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Military says no ‘separate but equal’ living facilities for gays
Though Congress still hasn't settled the ultimate fate of the the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell" ban on military service openly gay soldiers, one thing is clear: The military won't be establishing gay-segregated facilities to allay some service members' qualms about sharing bathrooms and showers with openly gay comrades in arms.
The Pentagon has been on the defensive over its survey on gays, which has drawn flak from advocacy groups for gay veterans and service members since military researchers sent it to 400,000 service members last week.
On Friday, Department of Defense spokesman Geoff Morrell slammed gay advocacy groups for criticizing the survey, saying their accusations “have been inflammatory in the worst case, and misleading in the best case,” according to the American Forces Press Service.
Servicemembers United, an advocacy group for gay and lesbian members of the military, has called the questions "biased and derogatory." Citizens for Repeal, another group for gays in the military, says the survey is “unprofessional, unprecedented and unnecessary." A legal advocacy group for gays and lesbians has warned them not to fill out the survey, saying that so long as the gay ban is in force, their replies could be used to out them and discharge them from the military. (The Pentagon says participants' identities will remain private, and denies that any respondent would be outed or discharged as a result of completing the questionnaire.)
Morrell defended the portion of the survey that asks about "privacy" concerns, such as how a respondent would feel sharing an open bay shower with a gay comrade.
“We think it would be irresponsible to conduct a survey that didn’t address these questions, because when ‘don't ask, don't tell’ is repealed, we will have to determine if there are any challenges in those particular areas, any adjustments that need to be made in terms of how we educate the force, or perhaps even facility adjustments that need to be made to deal with those scenarios," Morrell said Friday, according to the American Forces Press Service.
Writers at liberal blogs Talking Points Memo, ThinkProgress and Americablog interpreted Morrell's statement on "facility adjustments" to mean the military could consider creating separate bathing or living facilities for gay troops, since the questions on privacy focused on sharing living spaces with gay comrades. But on Monday, Morrell told Igor Volsky of ThinkProgress that segregated facilities are "absolutely off the table."
However, Morrell told Stephanie Condon of CBS that the military may consider small facility changes like adding shower curtains. "We don't know if any adjustments will be required, but we need to survey the force to get an idea of what their privacy concerns are," he told Condon.
Morrell said the survey is not a referendum on the repeal of the policy, but rather research to aid Pentagon officials in implementing a repeal if and when it comes to pass.
In May, the House of Representatives voted to end the ban pending the military's completion of its internal policy review. The Senate has yet to vote on the repeal.
Yahoo news
The Pentagon has been on the defensive over its survey on gays, which has drawn flak from advocacy groups for gay veterans and service members since military researchers sent it to 400,000 service members last week.
On Friday, Department of Defense spokesman Geoff Morrell slammed gay advocacy groups for criticizing the survey, saying their accusations “have been inflammatory in the worst case, and misleading in the best case,” according to the American Forces Press Service.
Servicemembers United, an advocacy group for gay and lesbian members of the military, has called the questions "biased and derogatory." Citizens for Repeal, another group for gays in the military, says the survey is “unprofessional, unprecedented and unnecessary." A legal advocacy group for gays and lesbians has warned them not to fill out the survey, saying that so long as the gay ban is in force, their replies could be used to out them and discharge them from the military. (The Pentagon says participants' identities will remain private, and denies that any respondent would be outed or discharged as a result of completing the questionnaire.)
Morrell defended the portion of the survey that asks about "privacy" concerns, such as how a respondent would feel sharing an open bay shower with a gay comrade.
“We think it would be irresponsible to conduct a survey that didn’t address these questions, because when ‘don't ask, don't tell’ is repealed, we will have to determine if there are any challenges in those particular areas, any adjustments that need to be made in terms of how we educate the force, or perhaps even facility adjustments that need to be made to deal with those scenarios," Morrell said Friday, according to the American Forces Press Service.
Writers at liberal blogs Talking Points Memo, ThinkProgress and Americablog interpreted Morrell's statement on "facility adjustments" to mean the military could consider creating separate bathing or living facilities for gay troops, since the questions on privacy focused on sharing living spaces with gay comrades. But on Monday, Morrell told Igor Volsky of ThinkProgress that segregated facilities are "absolutely off the table."
