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To Sub or not to Sub - - That is the question?
This subject seems to keep popping up every few days as more people read or hear that Suboxone or Subutex may be “The Answer” to their addiction problem. About two months ago the debate raged pretty intensely between those who were pro or con on Sub. Most of the regulars on this site know of my negative experience with Sub –as I have tried my best to share it, but I may have, in my zeal, discouraged some from even wanting to quit their DOC. That certainly was (and is) not my intention. Let me share that after 3 months of being totally clean, life has not been this good in a very long time. Sub is a tool that can be successfully used to stop Opiate addiction. It works very well as almost everyone will agree – the point of disagreement among present and past users is whether it is appropriate for use in all Opiate addictions. My take on it is that if a person is on Heroin or Methadone, then Suboxone is probably justified. Perhaps even for those on very heavy doses of Oxycontin - (over 200 mg/day) may be justified in using Sub to kick the addiction. However, anything short of that may result in only swapping one drug for another. Sub is 40 times stronger than Oxy and although it does not give the ‘high’ we were accustomed to, it is more addictive than most people’s DOC. Knowledge is power – and those who are serious about quitting need to know both sides of this debate. Again this is only my opinion but using Sub to kick an addiction to a class 3 narcotic like Norco (Vicodin) would be like using an atomic bomb when you only need a hand grenade. Even heavy doses of Hydrocodone can be tapered and then quit with only a week or two of withdrawal symptoms. However Sub withdrawals can last for months. As long as someone is taking Sub they will not have W/D’s but only a very few on this site have testified that they are glad they used Sub for their addiction. Many have said they felt deceived by the doctor who started them on Sub. Once hooked on Sub they felt helpless to free themselves from it. To add insult to injury, most have also stated that the doctor started them on a dosage that was far too high – thus increasing their potential addiction.
So, the point I want to make is – Buyer beware – get educated as much as possible – read all you can and then decide how you will get clean. I encourage all who are considering using Sub to read the post that Avisg put together on the Health Pages --- The title is “Members experiences coming off of Suboxone.” I do appreciate the posts of those who successfully used Sub to come off of their DOC - I hope that more people will continue to post their own experience with Sub --- This is a great forum to air all sides of this issue and I hope it will continue. All the best.
So, the point I want to make is – Buyer beware – get educated as much as possible – read all you can and then decide how you will get clean. I encourage all who are considering using Sub to read the post that Avisg put together on the Health Pages --- The title is “Members experiences coming off of Suboxone.” I do appreciate the posts of those who successfully used Sub to come off of their DOC - I hope that more people will continue to post their own experience with Sub --- This is a great forum to air all sides of this issue and I hope it will continue. All the best.
Amen!!!Your very respectful person OC, anyone who knows you knows you have nothing but the best intentions for posting your experience with sub. My experience was the same as yours, very intense, but in the end a great lesson in what not to do. I wonder if it was called by its true name(Buprenorphine) if the same amount of people would turn to it. In my opinion the problem is with the marketing, although some people say they had no w/d's, Ive met many more that have questioned whether or not it was appropriate or not. In time I believe we will get a clearer understanding of how and when it should be used, atleast that is my hope. The fact the some people have stated that they suffered no w/d's does show that maybe there is some serious potential to suboxone, but until it becomes less about the money and more about the person, its hard to get any sub doctor to admit that it does have some serious flaws. I think its safe to say, in most cases, suboxone/subutex should be the very last line of defense for opiate detox, after all other methods have failed. Like you said knowledge is power, so this discussion needs to be ongoing and hopefully we can help build a better understanding of the correct schedules and tapering that should be done. Hope everyone is well, very good post oc.
I have been on sub for 2yrs. Before that I was using more than 15 bags of heroin a day with no end in sight. I would not go on meth because people told me it was even worse to come off of. That to me was worse than death and kept using for along time because of my fear.
Once I heard about sub, I was sceptical but was assured by my doc that I was going to be okay and to give it a chance. I did and I haven't used heroin since.
Is it a miracle drug? NO. But....it gave me a chance to slow down and and get my mind "right" and to put all that fear into perspective.
I am probably on the slowest ween ever!! I'm okay with that though because when it comes time for the inevitable WDs I'll be ready for them, no matter how easy or hard it is.
Like you said educate yourself on it.....but don't be scared of it.
