Aa
Illegal Immigrants
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/national_world&id=8314997
http://www.startribune.com/business/128019518.html
http://www.startribune.com/business/128019518.html
I think I understand what you meant when you said above 'they are already here, so why not let them work and pay taxes.". In one respect that almost seems logical. They could pay taxes and lessen some burden somewhere along the line. My impression of that is that your throwing out an open invitation to everyone... "Come on over. They won't run you off and there are services in place that are "free" and will help you get your start here".
Free is the most misused word in the English language, or any language for that matter. The funding for programs that "look" free are actually costing tax payers money. Some of these programs run on grants, but even then they are perpetuation the problem. You get more and more people taking advantage of a "free' service before they have paid a tax in this country.... fiscally and in my own opinion, that just doesn't make any sense.
Philanthropically speaking, if you have a billion dollars and you want to donate it all to the causes of your choice, go right ahead. It's your money and your belief... good on ya, and more people should step up in regards to things like this. However...however... if your causes harbor, aid or assist unlawfulness... that too makes you a criminal. (We've got a "service" here that is only for illegal hispanics. It helps them find their way to becomeing legal after being here illegal for a while, and also pays for legal costs surrounding these issues.) Oviously, this program only being available for illegal hispanics shows quite a bit of racial bias. Why not the illegal eastern Europeans? We've got many, many illegals from eastern Europe here......
All of this is a giant problem. Personally, I think we are spending money regarding illegal immigration quicker than we can recoup any of it. Take person "A". He's here illegally, so is his wife and they now have children born here. We spend $20,000 getting person "A" legal status. Person "A" has a job making $25,000 a year, so in order to feed and house his family, he is now on government assistance programs, something that he didn't qualify for previously. (There are programs helping illegals. Totally another cost on a different level.) So... if person "A" donated the grand majority of his wages to cover the debt of "getting" him legal status, he'd only have $5,000 to pay the bills.... the government programs kick back in and help feed, clothe, and hose "A" and his family. Anyhow, thats just a very basic model of how the current system keeps self perpetuating it's problems.
Now, I know good and well that a great deal of our immigrants come to this country, bust their humps and do so legally. These individuals end up being the fiber that this country was built on... your country as well. Some of these people become some of the nations success stories, and it is truly wonderful when it works out this way. But there are so many more people that fall through the cracks and end up being a financial "obligation/burden" on the system.
What is happening now is the systems fault and those in charge of said system. $338,000,000,000 annually!!! In 3 years, that is over $1 trillion dollars... a sizable portion of the nations deficit. Obviously you cannot wipe out all of the debt in this fashion, but there has to be something, somewhere within this system where we can trim the fat. Surely deporting everyone isn't the answer, but inviting every potential illegal over isn't going to solve a problem either. By being as relaxed with the laws as we are now (Obama has been deporting people and trying to gain ground here), we simply have left an open invitation to anyone who is considering entering this country illegally. Your chances of staying are equal to being deported, and any gambler would take those odds.
Free is the most misused word in the English language, or any language for that matter. The funding for programs that "look" free are actually costing tax payers money. Some of these programs run on grants, but even then they are perpetuation the problem. You get more and more people taking advantage of a "free' service before they have paid a tax in this country.... fiscally and in my own opinion, that just doesn't make any sense.
Philanthropically speaking, if you have a billion dollars and you want to donate it all to the causes of your choice, go right ahead. It's your money and your belief... good on ya, and more people should step up in regards to things like this. However...however... if your causes harbor, aid or assist unlawfulness... that too makes you a criminal. (We've got a "service" here that is only for illegal hispanics. It helps them find their way to becomeing legal after being here illegal for a while, and also pays for legal costs surrounding these issues.) Oviously, this program only being available for illegal hispanics shows quite a bit of racial bias. Why not the illegal eastern Europeans? We've got many, many illegals from eastern Europe here......
All of this is a giant problem. Personally, I think we are spending money regarding illegal immigration quicker than we can recoup any of it. Take person "A". He's here illegally, so is his wife and they now have children born here. We spend $20,000 getting person "A" legal status. Person "A" has a job making $25,000 a year, so in order to feed and house his family, he is now on government assistance programs, something that he didn't qualify for previously. (There are programs helping illegals. Totally another cost on a different level.) So... if person "A" donated the grand majority of his wages to cover the debt of "getting" him legal status, he'd only have $5,000 to pay the bills.... the government programs kick back in and help feed, clothe, and hose "A" and his family. Anyhow, thats just a very basic model of how the current system keeps self perpetuating it's problems.
