Aa
War & Peace
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/07/20377556-white-house-showed-gruesome-videos-to-senators-in-case-for-syria-strike?lite
Does the Syrian war, the broader conflict currently going on across that region, and specifically the use of chemical or biological weapons pose enough threat to the US, its allies, and its interests to justify our involvement?
Does the Syrian war, the broader conflict currently going on across that region, and specifically the use of chemical or biological weapons pose enough threat to the US, its allies, and its interests to justify our involvement?
I believe one can be wise and not know exactly what is going on.
Yes, these threads tend to have a life of their own. I think it is due to the myriad complex issues they entail.
I think Obama is strong and wise and that he has known pretty much all along what he is doing. It doesn't mean I will always agree with him, but I take comfort in knowing that he is a decent human being with a great mind and despite the hatred he gets from so many corners, remains true and strong in his leadership role.
I think Obama is strong and wise and that he has known pretty much all along what he is doing. It doesn't mean I will always agree with him, but I take comfort in knowing that he is a decent human being with a great mind and despite the hatred he gets from so many corners, remains true and strong in his leadership role.
This thread has gone through so many changes, I hope I am understanding correctly and that my comments make sense here. I am of course also incorporating what I have heard in the media the last 2 or 3 days.
Some say President Obama is showing weakness by re thinking his earlier comments. I personally think that what he has said/done in the last few days shows incredible and amazing leadership!! He is basically saying that he is prepared to do whatever it takes, but that he is looking for a peaceful resolution first if possible. Acknowledging that you need to rethink your position, and perhaps look at alternatives to war doesn't scream weakness ot me. It screams strength! Now this is a man that I would encourage my country to follow. I'm so glad he has said and done what he has, and admire him a great deal as a result. Maybe there are some Americans that think it makes him look weak, but I am betting the rest of the wold thinks differently. Bombing/war is and should be a serious decision, and not something that should be done to save face. Maybe there will not ultimately be a possibility of a peaceful resolution, but if my country were to follow him and the US and I sure feel a whole lot better knowing that he jumped to other possibilities first, war last. It makes me and most I know feel better about being a sworn allie. Happy to hear his comments, it was a good thing.
Some say President Obama is showing weakness by re thinking his earlier comments. I personally think that what he has said/done in the last few days shows incredible and amazing leadership!! He is basically saying that he is prepared to do whatever it takes, but that he is looking for a peaceful resolution first if possible. Acknowledging that you need to rethink your position, and perhaps look at alternatives to war doesn't scream weakness ot me. It screams strength! Now this is a man that I would encourage my country to follow. I'm so glad he has said and done what he has, and admire him a great deal as a result. Maybe there are some Americans that think it makes him look weak, but I am betting the rest of the wold thinks differently. Bombing/war is and should be a serious decision, and not something that should be done to save face. Maybe there will not ultimately be a possibility of a peaceful resolution, but if my country were to follow him and the US and I sure feel a whole lot better knowing that he jumped to other possibilities first, war last. It makes me and most I know feel better about being a sworn allie. Happy to hear his comments, it was a good thing.
Newsmax
Alan Dershowitz: Syria a Political, Not Legal Decision
Monday, September 9, 2013 05:28 PM
By: Bill Hoffmann
Famed civil-rights lawyer Alan Dershowitz says the Constitution is inadequate to deal with the issue of whether the United States should launch a military strike against Syria.
"This is really a political decision, not a legal decision, and to the extent it's legal, the politics and the legality are almost inseparable in a situation like this," Dersheowitz told "The Steve Malzberg Show" on Newsmax TV.
"The Constitution says that Congress shall have power to declare war. This is not something that requires a declaration of war. We don't want to declare war on Syria; that would be absurd. Plainly the Constitution is inadequate to the situation. It's an 18th century document and we're dealing with 21st century problems."
"The Constitution says that Congress shall have power to declare war. This is not something that requires a declaration of war. We don't want to declare war on Syria; that would be absurd. Plainly the Constitution is inadequate to the situation. It's an 18th century document and we're dealing with 21st century problems."
Dershowitz, a Harvard Law professor, said the U.S. has not officially declared war since 1941— its entry into World War II with the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor — and it's unlikely it will ever again.
"Since that time, presidents have engaged in the Korean War – which was a real war – the Vietnam War – which was a real war – the Iraq War – which is pretty much a real war – the Afghanistan War," he said.
"This is much, much different. This is much more like a Libya, like Kosovo, and anybody who tells you they know the answers to whether it's lawful or not lawful is selling you snake oil. Nobody knows the answer to that question and it's probably not a question that will ever get into the Supreme Court."
