the kidneys and can cause toxicity.Now I am scared to give it. She just started this week has been on it for 3 nights.
Chance is also on fortiflora probiotic as she had Giardia a few months ago with lots of explosive diahrea that has taken weeks to get over. She was treated with Metroindazole which she is still taking and Fenbendazole for 5 days. Every time we try to stop the Metroindazole she gets diahrea in the house and falls in it as she is weak in the back end from arthritis. She is also taking 2 tablets a day of glucosamine Chondrotin and a cartriphen injection monthly.
Thanks,
Nancy
me again...
I forgot to mention that Chance is also on Omeprazole anti-acid and her blood serum protein was normal but her urine protein test is slightly going up. 0.4 (reference range is 0.0-0.2). A month ago it was 0.3.
Thanks again,
Nancy
I forgot to mention that Chance is also on Omeprazole anti-acid and her blood serum protein was normal but her urine protein test is slightly going up. 0.4 (reference range is 0.0-0.2). A month ago it was 0.3.
Thanks again,
Nancy
Okay. Most of the meds are fine, as far as I am aware. Of course, all meds tend to be dealt with through the kidneys, so it's a Catch 22 scenario. I would certainly start a phosphate binder now(ish). There is growing evidence that starting one early is better - and I would tend to opt for aluminium hydroxide, if your vet agrees to it. The problem in delaying it (old school idea) is that parathyroid hormone starts to cause issues and calcium starts to be drawn from bone and teeth, because the body tries to get the balance between phosphorus and calcium right. But rising phosphorus just keeps causing the problem, so the body draws more and more calcium from bones and teeth, until hyperkalaemia occurs to compound things. More info on this in my Phosphate Binders article, which is available on my website.
Tony
Tony
Hi. Sorry you need to be here, but welcome anyway. This is more likely (but not necessarily) acute rather than chronic kidney problem, simply due to your dog's age. For now, it actually doesn't make much difference, as the treatment is exactly the same. If it's acute, your dog will recover and not continue to suffer the ill-effects of a degenerating disease, which sadly is what happens in chronic variants of kidney disease. I am curious about why your vet wants to "open her up" - there's absolutely no reason for this so do not allow them to do it, unless they suspect there is something other than kidney disease happening.
Your dog needs to be on IV Fluids - and I'm assuming that's what she is getting while at the vet's. Once that treatment has finished, you need to begin SubQ fluid therapy at home - a treatment that you need your vet to instruct you on.
New blood tests will be needed in a week's time to see if the fluid therapy has had any effect.
Your vet should also perform a urinalysis checking for protein leakage and any infections. They should also perform a blood pressure reading.
If this is acute kidney problems, then there will be a reason for it and that's usually something your dog may have eaten (including human medicines, household or garden chemicals, and other such substances). If it is chronic, then it may have been happening for many months and even some years, even though symptoms have only now started to show.
Hope this helps. Do let us know how things go.
Tony
Your dog needs to be on IV Fluids - and I'm assuming that's what she is getting while at the vet's. Once that treatment has finished, you need to begin SubQ fluid therapy at home - a treatment that you need your vet to instruct you on.
New blood tests will be needed in a week's time to see if the fluid therapy has had any effect.
Your vet should also perform a urinalysis checking for protein leakage and any infections. They should also perform a blood pressure reading.
If this is acute kidney problems, then there will be a reason for it and that's usually something your dog may have eaten (including human medicines, household or garden chemicals, and other such substances). If it is chronic, then it may have been happening for many months and even some years, even though symptoms have only now started to show.
Hope this helps. Do let us know how things go.
Tony
I guess I was in the wrong group. Rosie had closed pyometra. That's what was causing her kidneys to fail. Vet saw it too late. She was already too weak for surgery. She died this morning.
1 Comments
I am truly very sorry to hear that. Run free Rosie. :(
Well, according to the vet today, she's not in a very good state. If she gains strength tomorrow, they might have to open her up. If not, then it's just a matter of time before Rosie passes on. It's all happening waay too fast.