However, Morrell told Stephanie Condon of CBS that the military may consider small facility changes like adding shower curtains. "We don't know if any adjustments will be required, but we need to survey the force to get an idea of what their privacy concerns are," he told Condon.
Morrell said the survey is not a referendum on the repeal of the policy, but rather research to aid Pentagon officials in implementing a repeal if and when it comes to pass.
In May, the House of Representatives voted to end the ban pending the military's completion of its internal policy review. The Senate has yet to vote on the repeal.
Yahoo news
I think the problem is that you have to look at this as a constitutional dilemma that we created for ourselves by recognizing gays as an alternative lifestyle. Once we did that, it automatically afforded them the same rights under the law.
Now, Biblically this whole topic does get muddied a bit. Yes the bible does stipulate these things as things that are wrong. But abortion is as well and it is legal as well, it is not against the law to lie but per the bible it is. so you have to be very careful here. Not to mention the fact that not everyone believes the same way, no matter how right or wrong one thinks this is, the fact is, we made it an issue to be reckoned with.
This is a good situation to make us look at why we have separation of church and state.
I have actually had people tell me that I am not a christian because of my views on this subject. My views on this subject are irrelevant when you look at it in the light of what the constitution says, so what to do? Put the worms back in the can? Too late folks...Now it is inevitable that they be given same rights. You created it, deal with it? Once you open that can of worms, you cannot go back. So regardless of how we feel, it is what it is. I have also noticed the lifestyle is no big deal to the younger generation. They think nothing of it. So when my old acc is gone, this will be moot issue.
Now, Biblically this whole topic does get muddied a bit. Yes the bible does stipulate these things as things that are wrong. But abortion is as well and it is legal as well, it is not against the law to lie but per the bible it is. so you have to be very careful here. Not to mention the fact that not everyone believes the same way, no matter how right or wrong one thinks this is, the fact is, we made it an issue to be reckoned with.
This is a good situation to make us look at why we have separation of church and state.
I have actually had people tell me that I am not a christian because of my views on this subject. My views on this subject are irrelevant when you look at it in the light of what the constitution says, so what to do? Put the worms back in the can? Too late folks...Now it is inevitable that they be given same rights. You created it, deal with it? Once you open that can of worms, you cannot go back. So regardless of how we feel, it is what it is. I have also noticed the lifestyle is no big deal to the younger generation. They think nothing of it. So when my old acc is gone, this will be moot issue.
Belief System
We live in a world that has removed Prayer and Religious Symbols from State and Federal Property. This has primarily been done every time someone is offended and complains because it is against their Belief System. Our Government caves in under the excuse of Separation of Church and State and doesn’t really care about the majority’s Belief System.
Now they are forcing our Military (that works for the Government) to openly live and shower with Homosexuals and their Belief System about it is a moot point.
If they really wanted to be fair about it they should tell our Soldiers, we know this was not the policy you signed up for and may be against your Belief System. Therefore we are in Breach of Contract and will allow you out of your contract with us. This will never happen because we all know the majority would threaten to leave thus forcing the Government to reconsider their own Belief System.
For now we have a Volunteer Military. What happens if we have to reinstate the draft?
We will be forcing (the key word here is forcing) every young man (and possibly woman) to live and shower with Homosexuals making all of their Belief Systems a moot point.
If we want to bring the Bible into this, like Sodom and Gomorra, God has every Right to come in and destroy us all.
We live in a world that has removed Prayer and Religious Symbols from State and Federal Property. This has primarily been done every time someone is offended and complains because it is against their Belief System. Our Government caves in under the excuse of Separation of Church and State and doesn’t really care about the majority’s Belief System.
Now they are forcing our Military (that works for the Government) to openly live and shower with Homosexuals and their Belief System about it is a moot point.
If they really wanted to be fair about it they should tell our Soldiers, we know this was not the policy you signed up for and may be against your Belief System. Therefore we are in Breach of Contract and will allow you out of your contract with us. This will never happen because we all know the majority would threaten to leave thus forcing the Government to reconsider their own Belief System.
For now we have a Volunteer Military. What happens if we have to reinstate the draft?
We will be forcing (the key word here is forcing) every young man (and possibly woman) to live and shower with Homosexuals making all of their Belief Systems a moot point.