Once I heard about sub, I was sceptical but was assured by my doc that I was going to be okay and to give it a chance. I did and I haven't used heroin since.
Is it a miracle drug? NO. But....it gave me a chance to slow down and and get my mind "right" and to put all that fear into perspective.
I am probably on the slowest ween ever!! I'm okay with that though because when it comes time for the inevitable WDs I'll be ready for them, no matter how easy or hard it is.
Like you said educate yourself on it.....but don't be scared of it.
Excellent and well put together discussion of sub - it has its place....but its being touted as a painless withdarawal from a few greedy Docs that are clueless to its reality......
Hi,
As a sub user since 6-24-08 I have felt the best I ever have in 28 years of addication.
Two really important points OC stated: People on hydros, I agree, sub is not the answer. Taper. Short term addication, I don't think sub is right. Really young kids 19's & even 20's to me.(unless there is a true need) For me and my friends that are on the sub program we all have long history of opiate abuse. heroin, oc's & morphine both in the 400mg a day range. My husband did the methodone route about 9 yrs ago ,practically died in detox but he relapse 10 months later after 4 yrs of the meth only. I am lucky that my insurance pays for our dr ov & the counseling & pills. I pay co pays. Even though I like my dr I am not dumb to the idea that he his making allot of money off of me from insurance companies. If I had to pay cash we would have had to hustle and to me that's the same as scamming for drugs. If you have insurance or state medicaid or ssi call and find out if you are covered for sub. It's always worth a try..I am now learning how not to react like an addict, . The counseling is great. If you are on sub counseling is a must, although I know for some it isn't. I am taking full advantage of it. So is my husband . We go alone or together sometimes if we are having a problem. If someone can't commit to counseling, or meetings, finding a sponser, and be ready to make some major changes in your behavior then suboxine isn't for you. Everyone needs a support system I truely believe. When you don't, relpase is higher chance. In my city, the subs that are on the street are in the hands of young guys and crack heads. If comes from a bad sub doctor, which is the
second thing OC said: they are making allot of money. The dr in our town is just the worst. He forces his patients to go to 12 steps meetings or he won't fill the script. Well that is against the law b/c it is taking away your freedom of choice of religion. he was told that his patients may attened any DRUG counsleing, not just 12 steps I know some people that reported him to the welfare hotline b/c he is taking money from welfare patients. I know for a fact that he is being investagted but it takes a long time for the whole process to take place. Hopefully he will lose his right to write sub's. His sub's are the most traded on the street. Plus he gives all his patients adderrol (sp) incase the sub makes them sleepy. Just another way to get more money b/c if subs make you tired, you don't need them. If they make you feel high, you don't need them. . I am very lucky to have a wonderful sub dr & counsler.that I see every 2 weeks. We are 110% committed to making this work for us. We will deal with tapering when the time comes.I am just starting to enjoy life and doing things I haven't done in yrs b/c of addication. I have painted 2 rooms, cleaned the carpet, the real way!! I hope of course that I don't have bad withdrawls , who doesn"t but for now after years of abusing myself I finally feel human so I am staying on it. Plus I had to put my 12 1/2 yr old shepard down 3 weeks ago. I wanted to die, glad I am on sub b/c if not I'd probably would have od. I am now going through the grieiving process.
I am taking 8mgs a day now. Started on 3 8mgs day then tapered to 2 now i am on one.
I have 2 friends that completed program. One 50 yrs the other 27yrs.Both at the end were taking crumbs 2 times a week till they were gone. Both felt slight "flu symptoms but neither of them got real sick.
great topic,
paaddict
As a sub user since 6-24-08 I have felt the best I ever have in 28 years of addication.
