Aa
Work paid in beer
Amsterdam has a deal for alcoholics: Work paid in beer
After more than a decade out of work because of a back injury and chronic alcoholism, Fred Schiphorst finally landed a job last year and is determined to keep it. He gets up at 5:30 a.m., walks his dog and then puts on a red tie, ready to clean litter from the streets of eastern Amsterdam.
"You have to look sharp," said Mr. Schiphorst, 60, a former construction worker.
His workday begins unfailingly at 9 a.m. — with two cans of beer, a down payment on a salary paid mostly in alcohol. He gets two more cans at lunch and then another can or, if all goes smoothly, two to round off a productive day.
"I'm not proud of being an alcoholic, but I am proud to have a job again," said Mr. Schiphorst, the grateful beneficiary of an unusual government-funded program to lure alcoholics off the streets by paying them in beer to pick up trash.
In addition to beer — the brand varies depending on which brewery offers the best price — each member of the cleaning team gets half a packet of rolling tobacco, free lunch and 10 euros a day, or about $13.55.
The program, started last year by the Rainbow Foundation, a private but mostly government-funded organization that helps the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics get back on their feet, is so popular that there is a long waiting list of chronic alcoholics eager to join the beer-fueled cleaning teams.
One of the project's most enthusiastic supporters is Fatima Elatik, district mayor of eastern Amsterdam. As a practicing Muslim who wears a head scarf, Ms. Elatik personally disapproves of alcohol but says she believes that alcoholics "cannot be just ostracized" and told to shape up. It is better, she said, to give them something to do and restrict their drinking to a limited amount of beer with no hard alcohol.
Conservative members of the Amsterdam City Council have derided what they call the "beer project" as a waste of government money and a misguided extension of a culture of tolerance that has already made the city a mecca for marijuana users and spawned Europe's best-known red-light district.
Hans Wijnands, the director of the Rainbow Foundation, dismissed such complaints as political grandstanding at a time when, even in the Netherlands, "it is becoming more fashionable to support repressive measures." Alarmed by what it said was a rise in crime caused by liberal drug laws, the Dutch government announced a plan in 2010 to bar foreigners from buying cannabis in so-called coffee shops, which sell marijuana and hashish legally. Amsterdam's mayor ordered city police to ignore the ban, which was supposed to go into effect nationwide this year.
The idea of providing alcoholics with beer in return for work, he said, was first tried in Canada. It took off in the Netherlands in part because the country has traditionally shunned "zero tolerance" in response to addiction. Amsterdam now has three districts running beer-for-work street cleaning programs, and a fourth discussing whether to follow suit. Other Dutch cities are looking into the idea, too.
The basic idea is to extend to alcoholics an approach first developed to help heroin addicts, who have for years been provided with free methadone, a less dangerous substitute, in a controlled environment that provides access to health workers and counselors.
"If you just say, 'Stop drinking and we will help you,' it doesn't work," said Mr. Wijnands, whose foundation gets 80 percent of its financing from the state and runs four drug consumption rooms with free needles for hardened addicts. "But if you say, 'I will give you work for a few cans of beer during the day,' they like it."
To shield the government from criticism that it is subsidizing drinking, the Rainbow Foundation insists that it pays for the beer given to Mr. Schiphorst and his fellow alcoholics out of its own funds. "For the government, it is hard to say, 'We buy beer for a particular group of people,' because other people will say, 'I would like some beer, too,' " Mr. Wijnands said.
"It would be beautiful if they all stopped drinking, but that is not our main goal," he added. "You have to give people an alternative, to show them a path other than just sitting in the park and drinking themselves to death."
The cleaning teams are forbidden from drinking while out on the street, but Mr. Schiphorst and his work mates say they get enough beer before they set out in the morning and during their lunch break to keep them going. "This is my medicine; I need it to survive," said Mr. Schiphorst, his hands shaking as he gulped his first beer of the day at a morning meeting with Rainbow Foundation supervisors.