Hi. Just signed up on this group. Came back from the vet today. Brought our 6-yr old Lhasa Apso, Rosie for confinement. A week and a half ago, she just lost her appetite and was very lethargic and quiet. Then after 5 days, she seemed to get better on her own and started eating again. She also seemed active again. After two days, it was back to no eating with constant urination, drinking and vomiting. It just seemed so sudden.
Long story short, the first vet we brought her to conducted a blood test. BUN 13.5 (normal 2.9-10.0), creatinine 175.26 (normal 44-150), SGPT 35.2 (normal 10-109). I don't know what these numbers mean but when we transferred her to another vet (another story), we were told that she has kidney problems and that it's irreversible. She's confined at the clinic now for the next three days but we aren't sure yet what kind of kidney disease she has. There's chronic and there's acute right? We're just very worried and confused at this point. I hope we find out for sure what she has. I've been reading the posts here about kidney disease and it seems like it's something that most dogs won't live through and I feel very very sad. And guilty for not being with her now. I guess I'm here to find a little support. Rosie is our first dog. I didn't think one could be this emotional over a pet. It's no different from children.
Long story short, the first vet we brought her to conducted a blood test. BUN 13.5 (normal 2.9-10.0), creatinine 175.26 (normal 44-150), SGPT 35.2 (normal 10-109). I don't know what these numbers mean but when we transferred her to another vet (another story), we were told that she has kidney problems and that it's irreversible. She's confined at the clinic now for the next three days but we aren't sure yet what kind of kidney disease she has. There's chronic and there's acute right? We're just very worried and confused at this point. I hope we find out for sure what she has. I've been reading the posts here about kidney disease and it seems like it's something that most dogs won't live through and I feel very very sad. And guilty for not being with her now. I guess I'm here to find a little support. Rosie is our first dog. I didn't think one could be this emotional over a pet. It's no different from children.
Hi. I am new to the group. I have a 12.5 year old Shelty who has been diagnosed with early chronic renal failure about a month ago. I don't know the numbers but the vet said that he has given her a newer test which shows failure sooner. Her blood pressure was good. She is drinking a lot and regurgitating water a lot the last few days. She is now on a kd diet and taking Epakitin. The vet said that I should start giving Pepcid if Fleecey is doing a lot of vomiting. I assume that he means this regurgitating. Does that make sense? Thanks.
1 Comments
Hi and welcome to our Group. The test is likely to be the SDMA test. While that is very good at picking up kidneys issues early, it is not in itself a diagnostic test. Your vet will still need a full blood panel test, a urinalysis and a blood pressure check. Do make sure these are done. If she is indeed in early stage kidney failure, then a kd diet is inapproriate and could make things slightly worse. The important thing here is to get the blood test results, as we can then advise properly about diet and other management measures.
Tony
Tony
Hello Eric. Yes, creatinine 5.2 is suggesting final stages even at diagnosis. I think the fluids wouldn't have worked, probably because there was too little kidney tissue remaining. The disease destroys the organs bit by bit until there's not enough left to complete any level of function.
Again, I am very sorry for your loss.
Tony
Again, I am very sorry for your loss.
Tony
Hi. I am so sorry for your loss. Please accept my sincere condolences.
The loss of a pet dog is like no other loss. It runs very deep in many people (in my opinion, in the best of people). Our dogs are our friends, family, companions and confidants. More, they are at our side for most of their lives. They share our days, our adventures and our love and devotion. It is therefore no wonder we miss them so much when they have to leave us.
The big problem with kidney failure is it is firstly incurable. We can try our best to improve the function of the kidneys or make the work they need to do less stressful on health, but we cannot stop it. Second, unless we have an ultra-sound done every week, we cannot truly know how much of the organ remains functioning. In the end, the kidney may be struggling to work with perhaps only 10%-20% of tissue remaining - and that means a dog will decline rapidly, regardless of what a vet or an owner might do. In humans, there is both dialysis and (for some) transplantation ... but this is neither practical nor affordable for most dog owners.
Guilt about ending our best friend's suffering is a very common experience. But I believe you did all you possibly could and chose to help your best friend in the only way (and the right way) when the usual kidney management protocols stopped working. There is no need and no cause for guilt, but I do empathise and understand how and why you feel that way. If you can, try to remember what a wonderful life you gave her. Remember the happy times (that ultimately far outweighed the final days of her life). She was lucky to have had you as her owner - and you were lucky to have shared her life with her.
