Aa
Keystone XL continued
Refineries in Houston and along the Texas Gulf Coast can handle heavy crude such as that extracted from Canadian tar sands - the type of oil that would flow through the Keystone XL pipeline.
Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., said he doesn't believe the Keystone XL is a dead project. He said the Obama administration did not have enough time to review the project, given the Republican-imposed timeline.
"I don't believe this is the end of the story," Conrad told The Associated Press. "My personal view is that it should be constructed. It's clear Canada is going to develop this resource, and I believe it is better for our country to have it go here rather than Asian markets."
Bill McKibben, an environmental activist who led opposition to the pipeline, praised Obama's decision to stand up to what he called a "naked political threat from Big Oil." Jack Gerard, the oil industry's top lobbyist, had said last week that Obama faced "huge political consequences" if he rejected the pipeline.
"It's not only the right thing, it's a very brave thing to do," McKibben said. "That's the Barack Obama I think people thought they were electing back in 2008."
---
Associated Press writers Dina Cappiello, Laurie Kellman and Sam Hananel in Washington, Shannon McCaffrey in Warrenville, S.C., Ramit Plushnick-Masti in Houston and James MacPherson in Bismarck, N.D., contributed to this report.
Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., said he doesn't believe the Keystone XL is a dead project. He said the Obama administration did not have enough time to review the project, given the Republican-imposed timeline.
"I don't believe this is the end of the story," Conrad told The Associated Press. "My personal view is that it should be constructed. It's clear Canada is going to develop this resource, and I believe it is better for our country to have it go here rather than Asian markets."
Bill McKibben, an environmental activist who led opposition to the pipeline, praised Obama's decision to stand up to what he called a "naked political threat from Big Oil." Jack Gerard, the oil industry's top lobbyist, had said last week that Obama faced "huge political consequences" if he rejected the pipeline.
"It's not only the right thing, it's a very brave thing to do," McKibben said. "That's the Barack Obama I think people thought they were electing back in 2008."
---
Associated Press writers Dina Cappiello, Laurie Kellman and Sam Hananel in Washington, Shannon McCaffrey in Warrenville, S.C., Ramit Plushnick-Masti in Houston and James MacPherson in Bismarck, N.D., contributed to this report.
Well I think I might have found the skinny. Now that I am having more time on my hands Im lookin around and thought I would share.
http://factcheck.org/2012/03/more-pipeline-piffle-and-an-alaskan-absurdity/
http://factcheck.org/2012/03/more-pipeline-piffle-and-an-alaskan-absurdity/
Just to give you an example...
People living below the poverty line absolutely tend to have more health problems for a variety of reasons. This also holds true for children, probably more so. Oil & Gas where I live is the largest employer. We have a city of about a million people, and Oil & Gas and it's offshoot companies probably account for about 60% of employment. They also give a tonne of money to charities like the one I work for. Are they getting wealthy? Absolutely. I have no problem with that to be honest. But I can say that they also give a lot back to our community. To see them disappear would mean total economic collapse for us. Advancements in technology (and they invest an awful lot) are giving us safer and healthier ways to drill.
Now, I would like to see dependence on oil decrease for sure. But today the alternatives are not overly realistic. Maybe they are in some parts of the world, but not everywhere, not yet (a Smart Car is about as helpful in snow and ice as my son's tricycle). It's going to take time to happen. Yes, I want to see more invested in these alternatives, but they have to be realistic alternatives and again, that is going to take time.
So as much as health is important, part of good health is a safe and clean place to live, healthy food and all the other benefits that come from a healthy economic climate. This is why I say it's not as cut and dried as we often believe it to be. Yes, they are making millions. But it is not true to think that nothing is given back.
People living below the poverty line absolutely tend to have more health problems for a variety of reasons. This also holds true for children, probably more so. Oil & Gas where I live is the largest employer. We have a city of about a million people, and Oil & Gas and it's offshoot companies probably account for about 60% of employment. They also give a tonne of money to charities like the one I work for. Are they getting wealthy? Absolutely. I have no problem with that to be honest. But I can say that they also give a lot back to our community. To see them disappear would mean total economic collapse for us. Advancements in technology (and they invest an awful lot) are giving us safer and healthier ways to drill.