If we want to bring the Bible into this, like Sodom and Gomorra, God has every Right to come in and destroy us all.
The step of leaving the Bible to us to interpret in our image will not lead to utopia. I read the whole Bible and never saw in it where a black person should sit at the back of the bus. What I did read was that people made other people subject to what they believed God was telling them but it also records their disobedience and the captivity that became their means of waking them up again and again and led to their seeking HIs wisdom.
I read it and agonized over the hard parts that I couldn't sweep away under the rug. Mostly in the Old Testament. So, maybe for me, and I cannot speak for anyone else, my simplicity is that if we being "imperfect" pick and choose the values according to our time, and we are wrong.....we bring much pain and sorrow to following generations just like the previous ones have done for us. What we do does affect each other.
Transparency is better because it doesn't hide behind the smiles and lies and discriminate secretly but say, "we found someone more suited for this job" and leave you not knowing the real reason. It doesn't give harbor to the root cause of something so that it cannot be dug up and faced to be changed for the best.
Moral decay in any generation eventually led to the ruin of the people unless there was a turn about. We cannot deny our society is falling apart. We are not safer in communities than when I was a child. The corruption we have vented about is part of this. I liken it to where I read in the OTestament when people were told to destroy practices that led to corruption but they didn't and sometimes it was worse than ever.
Maybe the admonition against mixed fabrics had more to do with how things get clouded when they are put together in such a way that leads to confusion. I believe the Bible has stood the test of time because there is truth in it. It provided a guideline for thinking of things that dealt with challenges and led people to examine the motives of why they did what they did.
The concept of love and forgiveness are powerful and life saving...taking care of the widow and fatherless child and leaving food in the fields so the poor could have something to fill empty stomachs was something good. Now days, corporations (not all american) own a good percentage of the fields and food supplies.
Most americans don't have health insurance. I am now one of them as of July 1st. Tell me about uptopia. I started writing years ago to politicians telling them they have benefits that we can only dream of. Who did this to America?
The fact is that we are divided in what we believe. That isn't all bad as something good can come out of our bringing our selves together to work together for the better. Pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away. Looking at the reasons why will help us understand. I have been up front in my view and will be respectful of the differing views as each of us has the freedom ideally to believe what we want to. In reality, motives are the true indicator and that is something that is a private domain between each of us and our Creator (for those who believe in One). No one can do the deep heart inspection for us. It takes courage to stare in the face of our weakness and admit we need to change and be willing to seek the means to do so.
You cannot legislate by law " wrong" and call it "right" and expect that doing so will make it so if it is not. How many times throughout History have their been unfair laws? What led to uprisings? Uprisings reflected the need for change. Why do we have tea parties, etc. now?
Labelling something a hate crime to silence someone will not make a wrong right. What it is doing is profiling. I have thought long and hard and cannot find acceptance to what I consider a perversion based on a sense of right/wrong in my heart...not because someone told me to or talked me into it. I feel the same way about incest ..child or adult.
I had to face this early because that man/woman I referred to in an earlier post...are my older brother and sister. I anguished over the right/wrong in their situation. Put yourself in my shoes. They are my blood kin. How was I to love them but not actively go along with their lifestyle? It has not been an easy path. I listened to my oldest neice as she had to face the reality of who her parents are and that she is more like a double neice.
Try that one on for size. To all appearances they live like others. A pastor even told them it was alright as long as they loved each other. I figure that there is a reason that we go through what we do and mine is that it hit home the reality of the confusion and moral decay in my country and how someone can be deluded going about their business as if everything is normal. Heck, my brother ran a successful business. Who would have known?
I read it and agonized over the hard parts that I couldn't sweep away under the rug. Mostly in the Old Testament. So, maybe for me, and I cannot speak for anyone else, my simplicity is that if we being "imperfect" pick and choose the values according to our time, and we are wrong.....we bring much pain and sorrow to following generations just like the previous ones have done for us. What we do does affect each other.
Transparency is better because it doesn't hide behind the smiles and lies and discriminate secretly but say, "we found someone more suited for this job" and leave you not knowing the real reason. It doesn't give harbor to the root cause of something so that it cannot be dug up and faced to be changed for the best.