I hope the coming days and weeks see your grief start to subside. And we are here to talk to, if you need us.
Tony
The loss of a pet dog is like no other loss. It runs very deep in many people (in my opinion, in the best of people). Our dogs are our friends, family, companions and confidants. More, they are at our side for most of their lives. They share our days, our adventures and our love and devotion. It is therefore no wonder we miss them so much when they have to leave us.
The big problem with kidney failure is it is firstly incurable. We can try our best to improve the function of the kidneys or make the work they need to do less stressful on health, but we cannot stop it. Second, unless we have an ultra-sound done every week, we cannot truly know how much of the organ remains functioning. In the end, the kidney may be struggling to work with perhaps only 10%-20% of tissue remaining - and that means a dog will decline rapidly, regardless of what a vet or an owner might do. In humans, there is both dialysis and (for some) transplantation ... but this is neither practical nor affordable for most dog owners.
Guilt about ending our best friend's suffering is a very common experience. But I believe you did all you possibly could and chose to help your best friend in the only way (and the right way) when the usual kidney management protocols stopped working. There is no need and no cause for guilt, but I do empathise and understand how and why you feel that way. If you can, try to remember what a wonderful life you gave her. Remember the happy times (that ultimately far outweighed the final days of her life). She was lucky to have had you as her owner - and you were lucky to have shared her life with her.
I hope the coming days and weeks see your grief start to subside. And we are here to talk to, if you need us.
Tony
4 Comments
Tony, Thank you so much for all your kind words and support. I appreciate it and it means a lot to me.
It is still hard for me to accept that she is gone. Now I am asking myself, what if my vet was wrong about her condition giving her couple of days.
Can you tell anything about her last blood work. The numbers are above.
I wish I found that website earlier so maybe we could extend her life a bit longer.
And I don't understand why some vet doesn't want to treat that disease. I saw three different vets in Chicago and only one suggested to try treatment.
Thank you,
Eric.
It is still hard for me to accept that she is gone. Now I am asking myself, what if my vet was wrong about her condition giving her couple of days.
Can you tell anything about her last blood work. The numbers are above.
I wish I found that website earlier so maybe we could extend her life a bit longer.
And I don't understand why some vet doesn't want to treat that disease. I saw three different vets in Chicago and only one suggested to try treatment.
Thank you,
Eric.
Hi Eric. Well, that's a hard question to answer, because all dogs with this disease are so very different and while some do rally with good management, others simply don't no matter what might be tried. One thing I can say is that early stage 3 is not what the bloods tell me ... it looks to me like very late stage 3 or even early stage 4 (final stages). The phosphorus was very high, which means a phosphorus binder would have been needed to control more and more toxins being produced. She may have rallied with extensive IV fluid therapy, which would have needed to be undertaken at the vets for several days, followed by SubQ fluids given by yourself or the vet at home. A complete diet re-think would also have been needed. The point I'm trying to make is it would have been very intensive and very expensive to attempt, and with no guarantee of success. In the end, you made the decision along with your vet's advice, and rather than second-guess what management and treatment might have achieved, be contented knowing you and your vet feel you did the right thing at the right time - and more importantly, you did it to help prevent further suffering.
I know how hard it is. But try to think about the years of happy times you both shared. Times that you supplied.
Tony
I know how hard it is. But try to think about the years of happy times you both shared. Times that you supplied.
Tony
Hey Tony. Thank you again for all the support.
About four weeks before the Valentine's Day we took her to the vet for blood check up and at that time her creatine was 5.2
I don't recall the rest blood work. We immidietly started IV fluids for three days, 10 hours per day.
After the three days IV fluids we did a blood work again and the vet said it didn't go well as she planned. She said continue medication, diet and SubQ fluids at home, every day 100 ml. So we did it for almost four weeks, every day but it didn't help to flush out her toxins. She got really sick four days before Valentine's Day. And Lili was 7 lbs.
Thank you.
Eric
About four weeks before the Valentine's Day we took her to the vet for blood check up and at that time her creatine was 5.2
I don't recall the rest blood work. We immidietly started IV fluids for three days, 10 hours per day.
