Aa
Keystone XL continued
Refineries in Houston and along the Texas Gulf Coast can handle heavy crude such as that extracted from Canadian tar sands - the type of oil that would flow through the Keystone XL pipeline.
Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., said he doesn't believe the Keystone XL is a dead project. He said the Obama administration did not have enough time to review the project, given the Republican-imposed timeline.
"I don't believe this is the end of the story," Conrad told The Associated Press. "My personal view is that it should be constructed. It's clear Canada is going to develop this resource, and I believe it is better for our country to have it go here rather than Asian markets."
Bill McKibben, an environmental activist who led opposition to the pipeline, praised Obama's decision to stand up to what he called a "naked political threat from Big Oil." Jack Gerard, the oil industry's top lobbyist, had said last week that Obama faced "huge political consequences" if he rejected the pipeline.
"It's not only the right thing, it's a very brave thing to do," McKibben said. "That's the Barack Obama I think people thought they were electing back in 2008."
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Associated Press writers Dina Cappiello, Laurie Kellman and Sam Hananel in Washington, Shannon McCaffrey in Warrenville, S.C., Ramit Plushnick-Masti in Houston and James MacPherson in Bismarck, N.D., contributed to this report.
Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., said he doesn't believe the Keystone XL is a dead project. He said the Obama administration did not have enough time to review the project, given the Republican-imposed timeline.
"I don't believe this is the end of the story," Conrad told The Associated Press. "My personal view is that it should be constructed. It's clear Canada is going to develop this resource, and I believe it is better for our country to have it go here rather than Asian markets."
Bill McKibben, an environmental activist who led opposition to the pipeline, praised Obama's decision to stand up to what he called a "naked political threat from Big Oil." Jack Gerard, the oil industry's top lobbyist, had said last week that Obama faced "huge political consequences" if he rejected the pipeline.
"It's not only the right thing, it's a very brave thing to do," McKibben said. "That's the Barack Obama I think people thought they were electing back in 2008."
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Associated Press writers Dina Cappiello, Laurie Kellman and Sam Hananel in Washington, Shannon McCaffrey in Warrenville, S.C., Ramit Plushnick-Masti in Houston and James MacPherson in Bismarck, N.D., contributed to this report.
Well, I love being dependent on other countries that are hostile torwards America, don't you?
And the prediction of 5 dollar a gallon gas by Spring sounds like fun.
And as a project that could bring jobs to people who need them, well---- that's not really important, is it?
And the prediction of 5 dollar a gallon gas by Spring sounds like fun.
And as a project that could bring jobs to people who need them, well---- that's not really important, is it?
Yep, I'm with you on that one -- being dependent on hostile people to supply energy really helps put me right to sleep at night........ I. too, can't wait until spring, when the $5/gal gas will take an even bigger bite out of my retirement pay (right behind health insurance); and I'm thrilled that the jobs will not be created by this project that won't take place....... sarcasm intended......
I'm off to research the Sandhills of Nebraska - must be something really special there to nix a project like this......
I'm off to research the Sandhills of Nebraska - must be something really special there to nix a project like this......
Well, if it's any consolation, huge controversy on this project on this side of the border too. The environmentalists are at it again....and so incredibly misinformed. It has been proven this can be done safely and there will be job creation here too. All good things....and we would much rather sell to and support our friends and neighbors then anyone else. And don't feel too badly about the gas prices. We are paying over $4 a gallon now and I live three hours from a refinery and not much further then that from the oil sands.
It's too bad people can't take this for what it is. A really good thing economically for both countries. And again, proven that it can be done safely..in fact this is far safer environmentally then shipping it by freighter. Of course, where would some of these folks be without something to scream about. Sad. If we have to get it to China, I wonder how they think it will get there....uhhmmm, by freighter. Far bigger chance of an accident, and we all share the oceans. Just crazy.