Moral decay in any generation eventually led to the ruin of the people unless there was a turn about. We cannot deny our society is falling apart. We are not safer in communities than when I was a child. The corruption we have vented about is part of this. I liken it to where I read in the OTestament when people were told to destroy practices that led to corruption but they didn't and sometimes it was worse than ever.
Maybe the admonition against mixed fabrics had more to do with how things get clouded when they are put together in such a way that leads to confusion. I believe the Bible has stood the test of time because there is truth in it. It provided a guideline for thinking of things that dealt with challenges and led people to examine the motives of why they did what they did.
The concept of love and forgiveness are powerful and life saving...taking care of the widow and fatherless child and leaving food in the fields so the poor could have something to fill empty stomachs was something good. Now days, corporations (not all american) own a good percentage of the fields and food supplies.
Most americans don't have health insurance. I am now one of them as of July 1st. Tell me about uptopia. I started writing years ago to politicians telling them they have benefits that we can only dream of. Who did this to America?
The fact is that we are divided in what we believe. That isn't all bad as something good can come out of our bringing our selves together to work together for the better. Pretending it doesn't exist won't make it go away. Looking at the reasons why will help us understand. I have been up front in my view and will be respectful of the differing views as each of us has the freedom ideally to believe what we want to. In reality, motives are the true indicator and that is something that is a private domain between each of us and our Creator (for those who believe in One). No one can do the deep heart inspection for us. It takes courage to stare in the face of our weakness and admit we need to change and be willing to seek the means to do so.
You cannot legislate by law " wrong" and call it "right" and expect that doing so will make it so if it is not. How many times throughout History have their been unfair laws? What led to uprisings? Uprisings reflected the need for change. Why do we have tea parties, etc. now?
Labelling something a hate crime to silence someone will not make a wrong right. What it is doing is profiling. I have thought long and hard and cannot find acceptance to what I consider a perversion based on a sense of right/wrong in my heart...not because someone told me to or talked me into it. I feel the same way about incest ..child or adult.
I had to face this early because that man/woman I referred to in an earlier post...are my older brother and sister. I anguished over the right/wrong in their situation. Put yourself in my shoes. They are my blood kin. How was I to love them but not actively go along with their lifestyle? It has not been an easy path. I listened to my oldest neice as she had to face the reality of who her parents are and that she is more like a double neice.
Try that one on for size. To all appearances they live like others. A pastor even told them it was alright as long as they loved each other. I figure that there is a reason that we go through what we do and mine is that it hit home the reality of the confusion and moral decay in my country and how someone can be deluded going about their business as if everything is normal. Heck, my brother ran a successful business. Who would have known?
I sure agree with you that our moral boundaries are changing. That is evident in so many ways. For some the changes are negative, for others positive, I guess again so much depends on your belief system and your own value system. And again, that is something based on your own experiences and belief system, so it is not something anyone can tell you is wrong.
There are so many things going on in today's society that I disagree with. Sometimes I do wish we could go back in time, but when I think about the lack of rights for so many, I somehow think I wouldn't fit in very well..lol. Women's rights, racial equality, so on and so on. All of these were fought for and eventually came to be accepted. It's sort of funny....my husbands grandmother wrote a journal for him based on her beliefs and I can see so much is a a result of the times she lived in. For example, she stated her belief that women should not participate in gov't..she couldn't even fathom a women being President or Prime Minister. Yet today most of us wouldn't even think twice. To me that is progress.
As for biblical beliefs, I too am influenced by them and have often struggled with that. But there is also much in the bible that I could not imagine practicing today, so for me anyway, this is just one more issue.
I don't know....it's not for me to say if I am right or wrong, it's just my personal belief system. I also try really hard to keep an open mind and consider all perspectives and views. This is just one of those that I don't think I will change my mind on. I just can't see it as any different then when women finally got the right to vote, or charge their abusive husbands. Or when black people stopped having to ride on the back of the bus or eat in seperate restaurants. Maybe I am overly simplistic, or again, overly idealistic. Maybe I do live in Utopia sometimes.
There are so many things going on in today's society that I disagree with. Sometimes I do wish we could go back in time, but when I think about the lack of rights for so many, I somehow think I wouldn't fit in very well..lol. Women's rights, racial equality, so on and so on. All of these were fought for and eventually came to be accepted. It's sort of funny....my husbands grandmother wrote a journal for him based on her beliefs and I can see so much is a a result of the times she lived in. For example, she stated her belief that women should not participate in gov't..she couldn't even fathom a women being President or Prime Minister. Yet today most of us wouldn't even think twice. To me that is progress.