Dereshowitz said he believes that if a strike against Syria is not approved on Capitol Hill, President Barack Obama will not proceed with it.
"My own prediction is if it doesn't pass, he won't do it. Look, let's remember what the situation really is like. Here we have a humanitarian issue that doesn't involve the United States. The United States is no more interested in this than any other country," he said.
"In fact, the Arab countries should have a much greater stake in this. Pakistan should be far more interested in whether Muslims are killing Muslims and Jordan should be much more interested in whether Arabs are killing Arabs than the United States. This [does] not involved the national interest of the United States. We're just trying to be do-gooders."
He called out the "hypocrites in Europe" who he said claim to be involved in human rights, but criticize the U.S. for a lack of involvement.
"It would be easier today to get the Europeans to want to attack Israel than it would be to get the Europeans to try to attack Syria. They care more about Israel building a settlement somewhere than they do about hundreds of thousands of Arabs killing each other," he said.
"It is such hypocrisy. The minute we pay any attention to those academic and needy hypocrites in Europe is the minute we have to succumb to their selective morality, or immorality."
He added that the U.S. would never have gone to war against Germany if Japan hadn't "foolishly bombed" Pearl Harbor.
"And then we wouldn't have gone to war them except for the fact that Germany declared war on the United States and then we responded by declaring war on Germany," he said.
"The notion that this is an administration that is dying to go to war, it's not. When you think of four people who are more adverse to war, it's hard to think of any four people more that Barack Obama, [Secretary of State] John Kerry, [Secretary of Defense] Chuck Hagel, and U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations] Samantha Power."
Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/us-syria-missile-strike/2013/09/09/id/524650?promo_code=F492-1&utm_source=Test_Newsmax_Feed&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1#ixzz2eVQOl1w6
What a joke...have any of you considered were evil.
As far as California goes when I was in OC all my life it was the third largest economy in the world. Thanks to the liberal's who haven't a clue it has been broken. Get serious, pay attention and grow up.
As far as California goes when I was in OC all my life it was the third largest economy in the world. Thanks to the liberal's who haven't a clue it has been broken. Get serious, pay attention and grow up.
No no no, you promised WE could have California, remember? Your renaging my friend! lol.
Glass, will you please leave poor California alone?!!
LOL
LOL
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
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C. S. Lewis
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C. S. Lewis
LOL sure , send them to my stateLOL, California is a mess,
so are a lot of other states:(
Yup , California is a mess I have to agree
but.......at least we know how to pole dance;)
Desrt, you could be right !
Michael, Agree, they will continue to fight forever as they have always done .
Riv, we shall see what transpires, just don't look at the pics, this was horrific,
speechless , seeing all the children . Also , I remember seeing on one site
the beheadings of our people with Al-Quida before we went in to Iraq.
They have no regard for human life over there like we do, it's different.
so are a lot of other states:(
Yup , California is a mess I have to agree
but.......at least we know how to pole dance;)
Desrt, you could be right !
Michael, Agree, they will continue to fight forever as they have always done .
Riv, we shall see what transpires, just don't look at the pics, this was horrific,
speechless , seeing all the children . Also , I remember seeing on one site
the beheadings of our people with Al-Quida before we went in to Iraq.
They have no regard for human life over there like we do, it's different.
Great Idea! I wonder if they would leave if we offered them California? I think it would be Great. We could be out of the Middle East Mess and Israel could fix California’s Economy Mess!
I think we let them fight for as long as they can. It keeps the radical elements engaged so they can't do any mischief elsewhere. I have always maintained that if you could just pluck Israel out of the Middle East the remaining population would just wage war with themselves forever. That's what they have always done and what they'll always do.
If anyone is baiting us it's Iran.
You have expressed exactly where I am at. It has got to be the most difficult thing ever.
@brice-you are right and it goes with Tim's quote. Once we engage in any level of war and if we hit the gas, the repercussions will be intolerable.
When I said "pull a bush" I was referring to what I believe was his Administrations motivations behind the attacks but you make a good point.
Whatever is done I just hope it can be an in and out sort of strike.
@brice-you are right and it goes with Tim's quote. Once we engage in any level of war and if we hit the gas, the repercussions will be intolerable.
When I said "pull a bush" I was referring to what I believe was his Administrations motivations behind the attacks but you make a good point.
Whatever is done I just hope it can be an in and out sort of strike.
I agree Riv......very sad.
Horrible, horrible, horrible.
I just have this feeling not another country will stand with us for
a reason. Something is not right here. Is Assad baiting the US? I don't know.
I have a feeling Obama will go it alone, how can we stand by and let this
happen? why have other countries simply let this go? even France has pulled out now.
