Aa
tylenols real history
things your mama never told you.....
Induction by paracetamol of bladder and liver tumours in the rat. Effects on hepatocyte fine structure.Flaks B, Flaks A, Shaw AP.
Groups of male and female inbred Leeds strain rats were fed diets containing either 0.5% or 1.0% paracetamol by weight for up to 18 months. At the 1.0% dosage level, 20% of rats of both sexes developed neoplastic nodules of the liver, a statistically significant incidence. These rats also showed gross enlargement of their livers and an increase in foci of cellular alteration, the latter also being observed in the low dosage male rats. Papillomas of the transitional epithelium of the bladder developed in all paracetamol-treated groups, and three rats bore bladder carcinomas. However, significant yields of bladder tumours were only obtained from low dosage females and high dosage males. Additionally, 20 to 25% of paracetamol-treated rats developed hyperplasia of the bladder epithelium, which was not coincident with the presence of bladder calculi. A low yield of tumours at various other sites also arose following paracetamol feeding. An electron microscope study of the livers of paracetamol-treated rats revealed ultrastructural changes in the hepatocytes that resemble those that result from exposure to a variety of known hepatocarcinogens.
Induction by paracetamol of bladder and liver tumours in the rat. Effects on hepatocyte fine structure.Flaks B, Flaks A, Shaw AP.
Groups of male and female inbred Leeds strain rats were fed diets containing either 0.5% or 1.0% paracetamol by weight for up to 18 months. At the 1.0% dosage level, 20% of rats of both sexes developed neoplastic nodules of the liver, a statistically significant incidence. These rats also showed gross enlargement of their livers and an increase in foci of cellular alteration, the latter also being observed in the low dosage male rats. Papillomas of the transitional epithelium of the bladder developed in all paracetamol-treated groups, and three rats bore bladder carcinomas. However, significant yields of bladder tumours were only obtained from low dosage females and high dosage males. Additionally, 20 to 25% of paracetamol-treated rats developed hyperplasia of the bladder epithelium, which was not coincident with the presence of bladder calculi. A low yield of tumours at various other sites also arose following paracetamol feeding. An electron microscope study of the livers of paracetamol-treated rats revealed ultrastructural changes in the hepatocytes that resemble those that result from exposure to a variety of known hepatocarcinogens.
yes, he was an alcoholic.
However, remember this, if you are at stage 3 or 4 then the tylenols damage will be magnified by the fact that the liver size is so dimished, function wise. So it will behave very similarly with the drug as someone drinking alcohol with a fully functional liver...
so the fact that that person was a drinker has no real bearing on what I'm trying to communicate to liver patients regard what acetominiphan does. It causes more necrosis than other painkillers. That's the bottom line. Tramadol also causes higher necrosis, I know because my ALT was cut in half when I stopped taking it. And I don't drink.
The study above was misinterpreted by Guy....the meds were given by ,05 volume in the DIET of the animals, not by their body weight...by their foods weight.
In other words, the study was mimicking what normal human doses would be like.
mb
However, remember this, if you are at stage 3 or 4 then the tylenols damage will be magnified by the fact that the liver size is so dimished, function wise. So it will behave very similarly with the drug as someone drinking alcohol with a fully functional liver...
so the fact that that person was a drinker has no real bearing on what I'm trying to communicate to liver patients regard what acetominiphan does. It causes more necrosis than other painkillers. That's the bottom line. Tramadol also causes higher necrosis, I know because my ALT was cut in half when I stopped taking it. And I don't drink.
The study above was misinterpreted by Guy....the meds were given by ,05 volume in the DIET of the animals, not by their body weight...by their foods weight.
In other words, the study was mimicking what normal human doses would be like.
mb
Just thought some might like to know the the ASSLD 2010 is offering a 350 dollar seminar on tylenols toxicity....it's one of the four top listed seminars for the year.
it would be pretty incongrueous to think they'd be devoting this kind of time to tylenol unless new research wasn't raising more alarm bells.
