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the reason i choose to come off the oxycontin was my soon to be wife does not like the drug and works in the medical feild my sex drive fell to nothing and i started withering away from activity, I choose to try the summer with no oxycontin and try other remedies for pain, with the help of you guys and girls i have been strong enough so far my dr thinks i should stay on it for qualities of life issues,how long does the sleep dep last for
I have starting eating again but lack the sleep i have ambien 10mg is it safe to take double dose thaanks
I went in today for a Cryoablation procedure (where they freeze the damaged nerves to kill some of my pain.) The procedure sucks to say the least but it works. I'm sore as hell from the entry site and will be for week or so. The doctor asked if I wanted pain meds (narcs) and I said no. Asked if wanted Ultram, said no. Walked out a "free" man. I'm still on my tapper down which is going okay so far and said "NO don't want any more" today for the first time! Think I'm making progress, Schlub!
Thanks for your help. Hope your doing well. Nod
I must take issue with some of the advice given above.
This is why I have often said on this site – when you are using drugs, whether it is detoxing or otherwise, it is important to have medical supervision. Doctors go to med school for a reason. They do not just put people on drugs, they are responsible for using caution when putting people on drugs, and are required to know how to take them off. In regards to the suggestion that one poster above has “ to take 3 Ambien for them to work and they would be very hard to OD on. What I do is keep taking em til they knock me out...” The manufacture’s information and other sites familiar with Ambien would seem to say otherwise – to wit:
Never take more than 10 milligrams of Ambien per day. People who take too much Ambien may become excessively sleepy or even go into a light coma. The recommended dosage for adults is 10 milligrams right before bedtime. Your doctor will prescribe a smaller dose if you are likely to be sensitive to the drug or have a liver problem. The symptoms of overdose are more severe if the person is also taking other drugs that depress the central nervous system. Some cases of multiple overdoses have been fatal.
(http://www.healthsquare.com/newrx/AMB1017.HTM) there are many other sites that also suggest taking extreme caution with Ambien dosage and use.
You should take only the prescribed dose, exactly as instructed by your doctor. Never double (or triple) the dose. Some people using Ambien--especially those taking serotonin-boosting antidepressants--have experienced unusual, even psychotic changes in their thinking and/or behavior. Again, you should work with and alert your doctor if you notice a change.
Other legitimate concerns about Ambien - are you taking anything else? It is especially important to check with your doctor before combining Ambien with the following:
The major tranquilizer, chlorpromazine (Thorazine)
Other tranquilizers
Alcohol
The antidepressant drug, imipramine (Tofranil)
Serotonin-boosting antidepressants such as Paxil, Prozac, and Zoloft
Drugs that depress the central nervous system, including Valium, Percocet, and Benadryl
Anecdotal information like recipes and personal experiences with drugs are fine, IF they are viewed in that context. Remember, no one here is a doctor (which brings up my question earlier this week, is there a doctor in the house?) But, none of us are qualified to tell you how to take a prescription drug, or indicate that it is ok to triple a dosage or not worry too much about side effects like too much of a hangover. Ambien can have a severe "carry over" effect the next day. What do you do? If you work as a truck driver, on an assembly line or as a childcare worker- I would not want you going to work with an Ambien hangover. The literature also advises that one use extreme care while doing anything that requires complete alertness, such as driving a car or operating machinery. Usual medical precautions, yes. But remember, this is an online forum, not a medical exam – please take all suggestions in that context. Finally, do you drink? If so, how much? You should use Ambien cautiously if you have liver problems.
This site can offer a lot of well-intentioned help, but you should be careful with what you hear and act upon. Ambien is a prescription drug. I wouldn’t triple the dosage or experiment. I would work with my physician and please, be careful.
Hope you get some sleep.
JF.
I have been through the hell of MS Contin and OC withdrawal. If you are able see a family practioner(sp) or shrink immediatly and tell them the honest, emphasise on HONEST truth, some of your pain can be reduced. I know what you are going through, as it took me only 90 days of subligual, and nasal MS/OC contin use to go through the pain you are no doubt experiencing. It is in essence a classical connudrum that you may to get more "meds" to get you through the dark days, but, if you are honest with an MD, they will usually help.
A long acting benzo such a Librium and sleep aid such Ambien...or Sonata should buffer the agony. These drugs are indeed addictive so you must be serious about wanting to stop the insanity and let them guide you.
Any addict with a little cash and some time on their hands can fenagle a family practicional until the cows come home, so don't switch poisons. If you are serious, 25mgs of Librium QID (four times a day)...and 10mgs of Ambien at bedtime will reduce the hell. People talking about Methadone are full of ****, that is a long acting fillubuster for more trouble. DO NOT go the Methadone route, as you will be adding fuel to the fire. Methedone clinics are the devil, in this junkies opion.
You must accept the fact that you will be uncomforable for 10-14 days, maybe less with the help of a liberal doctor, and very prone to relapse without the help of the two bridge meds I mentioned. Be HONEST, make sure you are ready to quit and go to NA meetings.
Read, watch bad movies, just do not call "the man" and do not become addictied to benzos, particurly Xanax and Halcion, as these are the lesser of two evils, they will keep you in the panic that you are in now if you use them "as otherwise directed.
Be honest with a doctor, put some controls in place to prevent the overuse of the "bridge benzos" and believe me. The pain can and WILL end if you give it some time and realize that there are consequences that we all have to face getting of the hillbilly heroin....but they can be minimized by an understanding doctor, a support group and time.