After the three days IV fluids we did a blood work again and the vet said it didn't go well as she planned. She said continue medication, diet and SubQ fluids at home, every day 100 ml. So we did it for almost four weeks, every day but it didn't help to flush out her toxins. She got really sick four days before Valentine's Day. And Lili was 7 lbs.
Thank you.
Eric
I am slowly letting her go but still feel guilty that I didn't put her to the hospital. I just didn't want her to suffer more. Last four days she was so poor and uncomfortable.
Hey all. On Valentine's Day I lost my Yorkie, Lili she was 12. She was diagnosed 10 months ago with early stage 3. We did a lot of effort to safe her, but she didn't response well for any treatment given. Her last blood work from 2/13/15. Creatine 4.6, BUN 130, phosphorus 16.1. Last four days suddenly she got very sick, bad breath, no eating, barely drank water, strong seizure and paralyzed on the left side, she didn't want to be touched at all, she started pooping with blood, slept nonstop, lost balance too. We decided to help her with that suffering and we put her to sleep on Valentine's Day. I still feel guilty of that decision and question myself maybe I didn't do enough to safe her.
How you all deal with a loss?
Thanks, Eric.
How you all deal with a loss?
Thanks, Eric.
I am not sure how to join the group. I did set up a user and password but I'm not sure I joined the group. My five year old yorkie is in kidney failure, probably from eating chicken jerky her whole life. She was diagnosed May 2015 right before her fifth birthday. After an initial round of IV's, Azodyl twice a day and Science Diet K/D dog food she did well for about three months and then she was readmitted for more fluid treatment. Now it seems she is admitted for 3-4 day intervals about once every six weeks. She is back again today. Her BUN levels were 52 today and she has refused food for two days. She weighs 4 pounds and is like my child. I know she is frightened to death. I cannot imagine my life without her. I am glad I found this group.
1 Comments
Hi. Yes you have joined the group. There has been a huge problem with chicken jerky (mainly originating from China but sometimes packaged selling from USA) for several years. I think I wrote about it about 5yrs ago on some of the dog sites. You and your vet should report the problem to the FDA (as they are still investigating it and gathering data).
Okay. Kidney disease can start out as acute - but then develop into chronic kidney disease. This is because a large amount of organ tissue is destroyed during the poisoning. In a dog so young, there is the chance of recovery as long as it is caught early enough and not too much of the kidneys become destroyed. I suspect, in this case, the kidneys have been severely compromised - which means this is now a chronic condition.
Can you ask your vet for the blood and urine test results from the point of diagnosis. They should have these on their records (unless you have them in your possession). Please post these results for me to look at.
Can you then also post a full set of the latest results. I am particularly interested in creatinine, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, sodium, PVC and haemoglobin. But if there are others, please just post all of them (remember to put the unit of measure after each one).
Next, has your vet done a blood pressure check? If not, it needs doing.
Has there been a recent urine sample test for specific gravity, protein leakage and any infection. If not, this also needs doing.
Is the Science kd diet you mention the Hills canned variety?
If she is refusing food, please ask the vet to prescribe Mirtzapine. This should help improve nausea, appetite and anxiety all at the same time.
Tony
Okay. Kidney disease can start out as acute - but then develop into chronic kidney disease. This is because a large amount of organ tissue is destroyed during the poisoning. In a dog so young, there is the chance of recovery as long as it is caught early enough and not too much of the kidneys become destroyed. I suspect, in this case, the kidneys have been severely compromised - which means this is now a chronic condition.
Can you ask your vet for the blood and urine test results from the point of diagnosis. They should have these on their records (unless you have them in your possession). Please post these results for me to look at.
Can you then also post a full set of the latest results. I am particularly interested in creatinine, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, sodium, PVC and haemoglobin. But if there are others, please just post all of them (remember to put the unit of measure after each one).
Next, has your vet done a blood pressure check? If not, it needs doing.
Has there been a recent urine sample test for specific gravity, protein leakage and any infection. If not, this also needs doing.
Is the Science kd diet you mention the Hills canned variety?
If she is refusing food, please ask the vet to prescribe Mirtzapine. This should help improve nausea, appetite and anxiety all at the same time.