I can hardly wait for the new research NOT funded by the drug companies to finally see the light of day and will be looking forward to all the ASSLD lectures.
mb
it would be pretty incongrueous to think they'd be devoting this kind of time to tylenol unless new research wasn't raising more alarm bells.
I can hardly wait for the new research NOT funded by the drug companies to finally see the light of day and will be looking forward to all the ASSLD lectures.
mb
ah ah ah st setaying a alive, ALIVE!!!
good song forthis forumn....Gotta go with that one bill
good song forthis forumn....Gotta go with that one bill
However, I still believe and always will that Tylenol is safe and effective for hcv patients when taken in recommended dosages by your treating physician and is still the most effective OTC fever and pain reducer on the market.
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Yeah, what Trinity said.
fret
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Yeah, what Trinity said.
fret
you read the study wrong, it was ,o5 % of the diet fed them, not .o5 of their actual body weight.
mb
I think its interesting the person I warned not to take so much tylenol was taking betweeen 6 and 12 tablets a day, and had been for a year...I warned him repeatedly...finally his liver shut down and he had to stop.
But he started up again soon after...it was the pain med along with the tylenol he was after.....
anyway, after years of this they had to remove half his bladder as it was tumor laden...just the stuff the studies showed happens happened to him, and he had no liver disease.
WITH liver disease the risks become much more significant, so we need to heed the warning to use little.
We could liken my reasoning to say, a dozen building blocks.
Everyone take their dozen building blocks and stack them however you want.
Now put 2 tylenol on top of your blocks...you have twelve blocks to deal with using and detoxicating that drug.....now remove 2 block and you are at stage one...less vloume to process those pills.
remove 2 more, stage 2...remeove 2 more and you are stage 3, remove 2 more and you are stage 4....you only have 4 blocks left of the original 12 with which to process all you food and drugs. !/4 the liver can't do the whole livers job...not well.
remeove 2 more and now you are at ESLD just a few square inches left to process anything at all...no more than a 3 yr old baby has....and yet you have an adult body that needs its support...every drug is a strain, every morsel of food is as well.
People in later stages need to get off everything they can, and put up with pain or else use the drug least damaging to the liver at that point, if you must use something.
It makes perfect sense if you understand the concept of diminushed capacity as one ages. Most overdose fatalities are from drugs given to the elderly that their livers cn no longer handle, or else they are prescribed things that interact adversely.
mb
I think its interesting the person I warned not to take so much tylenol was taking betweeen 6 and 12 tablets a day, and had been for a year...I warned him repeatedly...finally his liver shut down and he had to stop.
But he started up again soon after...it was the pain med along with the tylenol he was after.....
anyway, after years of this they had to remove half his bladder as it was tumor laden...just the stuff the studies showed happens happened to him, and he had no liver disease.
WITH liver disease the risks become much more significant, so we need to heed the warning to use little.
We could liken my reasoning to say, a dozen building blocks.
Everyone take their dozen building blocks and stack them however you want.
Now put 2 tylenol on top of your blocks...you have twelve blocks to deal with using and detoxicating that drug.....now remove 2 block and you are at stage one...less vloume to process those pills.
remove 2 more, stage 2...remeove 2 more and you are stage 3, remove 2 more and you are stage 4....you only have 4 blocks left of the original 12 with which to process all you food and drugs. !/4 the liver can't do the whole livers job...not well.
remeove 2 more and now you are at ESLD just a few square inches left to process anything at all...no more than a 3 yr old baby has....and yet you have an adult body that needs its support...every drug is a strain, every morsel of food is as well.
People in later stages need to get off everything they can, and put up with pain or else use the drug least damaging to the liver at that point, if you must use something.
It makes perfect sense if you understand the concept of diminushed capacity as one ages. Most overdose fatalities are from drugs given to the elderly that their livers cn no longer handle, or else they are prescribed things that interact adversely.
