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Ongoing discussion about H1N1 Vaccine
Well it seems that the newest fearmongering technique has been to take data from the CDC to a logical absurdity.
Why do we quake at the mere mention of Swine Flu?
First, I want to explain that this "Swine Flu" vaccine is not like the "Swine Flu vaccine of 1976. That vaccine was made by an entirely different method, and after the large number of neurologic complications seen in 1976 that method was abandoned and is not used anymore and was not used here. The swine Flu vaccine in 1976 caused a huge number of cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome and deaths and the immunization program's reputation in this country has never recovered EVEN THOUGH there has not been another such debacle. GB is rare with the seasonal flu vaccine.
What do they mean by a "strain" of the flu?
The term "swine" refers to the fact that H1N1 has genes from the kind of influenza commonly seen in pigs. Many species have influenza strains particular to them. We have heard recently about about dog flu. We all know about the scare with avian flu in the recent past. Typically flu strains do not jump species. When they do it can be particularly dangerous for the new species that they enter.
Our usual seasonal flu strains are mixtures of many of the same old genes that have been around for years. Thus, most of the population has some on-going resistance to the full effect of the flu. Each year scientists are in a rush to try to accurately predict which strain are going to get loose and cause the most disease. They begin studying and doing trials in the spring of every year. Every year the vaccine manufacturers have just a few months to come up with the vaccine for the prediction that year. H1N1 popped up out of nowhere in the early summer. Yes, the testing of this vaccine was rushed, but the process to make it is tried and true.
The swine flu is pretty new to the human species. Apparently it appeared a decade or so ago. So few of us have any resistance to it. Because of this more people will catch it and those that do may have a more severe disease. It is true that the amount of time that has been available to manufacture the H1N1 vaccine has been shorter this year, but only by a couple months. Yes, the testing for it has been more brief and not as thorough as for the usual seasonal flu. BUT, it is important to note that the method used for the production of the H1N1 is the same method that has been shown to be safe in the past couple decades. It is the method of producing the vaccine that is most linked to side effects. It would be highly inaccurate to associate this swine flu vaccine with that from 33 years ago.
The testing of the H1N1 vaccine is ONGOING. New testing has shown that pregnant women - a highly vulnerable group and one that has seen an unusual number of deaths - respond well to the vaccine and there has not been any remarkable incidence of side effects. However, the ongoing testing is showing that children need two doses to be fully protected. This will further decrease the number of doses that are available to the public, those at less risk of death from the infection.
Now a word of caution about a statistic that you will undoubtedly hear/read:
Now, recently the CDC announced that the rate of possible permanent harm or death from the H1N1 vaccine would be estimated to be 1 in every 100,000 shots. The procedure implemented to report serious reactions is the most comprehensive in history. They are tracking the living bejeebers out of this vaccine. So far, I have not seen any reports of serious reactions. There will be such reactions. All things that modulate the immune system wills hsow some deadly reactions if enough people get them. Viruses that are usually benign will kill some people. Vaccines act just like wild viruses. Over 16 million doses have been given out, so we might expect to hear that 160 people have suffered severe reactions. I have been watching and no such report has yet appeared.
Several of the vehemently anti-vaccination sites are running with the "data that the CDC is expecting to see 30,000 poeple maimed or killed by this vaccine." REALLY? I would like to see this quote if any of you can find the speech, press release or document that says this. If every single person in the US (approximately 307,000,000) is vaccinated would this number stand up? My math says that we would see only 3,000 such reactions. Is my math correct? If so, then someone is running amock with bad math and an agenda to boot.
I only caution you to make sure that people are quoting the CDC correctly. To my calculations, the number of serious reactions comes closer to 3,000 EVEN IF EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE US GETS A DOSE. Come on, people! In a good year less than 30% of people get vaccinated. So we might be looking at 1000 such severe reactions, not the 30,000 that I saw on at least a dozen sites this morning.
Is the H1N1 really over estimated or over-feared?