I thought I would die at one time, you have painted the picture of my opiod life, and I made it through just fine. I now have almost 14 months clean at age 29.
God speed and good luck...IT NEVER HAS TO BE LIKE THIS AGAIN. I PROMISE.
LMH
LMH
LMH
Why does your doc want you to stay on the oxys? You say quality of life. If you have a severe physical impairment that is legitimately causing your pain you may indeed need medication and there are many alternatives to oxys.
Does your doc know you are not sleeping and withdrawing? Is there a problem with him? I think Schulb posted elsewhere how much easier it is with a doc willing to help. I can't tell if yours is, but I would ask for HIS suggested sleep aids and dosage - although I found friends of b's suggested regimen reasonable. Still why can’t you discuss all this with your doc.
Anyway I find your desire to get clean admirable, I just hope you use the best resources available to you.
As for the methadone Z, I know it can be a life saver, but you are trading one addiction for another and the other may be even harder to come off. The benefit of the meth is that it's legal and supervised and, if you really, really want to you can taper,you can get off. However, they folks doling the stuff out don't seem to be real proactive about gettin you off and how many folks do you know who ever do - probably the minority.
Anyway I am glad you are off the illegal stuff and trying to get your life back together.
Take care,
JF
willow leaf,exedrin,but i live in the state of Maine and during the winter months i can barely walk without a cain at age 26 and a former athelete I lived one of the most active lifesdrug free but since being crushed by a 2 ton combat system for a goverment destroyer. since my injury i have lost over 35 lbs of muscle and look like and old man. I have found my faith again which I strayed for the last 6 years but I have found it deep inside me still lingering to come out and give me strength to go on, All i ask for r the simple things in life I want to have a faimly,I want to enjoy time with my parents while there still here,and i just want to smile again thanks guys your all soooooo strong keep it up
What about patches, morphine? I don't think that causes the mental confusion, euphoria of oxys and seems to be effective. I see that being used more and more now days. Can you sit down with your doc, and your loved ones if need be, and discuss ways to lead the quality of life you desire. I hope so.
You are right, a lot of people here are pulling for you.
JF
after reading your previous posts, i must tell you that yuou are
not alone in your suffering and desire to have your life back. i
have been through many of the same things you have. i've had to
surgerys at the cervical level of my spine. even though the last
surgery (done in may of 2001) was successful at stablizeing my
spine, i'm still left in a horid (intractable) level of pain. i
see a pain doc at a pain clinic. i've tried about every method of
drug free pain control. nothing works. so i take 40 mg. of oxycontin three times a day. although i'm far from being pain free, i am able to lead a more "normal" life than if i didn't take oxy. the hardest part for me has been regaining my life. it took a lot of work on acceptance. today i try to keep in mind that i will never have my life back the way it was previous to this neck trouble. that doesn't mean i can't have a life. it took me quite a while to stop feeling like god & the rest of the world didn't intentionly screw me over.
Bronzeback, please believe me when i tell you that there is a way
through all of this. you probably have one of the same day to day
difficultys that i do. i want a life back NOW. that isn't going
to happen on my time table. a certain amount of my recovery has
been working on patience.
you have done the proper thing to get involved with this forum.
this forum is flled with kind, understanding compassionet people.
you won't find people like them too many other places. i look
forward to seeing you post again. i don't have this pain thing
figured out...maybe we can figure it out if all of us work to-
gather.
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
Beige/Tik
Bronze...if you were taking 3 of the 5mg pills, that probably wouldn't be dangerous. And it might not be dangerous for everyone. But what if you are the one who's body chemistry can't handle that dose of Ambien and you get hurt over it?
It is not worth the risk. There are other things you can try...I have to agree with the poster who suggested asking your Doc.
Schlub has been very good about reminding us that there are medical professionals out there who are there to help people through this kind of thing.
We folks who post here may know a lot, but we are not qualified to tell people what dose of meds like Ambien are ok or not ok to take.
I just worry...please, be careful, and we should all be careful of the advice we give..including myself.
love,
WW
As I just posted elsewhere on this forum, there are additional reasons to see an addiction specialist or even just a family practitioner with no special knowledge of addiction:
1) Simply asking for help, and being in the physical presence of areassuring doctor, has been scientifically proven to significantly reduce withdrawal symtpoms. In just the opposite way that blood pressure readings are higher when taken in a doctor's office then at home, withdrawal symptoms are reduced when a patient is reassured that a doctor is there to help him.
2) It's our secrets that kill us. If you attempt to get clean while hiding that fact and not telling anyone or enlisting anyone's help, you are just less likely to succeed. Let someone help you and be an ally.
I don't think I've ever heard of a doctor who, when honestly told by a patient that he had a drug problem and needed help, didn't feel the greatest sympathy for that person and try to help.
Witchywoman, I'm not doubting that someone od'd on 30 mgs. of Ambien but that's got to be pretty rare. I've taken 50 and I am not a big person. And I did not have tolerance built up. Was their health compromised in any other way? Were they drinking? Ambien is a pretty pathetic drug IMHO anyway as far as sleeping goes. I have to take at least 2 -3 and then it only lasts a couple of hours and you're wide awake again.
In the real world, people are going to medicate themselves without consulting their doctors. Look at all the herbal remedies people take which haven't even been tested or regulated by the FDA and they have no idea of what they're taking or the effect. Do they consult their doctors about that? If you look at the information on the trials for Ambien, you will see it usually takes a huge amount to overdose. As is the case with most benzos too.