Now, I would like to see dependence on oil decrease for sure. But today the alternatives are not overly realistic. Maybe they are in some parts of the world, but not everywhere, not yet (a Smart Car is about as helpful in snow and ice as my son's tricycle). It's going to take time to happen. Yes, I want to see more invested in these alternatives, but they have to be realistic alternatives and again, that is going to take time.
So as much as health is important, part of good health is a safe and clean place to live, healthy food and all the other benefits that come from a healthy economic climate. This is why I say it's not as cut and dried as we often believe it to be. Yes, they are making millions. But it is not true to think that nothing is given back.
I guess for me it's not that simplistic. I don't believe we have to sacrifice health for economic survival. Of course I wouldn't prioritize economics over health. It's just that there is a lot of evidence showing that drilling and refining is safe and the gov't standards here are very high for that sort of thing.
Here's the thing I always try to keep in mind. Those that are against drilling can dig up evidence it's not safe. Those that are pro it can do the same showing it is safe. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Health is number one, but economic survival is not the same thing as greed to me. For some yes, but I live in an oil town and oil supports a lot of programs and such that benefit the poor. I want a balance, and I do believe it is achievable.
Here's the thing I always try to keep in mind. Those that are against drilling can dig up evidence it's not safe. Those that are pro it can do the same showing it is safe. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Health is number one, but economic survival is not the same thing as greed to me. For some yes, but I live in an oil town and oil supports a lot of programs and such that benefit the poor. I want a balance, and I do believe it is achievable.
How can one place economic survival above health ?
If it were your child that got the cancer from drilling would you feel the same?
Can you truly feel good inside yourself if you knew that the choice of this product was causing others horrible illnesses, destruction of their lands, undrinkable water, etc?
This is why I keep saying it is greed, yes our own greed that is the most destructive thing around.
If it were your child that got the cancer from drilling would you feel the same?
Can you truly feel good inside yourself if you knew that the choice of this product was causing others horrible illnesses, destruction of their lands, undrinkable water, etc?
This is why I keep saying it is greed, yes our own greed that is the most destructive thing around.
It's good for all of us economically. It just is. I know there are protests, and I know not everyone is happy about this.
I am a big supporter of Aboriginal rights, and am not ok with bulldozing grave sites, etc. But I do think there is a way to do this and still respect their land and their heritage. Perhaps the way it is being proposed or the route needs to be adjusted, but I do believe this can be done safely. The reality is that much of the world is very dependent on oil. I wish they weren't, but still don't feel that will change in our life time. We have oil and we have an awful lot of people living in poverty and that are jobless. For me I guess economic survival needs to be a priority.
I am a big supporter of Aboriginal rights, and am not ok with bulldozing grave sites, etc. But I do think there is a way to do this and still respect their land and their heritage. Perhaps the way it is being proposed or the route needs to be adjusted, but I do believe this can be done safely. The reality is that much of the world is very dependent on oil. I wish they weren't, but still don't feel that will change in our life time. We have oil and we have an awful lot of people living in poverty and that are jobless. For me I guess economic survival needs to be a priority.
Who in your country is it good for? Certainly not the people who have lived there for centruries.
Native Americans protest Obama approval of pipeline’s south end
“Natives in Canada live downstream from toxic tar sands mines,” said Earl Hatley, “and they are experiencing spikes in colon, liver, blood and rare bile-duct cancers which the Canadian government and oil companies simply ignore. And now they want to pipe these tar sands through the heart of Indian country, bulldozing grave sites and ripping out our heritage.”
http://blogs.alternet.org/danbacher/2012/03/22/native-americans-protest-obama-approval-of-pipelines-south-end/
Native Americans protest Obama approval of pipeline’s south end
“Natives in Canada live downstream from toxic tar sands mines,” said Earl Hatley, “and they are experiencing spikes in colon, liver, blood and rare bile-duct cancers which the Canadian government and oil companies simply ignore. And now they want to pipe these tar sands through the heart of Indian country, bulldozing grave sites and ripping out our heritage.”
http://blogs.alternet.org/danbacher/2012/03/22/native-americans-protest-obama-approval-of-pipelines-south-end/
That's comforting. ha ha
Why ? That may be the trillion dollar question.