It's too bad people can't take this for what it is. A really good thing economically for both countries. And again, proven that it can be done safely..in fact this is far safer environmentally then shipping it by freighter. Of course, where would some of these folks be without something to scream about. Sad. If we have to get it to China, I wonder how they think it will get there....uhhmmm, by freighter. Far bigger chance of an accident, and we all share the oceans. Just crazy.
Here's the link again.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20120119/D9SBM4A00.html
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20120119/D9SBM4A00.html
http://politicalcorrection.org/factcheck/201201120011
Want all sides of the story? Here is a link. It is also my understanding that for one, this is not a no period, more of a you gotta change the route and reapply.?
Secondly, the republicans put this little morsel into the payroll tax extenstion package and put a two month limit on it in order to derail the payroll tax. imo.
So for me the verdict is still out while I try to separate fact from fiction and politics from reality. Man o man it gets harder to tell these days and harder still to trace back to the origins of all this. It is my understanding there is a aquafur or what (main water source in its path)? And as far as how safe it is, uh, anyone remember exxon valdez, Im still not eating out of the ocean. So I say procede with caution personally.
Want all sides of the story? Here is a link. It is also my understanding that for one, this is not a no period, more of a you gotta change the route and reapply.?
Secondly, the republicans put this little morsel into the payroll tax extenstion package and put a two month limit on it in order to derail the payroll tax. imo.
So for me the verdict is still out while I try to separate fact from fiction and politics from reality. Man o man it gets harder to tell these days and harder still to trace back to the origins of all this. It is my understanding there is a aquafur or what (main water source in its path)? And as far as how safe it is, uh, anyone remember exxon valdez, Im still not eating out of the ocean. So I say procede with caution personally.
"Secondly, the republicans put this little morsel into the payroll tax extenstion package and put a two month limit on it in order to derail the payroll tax."
Obama agreed to the time limit, at the time.
Having to change the route and reapply puts the whole project back to square one and what's to say the Canadians won't get tired of waiting and start sending that oil to China, which will leave us even more indebted to China, since we will then have to start buying oil from them.
Obama agreed to the time limit, at the time.
Having to change the route and reapply puts the whole project back to square one and what's to say the Canadians won't get tired of waiting and start sending that oil to China, which will leave us even more indebted to China, since we will then have to start buying oil from them.
Well, putting politics aside, it IS tough. Nothing relating to oil is going to come without risk or a down side. But the other options (being dependent on others) are also risky and with a down side.
I meant dependent on others who want to crush us, kill us or bankrupt us.
$5 dollar a gallon will cripple this middle class family. We have 2 cars traveling 100 miles a day because of opposite schedules. We talked about this last night.... we are going to have to commute, each of us will have 16 hour days so we will only have 1 car on the road.
I didn't mean to imply no risk associated with the pipeline. Anything can happen. I guess for me it's just reality. The oil dependency is not going to go away any time soon. Yes, alternatives do need to be put into place, but things take time. So right now you are having a ton of oil shipped in from the Middle East. There are far greater risks associated with having it shipped in by freighter then by having it run through a pipeline. There are also far greater risks associated with being dependent on the Middle East then in buying from us.
From our perspective, it would be a far better situation to be trading with and selling to the US, our longtime friends and allies, then it would be to help support China. So while I understand some opposition, I am not certain those so totally opposed to this live in the real world. Risk..yes, some. But good for both economies whether it's through job creation or just keeping gas prices down. And unless those opposed have a plan to eliminate oil in the very near future, I can't understand the outcry.
From our perspective, it would be a far better situation to be trading with and selling to the US, our longtime friends and allies, then it would be to help support China. So while I understand some opposition, I am not certain those so totally opposed to this live in the real world. Risk..yes, some. But good for both economies whether it's through job creation or just keeping gas prices down. And unless those opposed have a plan to eliminate oil in the very near future, I can't understand the outcry.
I agree with that Amanda! There is always risk but you weigh that against benefit. I think Obama made a mistake.