I just heard what the Doc said. Perhaps it is a body chemistry thing. We are all different. I just think we need to be careful with the advice we give about what to take, and I'll admit I'm guilty of this myself.
I've never taken ambien, so I have no personal experience with what it does.
It's also true that many docs out there are not very empathic when it comes to helping addicts. Schlub is very lucky to have found the gem of the Doc he works with.
I know you were trying to help, and that lack of sleep is a major cause of relapse for folks trying to detox. I wish there were easy answers!
thanks for caring, I know you do.
love,
WW
I am sure it is not good for everyone, but I am praying it is good for me because I just can't fail again. I was forging about 5 perscriptions a week, I was on my way to jail, this has just got to work.
I wish you the best.......Love Zelda
Http://communities.msn.com/Baddgirlsworld
come see how nice I am lol
First, I think it was Schlub who pointed out that it is our secrets that are killing us. This simple statement is one of truest I have read. Granted we are all sharing our secrets here, and that's a step in the fight direction, but we are all anonymous and not sharing them with the people we should be. The prospect of fessing up to my loved ones and employers is utterly mortifying, as I run the risk of losing my family and my jobs. That's the worst case scenario, of course, and I may be pleasantly surprised to find out that they will stand behind me. The negative thinking simply reinforces the desire to keep using, since all seems hopeless anyway. I think it all boils down to fear: Fear of being discovered, fear of loss of income and love, fear of withdrawal, fear, fear, fear. It's paralyzing and is the ultimate enabler.
Then there is the fear of coming clean with the docs and not getting an empathetic response. This has happened to me in the past. I was simply written off the doc's list of clients and hung out to dry. Not very encouraging. Obviously if I see a new doctor, a psychiatrist who specializes in addiction, then I would think the odds are pretty damn good that he/she will help, since that is their specialty. But I still have my doubts and am afraid I will get yanked off of everything and not given something to help me deal with withdrawal. Isn't that the irony here for so many of us? We want to quit, and some of us are willing to confess everything and put our lives in the hands of a doctor--which is the smartest and safest way to go about it--yet we run the risk of getting a doctor who either doesn't know what they are doing or who will simply write us off. It's a valid dilemma, and I guess the answer is that there a lot of doctors out there and, of course, rehab/detox facilties that basically have to help you because that is what they are there for.
When I got clean three years ago, all of my doctors were wiped out because my employer called them all and busted me. That was okay with me since I was clean, although I would have liked to have kept one of them since he was a good doctor, a nice man, and I believe would have been empathetic. So I decided to start anew, found a doctor I liked, and told him EVERYTHING. I told him the truth, everything I had been through, and I emphasized that I was an addict and that despite my pain, I did not want opiates. Ever. And yet, on occasion, the doctor would ask me if I wanted vicodin and I would say, "Are you crazy? Don't you remember what I told you?" It's like the anecdote above of seeing the assistant and then seeing the doc and him being so rushed he just filled the Rx's. So, for reasons I will not get into here, I started using again, just a little bit at the beginning. But as the habit grew, I realized my doc, the one I had told to never give me vicodin, would probably write a scrip without blinking. I was right. Now I feel that if I go back there and say, "Hey, I'm hooked and I want to get off" and he bothers to look through my chart and reads what we talked about on our first meeting, he may just get paranoid that he screwed up and cancel me as a patient. Of course, this could be my own paranoia, and the doc may feel obliged to help me since it is there in writing that I asked not to be put on opiates and he did it anyway. All I can think is that the word "malpractice" will light up in the doctor's head and I really don't know what his reaction to that will be. He's a good doctor, even though he obviously forgot a very important facet of my history, and would not have given me the Rx had I not asked for it. I don't blame him, but at the same time, I think that he is obliged to help me out of this mess since he played a part in getting me into it, and I truly want to quit and need a doctor's help. Maybe I am better off just starting all over again with a shrink who specializes in addiction to get me off of this ****, and then find a new MD with whom I can be totally honest and who may have a better memory. I don't know. I'm just venting here and would appreciate any advice....
Lastly, I agree with seamstress about the ambien. I understand the good intentions behind the post that says to never ever take more than what is prescribed, but come on, you're talking to addicts here, people whose bloodstreams are hardly pristine and who have built up a tolerance for god know's what. I also don't understand how the kid od'd on three ambien without having taken something else, but we are all different. Maybe he is a lightweight when it comes to that drug. I know that when I used to drink, if I drank and took ambien, I would go on a rampage and do all kinds of things I would not remember the next day. But I don't drink now. I just want to get some sleep, and I have been an insomniac for more than twenty years. The fact that we are all different may not be an excuse for self medication, but it does allow for each and every one of us to know how our own bodies work. I've tried taking one ambien and then, two hours later, when I am still awake, I take another one. Sometimes I have to take a third. And I finally sleep and wake up five hours later and do not feel groggy. That's just me. Believe me, no one appreciates the natural gift of sleep more than an insomniac. I envy those who simply get in bed, shut their eyes, and fall asleep. I have tried every natural remedy known to man. I have tried yoga, meditation, special "music," and a dozen other relaxation techniques. I have read countless books about sleep. Nothing has worked for me except medication and even that is sketchy. More than one doctor has told me that though sleep meds are intended for short term use, they are also necessary for long-term, even lifelong, use in the case of chronic insomnia. I've heard it said more than once that lack of sleep never killed anyone, but it can certainly drive you crazy and make your life unbearable. Just the fact that sleep deprivation is one of the most effective and devastating forms of torture should attest to that.
