I'm sorry that YOU aren't strong enough to have pills around and NOT take them.

[beachtowel]

No addict is strong enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry but to hear I stopped taking 30 pills a day and have now tapered to 15 a day has nothing to do with recovery.

Recovery is about ZERO pills, its about DETOX, its about SUPPORT,
to Sustain it.

NA a meetings are essential to recovery, it just isn't about not taking drugs. That is only half the battle, when you quit you still have a lot of work to do..........

Sorry if I offended anyone, but this tapering thing is getting old..............

[cforster]

That needed to be said......now watch the posts fly!  Here comes some comments.

My name is Chad, I'm an addict....and my problem is ME!

Its not the drugs that are the problem, it the person taking them to hide from everything.  

DETOX----there is no magic answer for this, and yes, it sucks.  But its necessary.

Let your mind clear in this process and then start working on the problem......yourself.  Drug use is only a symptom.  Get to the root of the problem.


That recovery.

[minnie11]

So what exactly do you mean by that? that it is ridiculous to taper, even thogh many doctors recommend this method? And what about all those people who succeed - like Fladdict whose progress we have followed during the past months? Unless I have misunderstood something I am quite surprised, because your posts have always struck me as very informative and supportive.

I actually don't find it supportive to dismiss tapering just like that, and yes there are a lot of us out here struggling, but that is what this forum is for, support: I hope that we will all keep that in mind when we are all/have all been in the same situation.
Good luck to everyone.
Minnie
  

[DAnthrope]

Atta boy - you preach the "MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY" sermon a few more times.
It never gets old.

"No addict strong enough"

You just can't help yourself can you?
Because YOU aren't strong enough, then NOBODY can be!
Please stop, people have to be laughing their asses off at you now.

"NA is essential to recovery"

For you, perhaps.  I guess what's good for you MUST be good for everyone!
Sounds kinda like one country invading another country because their religious beliefs are different.

You're a joke.
Doing more harm than good with your intolerance and preaching.
The world has seen enough of you preachers and the negativity you breed.

GOOD PEOPLE come here and cannot do c/t, perhaps they are financially unable to take time off work.  Tapering allows them to hold off w/d's whether you agree with it or not.

And for EVERY post I see from you calling them failures, I will post mine offering them inspiration and encouragement.  EVERY ONE.

Keep posting, your ignorance is rather plain for all to see.

For my next post, I'll be offering some independent statistical research about your beloved NA(and AA) and just how "effective" or not they really are.

/D

[HowtheHeck]

My personal feeling is your probably right on the money BT.  However, let's not forget that every body is different and what works for one  may not work for another...right away.  I do believe that CT is the only real way of kicking the habit and that happens when one is SERIOUS about stopping.  I also believe that tapering is yet another way for an addict to come to the realization that CT is inevitable...it just takes some a little longer to get there.

IMO, tapering pills is the equivalent of a smoker saying they are going to quit smoking in 2 months.  When one is serious about quitting it is immediate.

[DAnthrope]

Many here like beach are supportive and informative - AS LONG AS YOU SHARE THEIR BELIEFS.

Others, like bowhunter and scottquit, are supportive EVEN IF they know they disagree with you.

Funny - where beach dismisses tapering (and calls taperers failures),
and while I taper myself,
I do NOT dismiss going c/t!!!
In fact if I could have, I would have!!!

There is not ONE right way.
I don't dismiss that beach and NA -CAN- and -DO- work for some.
For others, there are OTHER methods that work JUST AS WELL.

Interesting to note that contrast ;-) LOL

Peace
/D

[DAnthrope]

Let's get started right away...

I'm going to post references - and encourage - and beg - that you NOT believe them, just follow your nose to what smells worst and you can find the FACTS for yourself.  Don't believe someone, or anything you read, but the facts are there, the scientific studies are there.  Just go read them for yourselves!

