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Ohio bargaining measure as a 2012 litmus
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45024409/ns/politics/#.TqbPs3LNm2Y
A rejection of Issue 2 would be promising for Dems and their union allies
When Republicans won control of state legislatures and governorships from Florida to Maine to Ohio last fall, voters seemed to have steered a sharply different course from the one chosen in the Democratic triumph of 2008.
Ohio bargaining measure as a 2012 litmus
An Ohio ballot measure called Issue 2 will allow voters to uphold or undo a law enacted last spring by the Republican-controlled legislature and Gov. John Kasich that limits the ability of public employee unions to collectively bargain.
But in two weeks, the Ohio ballot will give Buckeye State voters the chance to change course yet again, at least in one 2012 battleground.
A ballot measure called Issue 2 will allow voters to uphold or repeal law, Senate Bill 5, enacted last spring by the Republican-controlled Legislature and GOP Gov. John Kasich that limits the ability of public employee unions to collectively bargain.
The law also requires performance-based pay for most public employees, limits accrual of vacation time and requires public employees to pay 15 percent of the cost of their health care benefits.
First Read: Looking to Ohio
Unlike Wisconsin, where Republican .Gov Scott Walker’s similar effort to curb union power prompted recall efforts against GOP lawmakers who supported him, in Ohio the question is being put directly to the people.
A new Quinnipiac Poll released Tuesday showed that 57 percent of Ohio voters oppose Issue 2, while 32 percent favor it.If Issue 2 is defeated, the Senate Bill 5 will be repealed.
Looking to battle for Ohio's 18 electoral votes
A rejection of Issue 2 would be a rebuff to Kasich and perhaps an encouraging sign for Democrats and their labor union allies as they prepare to battle for Ohio’s 18 electoral votes in the 2012 presidential election.
Republican presidential contender Mitt Romney will make a visit Tuesday to the Ohio Republican Party's phone bank center in Terrace Park, a Cincinnati suburb, but is unlikely to comment on Issue 2.
In a state where Issue 2 has been dominating the political agenda in the weeks leading up to Election Day, Romney will apparently forego an opportunity to back the embattled Kasich and his stand on Issue 2.
"As for the issues: Gov. Romney believes that the citizens of states should be able to make decisions about important matters of policy that affect their states on their own," Andrea Saul, his campaign spokesperson, told NBC News.
Kasich pledged during the 2010 campaign that he’d eliminate the state budget deficit without raising taxes. “But they never discussed the specifics of how he was going to do that,” said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.
Split in voters' views
The Quinnipiac survey showed an interesting split in voters’ views about public employees.
Majorities said they oppose banning public employees from striking, oppose limiting collective bargaining rights for public sector workers, and oppose eliminating seniority as the sole factor in layoffs.
But majorities do support requiring public employees to pay at least 15 percent of their health insurance costs and to contribute ten percent of their pay towards their pensions.
“The parts of SB 5 that are popular are (state employees) contributing to the health care and retirement benefits. The governor’s argument that, ‘people in the private sector have to do this, too,’ has been a winning argument,” said Brown.
But he said the parts of SB 5 that have not been popular have been the parts limiting the ability of public employee unions to bargain with the state on behalf of their workers. First Read: Looking to Ohio
Ohio is more union-friendly state than the national average, with nearly 15 percent of the labor force represented by unions, compared to 11.9 percent nationally.
In recent speeches Kasich has urged voters to support Issue 2, but the Columbus Dispatch reported that he has also complained that “the media is transfixed on Issue 2. It's all you want to talk about, but Ohio's about more than that."
When Kasich ran in 2010, he said he wanted to re-examine the state law that gave public employees the right to strike and collective bargaining rights.
He seemed to aim his fire especially at teachers’ unions. “We need more school choice, we need to break the back of organized labor in the schools, and we need to turn our schools into institutions that excite our kids and teach them,” he said during the campaign.
The Quinnipiac survey suggests Kasich and his allies in the Legislature might have pushed beyond what most voters are willing to accept in curbing union power.
"Regardless of outcome, Gov. Kasich has already seen the political perils of balancing Ohio's budget on the backs of working people: he is one of the most unpopular governors in the nation and he has spent the last several months mired in a fight to defend an initiative that even 30 percent of Republicans oppose," said Lis Smith, communications director for the Democratic Governors Association.
But victory for Issue 2 on Election Day would suggest Kasich did not misread the 2010 mandate and that in an era of fiscal austerity voters do support union-curbing efforts.