What I heard on a radio program is the vast majority of it will be sold to China.
Think about that.
What I heard on a radio program is the vast majority of it will be sold to China.
Think about that.
Yes, that doesn't make sense to me. Why can't we use that oil??
There is a definate downside to the pipeline, but I see great benefit as well. (I think)
There is a definate downside to the pipeline, but I see great benefit as well. (I think)
Although I am happy about this project (it's good for my country, so there are selfish motives here I admit), I have to admit this whole importing for export thing continues to confound me. Given the amount of oil required in the US still, I cannot for the life of me figure out why you would import it from us (a country friendly with the US and a proven allie) in order to export it elsewhere in order to continue importing it from countries that are hostile toward you. I have read up on this, and I don't argue that it's happening, I just cannot figure out why?
I'm not happy about it at all. It's very destructive to the environment and local residents way of life, and the oil is meant for export, not for domestic use.
You said something interesting in one of your comments above... "Oil might be expensive but you can live without it. Water. Not so much."
I agree that one cannot live without water... very true.
Your oil comment and being able to live without it, however, is not true.
We cannot live without oil.
That keyboard your typing on? Petroleum product
That Starbucks cup you're drinking out of? The lid is a petroleum product
That car you drive? The tires are petroleum products
That microwave you use to make dinner? Petroleum product
The makeup you put on your face? Petroleum products (some of them)
I'm not sure what you do for a living, but take a look around your store/office... I'll be willing to bet that 50% of the items in your office/store are petroleum products.
People tend to forget that there's a lot more to oil that refining it to make gasoline.
Our entire way of life and existence can be attributed to petroleum. We exist, in the manner that we do, due to oil.
Just an observation.
I agree that one cannot live without water... very true.
Your oil comment and being able to live without it, however, is not true.
We cannot live without oil.
That keyboard your typing on? Petroleum product
That Starbucks cup you're drinking out of? The lid is a petroleum product
That car you drive? The tires are petroleum products
That microwave you use to make dinner? Petroleum product
The makeup you put on your face? Petroleum products (some of them)
I'm not sure what you do for a living, but take a look around your store/office... I'll be willing to bet that 50% of the items in your office/store are petroleum products.
People tend to forget that there's a lot more to oil that refining it to make gasoline.
Our entire way of life and existence can be attributed to petroleum. We exist, in the manner that we do, due to oil.
Just an observation.
In today's paper, I read that Obama has announced that he is putting the southern part of this project on the fast track to complete. I'm happy about this (I think).
Deep charge lead/acid batteries are basically maintained (and recycled) the way a car's battery is. You pop the caps and add distilled water if needed. Maybe once a month if you're careful not to overtax them.
Do you know what the maintenance is for the batteries? Or how they are disposed of when they are no longer any good? Unfortunate that there's no a way to share power, but I can see that proximity would be a stumbling block. It's very interesting to learn what others in the country are doing to become less reliant on fuel.
orphanedhawk - there may some people in the mid west that are powering entire farms, though I don't know of any in the area we came from. Most farms I'm familiar with used a windmill only for pumping water, other electricity was purchased from the power company, but I guess that would depend on the area. The area we come from now has entire windmill "farms", on which multiple wind turbines are installed in the open fields. Some of these windmills are 300-400' tall. Very majestic looking. I think some of the problems between the wind farms and the power companies have been worked out, but it hasn't been smooth sailing, and I suspect it won't be for a long time, since the power companies don't seem to want to give up the use of fossil fuel.
orphanedhawk - there may some people in the mid west that are powering entire farms, though I don't know of any in the area we came from. Most farms I'm familiar with used a windmill only for pumping water, other electricity was purchased from the power company, but I guess that would depend on the area. The area we come from now has entire windmill "farms", on which multiple wind turbines are installed in the open fields. Some of these windmills are 300-400' tall. Very majestic looking. I think some of the problems between the wind farms and the power companies have been worked out, but it hasn't been smooth sailing, and I suspect it won't be for a long time, since the power companies don't seem to want to give up the use of fossil fuel.