Hahahaha.. I remember that song. As a matter of fact, I went to high school in Akron. OH with one of the writers (Jerry Buckner). A really bad way to mark your success. Hahahahah....
Magnum
Magnum
The quote was from Mary B's posting above but is consistent with everything I've read in the last five years.
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:W_ss1ix2X20J:www.faetc.org/Hepatitis/Patient/Hepatitis_C_Patient_Education_Slides.ppt+CDC+tylenol+dosage+with+HCV&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I've heard of some doctors willing to go as high as 3000 mg/day but that's the exception rather than the rule. My understanding is no more than 1000 mg/day with cirrhosis.
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:W_ss1ix2X20J:www.faetc.org/Hepatitis/Patient/Hepatitis_C_Patient_Education_Slides.ppt+CDC+tylenol+dosage+with+HCV&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I've heard of some doctors willing to go as high as 3000 mg/day but that's the exception rather than the rule. My understanding is no more than 1000 mg/day with cirrhosis.
Ddn't one of the mice wear tweed (the "control" mouse)? If I remember right the "control" mouse got less cancer and more women.
Thanks for the memories!
jd
Thanks for the memories!
jd
"the new ASSLD recommendation is no more that 2 grams period per day for liver patients and this only if in stage 1 or 2."
If you have no worse than mild to moderate fibrosis and your pain can be controlled with no more than 4 tablets in a 24 hour period, go for it. It's not rocket science.
If you have no worse than mild to moderate fibrosis and your pain can be controlled with no more than 4 tablets in a 24 hour period, go for it. It's not rocket science.
An article on acetominophen that talks about it in general and then specifically for persons with Hep C:
http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/factsheets_pdf/Acetominophen.pdf
Excerpts from that article:
Acetaminophen for People with Hepatitis
What does all this mean for people with chronic hepatitis
B or C? Doctors often recommend acetaminophen to
relieve symptoms such as body aches and fever, which are
common side effects of interferon therapy. For most people,
acetaminophen is safe and effective. According to the FDA’s
Dr. John Senior, “It’s very clear the average dose for the
average person is very safe. But we are not all average
people.” For many individuals, acetaminophen is still a good
choice, especially considering that other over-the-counter
pain-relievers can cause problems of their own (such
as stomach bleeding with aspirin and nonsteroidal antiinflammatory
drugs).
Many HCV providers now recommend that their patients
with HCV take a somewhat lower dose than is generally
recommended for people with healthy livers. It is also
important that medical providers know what medications
their patients are using (including over-the-counter and
prescription medications) so that the medical provider
can best advise a person with hepatitis C on how much
acetaminophen is safe.
The following tips can help prevent acetaminophen-related
liver toxicity:
• Do not take more than the recommended dose of 4 grams
within a 24-hour period (for example, 12 regular strength or 8
extra strength Tylenol tablets)
• Do not take the full day’s dose at one time; space it out over
the course of the day
• Do not take acetaminophen for more than 10 days in a row
• Avoid drinking alcohol; this is important for people with
hepatitis whether or not they use acetaminophen
• People who do consume 2-3 alcoholic drinks per day
should not take more than half the usual recommended dose
of acetaminophen (2 grams within 24 hours)
• People with advanced liver fibrosis or cirrhosis should avoid
acetaminophen
• Write down how much acetaminophen you take, and when,
if you have trouble remembering
• Check the labels of all medications; small doses of
acetaminophen in combination remedies can add up to big
trouble.
http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/factsheets_pdf/Acetominophen.pdf
Excerpts from that article:
Acetaminophen for People with Hepatitis
What does all this mean for people with chronic hepatitis
B or C? Doctors often recommend acetaminophen to
relieve symptoms such as body aches and fever, which are
common side effects of interferon therapy. For most people,
acetaminophen is safe and effective. According to the FDA’s
Dr. John Senior, “It’s very clear the average dose for the
average person is very safe. But we are not all average
people.” For many individuals, acetaminophen is still a good
choice, especially considering that other over-the-counter
pain-relievers can cause problems of their own (such
as stomach bleeding with aspirin and nonsteroidal antiinflammatory
drugs).