A rejection of Issue 2 would be promising for Dems and their union allies
When Republicans won control of state legislatures and governorships from Florida to Maine to Ohio last fall, voters seemed to have steered a sharply different course from the one chosen in the Democratic triumph of 2008.
Ohio bargaining measure as a 2012 litmus
An Ohio ballot measure called Issue 2 will allow voters to uphold or undo a law enacted last spring by the Republican-controlled legislature and Gov. John Kasich that limits the ability of public employee unions to collectively bargain.
But in two weeks, the Ohio ballot will give Buckeye State voters the chance to change course yet again, at least in one 2012 battleground.
A ballot measure called Issue 2 will allow voters to uphold or repeal law, Senate Bill 5, enacted last spring by the Republican-controlled Legislature and GOP Gov. John Kasich that limits the ability of public employee unions to collectively bargain.
The law also requires performance-based pay for most public employees, limits accrual of vacation time and requires public employees to pay 15 percent of the cost of their health care benefits.
First Read: Looking to Ohio
Unlike Wisconsin, where Republican .Gov Scott Walker’s similar effort to curb union power prompted recall efforts against GOP lawmakers who supported him, in Ohio the question is being put directly to the people.
A new Quinnipiac Poll released Tuesday showed that 57 percent of Ohio voters oppose Issue 2, while 32 percent favor it.If Issue 2 is defeated, the Senate Bill 5 will be repealed.
Looking to battle for Ohio's 18 electoral votes
A rejection of Issue 2 would be a rebuff to Kasich and perhaps an encouraging sign for Democrats and their labor union allies as they prepare to battle for Ohio’s 18 electoral votes in the 2012 presidential election.
Republican presidential contender Mitt Romney will make a visit Tuesday to the Ohio Republican Party's phone bank center in Terrace Park, a Cincinnati suburb, but is unlikely to comment on Issue 2.
In a state where Issue 2 has been dominating the political agenda in the weeks leading up to Election Day, Romney will apparently forego an opportunity to back the embattled Kasich and his stand on Issue 2.
"As for the issues: Gov. Romney believes that the citizens of states should be able to make decisions about important matters of policy that affect their states on their own," Andrea Saul, his campaign spokesperson, told NBC News.
Kasich pledged during the 2010 campaign that he’d eliminate the state budget deficit without raising taxes. “But they never discussed the specifics of how he was going to do that,” said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.
Split in voters' views
The Quinnipiac survey showed an interesting split in voters’ views about public employees.
Majorities said they oppose banning public employees from striking, oppose limiting collective bargaining rights for public sector workers, and oppose eliminating seniority as the sole factor in layoffs.
But majorities do support requiring public employees to pay at least 15 percent of their health insurance costs and to contribute ten percent of their pay towards their pensions.
“The parts of SB 5 that are popular are (state employees) contributing to the health care and retirement benefits. The governor’s argument that, ‘people in the private sector have to do this, too,’ has been a winning argument,” said Brown.
But he said the parts of SB 5 that have not been popular have been the parts limiting the ability of public employee unions to bargain with the state on behalf of their workers. First Read: Looking to Ohio
Ohio is more union-friendly state than the national average, with nearly 15 percent of the labor force represented by unions, compared to 11.9 percent nationally.
In recent speeches Kasich has urged voters to support Issue 2, but the Columbus Dispatch reported that he has also complained that “the media is transfixed on Issue 2. It's all you want to talk about, but Ohio's about more than that."
When Kasich ran in 2010, he said he wanted to re-examine the state law that gave public employees the right to strike and collective bargaining rights.
He seemed to aim his fire especially at teachers’ unions. “We need more school choice, we need to break the back of organized labor in the schools, and we need to turn our schools into institutions that excite our kids and teach them,” he said during the campaign.
The Quinnipiac survey suggests Kasich and his allies in the Legislature might have pushed beyond what most voters are willing to accept in curbing union power.
"Regardless of outcome, Gov. Kasich has already seen the political perils of balancing Ohio's budget on the backs of working people: he is one of the most unpopular governors in the nation and he has spent the last several months mired in a fight to defend an initiative that even 30 percent of Republicans oppose," said Lis Smith, communications director for the Democratic Governors Association.
But victory for Issue 2 on Election Day would suggest Kasich did not misread the 2010 mandate and that in an era of fiscal austerity voters do support union-curbing efforts.