Ramon Smits, a member of Mr. Schiphorst's team, said he used to knock back a bottle and more of whiskey or rum each day but now sticks to beer, consuming five cans a day at work and then another five or so in his free time. An immigrant from the former Dutch colony of Suriname, Mr. Smits said the project had not only helped him cut down his daily alcohol intake but also raised his self-esteem. "It keeps me away from trouble, and I'm doing something useful," he said. "I help myself, and I help my community."
Locals in the heavily immigrant eastern district who used to curse alcoholics for turning the area's main park, Oosterpark, into an unruly outdoor bar now greet them with smiles as they do their cleaning rounds, dressed in orange jackets and carrying bright yellow garbage bags.
"This is not a beer project — it is a cleaning project," said the district mayor, Ms. Elatik, adding that it had proved far more successful in keeping drunks out of Oosterpark than previous government initiatives. On a recent afternoon, there were just three people drinking in the park, instead of the dozens who used to gather there, she said.
Until the beer-for-work program started, the authorities had tried to purge the park of drunks by banning alcohol there and stepping up patrols by security guards. But this only forced alcoholics to move to other parks in the area and led to fights with the guards. Mr. Schiphorst himself was detained after one such brawl.
"It is easy to say, 'Get rid of them and punish them,' " Ms. Elatik said. "But that does not solve the problem.
"Maybe I'm a softy, but I am happy to be soft if it helps people. They are human beings with problems, not just a problem to be swept away."
Mr. Schiphorst said he started drinking heavily in the 1970s after he found his wife, who was pregnant with twins, dead in their home from a drug overdose. He has since spent time in a clinic and tried other ways to quit but has never managed to entirely break his addiction.
"Every day is a struggle," he said during a lunch break with his work mates. "You may see these guys hanging around here, chatting, making jokes. But I can assure you, every man you see here carries a little backpack with their own misery in it."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101248865
After more than a decade out of work because of a back injury and chronic alcoholism, Fred Schiphorst finally landed a job last year and is determined to keep it. He gets up at 5:30 a.m., walks his dog and then puts on a red tie, ready to clean litter from the streets of eastern Amsterdam.
"You have to look sharp," said Mr. Schiphorst, 60, a former construction worker.
His workday begins unfailingly at 9 a.m. — with two cans of beer, a down payment on a salary paid mostly in alcohol. He gets two more cans at lunch and then another can or, if all goes smoothly, two to round off a productive day.
"I'm not proud of being an alcoholic, but I am proud to have a job again," said Mr. Schiphorst, the grateful beneficiary of an unusual government-funded program to lure alcoholics off the streets by paying them in beer to pick up trash.
In addition to beer — the brand varies depending on which brewery offers the best price — each member of the cleaning team gets half a packet of rolling tobacco, free lunch and 10 euros a day, or about $13.55.
The program, started last year by the Rainbow Foundation, a private but mostly government-funded organization that helps the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics get back on their feet, is so popular that there is a long waiting list of chronic alcoholics eager to join the beer-fueled cleaning teams.
One of the project's most enthusiastic supporters is Fatima Elatik, district mayor of eastern Amsterdam. As a practicing Muslim who wears a head scarf, Ms. Elatik personally disapproves of alcohol but says she believes that alcoholics "cannot be just ostracized" and told to shape up. It is better, she said, to give them something to do and restrict their drinking to a limited amount of beer with no hard alcohol.
Conservative members of the Amsterdam City Council have derided what they call the "beer project" as a waste of government money and a misguided extension of a culture of tolerance that has already made the city a mecca for marijuana users and spawned Europe's best-known red-light district.
Hans Wijnands, the director of the Rainbow Foundation, dismissed such complaints as political grandstanding at a time when, even in the Netherlands, "it is becoming more fashionable to support repressive measures." Alarmed by what it said was a rise in crime caused by liberal drug laws, the Dutch government announced a plan in 2010 to bar foreigners from buying cannabis in so-called coffee shops, which sell marijuana and hashish legally. Amsterdam's mayor ordered city police to ignore the ban, which was supposed to go into effect nationwide this year.
The idea of providing alcoholics with beer in return for work, he said, was first tried in Canada. It took off in the Netherlands in part because the country has traditionally shunned "zero tolerance" in response to addiction. Amsterdam now has three districts running beer-for-work street cleaning programs, and a fourth discussing whether to follow suit. Other Dutch cities are looking into the idea, too.
