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Your equality laws are unjust, pope tells UK before visit
Pope Benedict XVI marked the announcement of his first papal visit to Britain with an unprecedented attack on the government's equality legislation yesterday, claiming it threatened religious freedom and ran contrary to "natural law".
Speaking at the Vatican to visiting Catholic bishops of England and Wales, he described changes to the law as unjust and urged them to invoke "missionary zeal" to resist them.
The comments came during a five-yearly trip to the Vatican by the bishops, during which they made presentations on their concerns about the place of religion in an increasingly secular society.
The pope's broadside appeared to be aimed squarely at recent legislation that prevents Catholic adoption agencies from discriminating against gay couples, and the proposed equality bill, which would make it harder for churches to exclude job applications from homosexuals or people who have changed their gender.
The pope said: "The effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal [of equality] has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs. In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed."
He also used the address to confirm that he would visit the UK in September. But his comments drew swift criticism from the National Secular Society, which said it would stage protests during the state-funded trip. Terry Sanderson, the society's president, said: "The taxpayer is going to be faced with a bill for £20m for the visit in which he has already indicated he will attack equal rights and promote discrimination."
Sanderson said he would seek to bring together gay and feminist groups, family planning organisations, abortion rights and victim support groups, and anyone else who "felt under siege" from the Vatican's "current militancy".
But yesterday the Pope urged the bishops to make their voices heard and defend the faith, saying that Christian teaching did not undermine or restrict the freedom of others.
"Continue to insist upon your right to participate in national debate through respectful dialogue with other elements in society. In doing so, you are not only maintaining long-standing British traditions of freedom of expression and honest exchange of opinion, but are giving voice to the convictions of many people who lack the means to express them: when so many of the population claim to be Christian, how could anyone dispute the gospel's right to be heard?" he said.
"If the full saving message of Christ is to be presented effectively and convincingly to the world, the Catholic community in your country needs to speak with a united voice. This requires not only you, the bishops, but also priests, teachers, catechists, writers – in short, all who are engaged in the task of communicating the gospel – to be attentive to the promptings of the spirit, who guides the whole church into the truth, gathers her into unity and inspires her with missionary zeal."
Before the group meeting yesterday, the pope met the 35 bishops, who each reported on diocesan matters. The archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, said they were encouraged by the pope's words. "It has been clear that he knows the situation and applied it to a move in legislation to look for equality. Adoption agencies either closed or moved away from the Catholic church because of the legislation. That was an example of what I believe was an unreasonable curtailment of the Catholic contribution. Of the 480 agencies, only 11 were Catholic. It was disproportionate.
"We do not support the notion of discrimination. But you have to distinguish between people."
A Catholic commentator said the impact of the sexual orientation regulations had left a deeper impression on the bishops than the equality bill. Clifford Longley said: "The bishops are still very bothered by the gay adoption issue, they felt it was grossly unfair. The equality bill was more of an Anglican priority. The Catholics were concerned, but it wasn't top of their agenda." He said the pope's letter was a vote of confidence in England and Wales's bishops, urging them to be proud of their beliefs and to resist state attempts to squeeze them out.
His response to the bishops could be seen as an assessment of their performance. Longley added: "He is telling them to stand up for their right to be heard. He does accept that in a secular society they will be one voice among many."
Speaking at the Vatican to visiting Catholic bishops of England and Wales, he described changes to the law as unjust and urged them to invoke "missionary zeal" to resist them.
The comments came during a five-yearly trip to the Vatican by the bishops, during which they made presentations on their concerns about the place of religion in an increasingly secular society.
The pope's broadside appeared to be aimed squarely at recent legislation that prevents Catholic adoption agencies from discriminating against gay couples, and the proposed equality bill, which would make it harder for churches to exclude job applications from homosexuals or people who have changed their gender.
The pope said: "The effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal [of equality] has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs. In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed."
He also used the address to confirm that he would visit the UK in September. But his comments drew swift criticism from the National Secular Society, which said it would stage protests during the state-funded trip. Terry Sanderson, the society's president, said: "The taxpayer is going to be faced with a bill for £20m for the visit in which he has already indicated he will attack equal rights and promote discrimination."
Sanderson said he would seek to bring together gay and feminist groups, family planning organisations, abortion rights and victim support groups, and anyone else who "felt under siege" from the Vatican's "current militancy".
But yesterday the Pope urged the bishops to make their voices heard and defend the faith, saying that Christian teaching did not undermine or restrict the freedom of others.
"Continue to insist upon your right to participate in national debate through respectful dialogue with other elements in society. In doing so, you are not only maintaining long-standing British traditions of freedom of expression and honest exchange of opinion, but are giving voice to the convictions of many people who lack the means to express them: when so many of the population claim to be Christian, how could anyone dispute the gospel's right to be heard?" he said.
"If the full saving message of Christ is to be presented effectively and convincingly to the world, the Catholic community in your country needs to speak with a united voice. This requires not only you, the bishops, but also priests, teachers, catechists, writers – in short, all who are engaged in the task of communicating the gospel – to be attentive to the promptings of the spirit, who guides the whole church into the truth, gathers her into unity and inspires her with missionary zeal."
Before the group meeting yesterday, the pope met the 35 bishops, who each reported on diocesan matters. The archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, said they were encouraged by the pope's words. "It has been clear that he knows the situation and applied it to a move in legislation to look for equality. Adoption agencies either closed or moved away from the Catholic church because of the legislation. That was an example of what I believe was an unreasonable curtailment of the Catholic contribution. Of the 480 agencies, only 11 were Catholic. It was disproportionate.