Two really important points OC stated: People on hydros, I agree, sub is not the answer. Taper. Short term addication, I don't think sub is right. Really young kids 19's & even 20's to me.(unless there is a true need) For me and my friends that are on the sub program we all have long history of opiate abuse. heroin, oc's & morphine both in the 400mg a day range. My husband did the methodone route about 9 yrs ago ,practically died in detox but he relapse 10 months later after 4 yrs of the meth only. I am lucky that my insurance pays for our dr ov & the counseling & pills. I pay co pays. Even though I like my dr I am not dumb to the idea that he his making allot of money off of me from insurance companies. If I had to pay cash we would have had to hustle and to me that's the same as scamming for drugs. If you have insurance or state medicaid or ssi call and find out if you are covered for sub. It's always worth a try..I am now learning how not to react like an addict, . The counseling is great. If you are on sub counseling is a must, although I know for some it isn't. I am taking full advantage of it. So is my husband . We go alone or together sometimes if we are having a problem. If someone can't commit to counseling, or meetings, finding a sponser, and be ready to make some major changes in your behavior then suboxine isn't for you. Everyone needs a support system I truely believe. When you don't, relpase is higher chance. In my city, the subs that are on the street are in the hands of young guys and crack heads. If comes from a bad sub doctor, which is the
second thing OC said: they are making allot of money. The dr in our town is just the worst. He forces his patients to go to 12 steps meetings or he won't fill the script. Well that is against the law b/c it is taking away your freedom of choice of religion. he was told that his patients may attened any DRUG counsleing, not just 12 steps I know some people that reported him to the welfare hotline b/c he is taking money from welfare patients. I know for a fact that he is being investagted but it takes a long time for the whole process to take place. Hopefully he will lose his right to write sub's. His sub's are the most traded on the street. Plus he gives all his patients adderrol (sp) incase the sub makes them sleepy. Just another way to get more money b/c if subs make you tired, you don't need them. If they make you feel high, you don't need them. . I am very lucky to have a wonderful sub dr & counsler.that I see every 2 weeks. We are 110% committed to making this work for us. We will deal with tapering when the time comes.I am just starting to enjoy life and doing things I haven't done in yrs b/c of addication. I have painted 2 rooms, cleaned the carpet, the real way!! I hope of course that I don't have bad withdrawls , who doesn"t but for now after years of abusing myself I finally feel human so I am staying on it. Plus I had to put my 12 1/2 yr old shepard down 3 weeks ago. I wanted to die, glad I am on sub b/c if not I'd probably would have od. I am now going through the grieiving process.
I am taking 8mgs a day now. Started on 3 8mgs day then tapered to 2 now i am on one.
I have 2 friends that completed program. One 50 yrs the other 27yrs.Both at the end were taking crumbs 2 times a week till they were gone. Both felt slight "flu symptoms but neither of them got real sick.
great topic,
paaddict
I only disagree with one thing oc said. I think using sub for oxy and other opiate addiction is a good tool to stop the routine of addiction. After 5 years of 200mgs a day of hydrocodone and many failed attempts at quitting the sub has helped me. I am productive at my job again. My life at home is normal again. I am living again. Now I know there will be a day that I will have to quit the sub. I will be ready for it. I have broken they cycle of addiction. I take sub once a day the same time I take my synthroid. I have to take synthroid for a hyperactive thyroid. I will have to take it for the rest of my life. So to me, taking the sub is just another daily routine for me. I am tapering very slowly and when I do get to the crumb I will continue to go slowly and hope that my withdrawls will not be to bad. I think alot of it is in the mind. I have tapered off of hydro before and almost had it beat but I was not educated and the cycle of addiction and cravings were to much and relapsed. Now one thing I do heavily agree on is the education. Please know what you are doing before you start suboxone.
Thanks OC good discussion. Sub is something that really needs to be thought about and learned about before starting. Ive shared my sub experience on this site many times and I have also been conflicted in what I want to say and how I want to say it and how I actually do say it. I never ever ever want to discourage someone from quitting drugs. It is the first most important decision of an addicts life. And I know that for some people it is a very necessary tool. However I strongly feel that I would not recommend sub for most people. Maybe I just had a different reaction than most (however reading this site and seeing others experiences coming off subs dictates I am pretty parallel to many). For me-- now at I think around 70 days off of subs after taking them for over two years--I am still having a really tough time with it. The initial physical withdrawal was like Ive said many times worse than any other detox I have been through. While on suboxone I truly got a sense of normal life back. It did indeed break the cycle of addiction, but it broke the cycle of the old addiction behaviors-- I still could not leave my house for a weekend without knowing I had the sub. I had to make sure I had it on me for my daily dose etc. So I did keep some behaviors. The only difference was it was only once a day. Not all day long-- so that did give me freedom. I am now learning that once an addict always an addict. I never craved on suboxone. However now being off it, I do find myself craving. Something. Anything sometimes. There is no 'healing' that happens with suboxone. Not unless you are getting acute therapy and really working on changing your life while on it and if you can do that, most people wouldnt need it. For me, all it did was inevitably delay withdrawal. Coming off suboxone is still the hardest thing Ive ever done and I suffer even now. I do not believe I would be as emotionally messed up and depressed had I just stopped painkillers, gotten the therapy and support and not gone on suboxone. I never expected the depression and emotional dsyphoria I suffer to this day now off suboxone. In this respect, perhaps I am different. I know myself and I know I was not like this before. Ive quit in the past and was not like this. I was never able to stay clean for long and Im doing it now and I attribute that to support, this forum and owning the fact that I am an addict which I had never done before. But I dont attribute it to suboxone. However, in the grand scheme of things, I do have friends who are pretty heavy heroine addicts who I try to talk into sub all the time. Depressed and dysphoric as I am I am still better off than being in the throes of a heroine addiction. So for sure, I agree whole-heartedly that sub has its place in the world.. but I dont agree with it being sold as a miracle. Its not. I hope and pray all the time for people on it that they have a better experience than me. Love to all.