The basic idea is to extend to alcoholics an approach first developed to help heroin addicts, who have for years been provided with free methadone, a less dangerous substitute, in a controlled environment that provides access to health workers and counselors.
"If you just say, 'Stop drinking and we will help you,' it doesn't work," said Mr. Wijnands, whose foundation gets 80 percent of its financing from the state and runs four drug consumption rooms with free needles for hardened addicts. "But if you say, 'I will give you work for a few cans of beer during the day,' they like it."
To shield the government from criticism that it is subsidizing drinking, the Rainbow Foundation insists that it pays for the beer given to Mr. Schiphorst and his fellow alcoholics out of its own funds. "For the government, it is hard to say, 'We buy beer for a particular group of people,' because other people will say, 'I would like some beer, too,' " Mr. Wijnands said.
"It would be beautiful if they all stopped drinking, but that is not our main goal," he added. "You have to give people an alternative, to show them a path other than just sitting in the park and drinking themselves to death."
The cleaning teams are forbidden from drinking while out on the street, but Mr. Schiphorst and his work mates say they get enough beer before they set out in the morning and during their lunch break to keep them going. "This is my medicine; I need it to survive," said Mr. Schiphorst, his hands shaking as he gulped his first beer of the day at a morning meeting with Rainbow Foundation supervisors.
Ramon Smits, a member of Mr. Schiphorst's team, said he used to knock back a bottle and more of whiskey or rum each day but now sticks to beer, consuming five cans a day at work and then another five or so in his free time. An immigrant from the former Dutch colony of Suriname, Mr. Smits said the project had not only helped him cut down his daily alcohol intake but also raised his self-esteem. "It keeps me away from trouble, and I'm doing something useful," he said. "I help myself, and I help my community."
Locals in the heavily immigrant eastern district who used to curse alcoholics for turning the area's main park, Oosterpark, into an unruly outdoor bar now greet them with smiles as they do their cleaning rounds, dressed in orange jackets and carrying bright yellow garbage bags.
"This is not a beer project — it is a cleaning project," said the district mayor, Ms. Elatik, adding that it had proved far more successful in keeping drunks out of Oosterpark than previous government initiatives. On a recent afternoon, there were just three people drinking in the park, instead of the dozens who used to gather there, she said.
Until the beer-for-work program started, the authorities had tried to purge the park of drunks by banning alcohol there and stepping up patrols by security guards. But this only forced alcoholics to move to other parks in the area and led to fights with the guards. Mr. Schiphorst himself was detained after one such brawl.
"It is easy to say, 'Get rid of them and punish them,' " Ms. Elatik said. "But that does not solve the problem.
"Maybe I'm a softy, but I am happy to be soft if it helps people. They are human beings with problems, not just a problem to be swept away."
Mr. Schiphorst said he started drinking heavily in the 1970s after he found his wife, who was pregnant with twins, dead in their home from a drug overdose. He has since spent time in a clinic and tried other ways to quit but has never managed to entirely break his addiction.
"Every day is a struggle," he said during a lunch break with his work mates. "You may see these guys hanging around here, chatting, making jokes. But I can assure you, every man you see here carries a little backpack with their own misery in it."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101248865
I understand you. As well, I think a diagnosis of any of the aforementioned diseases...(diabetes, heart disease, alcoholism) can often lead someone straight to depression. I especially feel that way if the afflicted has been previously diagnosed with a depression disorder.
Getting that new diagnosis will take the wind out of a lot of peoples sails. It's like a death warrant for people who are suffering through some kind of depression disorder. Its one more crumby thing for them to try to work around.
Getting that new diagnosis will take the wind out of a lot of peoples sails. It's like a death warrant for people who are suffering through some kind of depression disorder. Its one more crumby thing for them to try to work around.
Fully 100% agree that at some point an addict did have a choice to get treatment. Actually, fully agree that at any point an addict can choose help. That's why I say that I don't condone the behavior. I am awful sometimes at explaining what I mean, and why I used the analogy of diabetes, so I'll try again.