Tony
Hi Nancy.
Dry dog food has NIL water content, other than water that is added. But the important point about all dry dog food is it is always always always less nutritious than a good quality canned dog food. Dry food also generally contains far more bad things ... more preservatives, more colourants and more chemicals. All these things can lead to kidney failure - and they certainly are not good for a dog that already has kidney failure. So, my advice, never feed any dog with dry food, not ever. It was designed for human convenience at the expense of dog health.
Raw diets are actually interesting. They have become more popular in recent years, partly due to dog owners feeling that manufactured dog food has a variety of health concerns. Owners are also getting told how it is a more natural diet for dogs, whose ancestors were of course wild wolves. But all of this is only part of the truth. Dogs today are very different from their ancestors. Multiple breeding techniques have caused extreme changes to domesticated dogs. Could we call a Pug a wolf today ... NO ... so why should we expect him to eat a diet a wolf would choose.
There are lots of other issues about raw dog food ... mainly about quality of the meat, how and where to store it and whether it has enough nutritional value on its own. In most cases only the highest quality sourced meats are suitable as a raw diet for dogs, and this can be very expensive to obtain. It must be stored in a spotlessly clean cold area, such as a fridge, and must be used within a specified time (as with all meats). More importantly, all meats develop bacteria over time, and the bacteria can be more harmful to humans coming in to contact with it than the dogs that are eating it, so this must also be considered when storing raw foods. And as for nutritional value ... it's usual for raw diets to have various vitamins and other supplements added, as this is necessary to maintain good health of the dog.
Raw diets are a complex issue. Generally speaking, I advocate raw diets as a healthy choice, but only if it is started at a young age and if the meat obtained is of the very highest quality. I would strongly suggest you read up on the subject - just Google raw diets for dogs, and you'll find lots of information.
Onto other matters ... at 15, Chance is an elderly dog and some muscle and weight loss is expected. However, it would be interesting to see what the current blood values say, so I would certainly get a repeat test done as soon as you can. It may be that she has moved into stage 3 by now, in which case some tweaking of the diet will be necessary.
Tony
Dry dog food has NIL water content, other than water that is added. But the important point about all dry dog food is it is always always always less nutritious than a good quality canned dog food. Dry food also generally contains far more bad things ... more preservatives, more colourants and more chemicals. All these things can lead to kidney failure - and they certainly are not good for a dog that already has kidney failure. So, my advice, never feed any dog with dry food, not ever. It was designed for human convenience at the expense of dog health.
Raw diets are actually interesting. They have become more popular in recent years, partly due to dog owners feeling that manufactured dog food has a variety of health concerns. Owners are also getting told how it is a more natural diet for dogs, whose ancestors were of course wild wolves. But all of this is only part of the truth. Dogs today are very different from their ancestors. Multiple breeding techniques have caused extreme changes to domesticated dogs. Could we call a Pug a wolf today ... NO ... so why should we expect him to eat a diet a wolf would choose.
There are lots of other issues about raw dog food ... mainly about quality of the meat, how and where to store it and whether it has enough nutritional value on its own. In most cases only the highest quality sourced meats are suitable as a raw diet for dogs, and this can be very expensive to obtain. It must be stored in a spotlessly clean cold area, such as a fridge, and must be used within a specified time (as with all meats). More importantly, all meats develop bacteria over time, and the bacteria can be more harmful to humans coming in to contact with it than the dogs that are eating it, so this must also be considered when storing raw foods. And as for nutritional value ... it's usual for raw diets to have various vitamins and other supplements added, as this is necessary to maintain good health of the dog.
Raw diets are a complex issue. Generally speaking, I advocate raw diets as a healthy choice, but only if it is started at a young age and if the meat obtained is of the very highest quality. I would strongly suggest you read up on the subject - just Google raw diets for dogs, and you'll find lots of information.
Onto other matters ... at 15, Chance is an elderly dog and some muscle and weight loss is expected. However, it would be interesting to see what the current blood values say, so I would certainly get a repeat test done as soon as you can. It may be that she has moved into stage 3 by now, in which case some tweaking of the diet will be necessary.