We pay our computer programmers more than those who are basically raising our kids for us? SHAME!!!!! I tell ya what, no way would I want to be a teacher after seeing what they put up with.
Starting salary for a first year teacher in Teton County Wyoming is $50k.
"I thought it was the poor income that kept the big brains away from teaching jobs . . . well, I guess that isn't true now as the average salary of many teachers in Ohio school districts is 92 grand! ...."
That statement flew off the page at me so I researched the issue for a couple of minutes.
I have seen different estimates but none of them were anywhere close to 92K unless you go by specific school district and then you see some number in the vicinity of 92K.
"In 2009, teacher salaries’ Ohio rankings from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics placed the state at number 18 in the country. With an average teacher salary in Ohio of $51,343 in 2009, Ohio teacher salaries dropped 2.57% from the previous year. The 2008 average teacher salary in Ohio was $52,695, which reflected a 2.17% increase from 2007. .."
See: http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary-ohio.html
"Looking at all Ohio public-school teachers, the average salary increased about 12 percent, reaching $56,715 for the 2010-11 school year...."
See: http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011/09/21/ohio-average-teacher-salaries-up-12-percent-since-2005/
"Ohio is sixth on our comfort scale with starting salaries of $33,671 and average salaries of $50,314. This state is a great central Midwestern location with plenty of great vacation spots within only a few hours drive...."
See: http://www.teacherportal.com/salary/Ohio-teacher-salary
The highest average teachers' salary by district was in Orange School district and was $81,534.
See:http://solon.patch.com/articles/solon-teachers-average-second-highest-salary-in-ohio
Let's say the average Ohio teacher makes between $50,000 and $57,000.
Mike
That statement flew off the page at me so I researched the issue for a couple of minutes.
I have seen different estimates but none of them were anywhere close to 92K unless you go by specific school district and then you see some number in the vicinity of 92K.
"In 2009, teacher salaries’ Ohio rankings from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics placed the state at number 18 in the country. With an average teacher salary in Ohio of $51,343 in 2009, Ohio teacher salaries dropped 2.57% from the previous year. The 2008 average teacher salary in Ohio was $52,695, which reflected a 2.17% increase from 2007. .."
See: http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary-ohio.html
"Looking at all Ohio public-school teachers, the average salary increased about 12 percent, reaching $56,715 for the 2010-11 school year...."
See: http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011/09/21/ohio-average-teacher-salaries-up-12-percent-since-2005/
"Ohio is sixth on our comfort scale with starting salaries of $33,671 and average salaries of $50,314. This state is a great central Midwestern location with plenty of great vacation spots within only a few hours drive...."
See: http://www.teacherportal.com/salary/Ohio-teacher-salary
The highest average teachers' salary by district was in Orange School district and was $81,534.
See:http://solon.patch.com/articles/solon-teachers-average-second-highest-salary-in-ohio
Let's say the average Ohio teacher makes between $50,000 and $57,000.
Mike
I also question that the reason that Republicans are doing this is because union members vote Democratic. Cause . . . wouldn't that make them vote Democratic even more so? Those are the folks against the bill----- and with Republicans being the one to pass it---- I don't think the Republicans will be counting on any of those votes any time soon.
I do think that it makes us all more equal. My husband hasn't gotten a "cost of living" raise based on years of service in years----- many years. He only gets raises for performance. And if he is ticked off about it----- he grumbles to me. He doesn't go on strike to force the issue. AND, he would get fired for lack of performance. I think when it comes to educating our youth, that should be an option that is readily used by school administrators.
Anyway, time will tell what will happen with the bill. (as in a few days at this point) There are plenty of people against it and it is a heated debate. Obviously, it isn't an easy situation and different opinions on it are to be expected.
I do think that it makes us all more equal. My husband hasn't gotten a "cost of living" raise based on years of service in years----- many years. He only gets raises for performance. And if he is ticked off about it----- he grumbles to me. He doesn't go on strike to force the issue. AND, he would get fired for lack of performance. I think when it comes to educating our youth, that should be an option that is readily used by school administrators.
Anyway, time will tell what will happen with the bill. (as in a few days at this point) There are plenty of people against it and it is a heated debate. Obviously, it isn't an easy situation and different opinions on it are to be expected.
I read a couple of things regarding labor unions this morning. According to wiki-whatever you call them, only 9% of the nations work force belong to unions. About half of the nations states are considered "union shops". (The 9% figure is the lowest since the early 1930's.)