Science has pretty much proven that some people are hard wired through DNA to be more prone to addiction. It is a medical condition. However, that does not excuse an addict from not choosing to get help. So an addict does not actually choose to be an addict, they make the choice of being and staying active in their addition. I don't hold people responsible for having the medical condition of addiction (the genetic predisposition), however I do hold them responsible for not trying to do something about it. See the difference?
My analogy with diabetes is the same as heart disease or any other medical condition. I do not necessarily hold anyone responsible for having it, but I would sure as heck resent the heck out a loved one if they chose to do nothing about it ie: medical help. That's what I meant. Hopefully that makes what I meant a bit clearer? Or maybe clear as mud..lol.
Science has pretty much proven that some people are hard wired through DNA to be more prone to addiction. It is a medical condition. However, that does not excuse an addict from not choosing to get help. So an addict does not actually choose to be an addict, they make the choice of being and staying active in their addition. I don't hold people responsible for having the medical condition of addiction (the genetic predisposition), however I do hold them responsible for not trying to do something about it. See the difference?
My analogy with diabetes is the same as heart disease or any other medical condition. I do not necessarily hold anyone responsible for having it, but I would sure as heck resent the heck out a loved one if they chose to do nothing about it ie: medical help. That's what I meant. Hopefully that makes what I meant a bit clearer? Or maybe clear as mud..lol.
" On the other hand, these people could offer all of the addiction therapy in the world instead of the beer and it is likely to have more or less the same affect (sic). You know as well as I do that an addict has to want the help in order to receive the help"
Brice seems to say things so much better than I do, sometimes... I wouldn't do it myself, either though I've provided a keg for people that helped us out with farm projects, from time to time... the keg didn't get tapped until the work was done and we didn't have any alcoholics present.
At least, by giving these people "so much" beer, the amount of alcohol they get is limited and I'm thinking that some of them might actually gain some self respect by doing the menial work (2 beers won't make an alcoholic drunk) that they'd want to opt for something more "complex".
I'm all for thinking outside the box.
Brice seems to say things so much better than I do, sometimes... I wouldn't do it myself, either though I've provided a keg for people that helped us out with farm projects, from time to time... the keg didn't get tapped until the work was done and we didn't have any alcoholics present.
At least, by giving these people "so much" beer, the amount of alcohol they get is limited and I'm thinking that some of them might actually gain some self respect by doing the menial work (2 beers won't make an alcoholic drunk) that they'd want to opt for something more "complex".
I'm all for thinking outside the box.
I re-read this article 2 times. What I am taking away from it is, they are paying alcoholics beer to do these menial tasks. I see how that can be wrong. In fact, I'd have no part in it personally. On the other hand, these people could offer all of the addiction therapy in the world instead of the beer and it is likely to have more or less the same affect. You know as well as I do that an addict has to want the help in order to receive the help.
Using your analogy regarding diabetes. A diabetic isn't going to do a damned thing for their health unless they want to. I know a lady who just had a lower leg amputated as a direct result of her diabetes. She went years and years not following a diet and checking her blood glucose levels. She got a small infection and couldn't shake it and as I mentioned, the result was amputation. (This just happened in the last month.) Now, having lost a limb due to untreated diabetes, she still eats cake and everything she shouldn't..... She is not going to change until she wants to.
Using your analogy regarding diabetes. A diabetic isn't going to do a damned thing for their health unless they want to. I know a lady who just had a lower leg amputated as a direct result of her diabetes. She went years and years not following a diet and checking her blood glucose levels. She got a small infection and couldn't shake it and as I mentioned, the result was amputation. (This just happened in the last month.) Now, having lost a limb due to untreated diabetes, she still eats cake and everything she shouldn't..... She is not going to change until she wants to.
The only thing I really disagree with you on Adgal is that addiction is the same kind of illness as something like diabetes. It's not in my opinion. There is a period of time in which people DO have a choice. I resent very much those I've loved with addictions for going down that path when there was time to make a choice. Angry even. No free pass from me that it's an illness and they had no control. I know for a fact that at earlier stages, they absolutely did.
Type one diabetes is quite different. you have no choice if your body doesn't function properly.