Here's the first of many:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

[addictedtoloratab]

I think everybody gets to recovery in there own way, I think its great that you are clean, but, wow, thats kind of harsh.  My sponser supports me as I feel a sponser should do, she says when you are ready your ready.  I also dont think NA is for everyone.  Sorry, I dont.  I think thats what works for you and for some people it does, but, it is very controversial.   Some people are trying really hard to taper to quit and your response should be supportive if you are a sponser.. I know your probably not going to like this, but, this is how I feel... I always look forward to your post, but, I do not agree with this one,,,Peace

[texasrebecca]

If I was to relapse and told you guys on here, that I did, and you were to tell me, that I was weak and didn't want to be clean bad enough, then I would never post here again! I come here for support. If I wanted my fellow addicts to beat me down because of a mistake or a moment of weakness, then I would have shared my addiction with my family, or gone to rehab for it. Instead, I come here because of the positive way ya'll think, and the uplifting I get. I would NOT need ANOTHER lecture from anyone telling me that I was too weak or that I didn't want it bad enough! I like the way things are done around here just fine. THIS way gives me HOPE for my addiction, and if I screw up, I feel like I CAN share it with all of you without being judged. Judging is what the rest of the world does already, so can we on here, leave the judging to the rest of the world, and just support each other? I'm pretty sure this is what keeps most people coming back!

[DAnthrope]

Skip to page 46, "The efficacy of NA"

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=aaTZul-IK1cC&oi=fnd&pg=PP4&sig=dbLuR3xabmpDd6lg0NFJX9GUdA8&dq=NA+AA+effective+statistics+addiction#PPA46,M1


Perhaps beach can post some NA statics from an INDEPENDENT source, which is scientific and unbiased.


/D

[tink1517]

please read my post above relating to this whole situation... i'll check in later today, i'm off to spend time w/y girls,


Tink

[DAnthrope]

Lots of great information here - which speaks specifically to my posts about the negative thinking that "I have no power over the drug"

Quoted:
"Thousands of AA and NA members are clean and sober today. More often than not, however, this plan backfires; many addicts readily accept the part about being hopeless but reject the likelihood of magical help from above. Here is where the Twelve Steps can do more harm than good: people walk out more convinced than ever that they will never change."


http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/freedom.htm



/D

[girlybuff]

I wish you would take the time to read what I wrote.
it's not magical help from above.  It's believing insomething when all belief in yourself has previously failed.
Many people hang onto this notion because they cannot do it alone.
Like I said, the REAL addict as described in the BIg Book is beyond Human Aid!!
If you do not fall into this category and do not need to keep a conscious contact with a HIgher Power in order to remain sober, I guess you don't fall into that category.
But after being around AA for 5 years and all my life really with myf ather in recovery and the dealings with my inability to remain connected with the program, I DO see that when that contact fails for most, the relapse begins.
It begins with thoughts, the actual act of relapsing is the LAST part to take place.
I saw it with myself and everyone I've encountered in program.
i do stress what I said before... Recovery is not about abstinence it's about practicing those priciples in ALL OUR AFFAIRS..
You don't have to have addict behavior and be using!
Good luck!  

[DAnthrope]

I think the key is - you can't find your strength to do this battle when you're beating yourself down and when OTHERS are beating you down.

Many of us here try to help you find your own inner strength.

But realize, that is NOT what beachtowel and NA want!!!

Read rule #1 - YOU HAVE NO POWER - read no further.  

They NEED to beat you down in order for you to SURRENDER YOUR POWER over to a deity, and to THEM.  They preach, as beachtowel himself says right above(!!!) that "NA is essential to recovery".  It's OUR way or YOU ARE A FAILURE.

It's in their own words, in HIS own words - you are NOTHING without them. They'll continue to BEAT YOU DOWN until you either leave here or join them.

And they'll continue to attack ANYONE who disagrees, regardless of whether or not OTHERS are being helped by them.  

I'm pretty sure people have been helped by me in the past 11 days.
And yet - beach cannot help but attack me.

Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it?