Thanks for your comments Refusing -- You are one of the real 'Rocks' on the site who have returned to share your experience - and I am sure you have helped many others who come behind you. There is no doctor in the world who can say anything more powerful than someone who has actually "been there - done that" as you have. I hope you will stay strong -- You are a powerful voice that needs to be heard. Wish you all the best. GBU.
great post and ochooked as well as refusingbondage have helped so many with this choice...sub or no sub? and like mentioned i beleve it has saved many from HIV, jail, institution and death,,as methadone has as well....i would never wish a life of chasing drugs on the street which is really no life at all over choosing a maintenance narcotic...the forum has had so many 60-100 mg hydro users come on and get stuck tho who never tried to quit on their own and were put on 12- 24 mg of sub!...a friend who used to be on this forum for one...she was a 140 mg oxy user and was put on 32 mg of sub by an idot doctor..it almost killed her...she is now on methadone and resigned to her 20-30 mg a day dose...i remeber hopsing from my first days here and he relapsed over and over..now he sounds free..altho on sub he is still free in a way as he is not suffering anymore and beating himself up (dont know but doesnt sound like it hops)......just so much hype with this drug when it was getting popular and people did not know what they were doing...i realize how scary this drug can be..but also how good this drug can be..glad everybody doesnt fight about it anymore! LOL
I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in. I went to sub in May of this year after getting fed up with my vicodin habit. While it may not rank as bad as some on this site (10-12 7.5mg daily), I knew that if I didn't do something soon, bad things would happen (either jail, homelessness or death). Whatever the outcome, I believe sub can save lives. I certainly hope to get off soon, but it has at least given me the hope of recovery. I never felt that when I was in the vicious cycle of other opiates (yes, I realize sub is also an opiate). I realize now that I also have to work on the psychological part of addiction as well as the physical. But at least sub takes care of the physical. When you're on suboxone you don't have the cravings. Almost since the beginning, I have been able to get by on a very small dose (2mg or less), so I'm hoping w/ds won't be as bad. But even if they are, it's better than trying to extend my horrible existence on vicodin.
I started Sub last saturday AS A PAIN MANAGEMENT DRUG!! Anyone heard of this? I do not take it for addiction reasons. I have been on Roxycodone (45 to 100 mg's a day) for 10 months and vics and lortabs for 10 years. Back problems and kidney stones. My doc said to me that its the "perfect" drug " it gets rid of the pain with NO buzz, and isnt that what we all want?"
But my concern is, what if I get in a car accident or something and actually NEED an opiat? What if I have a kidney stone attack and Im writhing on the floor in pain? Im scared of this drug. It DOES help with my pain and I get NO buzz but when your in pain and you NEED to take something this isnt gonna cut it. And as you all know once your on it the opiats dont work. So now Im sitting in fear of the "next attack"...................Any view points?