I'm not advocating someone getting an ambien Rx and then immediately abusing it. In fact, if there is any way at all you can avoid taking meds to sleep, then stay away from them. If you only need them short term, and find that natural sleep returns, then you are fortunate and be thankful. I would give anything to sleep naturally, and as I have said before, have gone 72 hours without sleep hoping to force myself into it. And my insomnia was just as bad when I was straight as it is when I am using, so it is not a result of my addiction. To imply that those of us who suffer from a very real condition should simply go without sleep if the dosage of one pill does not work is advice that is easily dispensed, but completely unrealistic. I would invite you to walk a mile in my shoes or the shoes of any chronic insomniac and then make that suggestion.
Sorry if this comes off as angry, but I felt a bit frustrated reading what I already know, what I have read on so many circulars for sleep medications. Unfortunately, the world is not black and white. To be clear, I agree that one must be careful with sleep meds or any benzos, for the risk of addiction or overdose is very real. For some of us, however, there is little choice between exceeding the recommended dose or suffering the living hell that comes from lack of sleep.
If anyone has an answer to this problem, I am all ears, and will try anything. In the meantime, thank you all for being here, for listening and sharing, and for making this rough road that much smoother.
I sure hear your frustration loud and clear!
For clarity's sake, my main point was that since we are not doctors, we need to be careful about giving anyone dosing advice on any medication. Better for us to tell folks to ask their Docs for what else they should do, rather than tell them what dose to take. I was not implying that those who suffer from lack of sleep should just suffer. I think those who know me know I have a lot more compassion than that.
Meds work differently on different people. A long time ago, someone here posted that taking zinc and manganese helped with detox. So a poster went out and took a lot of zinc, way more than the recommended dosage and got incredibly sick, so sick he thought he was going to die. Zinc can be toxic in large doses.
I too suffer from insomnia. I know it all too well. Nothing works for me, and my Doc won't give me ambien, so I get by on the little bit of sleep than I get.
take care,
WW
Anyway, thanks again and I certainly didn't mean to single you out or nay-say your valuable input.
Peace.
U.
Glad to see you're making progress, Nod. I'm doing great on Day 11 now of detox. I have felt ZERO withdrawal symptoms the whole time -- in fact, I feel better and more energetic than I did while using, and I'm not even high!
Anyay, I'll stop the Bup this Sunday. So beginning Monday or Tuesday I should be in the grip of a profound lethargy and depression. But most of us addicts have to go through that post-withdrawal depressed phase, so I'll just have to manage it, too.
That's where I relapsed twice before, but not this time. I'm not sure how I know, I just know that I'm going to make it -- thanks in no small measure to the suppport of folks like you.
A couple of small points: I guess I was being naive when I said most docs would try to help if you come clean with them. Obviously, there are a lot of jerks out there -- and a lot of doctors afraid of getting anywhere near the sort narcotics use or treatment that might attract the interest of the DEA and its "war on drugs."
It's also a sad fact of life that most of us do have to try to medicate and heal ourselves, because there's simply not enough affordable and competent treatment options out there.
But if you are lucky enough to have access to a caring physician who knows about addiction and is willing to help you, it makes all the difference in the world. In my case, I had the Buprenex and didn't even need to call my doctor to get some. But I knew that I risked failure if I hid my relapse from him and tried to just get clean on my own. So I went to him and asked for help again. What a relief! A huge weight lifted from my shoulders.
Because I truly believe it's our secrets that kill us.
The lying, the hiding, the constant self-loathing and feeling like everyone else is different than you because you have this secret suffering that you can't tell anyone about -- that's what saps our spirit and strength and keeps us using because we can't let anyone see us in withdrawal, right? It takes a lot of faith and courage to finally tell the truth even to your spouse.
And you'd be surprised how supportive spouses and family can be. When I told my wife, she was stunned at first -- I mean, this is a woman who doesn't know anything about drugs or addiction. She cried for a few minutes when it hit her that I'd been lying to her and hiding my addiction. But somehow she knew that I wouldn't have done that -- wouldn't have lied -- except that I was sick and couldn't find a way out. So within five minutes of me telling her my awful secret and feeling so remorseful about how I'd lied to her, this is what she said to me:
"Okay, if you really want to make it up to me," she said, "then here's what I want you to do: forgive yourself, so you can get on with your recovery."
No one has to tell me how lucky I am that she married me. I don't deserve it, honestly I don't. But thank God I have her.
Anyway, the point is that very very few of us can get clean and recover on our own. We need the help of others.
So please, people, find someone you can talk to. It's our secrets that kill us.
I know all about drugs , but not too much about detox meds.When I quit (for whatever reason)--I went cold turkey many many X's. I did it only ONE time on oxy's and will never try that again.
I think if you want to quit you need to find a qualified Dr.--not you're regualar MD, a dtox Dr.remember some Dr's specialize in both detox and pain management and get you hooked/get you unhooked and sometimes that can be a visious circle if he is making $ each time.
Each one of us is diferent in age,health,weight and severity of our addiction, everyone will require a diffent dosage and drug to handle the pain they still have, if they do, and diffeent drugs/doses to detox.