Peace
/D

[texasrebecca]

YOU and Tink have helped me more than anyone.  You have given me the courage to march forth and win this battle!  Just wanted you to know that.  I would not be doing as well as I am (which is still not really good, but at least its something) without your love and support ( I really feel it coming through the computer and into my fingertips) And it gives me hope!  So thanks, you have helped, more than you will ever know!

[addictedtoloratab]

I agree.  I have seen many people fail with NA, some people do succeed.  I think its a option and I dont think thats the only way.  Your post have helped me in the past and as long as we stay positive for each other we can all beat this in our own time frame and in our own way.  I have read the orange papers before and I think that it was a awesome post.. Hugs, G

[pgnscared]

I am not one to get involved with this back and forth **** about who is doing what, when, and how. But I do have to say that this totally hurt my feelings. I was very successful with my taper and even came to work all week, including day 1, with very, very mild W/D's. I couldn't have done that without tapering. I wasn't putting off the inevitable I KNEW I WANTED TO QUIT. I choose the taper so I wouldn't have the runs the sweats, the aches, the **** I couldn't deal with the first time I tried C/T; the day I found out I was pregnant. Not to mention that if I had chosen the C/T method I might not still be with child. So you can't dismiss tapering some of us truly need it. I agree with trying an AA/NA meeting but that too does not work for some of us. When I was recovering from cocaine in my early 20's I found that AA/NA meetings made me want the drug even more. I would listen to their stories and remember all the good times I had using the drug and I would think, that wasn't so bad and I would leave jonesing. I never went to another meeting and haven't touched the stuff since. So please be tolerable of others as the people around you have, we are all human with different wants, needs, and reasons.

[DAnthrope]

THANK YOU for saying-  I think we should remember that even the people preaching intolerance are trying their best to help others.  It's not easy to keep coming back here, honestly.  I'm starting to really live life again and have much to catch up on!  And I have no patience for intolerance and ignorance.

But there are several here that seem inspired by my words and find their OWN strength inside to keep going - and for them I say, THANK YOU, and pray for the courage to forge ahead and be here for those that need a helping hand instead of a cold slap.

Peace - and remember I am following your progress!
/D

[Taffy101]

Maybe none of my business, but everyone else is adding their 2 cents here, thought I'd drop in mine as well... I just wanted to agree with texasrecca about the statement she made, "You (meaning DA) have helped me more than anyone!" I wanted Da, and texasrecca and Marcie4 to know that everytime I have posted something about "Failure" or feeling that I will "NEVER" make it, you didn't kick me while I was down, you incouraged me to make it... You showed me strength, and still are, that I didn't know I had... I am a very touchy person, I take things that people say to heart... maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong... But I have to disagree with BT... I think that was way out of line to call someone that was tappering a "failure"... Does it make you feel good to bring other's down?

[cforster]

How many AA/NA meeting have you attended?  Why are you so quick to put down something that has literally helped millions stay sober?

You are obviously a very smart person.  Anyone who reads your posts will not argue that fact.  

However, can you give me some success rates on your method?  

I don't like to get into these types of conversations, but come on?

I mean, lets get to the basics.  There are millions of people who have gotten sober....and stayed sober in aa/na.  Do you really think we are about cutting people down?  NO.  Do I come off too strong sometimes....no doubt.  If I offend someone....really, I'm not sorry.  This thing is life and death.  I have personally seen 3 of my old using friends die in the past 10 months.  It hurts, and I'm tired of seeing it.  You can enable someone to take one more, and tell them its ok, and baby them. OR, tell them its not ok, it your hurts yourself and THOSE AROUND YOU.  

All too many times I see people argue with the fact that the 12 steps work.  Why?  Usually because they can't get honest with theirself.  So my prayer is that they feel enough pain, and try their own way, and live.  Live to ask for help from someone with some real sobriety under their belt who knows what they are talking about.

