female "full release" by male massage therapist

[lonnie736]

why is it cheating to get a sexually arousing massage? the two people don't have a relationship, are not involved, and may never see each other again. if a woman gets the "full release" treatment, is that cheating? men would say no, women would say yes. women goto these parlors in new york city and other cities and have men provide them "happy endings." i would argue there's nothing wrong with this and that a husband wouldn't mind if his wife went to one of these establishments either.

[sweetpea03]

I quote Teko in that "Cheating is any action, with any person, place or thing that causes ill feelings and mistrust between two people who have formed a commitment to each other, period."

I would never get a full release treatment at a massage parlor or where ever they offer those things. My fiance would agree with me, that it is absolutely cheating and he would not want me going to such a place, as neither would I want him going to a place like that. If he wants stress relief, he can play a sport or some other kind of exercise, or come to me for a massage. He does not need to go outside of our relationship to get a 'happy ending'. That sort of place is inappropriate for a person in a relationship to be, as there is no reason for them to be there.  

[fission]

I concur! And I love that quote by Teko.

Cheating is usually cheating, if you need to ask if it's cheating.

[Soggymoggy]

I agree with Fission - if you have to ask, you probably know it's wrong.

How would you feel if your partner was visiting a prostitute? That's also simple sexual release provided by a person with no emotional attachment...

If a woman's partner is OK with this kind of massage (and by that I mean if it has been openly discussed and the partner actively SAYS "it is OK", not just that the partner has never been heard to express anti-massage sentiments) then that's fine - what a couple allows within the parameters of their own relationship is no one else's business. But it's unfair not to discuss it with a partner BEFORE doing it - you don't get to decide what your partner is OK with.

[AHP84]

I agree with Soggymoggy--what a couple allows within the confines of their own relationship after communicating with each other their relationship boundaries, then that's their business.
But for me personally, any type of "massage" like you describe would be cheating AND prostitution, since someone is getting paid to provide a sexual service. I don't want anyone but my husband giving me that type of personal, intimate pleasure, especially someone with whom I "don't have a relationship, [am] not involved, and may never see each other again." Eew!
Plus, I have no desire to pay for such a "service" that I could get for free, anytime, from my husband. And I would expect the same from him if the situation was reversed. I don't want some random "massage therapist" (or whatever they want to call themselves to avoid being called a prostitute) getting paid to touch my husband in a way that is meant for only me to do, because we both committed ourselves in that way only to each other in our marriage. Neither one of us would be okay with this and would absolutely consider it cheating.

[lonnie736]

all good replies, however sexual intercourse, two people completely naked and engaging in penetration is far more intimate and a worse case of "cheating" than a woman being stimulated to orgasm by the hand of a man. it's definitely differing degrees and my point is that the men who go to these "massage parlors" for such pleasure are not penetrating a woman, thus it's not quite as bad--needless to say, in a perfect world, we would all follow the words of Teko (with whom i am not familiar), but that quote pre-supposes that one can fully understand what each person in the relationship is feeling/thinking, which is impossible. to never "cause ill feelings or misstrust between two people" is really humanly impossible: the intentions of either party are never fully known, really. trust is given it's not demanded or needing explanation. the "female vs. male release" consideration is really of interest only because men (i would argue), in general, won't mind unless their spouse is actually involving themselves with the sexual organs of the "provider." this is not the case with women, who don't even want a hand (let alone a vagina) to come in contact with their spouses private parts. just food for thought. i agree that cheating is cheating, but there is room for compromise, and it's ineresting that men seemingly "compromise" in this area whereas women flat out don't want any part of a woman to touch their man's privates. i certainly would feel far more betrayed by my wife if she allowed someone to have sexual intercourse with her than by her simply superficially being brought to orgasm by a massage therapist. and if she's happier as a result, all the better.

[specialmom]

Under your theory Lonnie, seeing a prostitute would not be cheating.  I don't buy it for a second.  If my man needs release, he knows he can see me for that.  Or he can do it himself.  If you need someone else involved, you are cheating.  And I don't really think men are much different than women in this regard.  There is no male/female fight here.  Those that take their commitment seriously would see this as a violation of trust whether they are male or female.  