"We do not support the notion of discrimination. But you have to distinguish between people."
A Catholic commentator said the impact of the sexual orientation regulations had left a deeper impression on the bishops than the equality bill. Clifford Longley said: "The bishops are still very bothered by the gay adoption issue, they felt it was grossly unfair. The equality bill was more of an Anglican priority. The Catholics were concerned, but it wasn't top of their agenda." He said the pope's letter was a vote of confidence in England and Wales's bishops, urging them to be proud of their beliefs and to resist state attempts to squeeze them out.
His response to the bishops could be seen as an assessment of their performance. Longley added: "He is telling them to stand up for their right to be heard. He does accept that in a secular society they will be one voice among many."
I just wanted to point out that regulating any religion through laws and regulations is a bad idea. If you're going after one religion, you must apply the same principals to all.
And so far as the pedophiles, Bury them under the jail!! And I do disagree with some of the Catholic church's views. They did try to cover up the pedophilia scandal. Fortunately some brave souls spoke up and they are now are being prosecuted. Same as some the off shoot of the Mormons. Some radical Mormons are in my view pedophiles. And they need to be in jail.
I don't agree with the Santeria practice of animal sacrifice. But the Supreme Court upheld their right to do so.
And so far as the pedophiles, Bury them under the jail!! And I do disagree with some of the Catholic church's views. They did try to cover up the pedophilia scandal. Fortunately some brave souls spoke up and they are now are being prosecuted. Same as some the off shoot of the Mormons. Some radical Mormons are in my view pedophiles. And they need to be in jail.
I don't agree with the Santeria practice of animal sacrifice. But the Supreme Court upheld their right to do so.
I agree, religious beliefs and practices should be off limits, providing it's legal. As for adoption, I do feel strongly that the parent putting a child up for adoption should have the right to choose what faith that child should be raised in. Be it Christian, Muslim, etc. Many religious groups have their own adoption agencies....the church of Mormon, Catholic's, etc. I have no problem with that. I was just pointing out that it can be different country by country as to how much influence religion plays on politics. As I am a firm believer in seperation of church and state (and that goes both ways), I find it interesting. One of the things that I have read a fair amount about is countries that are governed according to religion. There are many, and I can tell you I would not want to live there...freedom as we know it in Canada and the US is not permitted. It is a fine line though, and I do believe everyone should be free to believe and practice as they see fit...again, within the boundaries of the law. So in my mind, a Catholic priest molesting children should be prosecuted according to the law. It should not remain a church issue. I also would like to say that it probably seems I am being very hard on the Catholic Church. Even though I am no longer a practicing Catholic, that is simply because I do not agree with some of their policies that I feel are Church dictated, not necessarily Bible dictated (if that makes any sense). I still have a tremendous amount of respect for them and their beliefs. I am not intending to slam them.
Here a few interesting links about Muslim adoption: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7535-2005Jan13.html
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1157365802861&pagename=Zone-English-Family%2FFYELayout
Saving the best for last: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/305821/gay_couples_adopting_children_the_islamic.html
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1157365802861&pagename=Zone-English-Family%2FFYELayout
Saving the best for last: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/305821/gay_couples_adopting_children_the_islamic.html
Question: If Muslims had an adoption service that only adopted out to other Muslims and excluded homosexuals, what do you honestly believe the Government would do?
I don't think they'd touch it with a 10 foot pole!
I don't think they'd touch it with a 10 foot pole!
As long as the Church doctrine is not criminal, as in killing, pedophilia, etc. Government needs to keep their big noses out of it!
Here we have very little influence on politics from religous groups. It's just not as big an issue here, and I don't think most would stand for it. I personally think that is why our laws around gay marriage are different. There was a bit of protest when it became legal, but not a whole lot. I do believe churches still have to operate within the law, otherwise we would have religious groups started up all over the place to allow people to hide behind their religion to do what they wanted. It is a fine line, and a difficult one. I can tell you that the Catholic Churches stance on these issues is the reason I left the Catholic Church. And there is a movement inside the Church to make changes and, as they put it, "come into this century". It's a real interesting debate.
I basically agree with what you have all said. There must be a separation of church and state, but where do you draw the line? If priests molest little kids, do we let the church deal with it (like they have)? There are certain laws that even a church must obey, they certainly can't be allowed human sacrificing, right? What I really have a problem with is, the church protesting this legislation, yet many churches get very involved in politics (at least here in the US). I don't know how it works in England or Canada Etc. but in the US, churches are tax exempt....they don't pay taxes. My opinion is if they want to stay involved in politics.....pay taxes.
I think I've steered off subject a little, but I guess my point is, Where do you draw the line, when it comes to separation of church and state?
I think I've steered off subject a little, but I guess my point is, Where do you draw the line, when it comes to separation of church and state?
I agree that this is a perfect example as to why religion and politics just do not mix. I basically echo what you are saying...the Church should not dictate to the gov't and the gov't should not dictate to the Church. When religion rules any gov't you now have a dictatorship. And religious practices should remain sacred, providing they function inside of the law.
Religion does not belong in government and government doesn't belong in religion. But as these are Catholic entities of which the Pope is speaking, he should have a loud voice in this. If these entities are not taking money from the government, they should be exempt from this new law.
I do not believe that government should be dictating church policy or interfering with it. The Catholic church has a long standing stance against homosexuality. They are a large and valid religious entity. The government has no business dictating policy to them.
I do not believe that government should be dictating church policy or interfering with it. The Catholic church has a long standing stance against homosexuality. They are a large and valid religious entity. The government has no business dictating policy to them.
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