This does not mean I don't have compassion for those in the throes of addiction. I do. And it does get to the point that someone is physically addicted and 'just stopping' is very difficult. But it's a progressive disease and I will never believe that some didn't 'do it to themselves.'
This doesn't come from a place of 'observing' someone with an addiction but from a place of loving someone who had/has one.
Type one diabetes is quite different. you have no choice if your body doesn't function properly.
This does not mean I don't have compassion for those in the throes of addiction. I do. And it does get to the point that someone is physically addicted and 'just stopping' is very difficult. But it's a progressive disease and I will never believe that some didn't 'do it to themselves.'
This doesn't come from a place of 'observing' someone with an addiction but from a place of loving someone who had/has one.
Having a hard time explaining myself, so going to take another shot at it.
Let's say someone had diabetes. If left untreated, it can be quite serious, with issues like fainting, blindness, so on and so on. So lets say you had an employee with diagnosed diabetes that was refusing to get any sort of medical treatment. In your line of work that could be darned dangerous right? Same thing applies here. Addicts should be offered treatment through the medical system. However, you cannot have an active addict on the job, that's dangerous. So if the addict refuses treatment, then yes, they need to be let go. The thing about addiction is that it IS treatable, and manageable. The addict that stops using is still an addict, just not active. Just like the diabetic on medication is still a diabetic, it's just being controlled. For me and most in the medical system now, this is the same thing. It does not excuse the addict who refuses treatment though. See what I mean?
And I still think paying an addict in beer is disgusting. I just do.
Let's say someone had diabetes. If left untreated, it can be quite serious, with issues like fainting, blindness, so on and so on. So lets say you had an employee with diagnosed diabetes that was refusing to get any sort of medical treatment. In your line of work that could be darned dangerous right? Same thing applies here. Addicts should be offered treatment through the medical system. However, you cannot have an active addict on the job, that's dangerous. So if the addict refuses treatment, then yes, they need to be let go. The thing about addiction is that it IS treatable, and manageable. The addict that stops using is still an addict, just not active. Just like the diabetic on medication is still a diabetic, it's just being controlled. For me and most in the medical system now, this is the same thing. It does not excuse the addict who refuses treatment though. See what I mean?
And I still think paying an addict in beer is disgusting. I just do.
Nothing wrong to agreeing to disagree. I mean really, who wants to have a good conversation with someone who agrees with everything you say..lhow dull! lol. I respect your opinion even if I don't see it quite the same way.
Don't misunderstand my feelings as saying that it is ok. And I too would never condone being under the influence on the job. Not acceptable. I'm not saying I think we should just accept addiction - I'm saying we need to accept addiction as being an illness and treat it accordingly. I just meant that brushing it off as "that person is an addict, therefor worthless, therefor they just need to quit it and get a job" is not the approach I would like society to take. It's an illness, and I want us to treat it the same way we would any other illness and get as many folks as we can back to being productive members of society. In life there aren't really any excuses, but sometimes there are reasons, know what I mean?
Don't misunderstand my feelings as saying that it is ok. And I too would never condone being under the influence on the job. Not acceptable. I'm not saying I think we should just accept addiction - I'm saying we need to accept addiction as being an illness and treat it accordingly. I just meant that brushing it off as "that person is an addict, therefor worthless, therefor they just need to quit it and get a job" is not the approach I would like society to take. It's an illness, and I want us to treat it the same way we would any other illness and get as many folks as we can back to being productive members of society. In life there aren't really any excuses, but sometimes there are reasons, know what I mean?
Me, you. and El (might have been Brice) had this conversation awhile back and pretty much agreed to disagree.
I Fired a guy about a month ago because he was drinking on the job. I hope I don’t get sued due to terminating him because of his illness.
This makes me so sad. It is enabling, pure and simple, and will never help those struggling with this vicious nasty addiction get the help they need. In fact, it will (at least in my opinion) make the problem worse. Finally addiction is seeing as the medical issue it truly is. Finally mainstream medical is treating it as such. If this man is doing an honest day's work, he should get an honest day's pay. If he sadly chooses to squander it on alcohol, then so be it, but at least it is his choice. To take advantage of someones addiction by getting them to do work for a couple of beers a day makes me ill. I would be opposed in a very strong and outspoken way to anything like this here. It is just wrong. Sorry, strong feelings.