Tony
Hi Tony,
I'm back. Since we lost our precious Doogan, I have been off the site trying to get through all the grief and my depression. He sure did take a huge space in our lives and heart.
Thanks for answering me about Chance and the Aventi KS, omega 3 and vitamin e.
Chance's weight at present is 20.7 kg which is 45.5 lbs.
You mention that you could help with appropriate doses of omega 3 and vitamin e ??
Also, I have been thinking more and more about the diet we feed our fur kids. When Chance was diagnosed with chronic stage 2 kidney disease a couple of years ago, we were told to take her off of Fromm dry food ( which we always added water to) and at our Vet's recommendation, we put her on Royal Canine Mature Consult. ( Mixing dry with canned). We add a lot of water to it and mix it all up with her Aventi KS . She loves it. Her values were just re-checked in November 2015 and they had come down slightly. She just turned 15 in December and is part Husky part lab. We do find that although her values have come down a bit which was good, she appears to have lost lean body mass and is very boney. She also has arthritis and is on monthly cartriphen injections and daily UBASPORT advanced joint care (Glucosamine and Chondroitin sulphate.
What is your thought about Royal Canine Mature Consult? It is very pricey and I have heard not very good things.
AND we are thinking about getting a young healthy dog and I am very stressed about about what to feed him. Lots of people say that Orijen is excellent--high protein and grain free but it is dry food. They say to add water to it. Others told me to go to the raw diet as it is high in protein and moisture. I know that All dry dog food is only 10% moisture . We don't want to feed raw as our neighbour's dog was eating raw food and died from bone fragments. I really need help. I have had 2 dogs with kidney issues ( one acute and one chronic) and for many years, they both ate Fromm dry with water added to it. Can you suggest anything ?
Thanks ,
Nancy
I'm back. Since we lost our precious Doogan, I have been off the site trying to get through all the grief and my depression. He sure did take a huge space in our lives and heart.
Thanks for answering me about Chance and the Aventi KS, omega 3 and vitamin e.
Chance's weight at present is 20.7 kg which is 45.5 lbs.
You mention that you could help with appropriate doses of omega 3 and vitamin e ??
Also, I have been thinking more and more about the diet we feed our fur kids. When Chance was diagnosed with chronic stage 2 kidney disease a couple of years ago, we were told to take her off of Fromm dry food ( which we always added water to) and at our Vet's recommendation, we put her on Royal Canine Mature Consult. ( Mixing dry with canned). We add a lot of water to it and mix it all up with her Aventi KS . She loves it. Her values were just re-checked in November 2015 and they had come down slightly. She just turned 15 in December and is part Husky part lab. We do find that although her values have come down a bit which was good, she appears to have lost lean body mass and is very boney. She also has arthritis and is on monthly cartriphen injections and daily UBASPORT advanced joint care (Glucosamine and Chondroitin sulphate.
What is your thought about Royal Canine Mature Consult? It is very pricey and I have heard not very good things.
AND we are thinking about getting a young healthy dog and I am very stressed about about what to feed him. Lots of people say that Orijen is excellent--high protein and grain free but it is dry food. They say to add water to it. Others told me to go to the raw diet as it is high in protein and moisture. I know that All dry dog food is only 10% moisture . We don't want to feed raw as our neighbour's dog was eating raw food and died from bone fragments. I really need help. I have had 2 dogs with kidney issues ( one acute and one chronic) and for many years, they both ate Fromm dry with water added to it. Can you suggest anything ?
Thanks ,
Nancy
Hi. A mixture of good news and bad news then, but mostly good. The poor walking and ability to stand is usually connected with muscle wastage and/or neurological pathways being destroyed. Your vet may have ideas on supplements to help - if not, come back and ask the group for ideas. Glad you managed to join okay ... I know MedHelp don't make it a very easy route, despite me constantly asking for them to simplify things.