Talking to someone about your problem is VER important, but be careful! Talk to a close friend,spouse, or sibling--someone you know will support you and keep it confidential.
hey people. out of all the times i posted today i forgot everytime to tell you what day it is. today at 1:30 pm central time i have one full year of being nicotine free!! i must confess that nicotine is the most difficult addiction to break free of. ****, to this day it still suprises me how much power it still has over me. any how my wife is happy, my mom and dad are happy, my mother in law is happy. even "meaty boy," my keeshound is happy. now if i could just get half as happy as anyone is about this....well i don't know. i don't think i've ever been that hap-
py!!
i may not be real "happy" about quitting the nicotine, i am real
grateful. it took almost all of the king's horse and everybody's
help to do this. i needed lots of "help."
to all the smokers (of nicotine) out there: i don't want to sound
like a nag harpping at you, but smoking gets you one of two things. DEAD OR SOME ******* DOCTOR TELLING YOU TO QUIT. yep thats it. all your money, all your pulmonary health, to wind up one of those two ways....
keep an angel on your shoulder
kip
Schlub---I am also on Bupernex, my 1st time, day 6, I plan on another 5-10 xxperience with this med? I don't want another adiction (addiction) problem for Bup. It has Opiates in it also. so far, like you I feel great! Let me know if you have any advice.
Tonight, I had the feeling more than ever that I need to either check into a hospital for detox or see a very good shrink who specializes in addiction on an outpatient basis because this simply cannot go on any longer. I may be alive but I am not living, and as Schlub keeps saying, it is the lies and the secrets and the hiding that take the greatest toll. I am sick of the lies. Being able to speak out honestly here has made me realize that even more, and helped me come to grips with the fact that I need to share my problem with more than just you wonderful people, no matter how grim the outcome. I would rather be sober, broke, and divorced than addicted and living a lie and getting a paycheck every week. Hopefully the reality of it will be not be as bad as that worst-case scenario, and all of you have given me hope.
If I believed in god I would say god bless you all. Instead, I can only thank you from the bottom of my heart.
BRONZEBACK75
Passing judgement about what other people do or dont believe, hardly seems spiritual or productive.
littleguy
Tik/Beige
To me that sounds judgemental, just my opinion.
littleguy
Asking for God's help -- even if you're an atheist -- is good for us, I think. There's an element of surrender in that act, a recognition that we need help and maybe a little bit of grace to get us through the pain we're dealing with. It shows not just desperation, but an openness that addicts like us need.
Dunit, I'd recommend that you taper your Buprenex doses to jump off on the last few days at no more than 1 amp/day. Even 1/4 amp twice a day (or 1/2 amp for the whole day) would be best.
That will minimize any withdrawals from Bup. Just be prepared for several days to a week or so of profound lethargy and depression. The Bup gets us past the serious physical withdrawal symptoms of the first week of detox, but I believe it only delays the post-withdrawal lethargy and depression that follow.
We Agnostics
In the preceding chapters you have learned something of alcoholism. we hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the non-alcoholic. If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted.
If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.
Lack of power, that was our dilemma. we had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored.
We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice. Some of us have been violently anti-religious. To others, the word "God" brought up a particular idea of Him with which someone had tried to impress them during childhood. Perhaps we rejected this particular conception because it seemed inadequate. With that rejection we imagined we had abandoned the God idea entirely. We were bothered with the thought that faith and dependence upon a Power beyond ourselves was somewhat weak, even cowardly. We looked upon this world of warring individuals, warring theological systems, and inexplicable calamity, with deep skepticism. We looked askance at many individuals who claimed to be godly. How could a Supreme Being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a Supreme Being anyhow? Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, "Who, then, make all this?" There was a feeling of awe and wonder, but it was fleeting and soon lost.
Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.
When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was.
We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. --"Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.*
The point is that your post got me thinking again, even looking skyward and wondering... Life is always about questioning, and the older I get, the more I realize I don't know jack. It used to be the other way around. When I was young and full of ****, I thought I knew everything. Now I realize I know nothing other than my own life experiences, and even those are a bit dubious when it comes to providing answers. I have always felt conspicuous and guilty praying to God only when I was in trouble and not when I should have been giving thanks. Perhaps that is something that has kept me away from getting on my knees again, thinking that I am selfish person who, of there is a God, is undeserving of his grace as I only seek him out when things are going wrong. And yet I remember when my child was born, I was filled with so much joy and without much thought I thanked god profusely for this gift. In that regard, there can be no harm whatsoever in opening my soul and making the leap of faith that there is something out there greater than the self, something that is forgiving and understanding and will hear my pleas without judgement. As odd as it may sound, I still hold on to some shreds of integrity, and this includes only turning to a Higher Power if I truly and honestly believe in him, and not just as a last-ditch effort to help me out of what seems like a hopeless situation. The last thing I want to do is be seen by God as an opportunistic ingrate who only needs him when the chips are down, though my gut tells me God knows this and has seen it time and time again. We humans are pathetic selfish creatures, and if he created us, he should be all to aware of our faults. If this all sounds crazy, well, that's part of struggling with this divine question, which is perhaps the greatest question any of us have to answer in our lifetime. Perhaps the mere fact that I have doubts about my own beliefs is a good sign that there is still a chance for me to find God on whatever terms he will have me...and I will have him. To that end, your post was both inspiring and hopeful. Bless you and thank you for caring. You have made a difference. Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to take a moment or two to get on my knees, put my hands together, and ask for help. I figure the worst thing that can happen is that I will be struck by a bolt of lightning and reduced to a smoldering pile of ashes, which, come to think of it, wouldn't be so bad. Hopefully, I will instead come to the ultimate satisfaction in this life, which is the ability to know that what you believe is not always right, and there is always something new to learn.... In the end, I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. So thanks again for sharing, and I will keep you posted on whatever enlightenment providence may bring my way.
