tell me, did you experience any relief from the anaprox family of drugs, or even from aspirin? The reason I ask is that there's a new, very popular NSAID (anaprox family) of drug which offers the benefits of the anti-imflamatories like anaprox, but doesn't harm the stomach. It's called Celebrex. It's a Cox-2 inhibitor. They're are others coming out just like Celebrex, but that's the one that's available now. Out of curiosity, have you ever tried taking Enteric-coated asprin, like Ecotrin for the pain? Enteric asprin passes through your stomach before it gets broken down and this seems to convey all the benefits of asprin (which are considerable) without damaging your stomach. Celebrex is prescription only and, you guessed it, pretty expensive. It wouldn't cost you much to try the enteric asprin. Hope that helps.

Have you ever heard of MOBIC?  I think it may be a new NSAID?   I believe this is very expensive also..And by the way, Yhanks for your words in the other thread...You are the sunshine on a snowy day like to day...Oops  forgot, California? Love to all  cindi

Celebrex was worthless.  As a pain killer, it is less effective
than tylenol.  This is based on both personal experience,
family experience (my brother is in a lot more pain than me,
and had the worst year of his life on Celebrex), and finally,
via a Celebrex sales slime.  This person is related via
marraige to me, and told us that she was aware of the
almost valueless pain management equation concerning Celebrex,
but it was her job to push it to Doctors.  Scum.

I am aware of the Cox/2 issues, and I was under the impression
that Viox was the most effective of the family.  Celebrex was
an accidental discovery, Viox was engineered after they
found out about it.

The key issue with the COX 1 VS 2 is that NSAIDS in general
inhibit both, and Celebrex and Viox do (mostly) just 2. COX
1 is used by the stomach lining to move mucas around,
protecting it, which means that when it gets inhibited ulcers
start because your stomach acid gets to the lining.  


Concerning ecotrin (and other coated asprins), they STILL
inhibit COX 1, that just don't directly damage your lining
since they dissolve in the intestines.  Since the COX 1 is
still inihibited, your own stomach acid can cause an ulcer
after extended use, you just won't realize it is connected to
the ecotrin since you didn't spit up blood when you ate it.

As far as cost, while I am not wealthly, I am well paid
as a programmer, and have a prescription plan, so it
should not enter into the picture.

Thanks for trying.

Barry

According to this:
http://www.mobictablet.com/mobictabs7-5-15mg.htm

There are serious stomach bleeding issues associated
with this drug.  It's an old line NSAID with COX 1
inhibition.

Oh well.

Barry

Having struggled with addiction during my youth, I certainly understand your reluctance to experiment with "real" narcotics.  It is possible that your present potential for addiction is far less than you believe it to be.  The Twelve Step Self Help programs, while they do often work and frequently offer a solution where none could be found before, unfortunately leave one with the impression that there is no possibility for fundamental change.  This is probably true for ETOH and likely also for the hard narcotics like opium and heroin which are taken without medical supervision but perhaps less so for such drugs as Vicodin and Percocet; certainly far less for Darvon.  Could you take theraputic ammounts of Hydrocodone or Codeine at this point without becoming an addict again? Probably so.  Should you?  Probably not if you're worried about it.  We must all bear in mind, however, that there really are NO viable alternatives to narcotics for effective long term pain control.  That said, have you heard of a drug called Talwin-Nx.  This is a compound of Pentazocine and Naloxone.  I don't know much about this combination except that it is specified for use by patients with a history of drug dependence.  Perhaps someone else in this excellent forum might have more information.  You are certainly not the only one caught between this particular devil and the deep blue sea.

> Pentazocine and Naloxone.
>    by patients with a history of drug dependence

Wicked stuff.

Pentazocine is a real pain killer, not a real "narcotic", ie:
opoid, but will real CNS depressant and painkiller affects.
Also, highly addictive.

Naloxone is a narcotic antagonist.  This means is binds
to the narcotic receptors in your nerves without stimulating
the narcotic effect, thereby blocking heroin, morphine, or
any real narcotic from working.  This only happens when you
inject it, and it is in this formulation to keep addicts
from injecting it.

When my shoulder was dislocated and they gave me a real painkiller  before shoving it back in, I was HAPPY.  I was
so happy, I  annoyed the staff, so they gave me this (I
assume), which brought me down in about 10 seconds.  Bummer.