I just think it speaks volumes that 91% of the nations work force lies "unprotected" by labor unions. In reference to the 9% being the lowest percentage since the 1930's, I think that is a direct testament to what labor unions have accomplished. KUDOS to the unions.... they accomplished what American needed, and it took a lot of work. But with 91% of the nation "unprotected", how in the world can the nation survive without unions these days?
I just think it speaks volumes that 91% of the nations work force lies "unprotected" by labor unions. In reference to the 9% being the lowest percentage since the 1930's, I think that is a direct testament to what labor unions have accomplished. KUDOS to the unions.... they accomplished what American needed, and it took a lot of work. But with 91% of the nation "unprotected", how in the world can the nation survive without unions these days?
Well, some of that I cannot argue with for sure. But, and there is always a but isnt there. Republican are attacking the right to collective bargaining and trying to bust the unions for one reason and one reason only. They vote democrat. They have been re districting as well as passing all kinds of restrictions on groups that they know vote democratic. Its not about me an u or the teachers and the firefighters and the policemen. Its politics and this is just another of their tactics to make sure they get power. Since I dont have children in school I am not equipped to speak of their abilities, but sure have never never met one that made 96thousand a year, not even my friends that had thier doctorites. He went on to be a dean of a local community college and she went on to get her license to shrink heads.
So, guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
So, guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
I thought it was the poor income that kept the big brains away from teaching jobs . . . well, I guess that isn't true now as the average salary of many teachers in Ohio school districts is 92 grand!
My rights aren't slowly being stripped away as I never had a union protecting me. I am more for equal rights and the right to keep their job whether they stink or not is not a right I ever had. AND . . . all the teachers I speak of have been teaching for 20 years plus.
So what did teachers do in the past with less than stellar students? Whack them? Yep, now schools are required to give 'equal' education to all kids by law. Is that bad? AND . . . one component of the bill that I do think could be a challenge is that with this bill---- a teacher must be responsible for the whole class meaning that if he/she has a learning disabled child or one of those folks you say offhandedly that they must act like doctor, mental health advocate, or has adhd or less desirable kid that I guess your friends felt were new to the classroom and caused them to get out of the biz--------- this bill makes all kids equal--------- teachers would now be held accountable for these students where they really weren't before. My fear is that teachers like your friends would resent these kids. OR maybe they'll rise to the occasion and not see them as burdens but rewarding challenges. I guess it would depend on the teacher. But that is one component that I think could work against kids with disabilities and I wish wasn't part of the bill.
Interesting how we have opposite views on what would be good and bad in this bill. Oh well.
Brice, I think you and I are on the same page.
Anyway, all opinions are just opinions. No right or wrong. Just discussing it without trying to be 'right'.
My rights aren't slowly being stripped away as I never had a union protecting me. I am more for equal rights and the right to keep their job whether they stink or not is not a right I ever had. AND . . . all the teachers I speak of have been teaching for 20 years plus.
So what did teachers do in the past with less than stellar students? Whack them? Yep, now schools are required to give 'equal' education to all kids by law. Is that bad? AND . . . one component of the bill that I do think could be a challenge is that with this bill---- a teacher must be responsible for the whole class meaning that if he/she has a learning disabled child or one of those folks you say offhandedly that they must act like doctor, mental health advocate, or has adhd or less desirable kid that I guess your friends felt were new to the classroom and caused them to get out of the biz--------- this bill makes all kids equal--------- teachers would now be held accountable for these students where they really weren't before. My fear is that teachers like your friends would resent these kids. OR maybe they'll rise to the occasion and not see them as burdens but rewarding challenges. I guess it would depend on the teacher. But that is one component that I think could work against kids with disabilities and I wish wasn't part of the bill.
Interesting how we have opposite views on what would be good and bad in this bill. Oh well.
Brice, I think you and I are on the same page.
Anyway, all opinions are just opinions. No right or wrong. Just discussing it without trying to be 'right'.
specialmom, I disagree that you have laws that will protect you now. They have clamped down on sexual discrimination true but all this talk about doing away with min wage and the like. All your rights are slowly being stripped imo. Like I said, it is my experience that collective bargaining is a good thing. And as far as teachers go, my best friend was a teacher and her husband as well. They got out of the industry when they took the right to handle a class room away from them, and they said they did not train to be a doctor, a mental health advocate and it was not their job to tell someone their child had add, adhd, etc. They both had their doctorites. That is what is happening to your good teachers. Only the less than great want the job anymore. Collective bargaining didnt create that situation. imo
The union does protect people from losing their jobs. You can have your opinion on it, and that's fine. But I have seen the unions protect inept peoples jobs numerous times in the last 20 years.