The day you have nothing new that you need to learn, you're dead.
littleguy
I have decided that it was time to take a sabbatical, hate to see someone OD because someone disagreed with my opinions. But I came back for a departing glance. I found your post and, I love it.
I thought it best I take a sabbatical, which I will, but I must tell you before I make my Alabama getaway, your post was both profound and sublime.
JMHO.
I think you put things in perspective and it was about time.
There are no prereqresits HERE. One does not have to be approved as member. This is a *free* forum of ideas - no one controls that. One does not have to endorse anybody's philosophy to search, honestly. Nobdody/diety has a monopoly on salvation.
If you find somebody calling him or herself the Buddha, run, at the very least.
Write on unwise, write on.
JF
***@****
Finally I just gave up.. "You win, GOD!" if you are there, YOU fix me. If you exist, and you are all powerful -- Prove it!"
"I am powerless... **** it."
Do you know what I just did then? Without knowing it, I took the first step.... and do you know what else? I am sober now.. what the **** happened? Yes, I wen't through withdrawls and pain... But it occurs to me that I am not CONSTANTLY thinking of a way to get MORE drugs, drink MORE vodka... What is this? Is it faith? I don't try to understand the universe or God anymore... It is a great weight off my being. It is total freedom to "let go and let God"-- as the saying goes. I just quit trying to understand what cannot be explained; and life goes on. Better. and with serenity.
Do I "pray" daily? No. Not in the "Church" way of understanding or doing it.
Look. I AM ALIVE. I close my eyes; I say "Thank you for life." and that is the greatest offering.
No great epiphanies here in this rambling post, but just know that I appreciate each and every one of you, and though I have never met you and probably never will, you have all made an immense difference in my life. At the risk of sounding a bit hypocritical, I would like to say God bless you all, and I wish you only peace and success.
Baddgirl, I've prayed countless times in desparation and not gotten an answer. Or maybe I did and didn't see it. And sometimes I've prayed and gotten an answer and been sorry I asked for it. As they say, be careful what you ask for. Sometimes I think we're just meant to go through things because we need to, no matter how painful they are.
littleguy
My own anecdote about God, which may explain a lot of my cynicism, has to do with the loss of my brother. I was six years old at the time. He was much older and killed in a car accident. I saw my parents torn up. They began to go to church more often, donated tons of money to the church, got involved in all kinds of extra-curricular church groups...anything to fill the void of the loss. In time, they had a falling out with the church over something that still remains unclear to me, and went about rebuilding their lives still believing in God and going to church on Sundays, but also I think they learned that all the money and extra time they devoted to the church would not ressurect my brother. As for me, I was a child, but I was inundated with well-meaning books from relatives and family friends that told little stories of how God had meant for my brother to die at such a young age, that there was some kind of master plan to this tragedy, that my brother was in a better place, sitting on a cloud with Jesus and, presumably, listening to AM pop hits. All of this drivel was supposed to make me feel better about my brother's death, but instead, it made me angry at God. I saw right through it. Even at six, I found it hard to swallow that God needed my brother up there in heaven so badly that he couldn't have just left him with us, where he made us happy. And so a young atheist was born. Not that I didn't struggle over the years to come to terms with God's mysterious ways and try to believe. I was confirmed in the church and even thought of entering the priesthood at one point. Then I began studying different religions, and realized that since God comes in many forms, not one of them is more valid than the next. The promise of hell that was sure to come to every Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, and whoever else didn't accept the blood of christ as their only saviour...well, that just didn't smell right. I studied the wars that have been fought in the name of the Prince of Peace, the torture that took place under his banner, the greed and pain and suffering that sprang from organized religion...and I wanted nothing to do with it. I knew it wasn't Christ who personally instigated these travesties--it was the evil things that men do in his name, twisting his words and his message to their own selfish ends. One look at the headlines will reaffirm this, with Catholic priests running like rats from the spotlight of sexual abuse that has finally caught up with them. I wish there were a hell, for it is men like these, men who take advantage of the sacrament of Christ to molest CHILDREN who deserve to rot in it for eternity. It seems to come down not to God but to man, and man is a weak and faulty creature. Man wrote the bible and its a schizophrenic tome. The old testament is about an angry paternal god who pulls nasty tricks on people like Job to test their faith, and wipes out the earth with floods and other disasters to teach the sinners a lesson. Then, in the new testament, he does an about face and is a maternal god, a god of love and forgiveness who sacrifices his only son for mankind. Keeping in mind that the bible was written by men, not god, this dichotomy is more understandable as two works of fiction written by individuals with two different agendas...agendas that have been twisted to create as much havoc and suffering as they have good.
But I digress. Littleguy is right. Faith can't be forced on any of us, we must find it on our own, and some of us will find it in the oddest places and on our own terms that may not jibe with Christianity or any other organized religion (I am avoiding the word "cult" here on purpose). Some of us may never find it, but that doesn't mean we aren't entitled to our beliefs nor happiness. So we all believe what we believe in because of something inside of us that tells us what we believe is true. I can sit with a shrink or a priest or my sponsor til kingdom come and they can try and track down my lack of faith...though I think I did a pretty good job summing it up here. And yet I still hope that one day I will have an epiphany, just as Raskolnikov did in his stinking cell on Easter Day (Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment) and I will see the light. Until then, all I know is what I know, and what I feel in my heart. AA, with its spritualism, has worked for many and failed for many more (including me). Such is also the case for many other organized means of recovery and sobriety. But research shows that there is an impressive success rate for those who somehow find the strength to recover on their own, which means that not only can it be done, but it can be sustained as well. If you have faith, if AA works for you, then by all means, use it for all its worth. If you do not have faith and have problems with the 12-steps, know that there are alternatives and that you are not hopeless or wrong or somehow defective for not being able to adhere to those tenets.