They have been fighting over there for ages, and will continue to do so however maybe, just maybe if the UN would stand with us like it should be it would stop . Something is not adding up.
No one wants war...myself included. but cripes !!!
By now Assad has moved everything and a lot of innocent people may get harmed , even by air strikes.....we don't know where the chemicals are do we? if we hit them.....we are not any better than Assad.
It's a no win situation in my opinion.
As always, I truly believe there is a lot we the people don't know.
This is just one big cluster f***.
Horrible, horrible, horrible.
I just have this feeling not another country will stand with us for
a reason. Something is not right here. Is Assad baiting the US? I don't know.
I have a feeling Obama will go it alone, how can we stand by and let this
happen? why have other countries simply let this go? even France has pulled out now.
They have been fighting over there for ages, and will continue to do so however maybe, just maybe if the UN would stand with us like it should be it would stop . Something is not adding up.
No one wants war...myself included. but cripes !!!
By now Assad has moved everything and a lot of innocent people may get harmed , even by air strikes.....we don't know where the chemicals are do we? if we hit them.....we are not any better than Assad.
It's a no win situation in my opinion.
As always, I truly believe there is a lot we the people don't know.
This is just one big cluster f***.
My deal with air strikes is simple. If we hit a stock hold of chemical weapons, we then are responsible for discharging the very same gas that Assad used on his people. What are we now?
Is it okay for us to dispense this gas, under the guise of doing the right thing?
I was under the impression that our mission was to be to stop the use of the gas.
Is it okay for us to dispense this gas, under the guise of doing the right thing?
I was under the impression that our mission was to be to stop the use of the gas.
I still am to the notion that I have to have faith in what elections are all about and leave this one to those we elected to make those decisions.
I dont think we have the option of doing nothing so for me, that is a fact. Secondly, as usual, like adgal said in another post, they have taken this as a political footbal to use and I think that is obscene. Do the videos make a difference for me? No, and I dont think it will to anyone else either, as we already know what happens when they are used and we have seen that and more on the nightly news for how long now, which takes the shock effect away. I too would like to see where everyone else is that signed that treaty all those years ago and why it is the US expected to take action alone. Now they are talking about how the sequestration reduced military funding and blaming that one on the admin when clearly that is not the case at all and is another way of getting that part of the sequestration cancelled. It IS all politics and its sickening. Here is the deal.
Did Assad use chemical weapons against his people and are we sure of it..We do know they were used and will probably never know for sure one hundred percent who did it, but all the evidence points to the assad. so I hear.
Can we, as a leader of the free world, regardless of what anyone else does or doesnt do, take a blind eye and if we do how will this come back to bite us and if we do go in, what are the consequences of that and what is the end game.
You have some calling for regime change and you have others saying diplomatic maneuvers only.
I also think we need to look at this particular situation in and of itself and stay away from comparisons because if you go to comparing, we will become chicken ***** and as a result will be looked at by the rest of the world as chicken ***** which leaves us vulnerable as a nation imo.
I would be comfortable with strategically placed airstrikes to take out the capability of the chemicals and their delivery system but not for a regime change. As far as all the dead, war is war and their will be dead people, however, we did not sign a treaty to go into another country because one side was losing or had high casuality numbers, and we did sign a treaty regarding the use of chem and nuclear weapons against ones own people . That is the difference to me.
So take out the chems and their delivery system and let them continue fighting each other in their civil war. imo
I dont think we have the option of doing nothing so for me, that is a fact. Secondly, as usual, like adgal said in another post, they have taken this as a political footbal to use and I think that is obscene. Do the videos make a difference for me? No, and I dont think it will to anyone else either, as we already know what happens when they are used and we have seen that and more on the nightly news for how long now, which takes the shock effect away. I too would like to see where everyone else is that signed that treaty all those years ago and why it is the US expected to take action alone. Now they are talking about how the sequestration reduced military funding and blaming that one on the admin when clearly that is not the case at all and is another way of getting that part of the sequestration cancelled. It IS all politics and its sickening. Here is the deal.
Did Assad use chemical weapons against his people and are we sure of it..We do know they were used and will probably never know for sure one hundred percent who did it, but all the evidence points to the assad. so I hear.
Can we, as a leader of the free world, regardless of what anyone else does or doesnt do, take a blind eye and if we do how will this come back to bite us and if we do go in, what are the consequences of that and what is the end game.
You have some calling for regime change and you have others saying diplomatic maneuvers only.
I also think we need to look at this particular situation in and of itself and stay away from comparisons because if you go to comparing, we will become chicken ***** and as a result will be looked at by the rest of the world as chicken ***** which leaves us vulnerable as a nation imo.