Now, I know good and well that a great deal of our immigrants come to this country, bust their humps and do so legally. These individuals end up being the fiber that this country was built on... your country as well. Some of these people become some of the nations success stories, and it is truly wonderful when it works out this way. But there are so many more people that fall through the cracks and end up being a financial "obligation/burden" on the system.
What is happening now is the systems fault and those in charge of said system. $338,000,000,000 annually!!! In 3 years, that is over $1 trillion dollars... a sizable portion of the nations deficit. Obviously you cannot wipe out all of the debt in this fashion, but there has to be something, somewhere within this system where we can trim the fat. Surely deporting everyone isn't the answer, but inviting every potential illegal over isn't going to solve a problem either. By being as relaxed with the laws as we are now (Obama has been deporting people and trying to gain ground here), we simply have left an open invitation to anyone who is considering entering this country illegally. Your chances of staying are equal to being deported, and any gambler would take those odds.
Sorry Brice... that should read:
$338,000,000,000 / 20,000,000 = $16,900/ea
A "small" typo, sorry.
(Actually, that's the kind of typo a politician would make, so maybe I'd fit right in, in Washington DC after all!!!)
$338,000,000,000 / 20,000,000 = $16,900/ea
A "small" typo, sorry.
(Actually, that's the kind of typo a politician would make, so maybe I'd fit right in, in Washington DC after all!!!)
$338,000,000 divided by 20,000,000 = $16,9000/illegal Mexicans in the US (approx)
If you took the money that the US spends in ONE year, and divided it amongst the 20M illegal aliens (Mexicans) living here, you could give EACH one of the $16,900.
That's enough money for us to deport each and every one of them back to Mexico.
There are illegals from other countries here in the US, of course, but the Mexicans are a fantastic place to start.
And that's a ONE YEAR spend. Hell, give them 2 years worth... just leave our country, because you're killing it (well, you're not helping the situation anyway).
If you took the money that the US spends in ONE year, and divided it amongst the 20M illegal aliens (Mexicans) living here, you could give EACH one of the $16,900.
That's enough money for us to deport each and every one of them back to Mexico.
There are illegals from other countries here in the US, of course, but the Mexicans are a fantastic place to start.
And that's a ONE YEAR spend. Hell, give them 2 years worth... just leave our country, because you're killing it (well, you're not helping the situation anyway).
Wow, that's an awful lot of money. Not really all that surprising though if you think about it. So really, it looks like step 1 is properly securing the borders to prevent the issue from getting worse. But how do they do that? Especially in times of fiscal restraint. It seems no real easy (or inexpensive) answers here.
I totally agree.
Since we're on the topic, check out fairus.org. From what I'm gathering, all of the statistics are coming from government records regarding illegal immigration. The site, (assuming that the statistics are correct) paints a real good picture of whats been happening for the last couple of decades. (One figure I ran over said over $338 billion dollars is spend annually on issues pertaining to illegal immigration..... is this acceptable?)
And it stinks that the majority of illegal immigrants are Mexican, but this isn't about race and it doesn't even need to be played that way. Keep it a legal issue. If someone, anyone is here illegally, it is against the law. I understand the "want" to have your family experience everything this country has to offer, so help them achieve their legal status. It is the right thing to do.
And it stinks that the majority of illegal immigrants are Mexican, but this isn't about race and it doesn't even need to be played that way. Keep it a legal issue. If someone, anyone is here illegally, it is against the law. I understand the "want" to have your family experience everything this country has to offer, so help them achieve their legal status. It is the right thing to do.
I am an Immigrant so I would never oppose the Mexicans being here and to be honest I wouldn't send the children back to Mexico because their parents were illegal I would never vote for that,. I guess when you have struggled to bring your own family here legally and its not only expensive, it takes years as it goes onto a ballot system .it colors your attitude a bit.I told em hey do what they are all doing come stay, join the rest of them,.but of course they wont do that ....
I know, but I am talking about those legally here, and I just think if life was fair, the more physical work you do, the more pay you should get.