And if I needed a "stranger" to get to help me out . . . I'd describe myself as a person with an issue or two.  I'm in a relationship.  I don't need "outside" help.

But if someone is into open relationships and feel it is no big deal if their partner seeks sexual attention elsewhere, that is their business.  

[specialmom]

Oh, and by the way----------- cheating also means breaking the rules.  To many, engaging in any sexual act no matter where it falls on the scale of intimacy is breaking the rules of commitment in a relationship. I'd say MOST feel that way and I do as well.  

If someone establishes different rules within their relationship--------  and it is mutually agreed upon, this is what would define cheating in that particular relationship.  But a person who just happens to "let" this happen and tries to say it is not cheating . . . but their spouse has no idea about it . . . well, that is probably cheating.  No justification as to it being less intimate than a long term romance, it not being intercourse, etc. makes it different than cheating.  If you have to hide it---------- um, cheating has occurred.  

[TTinKKerBBell]

If You rob a bank of 5$ instead of 500$ or 5,000$ - have You robbed the bank?

have You broken the law??

are there consequences??  

If one wants a "superficial" orgasm one can go solo - what could be more "superficial" than that??  Once You've involved another person it is no longer "superficial"

[brice1967]

From a jerk who knows all about cheating.... even talking inappropriately with the other person hundreds of miles away is cheating.  You wouldn't have a problem walking into a bar and seeing your significant other being manually brought to orgasm by another woman?  Wow..... that is an open relationship.

[AHP84]

Yeah, my husband would never in a million years be totally fine and carefree with the idea of another man touching me in any sexual way, whether it involved hands, genetalia, or toys or whatever.
And yes, I don't want any part of another woman touching my husband's privates, ever.

It all really comes down to what each individual couple has communicated to each other of the boundaries of their personal relationship. There is no standard "one size fits all"--it should be okay if it's this way vs. that way, because the situation is acted out in a certain fashion. Some couples may be okay with that, others (probably most) will not.

[teko]

How is it not cheating? If there is nothing sacred between two people in a committed relationship, then why bother committing in the first place?  I stand by my original remarks.

Cheating is any action, with any person, place or thing that causes ill feelings and mistrust between two people who have formed a commitment to each other, period."

[el_em_en_oh]

So if a man watches porn, masturbates to orgasm, and his wife doesn't like the fact that he does this... is it considered cheating?

Not saying I agree or disagree, but it's an interesting topic.

[brice1967]

I'd say watching porn and masturbating is not cheating if.... if your significant other does not object.  If the wife says she's against it and he does it it will obviously cause some waves but with all things considered.... the husband was by himself.

[el_em_en_oh]

Ergo, having an orgasm without the specific "consent"  (or 'okay') from your partner, is considered cheating, if I'm reading the above comments correctly. If my partner doesn't like me 'bringing myself off' or watching porn, for the same effect, then in essence, I'm a cheater.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[el_em_en_oh]

By the same rational, if I fantasize about another woman while having intercourse with my wife, am I cheating?

If that's the case, then I'm skrewed, because Uma Thurman, Jennifer Anniston & I have had many a three-some in my head, while I've been in bed with my wife. And I dare say my wife has done the same thing with whomever is on her 'top-ten list'.

[sweetpea03]

You have gone from physical cheating(a person having their hands on your spouse's genitals) to emotional cheating(fantasizing about someone else) which are 2 different things. Both can be harmful to a relationship and the boundaries of a couple's relationship should be discussed. Some may be ok with fantasizing about others, watching porn, etc, while others may not be. That is up to the couple. The strict definition of cheating, is not black and white for everyone as it would depend on what they are comfortable with.  

[RockRose]

This keeps coming up on this board,  periodically.  I can't tell if it's the same exact poster keeping asking this question.

I've never,  ever in my life heard of a woman going into a massage parlor and asking to be sexually touched.  Same reason there aren't any "women's clubs" that offer nude male dancing.  (There are men's clubs that occasionally have "lady's night" where women go with other women for a bachellorette party or some other lark,  once or twice in a lifetime.  There aren't businesses that cater full time to women watching nude men.  Fact is,  women don't want to do this).  Women also don't want to go in and pay for a shoulder and neck and feet massage and have some guy grope them.

