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This Week in God
First up from the God Machine this week is something called "Pulpit Freedom Sunday," which is scheduled for tomorrow, and which intends to test religio-political boundaries in interesting ways.
To briefly summarize federal tax law, tax-exempt houses of worship and religious ministration are prohibited from intervening in political campaigns, either in support of or opposition to a candidate or a party. Those who violate the law run the risk of IRS penalties, up to and including the loss of their tax-exempt status.
With this in mind, groups like American United for Separation of Church and State, hoping to prevent the religious right from creating a church-based political machine, reminds religious leaders every four years of the law, urging them to reject the advances of parties and candidates.
Some on the right are trying a very different strategy -- conservative activists acknowledge the law, but are urging conservative Christian pastors to break the law, deliberately.
On Sunday, October 7, pastors around the country will try to bait the federal government into investigating them by preaching explicitly partisan sermons. As part of a conservative movement organizers call "Pulpit Freedom Sunday," some religious leaders will endorse Mitt Romney from the pulpit. Others may refrain from an endorsement but vigorously criticize President Obama. And some will tell their congregations that a good Christian can only vote for a candidate who opposes gay marriage and abortion. Then they'll send tapes of their sermons to the Internal Revenue Service in the hopes of being audited.
Mike Huckabee and Glenn Beck have both used their media platforms recently to help promote the event.
There are a few angles to this. First, the organizers of "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" generally believe the IRS is bluffing and won't actually crack down on churches that intervene in elections. If the law isn't going to be enforced, the argument goes, then there's no reason conservative pastors shouldn't use their pulpits to help elect a Republican presidential candidate.
Second, if the IRS isn't bluffing and it cracks down on churches that knowingly flout the law, then there will be litigation the right thinks it can win. By forcing test cases, conservatives believe they can have the existing law overturned altogether.
And third, if the IRS takes any action at all, conservative churches will play the martyr card -- the big bad Obama administration is waging a "war on religion" by going after innocent churches.
For the record, the law is only limited to partisan campaigns -- religious leaders who want to use their pulpits to preach for or against marriage rights, abortion, the death penalty, or any other issues are free to do so. The trouble kicks in when pastors start telling their congregations who to vote for, and scrapping the law really isn't a good idea.
Also from the God Machine this week:
* The "Red Mass" was last week, an annual tradition in which several sitting Supreme Court justices -- in this instance, six of the nine -- attend a Roman Catholic mass at the Cathedral of St. Matthew the Apostle in Washington the Sunday before the Supreme Court begins its new term. The practice began in 1953.
* The Washington Post's Sally Quinn suggested in print this week that Americans' identity is intertwined with religiosity. Raising atheists' eyebrows, Quinn argued, "Part of claiming your citizenship is claiming a belief in God, even if you are not Christian."
* Radical TV preacher Pat Robertson and Family Research Council president Tony Perkins helped headline "The America for Jesus 2012" prayer rally at Independence Mall in Philadelphia last weekend.
* And speaking of Robertson, the televangelist told supporters this week that God may "take down the wall of protection around this nation" unless America starts agreeing with him on gay rights, reproductive freedom, and secular government.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/10/06/14261077-this-week-in-god?lite
To briefly summarize federal tax law, tax-exempt houses of worship and religious ministration are prohibited from intervening in political campaigns, either in support of or opposition to a candidate or a party. Those who violate the law run the risk of IRS penalties, up to and including the loss of their tax-exempt status.
With this in mind, groups like American United for Separation of Church and State, hoping to prevent the religious right from creating a church-based political machine, reminds religious leaders every four years of the law, urging them to reject the advances of parties and candidates.
Some on the right are trying a very different strategy -- conservative activists acknowledge the law, but are urging conservative Christian pastors to break the law, deliberately.
On Sunday, October 7, pastors around the country will try to bait the federal government into investigating them by preaching explicitly partisan sermons. As part of a conservative movement organizers call "Pulpit Freedom Sunday," some religious leaders will endorse Mitt Romney from the pulpit. Others may refrain from an endorsement but vigorously criticize President Obama. And some will tell their congregations that a good Christian can only vote for a candidate who opposes gay marriage and abortion. Then they'll send tapes of their sermons to the Internal Revenue Service in the hopes of being audited.
Mike Huckabee and Glenn Beck have both used their media platforms recently to help promote the event.
There are a few angles to this. First, the organizers of "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" generally believe the IRS is bluffing and won't actually crack down on churches that intervene in elections. If the law isn't going to be enforced, the argument goes, then there's no reason conservative pastors shouldn't use their pulpits to help elect a Republican presidential candidate.
Second, if the IRS isn't bluffing and it cracks down on churches that knowingly flout the law, then there will be litigation the right thinks it can win. By forcing test cases, conservatives believe they can have the existing law overturned altogether.