When they send that money back across the Border, it is way more than someone sitting in an office in nice clothes.
One thing I wanted to add.
I am not opposed to Mexian immigrants legally being here. The key word is LEGAL.
I have a lot of respect for those who are hard workers. In fact, many of them do things we think we are above doing. Difficult jobs like working in a hotel or hospital laundry. Things like working in fields picking produce. These are truly back breaking jobs. I really believe these people are so needed here and are so important, that I personally think they should be paid way more than someone sitting in an office in nice clothes.
I am not opposed to Mexian immigrants legally being here. The key word is LEGAL.
I have a lot of respect for those who are hard workers. In fact, many of them do things we think we are above doing. Difficult jobs like working in a hotel or hospital laundry. Things like working in fields picking produce. These are truly back breaking jobs. I really believe these people are so needed here and are so important, that I personally think they should be paid way more than someone sitting in an office in nice clothes.
Well I totally disagree with us born here people having to learn spanish. Ridiculous. I will hold my ground when I say if they gonna come here, learn the language. Altho I am not sure there is a chosen language for our country officially. I would assume it would be English?
We have two official languages here, so everything is in French and English. However, you are pretty much expected to learn at least one of them (French is pretty much only if you move to Quebec). Our schools to have classes, and there are adult classes as well available for those learning English. Yes, we still have those that don't, but for the most part, people seem eager to do so.
I still think that laws are laws and should apply to one and all, no exceptions. I think to do otherwise is to create divides instead of unity, and once resentment starts to build, it's tough to stop.
I do think we should expect that some will attempt to get away with things...that's kind of human nature. Heck, there are lots of rules I wish we didn't have, and I suppose if I could avoid them, I would. But strong messages need to be sent that it's not acceptable. As Brice said, the US and Canada are unique in that we are built on immigration. I'm actually proud of that. It's tough to compare things to other countries who were not founded on the same principals. But part of moving here for my ancestors was to conform to the the rules and regulations, and that shouldn't change. Keep your own cultural and religious beliefs. Worship the way you wish. Just do it within the boundaries of the law.
I still think that laws are laws and should apply to one and all, no exceptions. I think to do otherwise is to create divides instead of unity, and once resentment starts to build, it's tough to stop.
I do think we should expect that some will attempt to get away with things...that's kind of human nature. Heck, there are lots of rules I wish we didn't have, and I suppose if I could avoid them, I would. But strong messages need to be sent that it's not acceptable. As Brice said, the US and Canada are unique in that we are built on immigration. I'm actually proud of that. It's tough to compare things to other countries who were not founded on the same principals. But part of moving here for my ancestors was to conform to the the rules and regulations, and that shouldn't change. Keep your own cultural and religious beliefs. Worship the way you wish. Just do it within the boundaries of the law.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-28/opinion/navarrette.dream.obama_1_immigration-law-illegal-immigrants-deporting-dreamers?_s=PM:OPINION
Sorry for the typo's I really do have a problem hitting the keys ..I need a board with larger ones .
In California they don't have to learn English its all in other languages for them mostly spanish bit now also Chinese and Korean.. all the utility bills have an extra page in spanish and also help a page in Chinese.If you use the phone its press 1 for English press 2 for spanish some .road signs are in spanish . So why should they bother when I called animal out they sent a spanish speaking officer , who in fact let the perps of animal abuse keep the dogs . Try libving amongst it...its really great ...not . I dont think Mexico does this for English speaking who go there and in Europe you would get yelled at by the French if you expected them to speak your language ..got to laugh really as I say this area is in fact part of Mexico now.By the way our President when he first took office did in fact come out and speak about immigration and he said we should learn Spanish ...
I know what you are saying and I feel the same way. Both this nation and Canada are made up of immigrants. Without immigrants, what would either of these nations look like? Probably way less than either looks today, in every meaning of the word less. The bottom line is, there are good people and bad people, race notwithstanding.
I don't think we need to cater to anyones needs in this country. We have a set of laws that apply to all people within these borders, so like it or leave it. You think it ***** here? Good. Go back home and write me a letter telling me all about it. This country affords everyone of its citizens the same rights, regardless of when you became a citizen. WE even treat people here illegally far better than some have known in their own country.
Come here, learn the language, contribute to society, pay your taxes, and welcome aboard. Glad to have you!