And I fully believe that if there WAS such a woman who wanted that,  I'm sure her husband wouldn't think that was just fine.

[specialmom]

El, I often agree with you but I think you are making a big stretch to go from watching porn and masterbating to going to an establishment and having the woman cause you to "release" as the poster says.  Not sure how you are trying to make those into similar things-----------  apples and oranges and very different.  

If your wife went for a massage and the man included sexual gratification into the massage, you would think this was the same as your wife masterbating alone?  The man "touching" her????  The man possibly being aroused himself doing it?  

I don't get your correlation between these two things at all.  Another person touching my husband crosses a boundary.  But that is how we work our marriage.  If I was alright with it---------- then he wouldn't have to lie about it and it wouldn't be cheating.  But since I'm not alright with it, then it breaks the rules of our marriage.  He wouldn't be alright with it either.  It would definately be cheating in our marriage with the way we have things set up.

Rockrose, you are right.  We've had this post before.  And yeah, I want a massage therapist to work on my neck and my feet as I've got my husband for the parts in the middle.  Not interested in some stranger going "there".  

[el_em_en_oh]

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with what the OP said, or with the whole cheating/not-cheating thing... I just think it's an interesting discussion point.

Personally, I think that if you know in your heart, and "feel" that what you're doing is wrong (whether you're simply talking to a member of the opposite sex, or otherwise, or actually "doing the deed") then it's cheating.

You know in your heart when you're doing something wrong, so I think cheating comes in many forms. Personally I don't think that masturbating to porn is cheating, and neither does my wife. Neither of us thinks that fantasizing about others while we're together is cheating, so it's all good. Talking to members of the opposite sex is okay, as long as the conversations are within the bounds of we both know is right & wrong.

You know if you're cheating or not, plain & simple.

[brice1967]

On a side note completely concerning Uma Thurman.  When I was in the bar business... Uma Thurman and Greta Gaines (Olympic skier and wild woman) were hanging out in the club for a week or so.  A couple of nights after I met them both... the wife and I go to dinner in one of the towns nicest places.  As we walk in Uma Thurman and Grata Gaines both said "HI Brice"...... my wife looks at them then looked at me with a puzzled look.  She then said..."That's Uma Thurman!"  I then replied "Yup and her friend Greta".  

Apparently my wife was unfamiliar with "my kind of celebrity" and said.... "How does Uma Thurman and Greta Gaines know you?".  I just chuckled and said "This is me Baby".  LOL

P.S.  Uma shook my hand when I introduced myself.... didn't wash the thing for 2 weeks!

[el_em_en_oh]

The question is... did Uma wash HER hand immediately after shaking YOUR hand!

[lonnie736]

what i love about this subject is that it points out the flaws in relationships, and the insecurities based upon purely "physical," "superficial," conditions--keep in mind, this is all touching one or another "physically," nothing "metaphysical" about it, thus all "lower pleasures," it's the higher pleasures we, as a species, are so famous for. yet humans get so bent out of shape about these lower pleasure issues (especially women, it appears, who are, arguably more "emotive," or "non-physical" than men--which poses a paradox. suddenly women are more motivated by physical occurances than men)...this behavior is all a byproduct of our need to procreate and yet we ascribe so much more, more internal "emotional" feelings, and can feel abandoned by--or cheated upon by--others when we violate an assumption that those procreative urges ought to be preserved for one person or another. very interesting. the common denominator is pleasure/nature/instinct, not distrust or abuse of a contract between two people. it's really never intended to hurt anyone yet the other one feels somehow wronged--I can't quite put a finger on why this is....seemingly, the only real instance of where the line justifiably should be drawn is re: true sexual intercourse, unless (as others have posited) predetermined openness has been agreed to between both parties. the rest is relative and should be considered with conditions unlike strict adherence to a rule, as in actual intercourse. just my thoughts. ;)

[Jaybay]

ROFL!  Women are more "non-physical" than men?  Son, you have a lot to learn...

[specialmom]

Here is my question Lonnie------------  do you work in a massage therapy office?  Or do you frequent one?  As in-------- do you give it or take it?  

I'm sorry if my husband had physical contact with another woman, it would be cheating in our marriage.  Intercourse is not the only thing that qualifies.  Regardless if it is a male or female.  My husband feels the same.