As for biblical beliefs, I too am influenced by them and have often struggled with that. But there is also much in the bible that I could not imagine practicing today, so for me anyway, this is just one more issue.
I don't know....it's not for me to say if I am right or wrong, it's just my personal belief system. I also try really hard to keep an open mind and consider all perspectives and views. This is just one of those that I don't think I will change my mind on. I just can't see it as any different then when women finally got the right to vote, or charge their abusive husbands. Or when black people stopped having to ride on the back of the bus or eat in seperate restaurants. Maybe I am overly simplistic, or again, overly idealistic. Maybe I do live in Utopia sometimes.
I look at it like a door being open. It is one that others in different times and countries have had to close. There was a reason. We cannot say we are any more mature than they were. In many ways, our ancestors dealt better with situations. We have come to rely on a lot of artificial things. We are soft compared to our Ancestors who sacrificed in ways we would put a fuss up over.
I am thinking about the "consent" viewpoint. I would like to see more studies done on adult homosexuals who have not been abused or been in one parent families...predominantly mothers.
R. Glass has taken the words out of my mouth & used the same things I have said at some point in my rounds with my DH over this issue. He has no problem with it and said the same thing you did about "consent" when I brought up the dead, the animals, the children, etc.
I have even tried to think of it as another category...instead of Adam/Eve...Adam/Eve/Steve/Edie/Petie.......because when you start breaking down preferences.....you keep adding to. I read over a month ago about someone wanting a virtual wife (video game) & actually marrying her. Your lack of consent could fit this however if a program is written to say..."yes" ...then she gives her consent. I forget if it was Korea or Japan.
This opens the door to what "consent" really means. In movies years ago, John Wayne took women's no's as yes.....and spanked the women, threw them over his shoulder and they acted mad and indignant but ended up swooning in his arms.
Our whole concepts are changing because of the possibilities of how things can be.
I am influenced by the Bible, I will admit. The examples in the Old testament. Plus history with decadence came orgies/homosexuality. It didn't survive the Roman Empire.
I have lots of reseverations but am willing to investigate and consider the viewpoints.
I am thinking about the "consent" viewpoint. I would like to see more studies done on adult homosexuals who have not been abused or been in one parent families...predominantly mothers.
R. Glass has taken the words out of my mouth & used the same things I have said at some point in my rounds with my DH over this issue. He has no problem with it and said the same thing you did about "consent" when I brought up the dead, the animals, the children, etc.
I have even tried to think of it as another category...instead of Adam/Eve...Adam/Eve/Steve/Edie/Petie.......because when you start breaking down preferences.....you keep adding to. I read over a month ago about someone wanting a virtual wife (video game) & actually marrying her. Your lack of consent could fit this however if a program is written to say..."yes" ...then she gives her consent. I forget if it was Korea or Japan.
This opens the door to what "consent" really means. In movies years ago, John Wayne took women's no's as yes.....and spanked the women, threw them over his shoulder and they acted mad and indignant but ended up swooning in his arms.
Our whole concepts are changing because of the possibilities of how things can be.
I am influenced by the Bible, I will admit. The examples in the Old testament. Plus history with decadence came orgies/homosexuality. It didn't survive the Roman Empire.
I have lots of reseverations but am willing to investigate and consider the viewpoints.
I know, I am being a little extreme.
<<<<Going to bed, see ya’ll sometime tomorrow.
<<<<Going to bed, see ya’ll sometime tomorrow.
But you know, you do bring up a good point. I do find those things morally reprehensible. If I am not happy with a law, or think it should be changed, I have no problem saying that. So point taken. And honestly, I am not trying to tell you your feelings are wrong. As I said, they are your feelings, and I respect them.
That's not the same thing. A corpse cannot say they are ok with it, so it's like raping a dead body. Same with animals. An animal can't give consent.
My belief comes down to this...if everyone is legally an adult and gives consent, is willing and happy about it, it's fine. If it involves someone (or something..yuck) that cannot or does not, it is rape or a form of it. That is why it needs to remain illegal to have sex with a child. A child is not capable of forming consent.