I don't think we need to cater to anyones needs in this country. We have a set of laws that apply to all people within these borders, so like it or leave it. You think it ***** here? Good. Go back home and write me a letter telling me all about it. This country affords everyone of its citizens the same rights, regardless of when you became a citizen. WE even treat people here illegally far better than some have known in their own country.
Come here, learn the language, contribute to society, pay your taxes, and welcome aboard. Glad to have you!
Basically some of the articles are legal not just illegal. Illegal was the 5 that sued for being detained after 9/11
The whole thing with special treatment gets me so once i started I lumped it all together..
Anyway....I dont hate these people, I just dont want people coming her and wanting what they feel are their rights, when in reality, they go for special treatment. (not all, but some)
I do want to add, that I believe there are many wonderful immigrants. VERY MANY. Its a few that give the bad name.
The whole thing with special treatment gets me so once i started I lumped it all together..
Anyway....I dont hate these people, I just dont want people coming her and wanting what they feel are their rights, when in reality, they go for special treatment. (not all, but some)
I do want to add, that I believe there are many wonderful immigrants. VERY MANY. Its a few that give the bad name.
This is what I mean...a muslim woman at first did have her drivers license taken with her face hidden. Then 9/11 happened and she was ordered to re-take it. Then she sued for the right. Thankfully she lost. Interestingly she also used the modesty excuse to keep her children from being checked for bruises. In this case I think she was from the US, not an immigrant.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-06-06-license-veil_x.htm
This next article you may or may not accept as legit...but I remember hearing this... 5 ILLIEGAL muslims sue and won for being detained after 9/11 (they were here illegally they should have been detained)
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/nov/u-s-gives-illegal-alien-muslims-1-26-million
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2008/10/buckman_everyone_into_the_mult.html
(people insisting everyone cater to their specialities. This is something more and more states are finding themselves having to accomodate) I dont believe its ok to swim with men either, but swimming is not a NEED, its a desire. Do I go and tell my town they have to now find a way to hire a woman lifeguard and have just a women only swim time?
The object as usual, is people come here and want us to cater to them.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-06-06-license-veil_x.htm
This next article you may or may not accept as legit...but I remember hearing this... 5 ILLIEGAL muslims sue and won for being detained after 9/11 (they were here illegally they should have been detained)
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/nov/u-s-gives-illegal-alien-muslims-1-26-million
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2008/10/buckman_everyone_into_the_mult.html
(people insisting everyone cater to their specialities. This is something more and more states are finding themselves having to accomodate) I dont believe its ok to swim with men either, but swimming is not a NEED, its a desire. Do I go and tell my town they have to now find a way to hire a woman lifeguard and have just a women only swim time?
The object as usual, is people come here and want us to cater to them.
I just spent a bunch of time on the TSA website and couldn't find any exemptions or alternatives offered (except go through screening or choose not to fly basically). I did find a bunch of articles on google where an exemption has been attempted, but nothing saying it was granted. I would be really surprised if any exemptions were granted, although I know there is a rumor out there that that is the case. Would love to see the articles if you are able to find them.
About a year ago I had read various articles on the drivers license thing and also the swimming thing. I will try to find them. I dont have a problem with people dressing accorcing to their religion, but the facts are we live in a day in which anyone can hide behind a covering to commit a crime. I will try to find the articles tom. or later ton. when I have a chance.
I agree with everything you say. Yes, the problem does need to be halted and somehow the borders secured. No argument from me. There is a reality that the US has enemies and if these other folks can enter, they can find a way as well. Plus, yes, you don't need the drain on the economy. That is the negative side of granting amnesty, the message it sends.
As for the cultural differences - I do believe that we should do our best to respect, but I also believe the line is drawn at law. What is law for me is law for all and I do not believe that exceptions should be made. I think it's a big mistake, and it only serves to divide. I sort of follow the "don't sweat the small stuff" line of thinking. If it's little things, no biggie. But the law should always be respected. That's one of the reasons I have issue when a law is made around any single religious belief. The law is intended to serve all the citizens of any given country. So yes, I fully support what you are saying there.
I am betting that if there ever is a solution found, it comes somewhere in between amnesty and deport them all. Both of those are extreme solutions, and usually middle ground works best.
btw...are you sure special consideration is being given to Muslims in those situations? I know that is not the case here, so am curious if that is real or a rumor? Not accusing you of falsehoods, just wondering what the source of info is?