And third, if the IRS takes any action at all, conservative churches will play the martyr card -- the big bad Obama administration is waging a "war on religion" by going after innocent churches.
For the record, the law is only limited to partisan campaigns -- religious leaders who want to use their pulpits to preach for or against marriage rights, abortion, the death penalty, or any other issues are free to do so. The trouble kicks in when pastors start telling their congregations who to vote for, and scrapping the law really isn't a good idea.
Also from the God Machine this week:
* The "Red Mass" was last week, an annual tradition in which several sitting Supreme Court justices -- in this instance, six of the nine -- attend a Roman Catholic mass at the Cathedral of St. Matthew the Apostle in Washington the Sunday before the Supreme Court begins its new term. The practice began in 1953.
* The Washington Post's Sally Quinn suggested in print this week that Americans' identity is intertwined with religiosity. Raising atheists' eyebrows, Quinn argued, "Part of claiming your citizenship is claiming a belief in God, even if you are not Christian."
* Radical TV preacher Pat Robertson and Family Research Council president Tony Perkins helped headline "The America for Jesus 2012" prayer rally at Independence Mall in Philadelphia last weekend.
* And speaking of Robertson, the televangelist told supporters this week that God may "take down the wall of protection around this nation" unless America starts agreeing with him on gay rights, reproductive freedom, and secular government.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/10/06/14261077-this-week-in-god?lite
LOL.... thanks teko. Maybe not perfect, but my wife and kids like me most of the time these days.... that'll work for me.
Pert damn near brice! You bad boy!
Uhm, I'm perfect....
Well I gotta say R, tht one did make my mind start thinking about it. I actually never thought about it that way! I dont go to church on Sunday, I prefer a one on one at home meself. LOL
You've known me long enough to spot my B.S.a mile away. You know how get when I get bored LOL. Yes Christians should vote.
Well, some may not be christian and others may be but one thing we all share is that we are human and in all our human ness, none of us is perfect. Maybe one day but not in this world. NUFF RELIGION!!!! LOL
Im gonna vote cause like specialmom, I can and its my right to do so. And it makes me feel good too. ;l
Im gonna vote cause like specialmom, I can and its my right to do so. And it makes me feel good too. ;l
See what you started??
It doesn't apply. I'm not a "Christian", per say.
How does your comment apply to the 'no judging' thing?? LOL
It doesn't happen here so much as it does in politics and elsewhere, but I enjoy "Christians" who denounce people for any number of reasons.
I was under the impression that it was up to God to do the judging....
People are funny. Especially Christians who hide behind their religion and do whatever they see fit, then repent on Sundays..... Arm Chair Christians are awesome.
I was under the impression that it was up to God to do the judging....
People are funny. Especially Christians who hide behind their religion and do whatever they see fit, then repent on Sundays..... Arm Chair Christians are awesome.
Ha. I think it is funny that we are looking for scripture from the bible regarding the current US of A voting process. Was there even democracy in biblical times?
I don't know. I go to church on Sunday and I vote on Tuesday. Seperate.
:>)
I don't know. I go to church on Sunday and I vote on Tuesday. Seperate.
:>)
I find this conversation very interesting and yet it proves my point that there should be separation of church and state. I find no scripture under the new testament (our new covenent ) that speaks of the voting process at all. I believe there are two sets of laws, mans law and gods law, with gods law being supreme. However, under the supreme law we are told to abide by mans law. Our instructions as christians are to be apart from the world and not partake of what goes on it it and be mirrors of what is good. I believe this instruction trumps pretty much the whole process of mans government.
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Now as you can see not all people believe in Jesus, which is a huge difference in how I believe. I believe in God the father, the son and the holy ghost. Some christians only believe that Jesus was a mere man and nothing more, others believe he came in spirit only and was not crucified,
Then you get into what one person believes butted up against what another person believes such as this.
http://pastors4huckabeeblog.com/the-biblical-case-against-voting-for-a-mormon-for-president-why-christians-who-support-romney-actualy-violate-scripture/
this is where our man huckabee, who has his religious beliefs right out there in the middle of politcs telling us how the bible says mormans are antichrist and why we should not have anything to do with this cult.
So all in all, these are the reasons why I believe mans law and gods law need to be kept separate because otherwise your gonna have nothing but confusion, hatred, vengence leading to total rebellion. Because we live in a multi cultural multi faith country. It is not fair to quote one verse of one religion or expect all the people to follow what we believe as opposed to what they believe.
I think God does create the governments and the reason is to ultimately have his plan that christians believe play out as written. We know that according to the bible certain things are gonna happen and frankly, they are destined to happen whether we like it or not. So we can vote with a pure heart I dont think anything is wrong with it, but ultimately does it really do any good? Probably not from my personal biblical interpretation.