I can't accept any drugs that'll make me stupid.  As a
computer programmer, I live by my wits.

Also, while Vicodan is formulated for people like me, it's
not for any real useful reason.  It still get's me high,
it just has in instant tolerance, which forces you to
double and quadruple dose for the same affect.  Worthless
for long term pain.

Percodan/cet, on the other hand, is FUN (or was).  Not for
me any more.

And I have no idea why people consider Darvon a pain killer.
I seem to recall some studies showing the placebo as better.

Oh well

Thanks anyway

What an appropriate handle. For someone in enough pain to write this forum, you have aggressively swept every solution right off the table. Every one of them has something you find totally unacceptable. I'm not sure what you were expecting to find. Opiates are opiates. They all ask a price for the relief they afford. You either pay the price or suffer in silence. You may have to compromise in order to find a solution.

A totally benign drug that preserves complete mental clarity with zero addictive potential sounds like something from a science fiction novel.

> I'm not sure what you were
>    expecting to find.

Dunno.

That's the point of asking.

Since I've stopped watching the medical journals,
may a new non-bleeding NSAID like Viox but with
far better pain killing effects has shown up
without me noticing.

I apologize if I "sweep" away everything, but
I accept that I will be in pain if I wish to
continue my career, and I will be in the streets
destitute if I take the easy pain relief way out.

If any of the things I've said were wrong, please
let me know.  I may be totally full of ****, but
until someone sets me straight, I won't know.

Maybe I was hoping for somebody to say good things
about Ultram in the context of painkilling without
addiction, since this seems to be the best available
with the lowest mind  altering aspect, but it didn't
happen.

Thanks for trying.

Please don't take this as a criticism but you do honestly have me confused.  Why are you looking for someone to say something; in this case something good about Ultram?  Wouldn't you be better served seeking the truth?  Anyway, the jury seems to be out on Ultram.  I have used it for knee pain post-op and it does work, at least in my case.  I did not feel any significant euphoria ar other change in mentation.  I will admit that I was not on the drug long enough to know anything about it's addictive potential but it did not make me feel like I wanted to get high on stronger stuff and I didn't finish the bottle which I ALWAYS do with percocets.  Ah but the stories; horror stories I have heard.  There is a pretty good forum dedicated to Ultram on the Rx Board.  If you type just that, Rx Board, into a search engine I think you can find it.  If not, let me know here and I will look myself and get back to you

Being a recovering addict I had a doc who felt "comfortable" giving me ultram....Bad move,  While I did not really get a buzz on them I had been taking about 8-10 a day and the withdrawals were comparable with my opiate withdrawals.  my sister, (not an addict) was taking about 8 a day and had a helluva time getting off of them,.Same situation with several other Non addict freinds of mine.  I understand that Ultram will soon become if not already become a controlled substance.  It apparantly binds to the opiate receptors just like the opiates.  I have also heard "rumors" they were thinking about taking it off the market?  hope that helps a little bit concerning ultram.     cindi

Well Broom,
     I agree with everyone else.  It seems you already read alot about this stuff, I think most of us on this board know enough about painkillers and pills to be a damn Pharmacist, or even a Doctor.  Have you tried Dolobid?  Naproxen?  Dolobid worked for me as an NSAID but it tore my stomach up.  I too am in computers, I develop websites and am always on the computer.  I don't have anything wrong with my arms, hands or fingers but I do know there is a new C+ program in development, it uses voice recognition and commands.  Therefore long boring scripting and useless Unix commands Via:Typing, will hopefully be null and void one day.  I know it doesn't help now but, Oh well...Se'La Vi'

Take Care
Chad b

> Have you tried Dolobid? Naproxen?

Dolobid - no, Naproxen - yes, stomach pain.

My brother (who I commute with) aready went
through the bleeding ulcer associated with
various NSAIDs, so I'm real sensitive to the
issue.

Now he's on a mix of Viox and Ultram, but he
doesn't have the same drug history as me so Ultram
is "safe".

> it uses voice recognition and commands.

Can't use them.  I'm a Perl/SQL/Unix geek.  They
are for dictation and canned commands.  Those of use
who CREATE the commands (making up the words as you
go, variable names, etc) confuse the hell out of them.