I also agree that people need to be involved in work, etc. wherever physically possible. Just not this way.
Now, a question - if this man had an illness such as heart disease preventing him from working, would you feel the same way about a "free ride?" Not rying to pick a fight, you all know I respect your opinions, but I am trying to pooint out that socially acceptable diseases are treated differently by society in general then an illness such as addiction. See my point?
Peace!!
I also agree that people need to be involved in work, etc. wherever physically possible. Just not this way.
Now, a question - if this man had an illness such as heart disease preventing him from working, would you feel the same way about a "free ride?" Not rying to pick a fight, you all know I respect your opinions, but I am trying to pooint out that socially acceptable diseases are treated differently by society in general then an illness such as addiction. See my point?
Peace!!
Whewww - sure glad you two got that off your chests and ended on a friendly note.
We see people everywhere making minimum wage. You know, I started my first job as a car hop, without a wage... I worked for tips; you better believe I had to do well in order to make a living!! I worked my tail off to qualify for jobs that would pay a wage, let alone more than minimum wage.
As for the article, I really don't think this is such a bad plan. While it's true that alcoholism wreaks havoc with a family, friends, job. etc, by providing these people with meaningful work in order to get the alcohol, they are limiting the amount that can be consumed in a day's time. In addition, the alcoholics are gaining a sense of confidence in themselves, because they're doing something useful. AND for someone used to drinking whiskey or other hard liquor and only getting beer, there's potential for some to stop drinking, completely, if they can't get their poison of choice. I'm not an alcoholic, but neither am I beer drinker, so it would sure work for me!!
I wonder if studies have been done/are scheduled to see if any/how many have actually stopped drinking and found jobs.
I, personally, think we should implement some type of community service program for welfare recipients, here in the U.S. If every able bodied person collecting welfare had to check in and provide job search information (like being on unemployment) and do so many hours/month community service, whether it be mowing ditches, picking up trash along the roadway, or dog doo in the park, sweeping sidewalks, washing dishes at the local hospital, volunteering for day care, so others can work, etc; they should have to do "something". People should be screened for specific skills, then volunteer "jobs" found to utilize those skills. Not only would community projects get done for a fraction of the cost, but people would gain a sense of self worth... and who knows what paying jobs might come from something of this nature? Back when I was in my early 20's I secured a full time, paid job because of excelling at a volunteer job.
We all know that volunteering gives a sense of accomplishment.
I, too, care greatly for the less fortunate, but I don't think anyone should get a free ride.
We see people everywhere making minimum wage. You know, I started my first job as a car hop, without a wage... I worked for tips; you better believe I had to do well in order to make a living!! I worked my tail off to qualify for jobs that would pay a wage, let alone more than minimum wage.
As for the article, I really don't think this is such a bad plan. While it's true that alcoholism wreaks havoc with a family, friends, job. etc, by providing these people with meaningful work in order to get the alcohol, they are limiting the amount that can be consumed in a day's time. In addition, the alcoholics are gaining a sense of confidence in themselves, because they're doing something useful. AND for someone used to drinking whiskey or other hard liquor and only getting beer, there's potential for some to stop drinking, completely, if they can't get their poison of choice. I'm not an alcoholic, but neither am I beer drinker, so it would sure work for me!!
I wonder if studies have been done/are scheduled to see if any/how many have actually stopped drinking and found jobs.
I, personally, think we should implement some type of community service program for welfare recipients, here in the U.S. If every able bodied person collecting welfare had to check in and provide job search information (like being on unemployment) and do so many hours/month community service, whether it be mowing ditches, picking up trash along the roadway, or dog doo in the park, sweeping sidewalks, washing dishes at the local hospital, volunteering for day care, so others can work, etc; they should have to do "something". People should be screened for specific skills, then volunteer "jobs" found to utilize those skills. Not only would community projects get done for a fraction of the cost, but people would gain a sense of self worth... and who knows what paying jobs might come from something of this nature? Back when I was in my early 20's I secured a full time, paid job because of excelling at a volunteer job.
We all know that volunteering gives a sense of accomplishment.