The H1N1 pandemic is still evolving. At first last summer it looked like the plague. Then as it hit the US it looked a lot milder. But, the whole thing is looking more sinister again. At the beginning of this year's flu season (August 31)proven (lab-veriofied) H1N1 killed 64 children in the time between August 31 and October 30. Another 10 were suspicious and definitely influenza, but they were not proven to be H1N1. So that is 74. H1N1 is the only strain that is currently actively causing disease in the US. Deaths to non-pediatric patients has been about 600 in that same time period. Yes, the math says that more than 20 people a day are dying from this in the US alone and it is just getting going.
It is well-known that the peak flu season runs November through about February or March. We have 700 deaths already so far and the really dangerous time has not even arrived. It seems almost every night we hear the latest number of healthy infants and young people who have died that day from H1N1. As a pediatrician I know that the flu season often overlaps with another big killer of infants, RSV. I literally shudder thinking about what the news is going to sound like in two months. (For perspective the CDC states that for EACH of the last 30 years, on average, there have been 34,000 flu-related deaths in the US. The numbers range from 20,000+ to 52,000 deaths depending on the severity of the flu season)
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm
God knows, and I believe, that everything possible is done to make our vaccines as safe as possible. A lot was learned from 1976 and has not been repeated. Do we hold this vaccine in fear and suspicion because of 1976? Or do we try to estimate what really threatens us and do the best we can to protect ourselves and those around us?
Again, someone please help me find out where the CDC supposedly announced that "the H1N1 vaccine will maim or kill 30,000 people."
I am amazed at the wide variety of numbers regarding all this that you can find on the net. I wrote this to help people answer some questions about the "swine" flu, what it means, how it is different, whether all "swine flu" vaccines were bad and what the risk appears to be from the vaccines versus the infections themselves.
This topic may have been done to pieces already, but it was on my mind this morning when I read what seemed to me to be blatant misinformation.
Quix
Why do we quake at the mere mention of Swine Flu?
First, I want to explain that this "Swine Flu" vaccine is not like the "Swine Flu vaccine of 1976. That vaccine was made by an entirely different method, and after the large number of neurologic complications seen in 1976 that method was abandoned and is not used anymore and was not used here. The swine Flu vaccine in 1976 caused a huge number of cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome and deaths and the immunization program's reputation in this country has never recovered EVEN THOUGH there has not been another such debacle. GB is rare with the seasonal flu vaccine.
What do they mean by a "strain" of the flu?
The term "swine" refers to the fact that H1N1 has genes from the kind of influenza commonly seen in pigs. Many species have influenza strains particular to them. We have heard recently about about dog flu. We all know about the scare with avian flu in the recent past. Typically flu strains do not jump species. When they do it can be particularly dangerous for the new species that they enter.
Our usual seasonal flu strains are mixtures of many of the same old genes that have been around for years. Thus, most of the population has some on-going resistance to the full effect of the flu. Each year scientists are in a rush to try to accurately predict which strain are going to get loose and cause the most disease. They begin studying and doing trials in the spring of every year. Every year the vaccine manufacturers have just a few months to come up with the vaccine for the prediction that year. H1N1 popped up out of nowhere in the early summer. Yes, the testing of this vaccine was rushed, but the process to make it is tried and true.
The swine flu is pretty new to the human species. Apparently it appeared a decade or so ago. So few of us have any resistance to it. Because of this more people will catch it and those that do may have a more severe disease. It is true that the amount of time that has been available to manufacture the H1N1 vaccine has been shorter this year, but only by a couple months. Yes, the testing for it has been more brief and not as thorough as for the usual seasonal flu. BUT, it is important to note that the method used for the production of the H1N1 is the same method that has been shown to be safe in the past couple decades. It is the method of producing the vaccine that is most linked to side effects. It would be highly inaccurate to associate this swine flu vaccine with that from 33 years ago.
The testing of the H1N1 vaccine is ONGOING. New testing has shown that pregnant women - a highly vulnerable group and one that has seen an unusual number of deaths - respond well to the vaccine and there has not been any remarkable incidence of side effects. However, the ongoing testing is showing that children need two doses to be fully protected. This will further decrease the number of doses that are available to the public, those at less risk of death from the infection.