The system I'm most familiar with is in the home where I sometimes housesit. No connection to the electric grid, large soar panel, deep charge lead/acid batteries (that need to be checked, maintained, not over-taxed), and an inverter that allows the house to be wired for normal 120 AC. Phone connection only outside link. Propane tank to run a propane refrigerator (a flame about the size of a pilot light) and back up heat. Mostly passive solar, stuccoed straw bale walls.
I'm also helping a friend constuct a large, papercrete adobe style house that will be dual wired for both 12/24 volt DC and also inverter powered AC with back up by power company power.
Most homes are too far distant out here for power sharing to be practical. I've heard that some homes that have excess power sell it back to the power company - basically your meter runs backwards - but I've no practical experience with this.
I'm also helping a friend constuct a large, papercrete adobe style house that will be dual wired for both 12/24 volt DC and also inverter powered AC with back up by power company power.
Most homes are too far distant out here for power sharing to be practical. I've heard that some homes that have excess power sell it back to the power company - basically your meter runs backwards - but I've no practical experience with this.
A few things pertaining to the subject, this morning. One... does anyone here ever go to stumbleupon.com? It's an interesting site that generates points of interest particularly to your points of interest. (I suggest taking a look.) Anyhow, I stumbled upon "earth ships" Basically it is custom homes built into earth berms and using recycled materials. Some are pretty basic but others are completely over the top elaborate. From solar/wind powered homes, elaborate water collecting systems, grey water re-usage... all incredible ideas!
Solar panels.... a solar panel manufacturing company in Las Vegas, NV just filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy after receiving $5.7 million in stimulus money... With solar panels, battery back ups and electric cars and their batteries, there are all kinds of debates about how the mining of the necessary minerals to produce these batteries is having a bigger adverse affect on the environment than the benefits of having the batteries. The batteries aren't perpetual and do have a shelf life, and arguments abound on proper disposal of said batteries. So there are a few questions that we can not answer yet pertaining to the actual benefits of these batteries. Kind of typical for us as a people though. We tend to do some things that look great when they come in this new shiny wrapping paper, then come to realize that what we thought was a wonderful thing is not as wonderful as promised. (Think nuclear power and its by products.) Also think of the batteries in these hybrid vehicles... looks great when we are saving hundreds of dollars at the gas pumps annually, but what is the actual cost/usage of fossil fuels used in mining the minerals for these batteries?
Adgal, you're completely right in to what we hear. At any given time you can hear any number of pro's and con's for any alternative, but it depends on whom you are getting the information from. It all makes me think of that analogy that comes from the physics field.... "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".
Solar panels.... a solar panel manufacturing company in Las Vegas, NV just filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy after receiving $5.7 million in stimulus money... With solar panels, battery back ups and electric cars and their batteries, there are all kinds of debates about how the mining of the necessary minerals to produce these batteries is having a bigger adverse affect on the environment than the benefits of having the batteries. The batteries aren't perpetual and do have a shelf life, and arguments abound on proper disposal of said batteries. So there are a few questions that we can not answer yet pertaining to the actual benefits of these batteries. Kind of typical for us as a people though. We tend to do some things that look great when they come in this new shiny wrapping paper, then come to realize that what we thought was a wonderful thing is not as wonderful as promised. (Think nuclear power and its by products.) Also think of the batteries in these hybrid vehicles... looks great when we are saving hundreds of dollars at the gas pumps annually, but what is the actual cost/usage of fossil fuels used in mining the minerals for these batteries?
Adgal, you're completely right in to what we hear. At any given time you can hear any number of pro's and con's for any alternative, but it depends on whom you are getting the information from. It all makes me think of that analogy that comes from the physics field.... "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".