Youre right. Oil dependency is going nowhere for at least the next 50 years. In that time we have plenty of opportunity to explore and refine all other technologies and have the capabilities to use the technology to extract the crude from the ground domestically (or within Canada) and reap the benefits of that. Jobs everywhere, lower fuel prices.... just seems to make a bit of sense so I am guessing that is why we aren't doing anythinga bout it. That and paritsan politics places a part.
I just see this whole situation as an example of politics before the people. I don't know enough about the underlying issues to say it's Obama or the opposition...who knows what goes on behind closed doors. And honestly, who cares. No matter who is to blame, the end result is the same. A negative situation for you folks. Not so great for us here either...see why I am so interested in US politics...just an example of how it impacts us too. It's all so frustrating as so many of the solutions seem so very simple. People first, politics second.
It is my understanding that this oil is for export? Is that so? And if it is? Does that bring down the price of oil? I dont think we need to be jumping into anything without knowing the risk all around. Oil might be expensive but you can live without it. Water. Not so much. And I agree that politics is being played big time here. Both sides, but that is not my concern. I heard Ohio is the dumping ground for all the fracking waste. They have something like 180 wells there so far and everyone is tickled pink cause its jobs. But what happens in the long term? There has already been an uptick in earthquakes, what next? Im not sold on the big oil thing. I tend to think we are getting snookered again and shaking our heads yes, the whole time. Im not seeing all the benefits they are trying to tell us there will be. I just dont know.
Ok, so I understand your not seeing the full benefit. And I can understand that, much of this is vague. However, lets look at the negative side of not doing it. Unless the US is willing to give up it's oil dependance, beyond what it can drill domestically...
1. Continued dependance on the Middle East...a situation we all know is violatile and seems to be getting worse
2. Importing via freighter - far far riskier in terms of a potential accident then via pipeline
3. Increased costs of oil. Far more expensive and labor intensive bringing it in from the Middle East via freighter then having it come through a pipeline from the country next door
I think those 3 things cannot be disputed. I think it would be great if we all lessened our dependence on oil, but I don't see it happening anytime soon either.
Living without it? Well, yes technically. We would survive. But again, I don't see anyone attempting that. And like I said, a freighter disaster is far more likely which also pollutes the water. And offshore drilling is even riskier. So I guess I just don't see the alternative, at least not right now.
1. Continued dependance on the Middle East...a situation we all know is violatile and seems to be getting worse
2. Importing via freighter - far far riskier in terms of a potential accident then via pipeline
3. Increased costs of oil. Far more expensive and labor intensive bringing it in from the Middle East via freighter then having it come through a pipeline from the country next door
I think those 3 things cannot be disputed. I think it would be great if we all lessened our dependence on oil, but I don't see it happening anytime soon either.
Living without it? Well, yes technically. We would survive. But again, I don't see anyone attempting that. And like I said, a freighter disaster is far more likely which also pollutes the water. And offshore drilling is even riskier. So I guess I just don't see the alternative, at least not right now.
Argument noted. But isnt most of this pipeline already in place? And isnt this oil for export? So someone needs to explain to me where all these jobs are coming from because it isnt making any sense. They say the money is already used up and the pipeline, most of it is already in place and the big contraversy is this thing going over a major water way right? So, like they say, if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. Im just not convinced it will lesson our reliance on foreign oil either. But I could be wrong, but just not feeling it as yet. lol
I am also not fully clear on where the jobs will all come from. Yes, I believe part of it is in place, but there is much more to be built (I think) and then there is maintenance, etc. I don't believe (again, don't know this, just what I think) that it is all automated, so I would imagine that aspect would at least create some jobs. The rest of it..no idea. For me it's more about keeping this oil in the neighborhood and between friends.
It's something like the 5th largest oil reserve in the world. I don't think it would completely end your reliance on foreign oil, but I think it would decrease it. You are one of the largest (if not the largest) consumers of oil, so you probably do need more then one source.