And I 1000% agree with your last comment...you cannot move here expecting the rules to change. They are for everyone, period.
As for the cultural differences - I do believe that we should do our best to respect, but I also believe the line is drawn at law. What is law for me is law for all and I do not believe that exceptions should be made. I think it's a big mistake, and it only serves to divide. I sort of follow the "don't sweat the small stuff" line of thinking. If it's little things, no biggie. But the law should always be respected. That's one of the reasons I have issue when a law is made around any single religious belief. The law is intended to serve all the citizens of any given country. So yes, I fully support what you are saying there.
I am betting that if there ever is a solution found, it comes somewhere in between amnesty and deport them all. Both of those are extreme solutions, and usually middle ground works best.
btw...are you sure special consideration is being given to Muslims in those situations? I know that is not the case here, so am curious if that is real or a rumor? Not accusing you of falsehoods, just wondering what the source of info is?
And I 1000% agree with your last comment...you cannot move here expecting the rules to change. They are for everyone, period.
Its one thing if we say, ok, they are here, lets make it work, but if they then continue to just let it happen, thats the problem I have with it. It wont end ever and people will think they can do whatever they want in the US, so more and more will just come here illegally. Thats my issue with it....it wont stop when they see there is nothing but a pay off for coming here illegally. Also, what about all those waiting and working to get here legally? Its not fair to them.
As to the cultures....I dont mean that I think they should all be just like me.
What I meant by that was, several places have issues with the people not obeying our laws and yet they get away with it. Dirty slummy poor areas living in squallar with non licensed dogs running all over the place. Then there are those who demand to have their rights in our country...like having their face covered for their drivers licence. Thats not fair.
Then there is the issue I have with things like security...special treatment for muslims but the same respect isnt given to nuns or people like myslef that also adhere to a strict modesty code, although I dont wear a special outfit, my modesty level is the same. Or when they fight to get special swimming times in colleges when the rest of us that dont believe in mixed swimming just dont go swimming... Things like that.... I say if you move here, you dont change our rules to suit you, you adjust to our laws.
As to the cultures....I dont mean that I think they should all be just like me.
What I meant by that was, several places have issues with the people not obeying our laws and yet they get away with it. Dirty slummy poor areas living in squallar with non licensed dogs running all over the place. Then there are those who demand to have their rights in our country...like having their face covered for their drivers licence. Thats not fair.
Then there is the issue I have with things like security...special treatment for muslims but the same respect isnt given to nuns or people like myslef that also adhere to a strict modesty code, although I dont wear a special outfit, my modesty level is the same. Or when they fight to get special swimming times in colleges when the rest of us that dont believe in mixed swimming just dont go swimming... Things like that.... I say if you move here, you dont change our rules to suit you, you adjust to our laws.
Sorry, one more thought (isn't there always..lol). Your point on wanting to live like they are in their own country. With immigration here, I am all for people preserving their own cultures. I actually think it makes for a really interesting country and enjoy learning about different cultures and belief systems. However, the law is the law and anyone choosing to immigrate to Canada (same for the US) has to learn our laws and should also learn the language. They must live according to the law, no exceptions. Same as those of us born here.
I completely see your point, and cannot say I disagree. I just also see it from the other side I guess. The US has a bit of the same problem we do here in Canada. That is, we are an aging population. People are not having as many children as they used to, and as folks age and require things like social security, there is not enough money coming in to support that..see what I mean? So immigration helps resolve that problem to a certain extent. Also, many immigrants are willing to do jobs that those born here aren't. My gosh, here we have trained Dr.s driving taxi (which makes me mad considering our shortage of Dr.s). So, if the illegal situation could be at least partially resolved by turning them into tax payers, that would help, wouldn't it? Please don't misunderstand me...I am a big believer in law and people living within the law. I would never condone breaking it. It's just that the reality is, they are here. And it is probably next to impossible, both financially and demographically to round em up and send em home. Perhaps there is a more meet in the middle solution? Maybe looking at making the non serious criminals (I say that because being illegal makes them criminals regardless) tax paying citizens might help the economic situation? I could very well be way off base here as to whether or not it would help, just sort of thinking out loud I guess.
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