Tony
Tony
Hi Tony! I finally figured out how to join the group...I've been reading the links you have sent me today and I just want to thank you for the information. It has alleviated some of my stress regarding my dog Buzz. For those in the group, Buzz is a 16 year old Bichon who was diagnosed with stage 4 kidney failure. I thought I only had a few days left with him and I was in a state of shock and panic but all the information I've received from Tony has been more than helpful. Buzz has been having a difficult time standing up and walking. I've been having to carry him to his water bowl and to his wee wee pad since its been far too cold out for him. Today, when I left for work I left Buzz in his bed tucked with a blanket and when I came home for lunch I was happy to see that he had left his bed, gone to the bathroom (pooped normally), and was looking for food! While I know his kidneys will not be back to what they used to be, I am just glad to see that his appetite has not decreased. He is still sleeping an awful lot, very lethargic, but still tries to get up and figure things out for himself. Like I said in my initial post, he has the heart of a champion. I have a follow up appointment with his vet on Thursday to figure out his care as his kidneys aren't the only concern, I'm also worried about his ability to walk and just his quality of life. Thank you again Tony for this forum and the information.
Nancy, I just saw this post and I want you to know that we all know what you are going through. I had to have our Shadow put to sleep just a few weeks ago because of his rapid descent into Stage 4 kidney failure, and I still wake up each morning thinking I'd better get up and get him out for his walk. The hole they leave is amazingly huge. You did everything you could for Doogan and then some. Just know that we are with you.
Cheryl
Cheryl
1 Comments
Hi Cheryl,
I am so sorry for your loss as well. By the way, I love the name Shadow and ShadowNose. The loss is HUGE. These fur kids are so very special. We love them so much ( more than words can say) and we want to do the best for them and give them every fighting chance possible. Kidney disease is a horrible disease!!!
With the thought of one day getting another dog, I am struggling with what to feed him. There is so much debate over what to feed dry( with water added to it) vs wet( canned) vs raw. Which company and why. My God .
I guess I am still questioning how my Doogan got so sick with acute end stage kidney disease and am wondering if diet at all played a role.
Thanks for the support,
Nancy
I am so sorry for your loss as well. By the way, I love the name Shadow and ShadowNose. The loss is HUGE. These fur kids are so very special. We love them so much ( more than words can say) and we want to do the best for them and give them every fighting chance possible. Kidney disease is a horrible disease!!!
With the thought of one day getting another dog, I am struggling with what to feed him. There is so much debate over what to feed dry( with water added to it) vs wet( canned) vs raw. Which company and why. My God .
I guess I am still questioning how my Doogan got so sick with acute end stage kidney disease and am wondering if diet at all played a role.
Thanks for the support,
Nancy
Hi Tony,
I feel so lucky to have "met" you with all your compassion and knowledge.
So I was going to finish up Doogan's omega 3 capsules. Chance is twice his size. Then I will buy salmon oil as you suggest . I already looked for it and found a brand named Grizzly. Have you heard of this?
Re the Vitamin E ... Is there a special dose for the dog's weight for this as well ? Do I purchase this at my vet? I wonder why no one told me about vitamin E for my Doogan?? Have you heard of the Aventi KS supplement that she has been taking for the past couple of years ? I wonder if there is vitamin E in that?
In your opinion for a chronic stage 2 do you think the omega is a good idea ?
Truly,
Nancy
I feel so lucky to have "met" you with all your compassion and knowledge.
So I was going to finish up Doogan's omega 3 capsules. Chance is twice his size. Then I will buy salmon oil as you suggest . I already looked for it and found a brand named Grizzly. Have you heard of this?
Re the Vitamin E ... Is there a special dose for the dog's weight for this as well ? Do I purchase this at my vet? I wonder why no one told me about vitamin E for my Doogan?? Have you heard of the Aventi KS supplement that she has been taking for the past couple of years ? I wonder if there is vitamin E in that?
In your opinion for a chronic stage 2 do you think the omega is a good idea ?
Truly,
Nancy
2 Comments
Omega-3 is good for all dogs. It has some good and beneficial properties in it. Yes, there is a fairly strict Vit E and omega-3 regime according to the weight of each dog. Let me know what Chance weighs and I'll work out the dosages for you.
Aventi KS seems to be a good Vit B12 supplement, as well as some probiotic elements. Always give this with food and keep to the maximum feeding guidelines of the manufacturer, according to weight of the dog.
Tony
Aventi KS seems to be a good Vit B12 supplement, as well as some probiotic elements. Always give this with food and keep to the maximum feeding guidelines of the manufacturer, according to weight of the dog.