My friends, whatever path you are on, whatever it is you believe, I wish you all the best of luck and hope you find happiness and success. Thank you all for your insight, encouragement, and enlightenment. And if there is a God out there who is listening, I would like to thank him for this forum and the fine human beings who make it hum with hope.
littleguy
I hate to hijack this thread, not that it hasn't meandered already, but I am wondering if anyone here has had experience with any of the "Rapid Detox" centers that are out there? These basically offer a service where they put you to sleep, "reverse your dependency," then send you on your way with allegedly no cravings and a drug that will block the effects of opiates if you take any. While I understand that there is more to recovery than this seemingly too-good-to-be-true quick fix, it certainly seems like a viable way of expediting withdrawal and detox in order to get on with life and recovery. From what I have read in various articles, etc, it seems to work. Unfortunately it is not covered by insurance and will run about ten grand. Before I shell out that kind of money (as if I have it to shell out!) I would like to hear from anyone who had gone through it, or knows someone who has. Is it for real or just a scam? At this point in my life I do not have the time to spend two weeks or 28 days in a rehab facility and am looking at rapid detox as a serious alternative. Any thoughts?
Thanks again for all your help.
I've not personally experience rapid opiate detox, though I considered it and may very well have tried it if I had not been able to detox on my own.
Have you heard of the Puget Sound center in Oregon that does it? They charge $5,000 for it, which is still a lot of money, but less expensive than many of the other programs. I called them last summer to look into it, and the Doc who does it spent a half hour on the phone to me, talking about it, answering all my questions, and just being very supportive. It was a welcome relief to talk to a Doc who had respect for someone with an addiction.
The url for that site is: http://www.mindspring.com/~sleepdr/PROD.html There is a lot of good info on that site about it.
They do require that you take naltrexone for at least 6 months after the procedure to prevent relapse. They say the biggest danger is that someone might relapse right after the procedure, and take the dose they were used to taking, and OD, since the procedure lowers your tolerance. I'm of mixed feelings about naltrexone. What I've read indicates that it is not without its health risks, but in the end I think that the damage to our lives and relationships caused by chronic opiate abuse make the naltrexone the lesser problem.
Anyway, I hope that helps!
love,
WW
I'd love to hear from anyone else with experience or knowledge about rapid detox as I want to gain all the information I can before I blow all that cash. Thanks again, witchy, for the tip, and I will call them and try to talk to the same doc. Maybe he knows of a more affordable place nearby me. I've also considered calling my insurance company to find out if there is a rapid detox facility they do cover. Either way, I'm serious about this and hope that it lives up to its claims. I will keep you all posted, and thanks for your continued support and input.
Just a thought. Hope you find sleep soon.
Unwise, the only reservation I have heard about using naltrexone is that if you're in an accident or for some reason need to be medicated for pain, the meds won't work. It seems like a long shot of that happening to me, but I guess it's worth considering.
I would still appreciate hearing from anyone else who has any information about this method. I would love to hear from someone who had actually gone through it. I tried starting a new post with that as the subject, but you know how this forum is...it seems like one post a day is the quota for a rather large group of people, and whoever is lucky enough to grab it at the right time gets the podium. As I wrote before, that's the one thing I would really like to see changed about this forum. It would certainly make the threads more clear and offer specific headings that would enhance the reference process. I really can't imagine why this can't be done...it can't be a matter of space on the server as the threads are full to the brim anyway...
But again, I'm ranting to the wrong people. I will write to the admins now to see if anything can be done about it. In the meantime, thanks for your ideas, Seamstress, and if anyone else knows anything about Rapid Detox, please let me know.
Peace.
I have heard so many horror stories of anesthia-assisted opiate detox -- and I mean from people who have undergone it! People talk about coming home aferwards in agony. I don't know myself, but you can read some personal experiences at:
http://heroin-detox.com/Forum/default.asp
As for Naltrexone, I'm about to go on it myself in afew days, and what worries me is not the unlikely chance that I may be injured and need opiates, but the possibility that Naltrexone may not only block external opiates but internal endorphins responsible for feeling good as well.
The research seems to be mixed on it, with a slight weight towards those who say it does NOT cause dysphoria.
But you know what, the single greatest threat to my life right now is relapse -- greater than accidental injury, and greater than depression. So I'm going to at least try the Naltrexone, and if it doesn't worsen the funk I'll already be in from detoxing, then I'll use it for a few months to build up some "clean time" and get some distance from my addiction.
I lived clean and sober for 18 years once, so I know if I can just get some distance away from my addiction, I'll be fine.
Good luck with the naltrexone. Since I have been suffering severe depression with no relief yet from the prozac, I have actually be considering electroshock therapy as both a means of getting out of the depression and quite possibly the addiction. Since it was two severe seizures that "cured" me three and half years ago, I'm starting to think that going through the same process in a controlled environment may be my only hope. It sounds drastic, I know, but my pasty history indicates that I tend to only respond to drastic measures when it comes to kicking habits. I think I would gladly trade some memory loss and the risk of brain damage at this point to get out of what has become a suicidal depression and an addiction that I cannot seem to taper down from.
