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Security versus Civil liberties
http://www.edelman.com/post/government-surveillance-civil-liberties-and-trust/
by Jonathan Litchman
Published June 10, 2013
"The recent revelations of government surveillance of cell phone usage and Internet communications has raised many legitimate and important issues. These include the protection of civil liberties, government oversight of intelligence activities and the need to protect the nation from the myriad threats of terrorism, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and cyber attacks.
What has been largely lacking from the media coverage and the response from government officials is just how this national discussion is most appropriately and effectively conducted. The outcome of this debate is extremely important for the security of the nation, but equally important is the manner in which the debate is carried out because this will have a significant impact on the trust the American people have in their government and its leaders, a level of trust that is already critically deficient.
President Obama has stated correctly “you cannot have 100 percent security and then also have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience.” He is absolutely right in his assessment that “we’re going to have to make some choices as a society” when it comes to the question of what is the correct balance between security and civil liberties."
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We have been discussing this issue in the abstract and I think for me that is why it is so hard to figure out my stance.
I do not believe covert operations should be transparent. It is a ridiculous conflict of terms. If you have ever read any of the George Smiley spy novels you see how complex a situation may be and how the good guys are sometimes that bad guys. That issue is for another thread.
My point is our Gov't will sometimes be in the wrong, the question is can we trust this and future Gov'ts to protect us, because without our constitutional rights we are no longer protected. How far can we allow the erosion of our rights to go before we realize too late, that we have no recourse to object?
Barb gave some good examples of possible scenarios. Most of us have lived long enough to know that we can never be too complacent reading even a little of World History will be enough to realize that we can take nothing for granted.
I think this could be an interesting discussion.
by Jonathan Litchman
Published June 10, 2013
"The recent revelations of government surveillance of cell phone usage and Internet communications has raised many legitimate and important issues. These include the protection of civil liberties, government oversight of intelligence activities and the need to protect the nation from the myriad threats of terrorism, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and cyber attacks.
What has been largely lacking from the media coverage and the response from government officials is just how this national discussion is most appropriately and effectively conducted. The outcome of this debate is extremely important for the security of the nation, but equally important is the manner in which the debate is carried out because this will have a significant impact on the trust the American people have in their government and its leaders, a level of trust that is already critically deficient.
President Obama has stated correctly “you cannot have 100 percent security and then also have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience.” He is absolutely right in his assessment that “we’re going to have to make some choices as a society” when it comes to the question of what is the correct balance between security and civil liberties."
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We have been discussing this issue in the abstract and I think for me that is why it is so hard to figure out my stance.
I do not believe covert operations should be transparent. It is a ridiculous conflict of terms. If you have ever read any of the George Smiley spy novels you see how complex a situation may be and how the good guys are sometimes that bad guys. That issue is for another thread.
My point is our Gov't will sometimes be in the wrong, the question is can we trust this and future Gov'ts to protect us, because without our constitutional rights we are no longer protected. How far can we allow the erosion of our rights to go before we realize too late, that we have no recourse to object?
Barb gave some good examples of possible scenarios. Most of us have lived long enough to know that we can never be too complacent reading even a little of World History will be enough to realize that we can take nothing for granted.
I think this could be an interesting discussion.
Insidious. I think the government is trying to be insidious. I'll start with food legislation. We've got elected government officials telling us what we should be eating. (You were elected to govern, not give out health information.) The overwhelming majority of people in this country have a pretty good understanding what "healthier choices" are. A lot of us indulge in things we shouldn't and there is indeed a price to pay for that.
With that being said, some Americans are really into extreme sports. An error in some of these sports will kill you today, right now.... and we don't have elected officials walking around telling us "don't do that". Even people who don't know "healthier food choices" knows that there is a risk to sky diving.
Personal choice and the freedom to make those choices is crucial in our society.
With that being said, some Americans are really into extreme sports. An error in some of these sports will kill you today, right now.... and we don't have elected officials walking around telling us "don't do that". Even people who don't know "healthier food choices" knows that there is a risk to sky diving.
Personal choice and the freedom to make those choices is crucial in our society.
Yep. :)
"Your worst enemy, he reflected, was your nervous system. At any moment the tension inside you was liable to translate itself into some visible symptom."