Many HCV providers now recommend that their patients
with HCV take a somewhat lower dose than is generally
recommended for people with healthy livers. It is also
important that medical providers know what medications
their patients are using (including over-the-counter and
prescription medications) so that the medical provider
can best advise a person with hepatitis C on how much
acetaminophen is safe.
The following tips can help prevent acetaminophen-related
liver toxicity:
• Do not take more than the recommended dose of 4 grams
within a 24-hour period (for example, 12 regular strength or 8
extra strength Tylenol tablets)
• Do not take the full day’s dose at one time; space it out over
the course of the day
• Do not take acetaminophen for more than 10 days in a row
• Avoid drinking alcohol; this is important for people with
hepatitis whether or not they use acetaminophen
• People who do consume 2-3 alcoholic drinks per day
should not take more than half the usual recommended dose
of acetaminophen (2 grams within 24 hours)
• People with advanced liver fibrosis or cirrhosis should avoid
acetaminophen
• Write down how much acetaminophen you take, and when,
if you have trouble remembering
• Check the labels of all medications; small doses of
acetaminophen in combination remedies can add up to big
trouble.
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=16495
Question: Is acetaminophen (Tylenol) safe to use for "flu" symptoms caused by interferon in the treatment of hepatitis C? Isn't Tylenol toxic to the liver? Is Motrin safer in this situation?
Answer:
Tylenol (acetaminophen) is toxic to the liver in large doses (such as in suicidal attempts where a patient ingests large amounts, often more than 10 grams of the medication), and also in situations where a patient drinks alcohol heavily while taking high doses of Tylenol. Tylenol with alcohol ingestion can be toxic to the liver with lower doses of Tylenol than without the alcohol.
Otherwise, for the general population, both Tylenol and Motrin (ibuprofen, an NSAIDS) have low(<1%) liver toxicity at the regular, recommended doses. Moreover, both drugs can usually be used, in the recommended doses prescribed by a physician, reasonably safely for the "flu" symptoms caused by interferon used for treating chronic hepatitis C.
With advanced, complicated cirrhosis from hepatitis C, for which interferon is rarely used, all drugs, including these, must be prescribed with great caution, if at all. In addition, in these patients with advanced cirrhosis, NSAIDS, including Motrin, can worsen or even precipitate hepatorenal syndrome (a serious condition with both liver and kidney failure) and possibly induce intestinal bleeding.
Question: Is acetaminophen (Tylenol) safe to use for "flu" symptoms caused by interferon in the treatment of hepatitis C? Isn't Tylenol toxic to the liver? Is Motrin safer in this situation?
Answer:
Tylenol (acetaminophen) is toxic to the liver in large doses (such as in suicidal attempts where a patient ingests large amounts, often more than 10 grams of the medication), and also in situations where a patient drinks alcohol heavily while taking high doses of Tylenol. Tylenol with alcohol ingestion can be toxic to the liver with lower doses of Tylenol than without the alcohol.
Otherwise, for the general population, both Tylenol and Motrin (ibuprofen, an NSAIDS) have low(<1%) liver toxicity at the regular, recommended doses. Moreover, both drugs can usually be used, in the recommended doses prescribed by a physician, reasonably safely for the "flu" symptoms caused by interferon used for treating chronic hepatitis C.
With advanced, complicated cirrhosis from hepatitis C, for which interferon is rarely used, all drugs, including these, must be prescribed with great caution, if at all. In addition, in these patients with advanced cirrhosis, NSAIDS, including Motrin, can worsen or even precipitate hepatorenal syndrome (a serious condition with both liver and kidney failure) and possibly induce intestinal bleeding.
I would like to know if the person whom you claim you saw die of Tylenol poisoning was also an alcoholic.