I would be comfortable with strategically placed airstrikes to take out the capability of the chemicals and their delivery system but not for a regime change. As far as all the dead, war is war and their will be dead people, however, we did not sign a treaty to go into another country because one side was losing or had high casuality numbers, and we did sign a treaty regarding the use of chem and nuclear weapons against ones own people . That is the difference to me.
So take out the chems and their delivery system and let them continue fighting each other in their civil war. imo
Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.
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Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)
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Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)
Well, and here is the thing about chemical weapons. Assad has been using them for probably months. Why now? And why are chemical weapons a bigger problem then just plain killing which has been happening in Syria for well over 2 years. 100,000 + dead. Why now?
Didn't Hussein use mustard gas and sarin or other never agents?
"Pulling a Bush"..... What does that even mean? Gulf War??? Or the other Iraq invasion? You don't see a similarity in Syria's leader and Hussein? Hussein gassed what, 5,000 people.
Your words "those children are our children" ring true with me. And I do not believe Obama is trying to do anything wrong. In all honesty, as much as I am not a Bush fan, I also don't think he was evil either. It itsn't about the Presidents, at least in my opinion. However, if you look at Iraq, many many innoecent people died. Both at the hands of their dictator, and as a result of war. And again, I ask, will bombing Syria make things better? Will it stop at an air strike? I don't believe it will, and I believe many more will die.
It's not about not doing something, at least not in my opinion. It's about what is the best thing to do, and can you trust politicians in general right now? I'm sorry, but the US politicians aren't to be trusted at this time. At least not in my opinion. Are they for/against this because of what's right, or is it over power. Yes, something should be done. And it should have been done in Darfur and a host of other countries where major wrongs are and have taken place. So the question isn't should something be done, it's about WHAT should be done. And I'm sorry - I dont' believe US go it alone air strikes are the answer. I still think that it will only lead to many many more innocent deaths.
It's not about not doing something, at least not in my opinion. It's about what is the best thing to do, and can you trust politicians in general right now? I'm sorry, but the US politicians aren't to be trusted at this time. At least not in my opinion. Are they for/against this because of what's right, or is it over power. Yes, something should be done. And it should have been done in Darfur and a host of other countries where major wrongs are and have taken place. So the question isn't should something be done, it's about WHAT should be done. And I'm sorry - I dont' believe US go it alone air strikes are the answer. I still think that it will only lead to many many more innocent deaths.
Thanks desrt for bringing up the really key and painful part of this issue.
I am sorry, but if you all have the courage to watch the videos of children twitching and foaming as they die and you are still thinking that our Pres is pulling a Bush, then all I can say is you are mistaken.
Those children are our children, those people are ours, we are one people, one planet and if we show so little regard for their suffering that, we will not try to stop this from taking place, then we are not the good folks we think we are.
NO ONE wants war...but are we willing to wait until they have these weapons perfected and distributed around the world and our own cities are attacked? Does anyone really believe that Iran and Syria (with a little link to N.Korea) will stop with their own people?
I still say no boots on the ground, but for goodness sake we *must* do something.
I am sorry, but if you all have the courage to watch the videos of children twitching and foaming as they die and you are still thinking that our Pres is pulling a Bush, then all I can say is you are mistaken.
Those children are our children, those people are ours, we are one people, one planet and if we show so little regard for their suffering that, we will not try to stop this from taking place, then we are not the good folks we think we are.
NO ONE wants war...but are we willing to wait until they have these weapons perfected and distributed around the world and our own cities are attacked? Does anyone really believe that Iran and Syria (with a little link to N.Korea) will stop with their own people?
I still say no boots on the ground, but for goodness sake we *must* do something.
I still vote only do this with allies and I know I've stated my reasons so many times, it would be beating a dead horse to say them again.
Question though - war is war, and I don't understand why chemical weapons are regarded as so much worse then others. Death is death, and is horrific regardless. So while I understand why many feel it's time to stop what is happening in Syria, I don't understand this stance in terms of this particular weapon. If we are going to have an all out ban on chemical, where does that leave nuclear? Talk about weapons of mass destruction. I say ban them all!! I know I'd sleep better at night given what is happening in the world right now.
Question though - war is war, and I don't understand why chemical weapons are regarded as so much worse then others. Death is death, and is horrific regardless. So while I understand why many feel it's time to stop what is happening in Syria, I don't understand this stance in terms of this particular weapon. If we are going to have an all out ban on chemical, where does that leave nuclear? Talk about weapons of mass destruction. I say ban them all!! I know I'd sleep better at night given what is happening in the world right now.
That should be "regime change"
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