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 6
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 6
"Taking risks and giving up rights are not the same thing. Every time the government takes away a possible risk, so so they take away one or more rights. "The government will protect us".... don't think that for a minute."
I totally agree.
The other thread is important and I wish I had just posted the article on that one. I had just finished reading different opinions about the issue and liked what Edelman says.
One thing is I can really see how conspiracy theories are born. Every disaster is suspect...but I keep coming back to the question, 'Who is the enemy...?'
I totally agree.
The other thread is important and I wish I had just posted the article on that one. I had just finished reading different opinions about the issue and liked what Edelman says.
One thing is I can really see how conspiracy theories are born. Every disaster is suspect...but I keep coming back to the question, 'Who is the enemy...?'
"How far can we allow the erosion of our rights to go before we realize too late, that we have no recourse to object?" I think we've already gone too far." I completely agree.
"If we move forward these are just a few of the risks we as a nation will endure imo." Taking risks and giving up rights are not the same thing. Every time the government takes away a possible risk, so so they take away one or more rights. "The government will protect us".... don't think that for a minute.
"All we need to do is give up a little of this and a little of that to feel safe until we are left with no protection." We no longer have protection, because over the years, we've given up "a little of this and a little of that".
I don't believe that all this technology has stopped so many terrorists, but I do believe that it's beating us into submission, which is exactly what the government wants.
Martial law, microchips, anyone? I'll go first in line... I want it implanted in the back of my hand, so all I have to do, when I walk into the grocery store, hospital, doctor's or tax office, is swipe my hand and all my info is right there - from date of birth, marriage, children, medical issues, insurance (medical/home/auto), medications, auto year/make/model, banking, shopping - so matter where I go, all I need is the hand with microchip and God forbid that anything happen to that hand, but I hope they make a backup of my info be implanted into the other hand.......... Never have to carry my hand bag again.... What a relief for my back and shoulders..
Yes, I'm being facetious, but think of the possibilities.
We went through this on another thread, and yeah, it might sound far fetched, but so was TV 60 yrs ago, and home computers, as recently as 20 yrs ago.
"If we move forward these are just a few of the risks we as a nation will endure imo." Taking risks and giving up rights are not the same thing. Every time the government takes away a possible risk, so so they take away one or more rights. "The government will protect us".... don't think that for a minute.
"All we need to do is give up a little of this and a little of that to feel safe until we are left with no protection." We no longer have protection, because over the years, we've given up "a little of this and a little of that".
I don't believe that all this technology has stopped so many terrorists, but I do believe that it's beating us into submission, which is exactly what the government wants.
Martial law, microchips, anyone? I'll go first in line... I want it implanted in the back of my hand, so all I have to do, when I walk into the grocery store, hospital, doctor's or tax office, is swipe my hand and all my info is right there - from date of birth, marriage, children, medical issues, insurance (medical/home/auto), medications, auto year/make/model, banking, shopping - so matter where I go, all I need is the hand with microchip and God forbid that anything happen to that hand, but I hope they make a backup of my info be implanted into the other hand.......... Never have to carry my hand bag again.... What a relief for my back and shoulders..
Yes, I'm being facetious, but think of the possibilities.
We went through this on another thread, and yeah, it might sound far fetched, but so was TV 60 yrs ago, and home computers, as recently as 20 yrs ago.
I agree that we need to move forward and I agree that this invasion of privacy satrted a long time ago. However The means of collecting information on the "bad guys" sweeps all of us into the machine and I for one do not appreciate being tagged and observed.
America is a new country but if you take a look at Europe (inc. Eastern Europe and Russia) and see how when certain leaders came to power they were able to track down their "undesirables" and send them to the camps or the Gulag or wipe them out. Few could escape. With the technology used now, *nobody* escapes.
How audacious is it to think our fine Democratic country could be compared with the Soviet regime or the fascist regimes of Europe 60 years ago? Not at all, we are not so different from anyone else. All we need to do is give up a little of this and a little of that to feel safe until we are left with no protection.
I am thinking that we cannot stop the wheels in motion, I am thinking we need to safeguard our constitutional rights, which is why I support the 2nd Amendment and the 1st Amendment during times my heart cries differently.