Sorry, I just can't see any of these issues as being anywhere near the same thing.
My belief comes down to this...if everyone is legally an adult and gives consent, is willing and happy about it, it's fine. If it involves someone (or something..yuck) that cannot or does not, it is rape or a form of it. That is why it needs to remain illegal to have sex with a child. A child is not capable of forming consent.
Sorry, I just can't see any of these issues as being anywhere near the same thing.
“The issue I have is that being gay is legal. It wasn't always, but it is now. So, if something is recognized as being legal, I personally feel the same rights should be awarded as they would be to anyone else. Once again, for me, this comes down to a civil rights issue, and I don't believe that segregation is the answer.”
If this is your argument then you should have no problem with these people.
MADISON, Wis. — Wisconsin law bans sex with dead bodies, the state Supreme Court ruled Wednesday in reinstating charges against three men accused of digging up a corpse so one of them could have sex with it.
The court waded into the grisly case after lower court judges ruled nothing in state law banned necrophilia. Those decisions prompted public outrage and a push by a state lawmaker to make sex with a corpse a crime.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25609866/
Sexual abuse against animals is not permitted in 34 states including Georgia, but in Florida, bestiality is legal But one lawmaker is making it his mission to fight for a bill that will punish those that abuse animals and make them pay the ultimate price for it. Representative Bill Heller wants to fight for those who don't have a voice.
http://www.wctv.tv/news/headlines/17093521.html
If this is your argument then you should have no problem with these people.
MADISON, Wis. — Wisconsin law bans sex with dead bodies, the state Supreme Court ruled Wednesday in reinstating charges against three men accused of digging up a corpse so one of them could have sex with it.
The court waded into the grisly case after lower court judges ruled nothing in state law banned necrophilia. Those decisions prompted public outrage and a push by a state lawmaker to make sex with a corpse a crime.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25609866/
Sexual abuse against animals is not permitted in 34 states including Georgia, but in Florida, bestiality is legal But one lawmaker is making it his mission to fight for a bill that will punish those that abuse animals and make them pay the ultimate price for it. Representative Bill Heller wants to fight for those who don't have a voice.
http://www.wctv.tv/news/headlines/17093521.html
I had to laugh at your comment about "it is he that wants to see you naked, all else is irrelevant". I can remember sitting around with some friends talking about women complaining about being overweight, etc. etc. and not wanting their boyfriends/husbands seeing them naked because of that. The men listened for awhile, then one piped up..."we don't care what you look like, just that your naked"...lol. Did not go ever big with his wife....
In my opinion you have hit the nail on the head. By that I mean your comment about being morally acceptable. Truly this is what the entire issue boils down to. The challenge is, that is a subjective opinion, so how do you enforce something that is subjective. I understand your discomfort, and certainly no one can tell you how you should feel. Your feelings are your own and should always be respected. The issue I have is that being gay is legal. It wasn't always, but it is now. So, if something is recognized as being legal, I personally feel the same rights should be awarded as they would be to anyone else. Once again, for me, this comes down to a civil rights issue, and I don't believe that segregation is the answer.
As for child molestation and incest, those are illegal acts and should remain so. So I just can't see it as the same thing. A child cannot consent, but what two consenting adults do should be their business. Again, all my opinion.
As for child molestation and incest, those are illegal acts and should remain so. So I just can't see it as the same thing. A child cannot consent, but what two consenting adults do should be their business. Again, all my opinion.
Here is another one that is worth reading
http://usacac.army.mil/blog/blogs/cgsc_student_blog/archive/2010/03/25/reviewing-don-t-ask-don-t-tell.aspx
http://usacac.army.mil/blog/blogs/cgsc_student_blog/archive/2010/03/25/reviewing-don-t-ask-don-t-tell.aspx
I found a variety of responses to broaden the view
http://*****************/question/index?qid=20090311151856AAltLHF
http://*****************/question/index?qid=20090311151856AAltLHF
The male doesn’t care if you are chemically attracted to him nor does he care if you want to see him naked. It is he that wants to see you naked and all else is irrelevant. That’s just the way we are wired. Now if Gay Men were not wired this way, Gay Men would be an oxymoron.
to be fair there are signs that are more obvious in a man who is sexually aroused than in women...however, that aside...I think that any time someone oggles someone else in the shower, be it a man oggling a man, a man oggling a woman, a woman oggling a woman or a woman oggling a man...it's rude and an invasion of reasonable privacy and sexuality should have no bearing.