My mama always did tell me not to mix religion and politics. ugg now I know why, for everything you think you know, it opens the door to 10 more questions.
So, Im quitting right here.
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Now as you can see not all people believe in Jesus, which is a huge difference in how I believe. I believe in God the father, the son and the holy ghost. Some christians only believe that Jesus was a mere man and nothing more, others believe he came in spirit only and was not crucified,
Then you get into what one person believes butted up against what another person believes such as this.
http://pastors4huckabeeblog.com/the-biblical-case-against-voting-for-a-mormon-for-president-why-christians-who-support-romney-actualy-violate-scripture/
this is where our man huckabee, who has his religious beliefs right out there in the middle of politcs telling us how the bible says mormans are antichrist and why we should not have anything to do with this cult.
So all in all, these are the reasons why I believe mans law and gods law need to be kept separate because otherwise your gonna have nothing but confusion, hatred, vengence leading to total rebellion. Because we live in a multi cultural multi faith country. It is not fair to quote one verse of one religion or expect all the people to follow what we believe as opposed to what they believe.
I think God does create the governments and the reason is to ultimately have his plan that christians believe play out as written. We know that according to the bible certain things are gonna happen and frankly, they are destined to happen whether we like it or not. So we can vote with a pure heart I dont think anything is wrong with it, but ultimately does it really do any good? Probably not from my personal biblical interpretation.
My mama always did tell me not to mix religion and politics. ugg now I know why, for everything you think you know, it opens the door to 10 more questions.
So, Im quitting right here.
LOL
We Heathens don't worship Satan, it's all about Oak trees, silly.
OMG!!! I am ready to give you a whallop, you bad boy!
Wow! A Jew voting for a Muslim!
I like Jesus honey, but he's not my God.
We Jews go for the Father :)
We Jews go for the Father :)
OH-of course they are how do you think Obama got elected in the first place? It wasn’t the work of God, it was the Work of Satan.
Specialmom/rivll, I would love to continue to share my Deep Theology with you but, I’m also trying to watch Football and Pack my clothes to head back to New Orleans tomorrow. I would hate to lead one of you astray because of not having my undivided attention.
P.S. rivll, Jesus still loves you even though you are voting for Obama (He’ll also forgive you if you ask him)
Specialmom/rivll, I would love to continue to share my Deep Theology with you but, I’m also trying to watch Football and Pack my clothes to head back to New Orleans tomorrow. I would hate to lead one of you astray because of not having my undivided attention.
P.S. rivll, Jesus still loves you even though you are voting for Obama (He’ll also forgive you if you ask him)
Wow, I'm so excited. That means that the majority of Americans are heathen.
Thanks, I didn't know !
Thanks, I didn't know !
Hahaha-you sound like one of my sons!
Lol! Much easier to hear it from you than from him-
Lol! Much easier to hear it from you than from him-
Interesting point but you are voting for Obama which makes you a Heathen and your point moot. Please Repent and vote for Romney.
"But I would interpret that bible verse to mean that you shouldn't worship your leaders (as in the time the bible was written) and should revere God above all else knowing God is above the leaders." I believe you are correct, special mom.
Glass- It reminds me of the question "Why bother, if God controls all, anyway?" It is an interesting philosophical question and has to do with the concept of free will. I have no pat answers, for sure.
The Jewish religion basically states that we are commanded to obey the law of the land. Wherever the laws passed by a government do not contradict God's command, they are to be considered as binding as religious laws.
Glass- It reminds me of the question "Why bother, if God controls all, anyway?" It is an interesting philosophical question and has to do with the concept of free will. I have no pat answers, for sure.
The Jewish religion basically states that we are commanded to obey the law of the land. Wherever the laws passed by a government do not contradict God's command, they are to be considered as binding as religious laws.
http://bible.org/article/paul-and-civil-obedience-romans-131-7
There is speculation as to whether that particular verse was written by Paul or not. Romans 13-1 is controversial. (bible conspiracy?) Funny you picked one of a few things that has been questioned over the eons.
You can read about it at bible.org.
Hey, I go to church. The meaning of all verses of the bible has not yet been revealed to me. I do what I think is morally right which includes voting.
There is speculation as to whether that particular verse was written by Paul or not. Romans 13-1 is controversial. (bible conspiracy?) Funny you picked one of a few things that has been questioned over the eons.
You can read about it at bible.org.
Hey, I go to church. The meaning of all verses of the bible has not yet been revealed to me. I do what I think is morally right which includes voting.
Actually, I’m curious. That Scripture has never made since to me. If one believes The Bible is the Word of God and the Bible clearly states, “All Authorities are placed by God” what would be the purpose of voting?
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to discourage Christians from voting. Romney needs all the help he can get. Everyone knows only Heathens vote for Obama.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to discourage Christians from voting. Romney needs all the help he can get. Everyone knows only Heathens vote for Obama.
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