But my concern is, what if I get in a car accident or something and actually NEED an opiat? What if I have a kidney stone attack and Im writhing on the floor in pain? Im scared of this drug. It DOES help with my pain and I get NO buzz but when your in pain and you NEED to take something this isnt gonna cut it. And as you all know once your on it the opiats dont work. So now Im sitting in fear of the "next attack"...................Any view points?
i didnt no all that much bout sub awhile ago and im just hearing 4 the 1st time when i came to this site bout week ago that there were even w/ds from sub so i guess i really dont no much at all but i do no that it got me to stop takn my norcos which no matter what had to stop. and i was wondering from oc that u said that people who were takn the norcos or hydros shouldnt even be on it i was just wondering why u thnk that i no sum people take sum pretty high doses i no a guy in my neighboor hood that takes between 90/100 a day no joke. i myself took between 30-40 a day for couple years every single day. so i guess do u thnk that theres a certain amount that should be considered to go on sub or just all of the people on norcs or hydros shouldnt be on it i was just curious of why u thnk that and if theres a cutoff as who should b on it??? i have been on sub for lil less than 3 weeks and doc got me on bout 22mgs a day i only take 16ish a day...
why do u say "actually need an opiate"..sub is an opiate? it is also used for pain...thing is as with any opiate u will build a tolerence to the pain control it provides after a while..everyone is different but it is used for pain as well
You should be concerned re what to do if you get in an accident and need major pain relief. I had to carry a medical ID card on me during my sub treatment in case of emergencies. I still have the dam thing -- I will type below what it states (there may be typos cause its a lot of typing..):
"ATTENTION HEALTH CARE PROVIDER:
This patient is taking SUBOXONE (Buprenorphine HCI/Naloxone HCI dihydrate sublingual tablets). Buprenorphine is a partial opiod agonist. In an emergency call 911 and call 1877 SUBOXONE
(other side of card)
ATTENTION HEALTH CARE PROVIDER:
This patient is taking a combination of buprenorphine, a partial opiate agonist, ,and naloxene, an opiod antagonist (naloxene is only clinically active when used parenterally). Patients taking buprenorphine may have a diminished response to opiate medications (including those for the management for cough or pain). Opiate containing preparations should be avoided when non-opiate therapy is available as an alternative.
In an emergency situation requiring pain relief in patients taking buprenorphine, a suggested plan of management is regional anesthesia, conscious sedation with a benzodiazepine, use of non-opiod anelgesics or general anesthesia.
In a situation requiring opiate analgesia, the dose of opiate required may be greater than usual. A raidly acting opiate analgesic which minimizes the duration of respiratory depression, should be used. The dose of opiod medication whould be titrated against this patients analgesic and psychological response, WITH CLOSE MONITORING BY TRAINED MEDICAL STAFF."
So yes, in a real emergency situation I guess the hospital can sedate you, etc but buprenorphine is nothing to fool around with.
"ATTENTION HEALTH CARE PROVIDER:
This patient is taking SUBOXONE (Buprenorphine HCI/Naloxone HCI dihydrate sublingual tablets). Buprenorphine is a partial opiod agonist. In an emergency call 911 and call 1877 SUBOXONE
(other side of card)
ATTENTION HEALTH CARE PROVIDER:
This patient is taking a combination of buprenorphine, a partial opiate agonist, ,and naloxene, an opiod antagonist (naloxene is only clinically active when used parenterally). Patients taking buprenorphine may have a diminished response to opiate medications (including those for the management for cough or pain). Opiate containing preparations should be avoided when non-opiate therapy is available as an alternative.
In an emergency situation requiring pain relief in patients taking buprenorphine, a suggested plan of management is regional anesthesia, conscious sedation with a benzodiazepine, use of non-opiod anelgesics or general anesthesia.
In a situation requiring opiate analgesia, the dose of opiate required may be greater than usual. A raidly acting opiate analgesic which minimizes the duration of respiratory depression, should be used. The dose of opiod medication whould be titrated against this patients analgesic and psychological response, WITH CLOSE MONITORING BY TRAINED MEDICAL STAFF."
So yes, in a real emergency situation I guess the hospital can sedate you, etc but buprenorphine is nothing to fool around with.
I say "need an opiate" because Sub has a ceiling. If you have ever had a kidney stone you would know what I mean. And with Sub blocking the receptors you cant take an opiate for break through pain....................Thats what Im scared of.
This is the basically the chance you take. I am not generally pro-sub anymore now that Im off of it, but I was happy to be on it when I started and the doctor and I discussed this issue re sub-- and to me, it was worth writhing on the floor in pain to achieve sobriety. Nothing is easy.. Especially when dealing with addiction. However you said you take it for pain management - whcih it is not approved for in the US so its a bit confusing. You should certainly talk to you doctor about it. Good luck.