You have confused reality with a hilarious, and I assumed now forgotten, mock TV variety show from the 70s called "Fernwood Tonight." It starred Martin Mull as the emcee. As you might recall, it was a spin-off of Mary Hartmann, Mary Hartmann.
On Fernwood Tonight, a scientist came on the show with a number of white mice dressed in small, polyester leisure suits. You're correct. All the mice seemed o.k., although embarrassed to be dressed so silly on national T.V. For me, it was a high point I remember to this day.
On Fernwood Tonight, a scientist came on the show with a number of white mice dressed in small, polyester leisure suits. You're correct. All the mice seemed o.k., although embarrassed to be dressed so silly on national T.V. For me, it was a high point I remember to this day.
you brought out an important aspect of why overdose occurs. Lots of folks, and kids walking around don't know their liver is compromised...and then the ignorance of parents plays in as well. My parents let me regulate my own aspirin consumtion by 8 yrs old.
How many parents really know how often their children consume an OTC.
How many HCV people go get a blood draw in hours (like the rabbits did) to see how much necrosis is really occuring as a direct result.
I think the obesity rate is linked directly to our sugar and fat consumption...specifically all the juices and pops keep the liver saturated in extra calories, then laid down as fat...without periods of hours for this fat store to rerelease, the permanent layers of fat..NASH occurs. So it is the continual snacking and beverage consumption that is making liver disease go from 20th place up to 5th place and climbing...
mb
How many parents really know how often their children consume an OTC.
How many HCV people go get a blood draw in hours (like the rabbits did) to see how much necrosis is really occuring as a direct result.
I think the obesity rate is linked directly to our sugar and fat consumption...specifically all the juices and pops keep the liver saturated in extra calories, then laid down as fat...without periods of hours for this fat store to rerelease, the permanent layers of fat..NASH occurs. So it is the continual snacking and beverage consumption that is making liver disease go from 20th place up to 5th place and climbing...
mb
Stayin' alive, stayin' alive.
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive.
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive
:o)
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive.
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive
:o)
I wonder if the played some Bee Gee's music for 70's rats in the polyester suits to see if they started dancin and jive talkin?
Tylenol is the painkiller of choice because aspirin thins blood (we already have platelet and clotting issues) and ibuprofen is similar to aspirin. NSAIDS killed my liver. Dosages that were enough to control back spasm for a few years lead me to cirrhosis. I know old people OD on tylenol regularly and kill their livers but I will stick with it.
I feel for the rabbits who had to be sacrificed, but to advance medicine and save lives, then I can understand and accept it. I do feel a little guilty having eaten rabbits in the past. But they were tasty.
I remember in the 70's when they did a test to see if Polyester effected people. They experimented in mice. I could be wrong, but I think they made them little suits out of Polyester for them to wear over a certain period of time. None of the mice died, which was a good thing.
I'm always confused as to the relevance of animal versus human testing. It seems the physiological makeup is quite different in the vague abstract aspect. The results are always equated to the possible human factor, but it's been proven wrong at times in the past.
My argument is to be presented now about Tylenol and the effect on the liver. My Hepatologist Dr. Gish said it was okay to take 3 fast acting Tylenols per day without affecting the liver. I now remain confused and am looking for other opinions. Poor rabbits...
Magnum
I remember in the 70's when they did a test to see if Polyester effected people. They experimented in mice. I could be wrong, but I think they made them little suits out of Polyester for them to wear over a certain period of time. None of the mice died, which was a good thing.
I'm always confused as to the relevance of animal versus human testing. It seems the physiological makeup is quite different in the vague abstract aspect. The results are always equated to the possible human factor, but it's been proven wrong at times in the past.
My argument is to be presented now about Tylenol and the effect on the liver. My Hepatologist Dr. Gish said it was okay to take 3 fast acting Tylenols per day without affecting the liver. I now remain confused and am looking for other opinions. Poor rabbits...
Magnum
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