There are plenty of laws that protect us these days, and the unions were instrumental in making that happen. But we all have the right for collective bargaining.... When I walked in and lobbied for my contract, we all sat down and worked out something reasonable. Reasonable being the operative word. If I do not perform the tasks I said I would, or if I lacked the professionalism I said I'd exhibit at all times, I could and should be terminated. I like the idea of being held accountable on my performance.... works wonderfully.
With education, I feel the same as special mom. My mother was a teacher and a union member, not of her own doing. She worked with a few..... not so good teachers that could not be let go. The district would not discharge them of their duties. My dad was in the gambling business..... ha ha ha..... same thing there.
There are plenty of laws that protect us these days, and the unions were instrumental in making that happen. But we all have the right for collective bargaining.... When I walked in and lobbied for my contract, we all sat down and worked out something reasonable. Reasonable being the operative word. If I do not perform the tasks I said I would, or if I lacked the professionalism I said I'd exhibit at all times, I could and should be terminated. I like the idea of being held accountable on my performance.... works wonderfully.
With education, I feel the same as special mom. My mother was a teacher and a union member, not of her own doing. She worked with a few..... not so good teachers that could not be let go. The district would not discharge them of their duties. My dad was in the gambling business..... ha ha ha..... same thing there.
Life is good-------- all opinions valid. Your mother would be protected by law now as it is illegal to discriminate for sex, race or anything else in that order.
Unless the whole country has a union behind them, it doesn't work for me for unions to have special rights over others.
But I don't hold my opinion thinking that others shouldn't have different ones. Maybe the bill will be upheld and maybe not. I just vote and see where things end up. They have a powerful campaign going against the bill--- they could have more votes. I don't know. We'll find out.
School unions need some changes. I do believe that saleries and raises given to teachers should be based more on performance verses years of service. Also tenure makes it difficult to remove ineffective teachers and that shouldn't be the case.
Unless the whole country has a union behind them, it doesn't work for me for unions to have special rights over others.
But I don't hold my opinion thinking that others shouldn't have different ones. Maybe the bill will be upheld and maybe not. I just vote and see where things end up. They have a powerful campaign going against the bill--- they could have more votes. I don't know. We'll find out.
School unions need some changes. I do believe that saleries and raises given to teachers should be based more on performance verses years of service. Also tenure makes it difficult to remove ineffective teachers and that shouldn't be the case.
I believe in the right to collective bargaining rights. Since when do you take away rights? My mother would not have been able to work where she did for as long as she did and be treated equal to a man if not for unions. And uh no, the union did not keep people that did not do their job, and my poor mother did not make exuberant amounts of money as some claim either. I would vote no on issue 2. Just my opinion since Ohio is my state of birth I have an opinion.
I plan to vote to uphold the law in my state. Many reasons why--------- some big picture and some that reach the tiny world I live in. My school is rated "Excellent with Distinction", however there are three teachers that are known to be terrible. They do not teach and their classes are always behind when they move to the next grade. These teachers can not be dealt with for lack of performance (as anyone else that doesn't have a union behind them would be) due to the current union rules. The school's hands are tied when these three teachers should be fired. That is my current rant of the day.
Anyway, there are many reasons overall that I will vote to uphold the law. There is a lot of misrepresentation about what will happen if it passes but I've read the bill and while not perfect, I think it should be passed.
I voted for Kasich-------- and it is untrue that he is unpopular. I don't love the guy but Strickland was absolutely horrible that he replaced. I live in a conservative area so I always feel like my opinion on things is the norm. Ha ha. But it does seem to be the norm in the circles I travel in.
Anyway, just my two cents as I'm out the door to go work in the school library.
Anyway, there are many reasons overall that I will vote to uphold the law. There is a lot of misrepresentation about what will happen if it passes but I've read the bill and while not perfect, I think it should be passed.
I voted for Kasich-------- and it is untrue that he is unpopular. I don't love the guy but Strickland was absolutely horrible that he replaced. I live in a conservative area so I always feel like my opinion on things is the norm. Ha ha. But it does seem to be the norm in the circles I travel in.
Anyway, just my two cents as I'm out the door to go work in the school library.
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