We'll see. In the meantime, you should be proud of yourself, and I hope all goes well with the naltrexone. Keep us posted.
I'm off to read the rapid detox horror stories. You may have saved me five to ten grand, so I owe you one.
Keep the faith.
I didn't realize there would be a sleeping issue as well. I've been on these meds for 10 years. 4 years w/the oxy and have never tried to stop. I have chronic pain but the drugs are getting too out of control and I just want to stop, check my true level of pain and find another way of coping with. I have ambien at home, I guess I'll use it if I have too. But I was going to get rid of all my meds. Is this detox dangerous to try cold turkey alone (hubby will be w/me at night after work).
Any comments of help would soooo be appreciated. I'm terrified of the un-known. Should I go to detox or can I do this alone at home w/my spouse. I'm taking all of next week off work. So I have 8 days to get it together.
Thanks in advance!
I used to think that going "cold turkey" was the best way to stop an addiction. Hah, was I ever wrong in believing that. Four years ago, I lost a good friend and just two weeks ago lost another. And of all things, the two died while home detoxing from alcohol! At least that was the coroner's conclusion.
My advice is that unless you've had some experience detoxing on your own, seek medical advice. BTW, seizures killed both of my friends but really it was the drug addiction.
As far as what to expect, just read through the many posts here on this forum. You will not find that anybody that goes through withdrawal brags about the experience. It's awful to say the least...for a long time both physically and psychologically.
Keep searching and maybe you'll find the answers...
J.B.
bronzeback75
Just my two cents.
Keep the faith.
hjp, my doctor prescribed Zanaflex and i found that it just helped me sleep well and pain free. he prescribed it to be taken at night, so i couldnt tell you what it would be like during the day.
for what its worth, i did the cold turkey thing... 17 days today! what i found in my favor was the fact that i was already on anti-depressants, my first day was hell! so depressed... i have not hit a low day since.. i have zero cravings. when i found myself not being able to sleep i took Trazadone, which is a sleep-aid with an anti-depressant in it also.. i sleep so well. my only problem is that my stomach is still messed up and i don't think i have ever sneezed so much in my life... hubby told me that was the only way to get oxygen back into my brain... he was just kidding. those are the only two things still with me. when i was taking my 20+ vicodins a day i could sleep away the weekend, now i am up and ready to start my day at 7:00 am., and i feel fine.. oh yeah one more lil thing, small headaches. nothing major.. it sort of concerns me because i suffered from migranes and didnt have any in the years i've been abusing myself. but i would take the headache over being "jacked" up any day.
i think about all of you and your struggles and accomplishments all the time. i pray for you all, because i know He listens. open yourself totally to Him and you will be delivered and free. just gotta surrender... even for those of you who do carry the belief, i surround you with the greatest of "good" energy. we are only here for a brief time, and we can accomplish anything we really want to, because we are made like that... free yourself and take it all in because reality isn't that bad... love and peace to all!!!
hjp--I think I would pass out if I took that much zanaflex; it makes me very sleepy!!! I didn't know about the appetite suppression side effect of topamax (though I have had that); thanks for the info.
I'm not sure how "rapid" you're talking about, but
my psychologist sent me to a psychiatrist who told
me that people almost never succeed on outpatient
detox ... he said that when you do it outpatient,
you're the doctor, therapist, nurse, pharmacist,
whatever, and most people don't wait the right
amount of time before the next dose. So he told
me I should check into the hospital, and I did.
I am 23, and I was taking Vicodin (usually around
10 5mg per day, I started taking it for headaches
around April 2000) and also Lorazepam (generic
Ativan, a benzo ... around 5 1mg per day). I'd
been taking the Lorazepam for 6 years. Anyway,
6 days later, I went home, and I haven't had
an urge to pick it up again since. It's been
10 weeks. Yippeeee! I've also gone to church
every Sunday since I got out of the hospital,
and spent more time studying the Bible (the
inspired Word of God, not written by men), and
praying! You said in an earlier post that you
felt like you were undeserving of God's grace
because you weren't thankful enough ... I just
wanted to make sure you know that NONE of us are
deserving ... not if we spent every minute of
every day being thankful. That's the whole
miracle of what Christ did for us ... we didn't
deserve it in any way ... but He loves us and
died so we could live forever. If you have
any questions about my detox, I'll be happy to
answer them! Good luck. :-)
There were times when I prayed to God for someone's benefit and things turned out well for them. There were times when I prayed for myself and was given the strength to go on to solve my own problems. We are very much spiritual beings as a whole but we tend to cut ourselves off while using and abusing. We become spiritless souls that end up suffering things like depression and low self esteem. But always remember that God was always there for you, all those years you were "out to lunch".
J.B.
judge others or "push my beliefs" on anyone, I
was just sharing my detox experience, which I
would not have made it through without the help
of the Lord. I can't talk about the detox without
giving Him credit ... it just doesn't feel right!
I wasn't trying to start a discussion on religion
or anything ... but I appreciate the warning! :-)
Kim
judge others or "push my beliefs" on anyone, I
was just sharing my detox experience, which I
would not have made it through without the help
of the Lord. I can't talk about the detox without
giving Him credit ... it just doesn't feel right!
I wasn't trying to start a discussion on religion
or anything ... but I appreciate the warning! :-)
My spirituality is very different from yours, but it was extremely important in helping me get and stay clean. It was by the grace of the divine that I was able to cross over away from the hell of addiction. That may not be everyone's experience, but for me, it was a gift that I remain humbly grateful for.
love,
WW