I know it's a controversial issue. And like I said, I wish there were good alternatives already in place. There is work being done on it, but I doubt we will see it all come to fruition in our life times.
It's something like the 5th largest oil reserve in the world. I don't think it would completely end your reliance on foreign oil, but I think it would decrease it. You are one of the largest (if not the largest) consumers of oil, so you probably do need more then one source.
I know it's a controversial issue. And like I said, I wish there were good alternatives already in place. There is work being done on it, but I doubt we will see it all come to fruition in our life times.
Texas doesn't need any more refineries. There are plenty of 'shovel ready' jobs to be had putting in wind farms or installing massive solar powered steam plants like the one the Israelis are building for us in the Mojave desert. The Canadians can sell their oil to the Chinese and let them burn it to their hearts content. The PRC already has a staggering rate of respiratory disease and unbelievably destructive acid rain from burning fossil fuels, even in coastal cities like Shanghai. The tech to shift away from fossil fuels is here now. If you want to believe the oil industry hype and fear mongering about 'foreign dependence' that's your choice.
Oil is finite. Alternative energy technology exists and has for years.
This is where our money should go~ not to prolonging a dirty industry with a limited lifespan.
This is where our money should go~ not to prolonging a dirty industry with a limited lifespan.
I was in Beijing in 1988 and experienced firsthand what their air pollution is like. The fact that they had to shut down many of their factories for weeks just to host the Olympics should be a clue. My daughter spent the last two summers in the PRC and told me one of the reasons you see so many Chinese carrying umbrellas is straight out of the movie 'Bladeruner' - the seams on the shoulders of your clothing start to fray after a couple weeks if you don't. From the persistent acid rain. I want no part of that grim Orwellian future.
Personally I see a future of chaos.
My fantasy of clean sustainable energy produced by individuals is not likely to happen for the masses.
My fantasy of clean sustainable energy produced by individuals is not likely to happen for the masses.
I agree that alternative energy is where the future lies. And quite frankly, I wish that future was here now. But the reality is that the western world has been having a love affair with oil for a very long time. Do I think that can be phased out? Absolutely. Do I think it will happen quickly? Not really. I would like that to be the case, but I just don't see it. And in terms of dependency on foreign oil...I guess I also don't see that as fear mongering. It's sort of reality isn't it? Not having that pipeline go through is not going to change the oil dependency. The oil will continue to come. It will just come from less friendly nations in ways that are far more likely to have accidents then the pipeline is.
Orphanedhawk....I tend to agree with you. I think there will be chaos before there is a change. Like most changes, I think this one will take time, and people will have to buy in. Some have bought in, but not the masses, at least not yet.
That oil is going to get sold one way or the other. So for us in Canada, it doesn't matter I guess where it goes to. But from my perspective, I would rather see it travel by pipeline to our neighbors and friends then be shipped by freighter to a country I'm not so certain about. Maybe that's a bad attitude, but I see it as realism I guess. Just my perspective.
Orphanedhawk....I tend to agree with you. I think there will be chaos before there is a change. Like most changes, I think this one will take time, and people will have to buy in. Some have bought in, but not the masses, at least not yet.
That oil is going to get sold one way or the other. So for us in Canada, it doesn't matter I guess where it goes to. But from my perspective, I would rather see it travel by pipeline to our neighbors and friends then be shipped by freighter to a country I'm not so certain about. Maybe that's a bad attitude, but I see it as realism I guess. Just my perspective.
There is always a great argument on the other side and that is why people debate. I hope we take canada's oil.
You can't blame Obama for this. At best, like our most recent politicians, he is a pawn and a hand tied one at that. Its not the head politicians, it is the system and all of the "behind the scene" people that have us in a pinch.
We can live without oil? Take it off the market today and see what happens. We do not have viable alternatives to fossil fuels right now. Oil and coal are where you are probably mostly powering your homes right now unless you are completley off the grid and have your own solar/wind farm or rely on nuclear power.