> Therefore long boring scripting and useless Unix
> commands Via:Typing, will hopefully be null and void
> one day.

I hope not.  I script someone once, and it'll run
forever.  And I love doing it, so I'll put more
of an effort into keeping it that way.

If the tendenitis developed in the course of your employment,I think the best alternative pain killer is to stop doing the thing that is causing the pain,see your doctor,get a medical certificate and have a `long` PAID break,if you do not get better after the break go on Workers compensation.
Do not use Ultram as it is addictive,otherwise it would be an OTC drug,they cannot have it both ways,just aren`t that stupid are we?.
If you had the tendenitis before getting the job,you have big dilemma.If you take painkiller it does not matter whether it is addictive or not,you will seriously exacerbate your medical condition.Get a referal from your doctor for a specialist in that area(tendenitis).May need surgery soon.Your future is in your hands(arms).

Since my daughter is in recovery I have also asked the same question as Broom here in the past about non-addictive pain killers for addicts. The story is the same. I think there is a difference though with chronic pain and a short term pain, such as a post op temporary pain. I am wondering then about this highly sought after buprenorphine ( not yet fully approved here for some uses)... would it be good for either chronic pain or short term pain for addicts ????

Next question... what is this business about THIQ... acronym for a long name I cannot pronounce. I have heard that this "chemical" is present when pain is present and "directs" the opiate to work on the pain and not the "pleasure center"... supposedly this makes the short term use of narcotics ok for an addict..... ( sounds like a risk to me)... can you explain this to me ??? Thanks very much. Love, Brighty

Hi Brighty,  I know this question was sent to spook but i had to butt in for a minute. I think I may have said this in some other post but Buprenorphine was the first drug I injected into my body, followed by stadol and Nubain which then led me to the demerol, morphine etc.  I did get a "high" from the bup but apparently not enough because I left that drug for other.  it was readily available.  We did not keep it locked up in the Narc cabinet at work so I did not have to sign for it as I did with other drugs.  One thing I would like to add it that when I would run out of my stash like on my weekends off etc. I always had the Bup to cover me until I could get back to work.  It did hold off any withdrawal symptoms.  I too, am curious about the THIQ.  I do remebmer hearing about that chemical in early early detox so I was not really listening I guess. I thought they said that it is a chemical that addicts have more of as opposed to non-addicts. Oh, ****  I don't remember.   Spook,  Oh Spook are you out there?     Ok Brighty, Thank you for letting me butt in.     Love cindi

Thanks for your input which I did miss in another post... it's really hard finding things here, the threads are so long. I do realize that the bup has dangers since it is both antagonist and agonist. And it is very enlightening to hear you got started with it as I have never heard anyone else have that experience..... although you may not be the only one. I guess that nurses and doctors have other availabilities the average person does not !! Just wondering... why did you choose the bup in the first place ?? Figured it was safe ??  

I guess my question is more regarding the person who is already an addict and does not want to relapse... there is very little out there in the way of pain killers for them.... so I am wondering if the bup is a bit of a help in that I have heard it's long acting and not producing a high on a normal dose. (??)Basically my question is trying to find the lesser of the evils !!!  I heard someone say that there are more people in France on buprenorphine than on methadone.... so I am wondering if it would be a bette maintenance drug than methadone since I have read that it's a much easier drug to wean off than most other narcotics. Like your mom and Maria's mom I am always looking for information because I do not want to ever see my child go through this again... and sooner or later most of us need surgery or pain relief. I am very appreciative of your input because it makes me realize that the bup is not something to consider safe by any means and we should not start thinking of it that way. Take care and I hope you have a better day today.... you are in my prayers. Love, Brighty

I am a recovering alcoholic(03/80) and have been on opiates for 2 years for severe injury to cervical vertibra. Have recently had surgery for this and am in search of information on detoxing from these pain meds. Am currently using Duragesic patch 75 every 48 hours, and oxir 5 mg for breakthrough pain. Am 2 weeks post op and find I still have some pain. Am trying to stretch the time between patch changes by 24 hours, and am having some results. I do require oxir on occasion. NSAID's cause severe epigastric pain and swelling of my ankles. Am attempting cerebrex and using tylenol every 6 hours. I am very frightened of withdrawal as I saw a family member detox from methadone and he went through hell and almost landed in a nursing home, he was 32 years old.
Am seeing my pain doctor next week and want to be off drugs soon if not NOW, and know a gradual detox is possible but am so afraid. Would Bupren be of help, any one else gone down this path and have any insights.
maryann