From what I understand Buprenex is the form buprenorphine that is used for pain and I dont believe it is legal in US. I know the buprenex comes as injections, but again buprenorphine for pain management in my opinion is not the best idea anyways. Like stated above if you have a serious condition that can cause breakout pain, you dont want to be suboxone, because your basicly powerless to stop it. I have chronic pain due to nerve damage and avascular necrosis and suboxone did nothing noticeable for my pain. I did have a compounded gel "neuroderm" ketamine, clonidine, lidocaine, gabapentin that did help with my pain while on sub. I also had to take lyrica occasionally although I cant stand that medication, for some reason lyrica impaired my memory and caused some signifigant weight gain. I know of others that it has really helped with little side effects, but I now just take it as needed because the side effects for me were bad. Take care E1.
Your correct it isnt "supposed" to be a pain med. But think about it, thats what it does with WDs, the same thing. So I give my doc credit for his insight. But Im afraid of the long term, which is what Im on, very long term managment. Im talking to my doc tomorrow and Im gonna lay it on the line.................
It is currently prescribed for pain in the european community ---- didnt touch my pain so I ditched it......wish something would be effective --- and addict / idiot proof...........
Definately wise to talk to your doctor. Suboxone does not alleviate the pain of withdrawal, what it does it take you out of withdrawal by feeding your body the opiates it is withdrawing from which I dont think is the same thing as alleviating pain.. Ah, it does get tricky though...
I am so glad i read this site,so far it is the only one i have found positive
for sub,s,,,,they saved my life,at the time i was sick of being sick,i was
broke from buying street drugs,ran all the prescriotions from my dr,
out,,i learn everything the hard way,i knodded on oxy,s,hit a parked car
so lucky i didnt kill anyone,,put in re had,not long enough as far as i
was concerned,but i loved it all,rehad,i learned alot,and found sub,s after
the dr made me go thru detox 3days,i spent more money on street drugs
than i ever did on sub,s,and i wasnt sick anymore,I could go to work,
and have a normal life, i knew eventually i will have to come off of these
but would deal with it when the time comes,i just needed my life back,
so i could take step be step ,,i was on 2 8mg aday down to 1 1/2,for 2 wks
then slower and slower,,,but i am tapering so slow, and giving myself credit,
to how far i have come,im scared to death,but doing it,,,having headaches,
and anxiety,,,but i will do it,,,wish you all the best in the world,,,,,,lin391
for sub,s,,,,they saved my life,at the time i was sick of being sick,i was
broke from buying street drugs,ran all the prescriotions from my dr,
out,,i learn everything the hard way,i knodded on oxy,s,hit a parked car
so lucky i didnt kill anyone,,put in re had,not long enough as far as i
was concerned,but i loved it all,rehad,i learned alot,and found sub,s after
the dr made me go thru detox 3days,i spent more money on street drugs
than i ever did on sub,s,and i wasnt sick anymore,I could go to work,
and have a normal life, i knew eventually i will have to come off of these
but would deal with it when the time comes,i just needed my life back,
so i could take step be step ,,i was on 2 8mg aday down to 1 1/2,for 2 wks
then slower and slower,,,but i am tapering so slow, and giving myself credit,
to how far i have come,im scared to death,but doing it,,,having headaches,
and anxiety,,,but i will do it,,,wish you all the best in the world,,,,,,lin391
So I met a guy at the beach who, after talkin to him about God for a little bit, told me he was addicted to roxys & heroine. He showed me the needle marks on his arm. I invited him to church, & gave him my number & he gave me his. He just called me like 15 minutes ago & told me that he has an opportunity to get 2 Suboxone for $12. He said that his dad, who had kicked him out of the house a week before I met him, told him that he could stay at his house during withdrawals. He asked me to pick him up in the morning & take him to buy the 2 Suboxone while he has this opportunity. He has no job, & he says he just wants to take this opportunity while its available. Should I take him or not?
Are you serious?????? Taking any man into your home that you have known for perhaps an hour is extremely dangerous. Period.
He has a father that said he would take this guy into his home while he is going thru W/d.......... you need to let his family help him and you need to think of your personal safety.
He has a father that said he would take this guy into his home while he is going thru W/d.......... you need to let his family help him and you need to think of your personal safety.
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