Now a word of caution about a statistic that you will undoubtedly hear/read:
Now, recently the CDC announced that the rate of possible permanent harm or death from the H1N1 vaccine would be estimated to be 1 in every 100,000 shots. The procedure implemented to report serious reactions is the most comprehensive in history. They are tracking the living bejeebers out of this vaccine. So far, I have not seen any reports of serious reactions. There will be such reactions. All things that modulate the immune system wills hsow some deadly reactions if enough people get them. Viruses that are usually benign will kill some people. Vaccines act just like wild viruses. Over 16 million doses have been given out, so we might expect to hear that 160 people have suffered severe reactions. I have been watching and no such report has yet appeared.
Several of the vehemently anti-vaccination sites are running with the "data that the CDC is expecting to see 30,000 poeple maimed or killed by this vaccine." REALLY? I would like to see this quote if any of you can find the speech, press release or document that says this. If every single person in the US (approximately 307,000,000) is vaccinated would this number stand up? My math says that we would see only 3,000 such reactions. Is my math correct? If so, then someone is running amock with bad math and an agenda to boot.
I only caution you to make sure that people are quoting the CDC correctly. To my calculations, the number of serious reactions comes closer to 3,000 EVEN IF EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE US GETS A DOSE. Come on, people! In a good year less than 30% of people get vaccinated. So we might be looking at 1000 such severe reactions, not the 30,000 that I saw on at least a dozen sites this morning.
Is the H1N1 really over estimated or over-feared?
The H1N1 pandemic is still evolving. At first last summer it looked like the plague. Then as it hit the US it looked a lot milder. But, the whole thing is looking more sinister again. At the beginning of this year's flu season (August 31)proven (lab-veriofied) H1N1 killed 64 children in the time between August 31 and October 30. Another 10 were suspicious and definitely influenza, but they were not proven to be H1N1. So that is 74. H1N1 is the only strain that is currently actively causing disease in the US. Deaths to non-pediatric patients has been about 600 in that same time period. Yes, the math says that more than 20 people a day are dying from this in the US alone and it is just getting going.
It is well-known that the peak flu season runs November through about February or March. We have 700 deaths already so far and the really dangerous time has not even arrived. It seems almost every night we hear the latest number of healthy infants and young people who have died that day from H1N1. As a pediatrician I know that the flu season often overlaps with another big killer of infants, RSV. I literally shudder thinking about what the news is going to sound like in two months. (For perspective the CDC states that for EACH of the last 30 years, on average, there have been 34,000 flu-related deaths in the US. The numbers range from 20,000+ to 52,000 deaths depending on the severity of the flu season)
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm
God knows, and I believe, that everything possible is done to make our vaccines as safe as possible. A lot was learned from 1976 and has not been repeated. Do we hold this vaccine in fear and suspicion because of 1976? Or do we try to estimate what really threatens us and do the best we can to protect ourselves and those around us?
Again, someone please help me find out where the CDC supposedly announced that "the H1N1 vaccine will maim or kill 30,000 people."
I am amazed at the wide variety of numbers regarding all this that you can find on the net. I wrote this to help people answer some questions about the "swine" flu, what it means, how it is different, whether all "swine flu" vaccines were bad and what the risk appears to be from the vaccines versus the infections themselves.
This topic may have been done to pieces already, but it was on my mind this morning when I read what seemed to me to be blatant misinformation.
Quix
I have a relatively mild allergy to eggs, so I discussed whether I should get flu shots with my PCP. She told me that the benefits (for me) far outweigh any risks. My neurologist's office also stressed the importance of me getting my flu shots.
As I said before, as soon as I can find them, I'll get them.
The American Lung Association has a vaccine clinic finder web page, so you can try to find a flu vaccine clinic in your area. You just type in your zip code, and voila!
Kathy
As I said before, as soon as I can find them, I'll get them.
The American Lung Association has a vaccine clinic finder web page, so you can try to find a flu vaccine clinic in your area. You just type in your zip code, and voila!