I really don't know what to say about Bup being safe for addicts.  I am at a loss.  To be very honest with you I choose BUP atwork because I was having alot of trouble sleeping  (I worked nights) and I was going through a really dark period in my life.  I needed to sleep.  I read that it can cause euphoria  and or Drowsiness.  It worked.  Then The effects were not as good as they were so I went on to other things.   Finding that if I mixed Demerol and Nembutal that I could sleep for 14 hours straight, (blackout followed by coma)  and then I did keep the stash of BUP at my house (I called it my first aid kit) in case I would run out of demerol and start going through withdrawals.  I know your fears of seeing your daughter go back to using.  I live with the fear that my kids will end up addicts.  If this disease is hereditary then they are in double Jeopardy.  I don't know if I could take what I put my mom through and what your daughter has put you through.  God bless you   Love to all Cindi

I just wanted to drop a few lines to let you know how much I appreciated your prayers and emails.  There is much power in prayer.  I'm still very weak, and weary of the road ahead, but w/ friends like you....I know I'll be o.k.  I know there will be severe withdrawals coming off of the meds....So yall just get ready for my never ending questions. lol.....Stay in touch.
Love Ya!
Annie

Boy,  We sure did miss you.  How r u feeling?  it's nice to have you back with us and I am still praying for you....Just becuase your surgery is over doesn't mean you don't need prayers anymore.  Just take it slow,  Don't get overly tired and Take your pain medicine..Being painfree will help your recovery process....PS  Did they tell you to cough and deep breath?  Keep your little lungs in shape so do your exercises  LOL   Hopefully you have someone there to help you....Keep in touch when you are feeling up to it....Have not heard a whole lot from spook but when we do we know it   He's pretty ok...smart as anything    LOL   Love cindi

God bless you !! Welcome back.... and take it easy !! Love, Brighty

Buprenorphine trials(IV)take home dose,self administer, were carried out here in Perth Western Australia,by a Medical Doctor(15 or more years ago) who thought it may be a good idea,He ended up up with cues of people leading into the streets,All of them Opioid Addicts and all of them either abusing,selling,or failing to taper off the Buprenorphine.It is an Opioid mixed agonist/antagonist,and a reasonable (better than Codeine) painkiller and has abuse potential.It is apparently quite an antideppresant also.
In the end(about 2 years later) the project? was deemed a failure and shut down by the Health Dept,however,if used appropriately(sublingual) and with gradual taper and close personal councilling/obsevation,it would make an excellent step down from a strong Opioid dependence,but not in any way cure the Addiction component,for that you need specialized Psychiatric intervention and currently we have a lack of suitably trained professionals,and NO MONEY...
As far as Terahydroisoquinoline(THIQ) goes,it is present in the brains of alcoholics to a much larger degree than Normals(due to genetic reasons) and is the cause of their increased Euphoria from alcohol and subsequent alcoholism.It participates in the same Dopamine Euphoria regulation sytems that Opioids are ligands to however I am not familiar with any involvement of it in the Opioid Euphoric state.Any new knowledge or references would be appreciated.

by the same token, is there a genetic predisposition to opiate addiction? I have written about my first exposure to an opiate (a hydrocodone-based cough syryp) sometime back on this forum. I will repeat myself only so far as to say that it was the closest things to a religious/mystical experience I have ever had -- an experience I obviously never got over. Thirty years of opiate addiction has cost me a lot. I'd like to know if, like the alcoholic, I was likewise "doomed" by genetic inheritance.

Currently Many Scientists believe that Some people not only have exquisite sensitivity to Opioid Euphoria,but also have Faulty or deficient Endorphin Systems leading to increased NEED states and modified responses to stress,etc.
They believe that Genetics underscores these Conditions,but have not found any Neurological or Biochemical evidence to Support this as far as I know.(I am going to look at some of the latest research papers)
N.b Practically Invariable ones first experience to Opioids produces Dysphoria not euphoria.So you may be onto something here.