I honestly don't think a homosexual male is going to be any less capable of conducting himself properly, so I would assume it's a moot point unless the person in question has a history of inappropriate sexual conduct...in which case it would be just as problematic as if he were straight.
I honestly don't think a homosexual male is going to be any less capable of conducting himself properly, so I would assume it's a moot point unless the person in question has a history of inappropriate sexual conduct...in which case it would be just as problematic as if he were straight.
I can understand that point of view as well but here is how I see it. I go to the gym and showr and there is always others in there. Some of those women could be gay, and in school we took showers together and the same there too. Would I have a problem with a lesbian seeing me naked, no... Because to me there has to be a chemical reaction. If I am not chemically attracted to a man, seeing him naked doesnt do anything for me either, so maybe I am naive. How many men stand next to another at a urinal every single day. Are they sure no one is gay that may be standing next to them? I have been subjected to a transvestite in the same bathroom as me. We never know. Just my thoughts. Now if someone were to touch me that way, PROBLEM!
“ This has existed since the beginning of time”
I have to disagree with your logic on this one. Both incest and child molestation can be traced way back in history. Just because of its history doesn’t make it morally acceptable. Being a heterosexual male, I would not feel comfortable showering with a Homosexual.
I have to disagree with your logic on this one. Both incest and child molestation can be traced way back in history. Just because of its history doesn’t make it morally acceptable. Being a heterosexual male, I would not feel comfortable showering with a Homosexual.
:-) Thanks for sharing.
I think you have a good point there that this has been going on for a very long time & kept under wraps.
I hope others will share their views too.
I think you have a good point there that this has been going on for a very long time & kept under wraps.
I hope others will share their views too.
I've had this conversation many times over the years with friends of mine that are gay/lesbian, and I had the same position as you did, so I completely understand what your saying. Basically, the answer I was given was to remember that when in the shower, etc. we are talking about the same body parts. Men and women are different, so it makes sense to give them a sense of privacy. But gay men and straight men look the same, so to them (at least the one's I know) it is not a big deal. I was also reminded (on many occasions..lol) that being gay or lesbian is nothing new. This has existed since the beginning of time, it just wasn't spoken of..much like the Don't ask Don't tell policy. So these people have been showering together already while serving. Its the same in gym locker rooms, schools, etc. and has been that way forever. I understand why people might feel uncomfortable at first. But I really think that it won't take long for most to realize it just isn't that big an issue. It is not the same thing as sexually innapropriate behaviour or sexual perversion. Any acts of that sort, be it from a straight or gay individual should never be tolerated. But most people aren't animals and can behave appropriately. The one's that can't shouldn't be allowed to remain. To segregate based on sexual orientation just continues to feed into the fear and doesn't allow for change. If people aren't exposed to this openly, they are not given the opportunity to see there is nothing different about them.
:-)
The bigger picture is that it isn't about one person's view. The neat thing about discussions is that we can be open to listen to many views.
The bigger picture is that it isn't about one person's view. The neat thing about discussions is that we can be open to listen to many views.
Out of everything you wrote in that great post,
“ things can change through "tweaking" stood out the most.
“ things can change through "tweaking" stood out the most.
LOL...no. It means that I am open to my view changing if it is wrong. We each start with views some never fully voiced until something brings them out. I am a firm believer in being transparent because that is a way things can change through "tweaking"..."adaptation"...."realizing a view bigger than the perspective one starts with".
I am starting with my own in how I would feel. However, if the majority are alright or even some, I will read/listen to their perspective to learn.
With my view, this is the first time I have ever publicly written anything about it. The only one I have ever discussed to any degree and it was years ago when it was a topic, is my DH. Other than that, I kept it private.
........
That said, I realize that there are many, many others with other experiences, so please, share yours as I will honestly read it and think it through.
thank you :-)))
I am starting with my own in how I would feel. However, if the majority are alright or even some, I will read/listen to their perspective to learn.
With my view, this is the first time I have ever publicly written anything about it. The only one I have ever discussed to any degree and it was years ago when it was a topic, is my DH. Other than that, I kept it private.