Kathy
Platelet Gal, for people in a situation in which they are better off not getting vaccinated--always something to discuss with your *doctor*--the rest of us have yet another reason to do it. We confer herd immunity that protects people who cannot be vaccinated. And the vaccination guidelines clearly state that certain populations should NOT receive the vaccine or should NOT receive the nasal vaccine. I'm not sure how anyone can predict whether or not they can survive the flu, which ordinarily kills between 30000 and 50000 people in the US alone (I'm actually sure that no one can predict their response to the infection), but I'm absolutely sure that those death numbers are far far higher than the zero deaths attributable to seasonal flu vaccines.
Safety testing of this vaccine formulation has been longstanding and has clearly shown the overwhelming safety. The only thing different in this formulation is the virus, and that's different every year in the flu vax. If a person has gotten flu vaccines in the past without incident, this should be no different for the vast majority of people.
I have multiple problems involving autoimmunity, and I get the seasonal flu vaccine yearly with no problems, as do my three children and my husband. We have all gotten our seasonal flu vaccines this year, and my children have also received a first does of the nasal H1N1 with absolutely no problems whatsoever. Meanwhile, healthy children in our community have died from H1N1 infection.
Bio
Safety testing of this vaccine formulation has been longstanding and has clearly shown the overwhelming safety. The only thing different in this formulation is the virus, and that's different every year in the flu vax. If a person has gotten flu vaccines in the past without incident, this should be no different for the vast majority of people.
I have multiple problems involving autoimmunity, and I get the seasonal flu vaccine yearly with no problems, as do my three children and my husband. We have all gotten our seasonal flu vaccines this year, and my children have also received a first does of the nasal H1N1 with absolutely no problems whatsoever. Meanwhile, healthy children in our community have died from H1N1 infection.
Bio
I agree... we must all look at the ENTIRE picture to make an informed decision. We must also weigh our risks, etc. It is just heartbreaking though for people, such as myself, who cannot tolerate some vaccinations. I know one CFS expert says that if you think you can survive the flu, then don't get the flu shot.
It is an agonizing decision for someone like me and other chronically ill patients who cannot tolerate some vaccinations. It also makes me question the safety of these vaccinations. Honestly.. if I were healthy..... knowing what I know now, I would refuse all flu shots.
I am taking important steps to boost my immune system, which includes eliminating sugar completely from my diet. I may get the vaccination after ALL of the safety tests have been completed and I will be watching adverse reaction reports closely. One other report that came out today was that the German Medical Association is now warning that the Swine flu vaccine is "unsuitable" for patients suffering from environmental diseases and other chronic multi-system illnesses. (google and you will find the article) So I'm getting ALL of the information and carefully reviewing it, so that I can make an informed decision.
As my friend, who is an attorney with CFS, says, "My gut says to live with the consequences and so I will either live with or die with the consequences. Choices."
I wish everyone here the best and pray that none of us will catch either the regular flu or the H1N1 flu.
Wish that this vaccine were more widely available - I would be happy to take it to go with my seasonal vaccine which I have already received.
Where I work is an incubator of all things germy and especially this flu. College campuses and dormitories are breeding grounds for every contagious germ imagineable.
The H1N1 is rampant now on campus - students and faculty alike are coming down with it. My coworker went home sick with it this week too. Hand disinfectant and obsessive hand washing are the order of the day. Our emergency isolation houses are full and there is talk of taking over a much larger space in our recreation complex to house sick students.
Two weeks ago a local kindergarten child died from H1N1 - this past week a 26 year old woman died. Both of these people were healthy before becoming infected with the H1N1.
Am I overly worried about this disease? Not really, because I am old enough to put this in historical perspective with other pandemic waves. But I am smart enough to recognize that this virus has the potential to create havoc in an unusual proportion of numbers.
Influenza deaths occur every year - but normally those deaths are among the population that is already compromised with their health. That isn't the case with the H1N1.
The risk from vaccines is considerably less than the risk from contracting this flu or any other influenza.
It saddens me that we live in a time where there is such mistrust in our government and also the ease at which many will disseminate false information about the dangers of the vaccines.
I realize that there are several different themes in my words here - there are so many angles to this story that it is hard to focus on just one.
And Meg, your symptoms sound just like those of the people I know working through the H1N1. Just watch for the signs that the cough has turned into something more serious.
stay healthy everyone - don't forget to scrub your hands often!