Tony
Hi Tony,
I'm back. Since we lost our precious Doogan, I have been off the site trying to get through all the grief and my depression. He sure did take a huge space in our lives and heart.
Thanks for answering me about Chance and the Aventi KS, omega 3 and vitamin e.
Chance's weight at present is 20.7 kg which is 45.5 lbs.
You mention that you could help with appropriate doses of omega 3 and vitamin e ??
Also, I have been thinking more and more about the diet we feed our fur kids. When Chance was diagnosed with chronic stage 2 kidney disease a couple of years ago, we were told to take her off of Fromm dry food ( which we always added water to) and at our Vet's recommendation, we put her on Royal Canine Mature Consult. ( Mixing dry with canned). We add a lot of water to it and mix it all up with her Aventi KS . She loves it. Her values were just re-checked in November 2015 and they had come down slightly. She just turned 15 in December and is part Husky part lab. We do find that although her values have come down a bit which was good, she appears to have lost lean body mass and is very boney. She also has arthritis and is on monthly cartriphen injections and daily UBASPORT advanced joint care (Glucosamine and Chondroitin sulphate.
What is your thought about Royal Canine Mature Consult? It is very pricey and I have heard not very good things.
AND we are thinking about getting a young healthy dog and I am very stressed about about what to feed him. Lots of people say that Orijen is excellent--high protein and grain free but it is dry food. They say to add water to it. Others told me to go to the raw diet as it is high in protein and moisture. I know that All dry dog food is only 10% moisture . We don't want to feed raw as our neighbour's dog was eating raw food and died from bone fragments. I really need help. I have had 2 dogs with kidney issues ( one acute and one chronic) and for many years, they both ate Fromm dry with water added to it. Can you suggest anything ?
Thanks ,
Nancy
I'm back. Since we lost our precious Doogan, I have been off the site trying to get through all the grief and my depression. He sure did take a huge space in our lives and heart.
Thanks for answering me about Chance and the Aventi KS, omega 3 and vitamin e.
Chance's weight at present is 20.7 kg which is 45.5 lbs.
You mention that you could help with appropriate doses of omega 3 and vitamin e ??
Also, I have been thinking more and more about the diet we feed our fur kids. When Chance was diagnosed with chronic stage 2 kidney disease a couple of years ago, we were told to take her off of Fromm dry food ( which we always added water to) and at our Vet's recommendation, we put her on Royal Canine Mature Consult. ( Mixing dry with canned). We add a lot of water to it and mix it all up with her Aventi KS . She loves it. Her values were just re-checked in November 2015 and they had come down slightly. She just turned 15 in December and is part Husky part lab. We do find that although her values have come down a bit which was good, she appears to have lost lean body mass and is very boney. She also has arthritis and is on monthly cartriphen injections and daily UBASPORT advanced joint care (Glucosamine and Chondroitin sulphate.
What is your thought about Royal Canine Mature Consult? It is very pricey and I have heard not very good things.
AND we are thinking about getting a young healthy dog and I am very stressed about about what to feed him. Lots of people say that Orijen is excellent--high protein and grain free but it is dry food. They say to add water to it. Others told me to go to the raw diet as it is high in protein and moisture. I know that All dry dog food is only 10% moisture . We don't want to feed raw as our neighbour's dog was eating raw food and died from bone fragments. I really need help. I have had 2 dogs with kidney issues ( one acute and one chronic) and for many years, they both ate Fromm dry with water added to it. Can you suggest anything ?
Thanks ,
Nancy
Hi. These are the hardest of days - and nights - as many of us know only too well. It takes time. I just wanted to add a brief bit of info as you mentioned starting giving Omega-3 to Chance. The best and cheapest Omega-3 is actually pure salmon oil (you only need give about half a teaspoon, so a standard bottle of about a litre lasts forever. The pills are fine, but usually a bit expensive, and omega-3 must be given according to dog size and weight as overdose can actually occur. Perhaps the most important thing about all Omega-3 is that it inhibits the absorption of vitamin E, which makes it essential you also give chance a Vitamin E supplement. You can buy these specially for dogs in capsule form.
Reagrds,
Tony
Reagrds,
Tony
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