What the 12 steps actually do is is get you out of self, and prep you to do the next right thing.....Gods will....
My will got me high, all my bright ideas on how to get sober got me high....it hurt me and my family, eventually I stopped fighting it, and surrendured to God, worked the steps....and here I am.


I will continue to pray for you

[DAnthrope]

They HAVE to beat you down, so that you SURRENDER - in their OWN words, you MUST SURRENDER YOUR POWER, ADMIT DEFEAT, AND ACCEPT that ONLY GOD can help you.

So yeah, it makes beach feel great to beat you (and me) down.  
He really believes he's helping you that way.

If anyone doesn't believe, just read their own words.  What I say above is exactly what -3- different people have said here today.

/D

[cforster]

So remind me again how long you have been sober?  Your way really worked for you in the past didn't it.  Thats statistics for you.....

[DAnthrope]

In your own words:
"What the 12 steps actually do is is get you out of self, and prep you to do the next right thing.....Gods will."

That says it all right there.
"Gods will"

What if I don't believe in a god who has a "will"?!
What if I don't believe in god?!?!?!

To answer your question, I have been to at least a dozen AA meetings.
Each one was at a church.
I have not for 1 day been "saved" by your god and my alcohol consumption continues.  And yes, I tried surrendering to it and admitting I had no power over it.  Do you know what I got in return?  
HOPELESSNESS.

Contrast that to 11 days without ONCE getting high off vicodin, 2 days without using a single pill. And all that ON MY OWN WITHOUT YOUR GOD OR YOUR NA.


Look - I'm not bashing NA - if it works for some GREAT!!!  I have said this MANY times here - if it works for you GREAT!

But DO NOT come here preaching that it is the ONLY way to victory.

DO NOT come here STEALING THE HOPE OF OTHERS JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT SHARE YOU BELIEFS.  

Enough is enough.  cforster - tell me WHO'S POST is at the very TOP of this thread?  Who was it that had to start this insanity?  


/D

[DAnthrope]

"So remind me again how long you have been sober? Your way really worked for you in the past didn't it. Thats statistics for you..."


And so you PROVE the point - that you and the others will ATTACK anyone who doesn't share their opinion.  CONVERT TO OUR WAY OR WE ATTACK.


The answer to your question is this:  AA was the only method I've used for alcoholism recovery.  And no, it didn't work.  


Thank you for that Brother.  
I see your God preaches love and compassion for only those who share your views.


/D

[cforster]

Do you really think your doing all these people so much good trying to make them believe AA/NA doesn't work?  

I tell you what.....please remember this.  I challenge you to try and outsmart, out think your addiction.  I know you don't understand where I'm coming from, and thats ok.  

Down the road when you are beat up enough, and your way fails......go to a meeting a share.....

I promise AA/NA will be around.......

[addictedtoloratab]

D is not saying it does not work, he is saying that it does not work for everyone.  we are all individuls.  As a matter of fact if it worked for everyone we would have football stadiums to have the meetings.  He is just saying lets support each other not try to preach...

[CATUF]

I do not believe that this argument does any good for anyone.  

Moreover, I think that such an argument is not even in keeping with the 12-Step programs it purports to be about.  According to the written traditions of AA and NA, both: a) have "no opinion out outside issues" [Tradition 10], which would include methods of recovery other than NA or AA; and b) are programs "of attraction, rather than promotion" [Tradition 11], which means they don't sell themselves, they let their existence attract those who find them attractive.  See Ch. 4 of NA's Basic Text and Ch. 5 of AA's Big Book, titled How it Works in both ("If you want want we have . . .").

I would suggest that arguments like these are not in the Spirit of Recovery, regardless of which side one is on.

[AlmostThere99]

Last week had the God vs god issue, Now the CT vs Tappering issue. Not to mention the were not fun enough complaints.

If I was a paying member I would ask for a refund. I come her twice a day. Once to post how I am doing for myself and others who may or may not care and then a second time to read and learn form others successes and failures.

The rest of this **** has got to stop. Tolorance with medication is a bad thing. Tolorance for others views and opinions is a good thing.