You want to increase confusion, do what I am doing and watch this issue debated on Canadian TV and then US TV. Here it is obviously considered a really good thing as, well, it would be good for our economy (especially for those of us in Alberta like me). So our media is pushing for it hard. They are pushing for our Prime Minister to take that hard nose stance. We do have those against, but the media doesn't seem to play much on them (big shock..not).
I watch the issue debated on US TV and it gets more confusing depending on what channel you watch.
So I have watched on 3 different stations transmitting from 2 different countries, and pretty much have 3 completely different stories. Same goes for newspapers, on line articles, etc. I can honestly say I have absolutely NO idea anymore if this is good for you folks. Economically, it sure is good for us though, so I guess I have to stand by my original stance that I want to see it happen...I think. Who knows anymore. It sure would be nice to see the facts, and just the facts reported. But I give up on that. The media here isn't quite as sensationalized as it is on your side of the border, but it's sure not to far behind.
I watch the issue debated on US TV and it gets more confusing depending on what channel you watch.
So I have watched on 3 different stations transmitting from 2 different countries, and pretty much have 3 completely different stories. Same goes for newspapers, on line articles, etc. I can honestly say I have absolutely NO idea anymore if this is good for you folks. Economically, it sure is good for us though, so I guess I have to stand by my original stance that I want to see it happen...I think. Who knows anymore. It sure would be nice to see the facts, and just the facts reported. But I give up on that. The media here isn't quite as sensationalized as it is on your side of the border, but it's sure not to far behind.
My husband tells the story of his grandparents in the mid-west being offered free electricity and wiring by the electric company in exchange for their wind mills which were running their farms.
Along with their neighbors they went for it and of course in a short time were paying for what came down the grid instead of taking care of the windmill.
I have friends in Hawaii and rural California living off the grid. Other friends here in California with electric cars use solar panels to charge the battery.
And I used to live in a rural area, we were off the grid but used gas for the backup generator. Our water was gravity flow and it worked great.
Throughout Turkey there are solar hot water heaters on the roofs of apartment buildings, homes and hotels. There is no reason why all of the Southwest doesn't have them.
That's enough from me for this evening.
Good night.
Along with their neighbors they went for it and of course in a short time were paying for what came down the grid instead of taking care of the windmill.
I have friends in Hawaii and rural California living off the grid. Other friends here in California with electric cars use solar panels to charge the battery.
And I used to live in a rural area, we were off the grid but used gas for the backup generator. Our water was gravity flow and it worked great.
Throughout Turkey there are solar hot water heaters on the roofs of apartment buildings, homes and hotels. There is no reason why all of the Southwest doesn't have them.
That's enough from me for this evening.
Good night.
Very interesting. Are you and/or your neighbors totally off the grid? Would you/they ever need to get power from the grid and if so, could you/they? I'm visualizing a bank of huge batteries behind each home to store the solar energy. Can you share energy? For instance if you produce more than you need, but something happened to your neighbor's batteries, can you give them some of yours? What type of maintenance is necessary to maintain a system?
I ask because we come from the midwest where wind power is becoming a big thing. There are a lot of windmill farms producing a lot of energy. One issue is that power companies don't want to buy the power produced by the windmills. This may have changed some over the past few years, but was a big problem at one time. Another is that it's not set up to run individual entities, such as a farmstead, business, single home, etc. I also don't know about storage of the energy produced. Last I knew it went into the grid.
I think one problem we have in this country, is that people aren't willing to change their way of life. They want the AC/heat on demand, they want lights/water on demand - the idea of flipping a switch/turning a faucet handle/hitting the flush lever and you get what you need. Unfortunately, there are too few people who have ever had to do without power, and they don't know how/aren't willing to adapt. I grew up on a farm in South Dakota and sometimes, if it didn't rain or the wind didn't blow, we might be low on water (rain water went into the cistern; the wind pumped water from the ground) and we had to adapt/make do; we didn't have a faucet to turn on to wash our hands or a toilet to flush. If no wind, we could use the hand pump to get water from the ground. We later got an pump. How happy were we then??