China is in the bogus shape it is because there are no regulations. None from production, importation, or use of oil and oil products. It's purchase and consume at will. In the mean time, they are buying random energy companies all over the globe. (A few in Canada just in the last couple of weeks to a month.) What they plan to do with it I guess is anyones guess. Monopoly says I.
I just heard a news bit on ABC radio news last night that Chevy seems to have made a pretty good turn around since getting their bailout. The only other car manufacturer doing nearly as well is Ford. What both of them are doing is dropping some models, and re-engineering the models they sell the most of. Ford F150, (I believe the nations best selling 1/2 ton truck) is droppong over 700 lbs from its frame buy using structural aluminum over the steel it had been using for decades.
I also just got done reading "The Tao of Willie". It is Willie Nelsons walk of life according to the path of the tao. It's similar to the Buddhist path. In the book he goes on to tout bio diesel and what it can be made of. He also claims that it would put thosands of individual/independent farmers back to work. I like the idea of that, but he doesn't clearly go on to define how all of this will happen. First off, there is only so much land to farm on. Secondly, we are losing some of that land now to bio-diversity and the production of bio fuels and it is making our food prices a bit higher.
There is a weed that was imported from Europe when settlers firs came to this country and Canada. In fact, the weed is prevalent in Canada. They've found that the weed is easier to make bio fuels from and is way easier on the environment. (The artical I read on it some time ago shows wide open areas covered with this weed.) It takes no fertilizer, little water, and harvesting it is no more/less wasteful that currently used to harvest corn for bio diesel.
We've got a long way to go to really be able to cut back on fossil fuels. Every individual can do their part and cut back here and there. Driving more fuel efficient vehicles, proper tire inflation on those vehicles, turning the thermostate down a few degrees this time of year.... but those differences are pretty insignificant when it comes to losing dependency on oil.
We can live without oil? Take it off the market today and see what happens. We do not have viable alternatives to fossil fuels right now. Oil and coal are where you are probably mostly powering your homes right now unless you are completley off the grid and have your own solar/wind farm or rely on nuclear power.
China is in the bogus shape it is because there are no regulations. None from production, importation, or use of oil and oil products. It's purchase and consume at will. In the mean time, they are buying random energy companies all over the globe. (A few in Canada just in the last couple of weeks to a month.) What they plan to do with it I guess is anyones guess. Monopoly says I.
I just heard a news bit on ABC radio news last night that Chevy seems to have made a pretty good turn around since getting their bailout. The only other car manufacturer doing nearly as well is Ford. What both of them are doing is dropping some models, and re-engineering the models they sell the most of. Ford F150, (I believe the nations best selling 1/2 ton truck) is droppong over 700 lbs from its frame buy using structural aluminum over the steel it had been using for decades.
I also just got done reading "The Tao of Willie". It is Willie Nelsons walk of life according to the path of the tao. It's similar to the Buddhist path. In the book he goes on to tout bio diesel and what it can be made of. He also claims that it would put thosands of individual/independent farmers back to work. I like the idea of that, but he doesn't clearly go on to define how all of this will happen. First off, there is only so much land to farm on. Secondly, we are losing some of that land now to bio-diversity and the production of bio fuels and it is making our food prices a bit higher.
There is a weed that was imported from Europe when settlers firs came to this country and Canada. In fact, the weed is prevalent in Canada. They've found that the weed is easier to make bio fuels from and is way easier on the environment. (The artical I read on it some time ago shows wide open areas covered with this weed.) It takes no fertilizer, little water, and harvesting it is no more/less wasteful that currently used to harvest corn for bio diesel.
We've got a long way to go to really be able to cut back on fossil fuels. Every individual can do their part and cut back here and there. Driving more fuel efficient vehicles, proper tire inflation on those vehicles, turning the thermostate down a few degrees this time of year.... but those differences are pretty insignificant when it comes to losing dependency on oil.
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