L
Where I work is an incubator of all things germy and especially this flu. College campuses and dormitories are breeding grounds for every contagious germ imagineable.
The H1N1 is rampant now on campus - students and faculty alike are coming down with it. My coworker went home sick with it this week too. Hand disinfectant and obsessive hand washing are the order of the day. Our emergency isolation houses are full and there is talk of taking over a much larger space in our recreation complex to house sick students.
Two weeks ago a local kindergarten child died from H1N1 - this past week a 26 year old woman died. Both of these people were healthy before becoming infected with the H1N1.
Am I overly worried about this disease? Not really, because I am old enough to put this in historical perspective with other pandemic waves. But I am smart enough to recognize that this virus has the potential to create havoc in an unusual proportion of numbers.
Influenza deaths occur every year - but normally those deaths are among the population that is already compromised with their health. That isn't the case with the H1N1.
The risk from vaccines is considerably less than the risk from contracting this flu or any other influenza.
It saddens me that we live in a time where there is such mistrust in our government and also the ease at which many will disseminate false information about the dangers of the vaccines.
I realize that there are several different themes in my words here - there are so many angles to this story that it is hard to focus on just one.
And Meg, your symptoms sound just like those of the people I know working through the H1N1. Just watch for the signs that the cough has turned into something more serious.
stay healthy everyone - don't forget to scrub your hands often!
L
Thank you for this Quix.
I read up on the history of the 76 swine because it was started down the road from me all those yrs ago. It's an excellent history lesson if anyone is interested. Said (if I'm remembering correctly) that 43 mil people were vaccinated and when 500 were said to have GBS they pulled it. Of that 500 25 died.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no01/05-0965.htm
No disrespect to the families whom it undoubtedly affected - and who may be affected currently by vaccines and our future ones. Especially you Supermum who we cherish here on our forum. The viruses we are fighting to prevent are deadly.
Thank God for the Gardisil vaccine and those it's pretecting from the cancer causing virus. We've come a long way where womens health is concerned and this vaccine is just one proof of advancement. I've read recently where it will be given to men too - which I hope becomes more publicized.
Thank you Doc Q for the continuing education. Think we've become complacent where "flu" in general is concerned. This is very much a wake up call... wishing all health through this flu season.
-shell
I read up on the history of the 76 swine because it was started down the road from me all those yrs ago. It's an excellent history lesson if anyone is interested. Said (if I'm remembering correctly) that 43 mil people were vaccinated and when 500 were said to have GBS they pulled it. Of that 500 25 died.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no01/05-0965.htm
No disrespect to the families whom it undoubtedly affected - and who may be affected currently by vaccines and our future ones. Especially you Supermum who we cherish here on our forum. The viruses we are fighting to prevent are deadly.
Thank God for the Gardisil vaccine and those it's pretecting from the cancer causing virus. We've come a long way where womens health is concerned and this vaccine is just one proof of advancement. I've read recently where it will be given to men too - which I hope becomes more publicized.
Thank you Doc Q for the continuing education. Think we've become complacent where "flu" in general is concerned. This is very much a wake up call... wishing all health through this flu season.
-shell
Re: relapses. Yes, an immunization may cause relapses in those people who are susceptible. HOWEVER it is very shortsighted to avoid the vaccine for this reason. The infection itself is SO MUCH MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE A SEVERE RELAPSE THAN THE VACCINE FOR IT.
It is always someone's personal choice, but please look at the WHOLE picture first.
Meg - I'm so sorry you caught the flu. There are few worse feelings in the world. And, you're right. It matters little, when you feel so bad, which strain it is. The only strain of the flu that is actually active right now is H1N1, so that is far and away the most likely. If you are still within the window of 48 hours or so please call your doctor to get on an anti-viral. They can help so much.
Quix
It is always someone's personal choice, but please look at the WHOLE picture first.
Meg - I'm so sorry you caught the flu. There are few worse feelings in the world. And, you're right. It matters little, when you feel so bad, which strain it is. The only strain of the flu that is actually active right now is H1N1, so that is far and away the most likely. If you are still within the window of 48 hours or so please call your doctor to get on an anti-viral. They can help so much.
Quix
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