........
That said, I realize that there are many, many others with other experiences, so please, share yours as I will honestly read it and think it through.
thank you :-)))
Great post and I couldn’t help but notice how it ended.
Was this on purpose or I’m I a pervert?
“How many men/women keep their mouths closed.
there is more discussion needed here rather than turning a "blind" eye.”
Was this on purpose or I’m I a pervert?
“How many men/women keep their mouths closed.
there is more discussion needed here rather than turning a "blind" eye.”
Ok. I have been going around & around on this one with my DH.
TIme to be on another track...lol!
I read through the posts in this article on the site I found it & found at least 2 that said it better than me...but here goes.
I think there are too many unknown variables & risky to say the least. In a fox hole is different than a shower and or beds. I cry..."discrimination".......years ago when I first heard this angle and hearing it again....haven't changed my view yet:
A guy who is a gay seeing a naked man (lets say for the sake of arguing, he ignores the straight naked man) who is gay like him....hard for a red-blooded gay man to keep the organ flacid. Free porn shows...ideal dream material to finish off when alone.
Bottom line...why should someone with a bent towards same sex get to be in with them just because he is physically a male. Same thing for the women...so why stop at separating the men...and let's not leave out those who are neither (yes, it happens...Jim Sinclair who openly admits he is male/female) ......to give respect to their privacy.
We don't put the women in with the men to be naked together. Why suddenly is it ok for gay men to be naked with straight men, same with lesbians? The reasoning that their minds are on the war won't hold water with me. As I stated above, women are in separate showers from the men.
I would not want to undress let along be naked with someone who has an interest in those who are shaped similar to me.
I see it as a violation of privacy.
As far as being in a war...there is time to play. Countless stories attest to this. A former client of mine who has since died was on the front lines in Germany...told me about being disturbed by seeing the "bl.w..j.bs" , etc. done openly over there. My older brother was in Panama...drugs/sex were plentiful there. Heard others talk about their experiences & in Viet nam....lots of unclaimed children from relationships.
How nice it is to limit one's view. This is the concern when people start demanding "fair" treatment. Hands off...don't look, don't tell....maybe in an Utopian Society, none of the things that concern me would not happen. But I am not from Kansas.
Now and then we get the scoops on how women are sexually abused in the military. How many men/women keep their mouths closed.
there is more discussion needed here rather than turning a "blind" eye.
TIme to be on another track...lol!
I read through the posts in this article on the site I found it & found at least 2 that said it better than me...but here goes.
I think there are too many unknown variables & risky to say the least. In a fox hole is different than a shower and or beds. I cry..."discrimination".......years ago when I first heard this angle and hearing it again....haven't changed my view yet:
A guy who is a gay seeing a naked man (lets say for the sake of arguing, he ignores the straight naked man) who is gay like him....hard for a red-blooded gay man to keep the organ flacid. Free porn shows...ideal dream material to finish off when alone.
Bottom line...why should someone with a bent towards same sex get to be in with them just because he is physically a male. Same thing for the women...so why stop at separating the men...and let's not leave out those who are neither (yes, it happens...Jim Sinclair who openly admits he is male/female) ......to give respect to their privacy.
We don't put the women in with the men to be naked together. Why suddenly is it ok for gay men to be naked with straight men, same with lesbians? The reasoning that their minds are on the war won't hold water with me. As I stated above, women are in separate showers from the men.
I would not want to undress let along be naked with someone who has an interest in those who are shaped similar to me.
I see it as a violation of privacy.
As far as being in a war...there is time to play. Countless stories attest to this. A former client of mine who has since died was on the front lines in Germany...told me about being disturbed by seeing the "bl.w..j.bs" , etc. done openly over there. My older brother was in Panama...drugs/sex were plentiful there. Heard others talk about their experiences & in Viet nam....lots of unclaimed children from relationships.
How nice it is to limit one's view. This is the concern when people start demanding "fair" treatment. Hands off...don't look, don't tell....maybe in an Utopian Society, none of the things that concern me would not happen. But I am not from Kansas.
Now and then we get the scoops on how women are sexually abused in the military. How many men/women keep their mouths closed.
there is more discussion needed here rather than turning a "blind" eye.
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