Reading this thread, I am beginning to wonder about this project, as much as everyone else is. I would tend to agree with adgal that it would be preferable to bring the oil to the U.S vs selling it to China and bringing it via a pipeline vs taking it by sea; and the fact that refineries in the U.S are capable of handling this type of oil, it seems that there might be some job creation, from both the building of the pipeline (temporary, except for those needed for maintenance purposes) and the refining process, but I haven't done enough research to substantiate that yet...
I ask because we come from the midwest where wind power is becoming a big thing. There are a lot of windmill farms producing a lot of energy. One issue is that power companies don't want to buy the power produced by the windmills. This may have changed some over the past few years, but was a big problem at one time. Another is that it's not set up to run individual entities, such as a farmstead, business, single home, etc. I also don't know about storage of the energy produced. Last I knew it went into the grid.
I think one problem we have in this country, is that people aren't willing to change their way of life. They want the AC/heat on demand, they want lights/water on demand - the idea of flipping a switch/turning a faucet handle/hitting the flush lever and you get what you need. Unfortunately, there are too few people who have ever had to do without power, and they don't know how/aren't willing to adapt. I grew up on a farm in South Dakota and sometimes, if it didn't rain or the wind didn't blow, we might be low on water (rain water went into the cistern; the wind pumped water from the ground) and we had to adapt/make do; we didn't have a faucet to turn on to wash our hands or a toilet to flush. If no wind, we could use the hand pump to get water from the ground. We later got an pump. How happy were we then??
Reading this thread, I am beginning to wonder about this project, as much as everyone else is. I would tend to agree with adgal that it would be preferable to bring the oil to the U.S vs selling it to China and bringing it via a pipeline vs taking it by sea; and the fact that refineries in the U.S are capable of handling this type of oil, it seems that there might be some job creation, from both the building of the pipeline (temporary, except for those needed for maintenance purposes) and the refining process, but I haven't done enough research to substantiate that yet...
The only way forward is to change.
As desrt pointed out the technology is available now.
Germany is way ahead of us. Small alternative energy producers moved there because they didn't get the support in the US.
Yes, the big boys don't want us being self sufficient, not a big enough profit if they can't sell it on the grid.
We don't need Keystone. Its just another corporate money grab.
As desrt pointed out the technology is available now.
Germany is way ahead of us. Small alternative energy producers moved there because they didn't get the support in the US.
Yes, the big boys don't want us being self sufficient, not a big enough profit if they can't sell it on the grid.
We don't need Keystone. Its just another corporate money grab.
I understand the technology is available. The reason I don't think we will see the change in our life time is for exactly the reason's Brice stated. People not only have no real idea how many things are oil dependent, they are also not yet ready to give up these conveniences. I don't believe the majority are willing to change as much as they claim they want to see the dependancy lessened. Sometimes I think it will take a serious energy crisis (ie: we are running out of oil) to force that change to happen. Either that or education from birth, and I think it may take our grandchildrens generation to get there completely. I don't know, I just don't see it as realistic.
i believe this will be part of the future, http://zeroenergycbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CBC-MBS-GI-Draft-2010.pdf
Germany is allready starting to make each building its own power source, we are alot bigger in population and land mass, so it will take us longer of course, and then the politicians will have to agree on how to move fwd.
it is a bit of a read , and it is one in a series of componets that like the internet will change things as we know it, but will be the next wave of technology, peak oil has already happened and now they are having to go after the harder to get stuff, & open more areas to drilling.
Germany is allready starting to make each building its own power source, we are alot bigger in population and land mass, so it will take us longer of course, and then the politicians will have to agree on how to move fwd.
it is a bit of a read , and it is one in a series of componets that like the internet will change things as we know it, but will be the next wave of technology, peak oil has already happened and now they are having to go after the harder to get stuff, & open more areas to drilling.
I know what ya mean when you say you are confused. It seems opinions are given as facts now like brice said. Im sure I could muddle thru and find the truth if I had enuff time. Sometimes I think looking at how another country would report on it gives more facts and less opinion? Sad isnt it?
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