A few decades ago the American Nazi party wanted to march through a part of Chicago that was predominately Jewish and where many holocaust survivors lived. It was abominable and I had fantasies of becoming a sniper in the city that day. Nevertheless, we have constitutional rights and if we suppress them for those monsters we suppress them for ourselves. Meaning everyone complaining on this board could be arrested as anti gov't if we compromise these rights.
Just some examples...I think we must move forward *very* carefully and make sure safeguards are in place to protect those of us who are not criminal or terrorist.
How? Dunno, need to think on it.:)
America is a new country but if you take a look at Europe (inc. Eastern Europe and Russia) and see how when certain leaders came to power they were able to track down their "undesirables" and send them to the camps or the Gulag or wipe them out. Few could escape. With the technology used now, *nobody* escapes.
How audacious is it to think our fine Democratic country could be compared with the Soviet regime or the fascist regimes of Europe 60 years ago? Not at all, we are not so different from anyone else. All we need to do is give up a little of this and a little of that to feel safe until we are left with no protection.
I am thinking that we cannot stop the wheels in motion, I am thinking we need to safeguard our constitutional rights, which is why I support the 2nd Amendment and the 1st Amendment during times my heart cries differently.
A few decades ago the American Nazi party wanted to march through a part of Chicago that was predominately Jewish and where many holocaust survivors lived. It was abominable and I had fantasies of becoming a sniper in the city that day. Nevertheless, we have constitutional rights and if we suppress them for those monsters we suppress them for ourselves. Meaning everyone complaining on this board could be arrested as anti gov't if we compromise these rights.
Just some examples...I think we must move forward *very* carefully and make sure safeguards are in place to protect those of us who are not criminal or terrorist.
How? Dunno, need to think on it.:)
The world is a changing place. We either stand still or we move forward. If we move forward these are just a few of the risks we as a nation will endure imo. Other nations are doing the same things. Or we can stand still and the other nations will continue to proceed forward and then where does that leave us and our security? I see it as a double edged sword, but am also a believer in the word that says alot of what we fear is going to happen with our without our consent anyway. I do think we should be more concerned with the laws and structure in place to ensure no one or two or even three people can make those decisions without approval going forward.
Long before anyone got concerned about the patriot act, the postal service was tracking our mail, marketers leaving cookies on our computers, hacking into our government structures was already being done, and a myriad of other things. The only thing that is different is that we now know the exact nature and volume. Just my opinion.
Even if we gave up all the bells and whistles at this point and refused to use a computer, smart phone etc, there are still so many ways of tracking that it really would not matter. I think it all started with the social security number being issued and on file, and the irs managing our taxes. There has always been a record of everything we do.
Long before anyone got concerned about the patriot act, the postal service was tracking our mail, marketers leaving cookies on our computers, hacking into our government structures was already being done, and a myriad of other things. The only thing that is different is that we now know the exact nature and volume. Just my opinion.
Even if we gave up all the bells and whistles at this point and refused to use a computer, smart phone etc, there are still so many ways of tracking that it really would not matter. I think it all started with the social security number being issued and on file, and the irs managing our taxes. There has always been a record of everything we do.
Sadly, I think our current government is more interested in protecting corporate rights than individual rights.
I think some of this snooping into our private lives is for nothing more complicated than targeting marketing at us.
Personally, I'm a big proponent of our right to privacy. It's no body's business what I do, but apparently business doesn't agree~ lol.
As far as the catching the bad guys go, come on ! How many bad guys have they caught using this technology ? Who is combing all these calls, and internet usage? If you want to do something not kosher, you simply can use code words or other such subterfuge.
"How far can we allow the erosion of our rights to go before we realize too late, that we have no recourse to object?"
I think we've already gone too far. Look at what's happened with anyone called a whistle-blower.
I think some of this snooping into our private lives is for nothing more complicated than targeting marketing at us.
Personally, I'm a big proponent of our right to privacy. It's no body's business what I do, but apparently business doesn't agree~ lol.
As far as the catching the bad guys go, come on ! How many bad guys have they caught using this technology ? Who is combing all these calls, and internet usage? If you want to do something not kosher, you simply can use code words or other such subterfuge.
"How far can we allow the erosion of our rights to go before we realize too late, that we have no recourse to object?"
I think we've already gone too far. Look at what's happened with anyone called a whistle-blower.
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