I, too, care greatly for the less fortunate, but I don't think anyone should get a free ride.
Thanks for that.
I'll look harder for common ground.
Mike
I'll look harder for common ground.
Mike
Apology accepted! I reacted with my own comments to feeling incredibly misunderstood by someone I like.
We all have to find in our heart what we feel is right and good people struggle with what they'd like to do and what they can do at this moment in time.
Anyway, hope the day gets better. Peace
We all have to find in our heart what we feel is right and good people struggle with what they'd like to do and what they can do at this moment in time.
Anyway, hope the day gets better. Peace
And, you're right SM. I can be self righteous and it's something I do try to work on - apparently not too successfully at times. But really, I don't think in this particular instance the driving force is self righteousness. I really do sincerely care for the less fortunate. I have a small business that I have had for nearly 3 decades. I have part time employees who do pretty menial jobs. I just asked a staff member which he thought would be harder - working at McDonald's or an entry job here. He said McDonald's. I have never paid minimum wage. I have always paid more. Right now the lowest hourly wage is $8.50 per hour and honestly I think that is too low. Only 2 employees are at that level and most part timers are at between $9 and $12.50 per hour. I don't ask myself how cheap I can get someone. I ask myself is this person a good fit and then I try to pay a decent wage. And no, I don't think $9 an hour is a decent wage but it's above minimum wage and I am going to fix that but it's not easy in this economy. I really do wonder sometimes how much is enough. I don't want anyone working for me struggling to put food on the table and fortunately my part timers are either retired, students or have other jobs too. So when I see a company with the profits of McDonald's I suspect they could pay more. Maybe I'm naive.
I am not in the greatest mood today and I apologize for being a bit touchy and sharp with you.
Mike
I am not in the greatest mood today and I apologize for being a bit touchy and sharp with you.
Mike
My comment on the end of my initial post on this thread was in response to the other post today regarding striking at McDonalds. We do strike in this country. And I frankly have never heard of a maintenance program for alcoholism *unlike with narcotics/heroin because of the progressive nature of alcoholism. But maybe there is something I don't know as they are obviously finding validity in this program in another country. I've been touched by alcoholism with a loved one and it is an ugly disease but just can not ever give up hope that someone would see their loved one sober again.
My comment was about your comment that here in the US they'd go on strike for more beer. That wasn't a thought about helping the downtrodden - that was a gratuitous negative remark which is all too common these days.
Those food stampers taking money out of my pocket - always wanting more. Those entitlements grabbing parasites.
Those food stampers taking money out of my pocket - always wanting more. Those entitlements grabbing parasites.
And you consistently show me how self righteous you are.
Just because someone has thoughts on what might help the downtrodden that differ from your own does not mean they don't have compassion and empathy.
Your horse is WAY too high.
Just because someone has thoughts on what might help the downtrodden that differ from your own does not mean they don't have compassion and empathy.
Your horse is WAY too high.
You consistently demonstrate a disdain for the downtrodden.
"But if this were in the US, they would go on strike to get an increase from two cans on a good work day to three."
Really, is that what you think of people less fortunate than you?
"But if this were in the US, they would go on strike to get an increase from two cans on a good work day to three."
Really, is that what you think of people less fortunate than you?
I'm not even sure what to say about this.
Alcoholism is such a horrible disease for anyone affected by it or their families and loved ones.
I guess I have hope that alcoholics get real help. I never thought of that as occupying them through the day bribing them with beer. But if you feel that someone has no hope for sobriety, maybe this is a viable alternative. I have no idea.
But if this were in the US, they would go on strike to get an increase from two cans on a good work day to three.
Alcoholism is such a horrible disease for anyone affected by it or their families and loved ones.
I guess I have hope that alcoholics get real help. I never thought of that as occupying them through the day bribing them with beer. But if you feel that someone has no hope for sobriety, maybe this is a viable alternative. I have no idea.
But if this were in the US, they would go on strike to get an increase from two cans on a good work day to three.
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A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex.
STIs are the most common cause of genital sores.
Condoms are the most effective way to prevent HIV and STDs.
PrEP is used by people with high risk to prevent HIV infection.
