RYAN

YOU GUYS ARE STILL LISTENING TO HIM.  WATER TITRATION IS THE WAY GO...........

[heartfluttersflyawayplz]

ryan is a great guy he knows what he is talking about , hes helped out lots of people on here me for one if not for ryan i might still be in anxiety. am glad it worked for you and i hope your doing great but our way is not always the way for everyone.

[Raine9]

Oy vey, please let this one go, my friend.    

[Raine9]

Sure is, son.  And 311 does not f****** blow.

[fd11]

Ryan you are still trying to come off this Klonopin ****.  You give all the advice you want but the fact of the matter is that you can't even get off this ****.  You a med school drop out who thinks he knows it all and for the rest of you be sure to kiss his *** in this cult you all are in.

[Raine9]

I don't kiss anyone's as* and no offense to Ryan, (I do consider him a friend) but I really don't care for the med advice that he gives out on this forum because I'm not on meds.  I'm sure, though, the majority of his advice is pretty accurate.  He doesn't pull this stuff from thin air.  Even if I were on meds, I would rather consult with a doctor because I know Ryan is not a doctor.  EVERYONE should consult with their doctor.  He's also not a med school drop out.  But would probably make one hell of a doctor.

It's not about that and it's not about taking sides.  Fact of the matter is, I really don't care who's wrong or who's right.  If you disagree with someone, work it out and don't come on attacking.  You are both adults and shoud be able to resolve this maturely.  If you guys don't agree, then agree to disagree.

Peace.    

[fd11]

"Screw fifty years of legitimate research" - Now you’re talking.  Fifty years and all these f***in doctors are still uneducated when it comes to withdrawing from this s**t.  It just goes to show you that it is all about the money for these pharmaceutical companies and its people like you that fall right into their trap, talking about how this and that drug is good for you.  They spend more money advertising this s**t then they do researching it.  Hey a**hole wake you this **** alters your brain chemistry.  Also, thanks God you are not a betting man; because you would lose every time.  

[fd11]

(1) You are right, I don’t know anything about you nor do I care too.  Question how long were you on the Klonopin and how long did it take you to get off of it; for I can’t see you coming off so quickly.

(2) If you’re not claiming to be a medical doctor then please stop acting like one.  

(3) Those three others you are referring to are doing just great and thank you for caring.  There is no trap there, just a bunch a people who actually came off of Klonopin and other benzos successfully and are there to help.  Try not to pat your self on the back to much because I have seen many people from your cult on that site so obviously your main stream medical information is not helping all that much.  

(4) You may not claim to be a know-it-all, but you sure act like it.  Just wondering why you didn’t include the Ashton Manual in your list of major medical publications.

(5) Most doctors are uneducated when it comes to these drugs, and I was speaking about psychiatrist.  They don’t understand the withdrawal process and how it affects millions of people.  You must be special because you didn’t experience any side affects or withdrawals.      

(6) How could you sit here and say that benzodiazepines are well understood agents when millions can’t come of these drugs clean because of the lack of knowledge that these psychiatrist have.  As far as I am concerned, these benzodiazepines or SSRI’s don’t cure anything they just cover up the problem.  Also, I don’t care if the pharmaceutical company is a major one or the little guy on the market, they still don’t spend enough time researching what they are putting on the market.

(7) In my opinion, requesting Klonopin is either really brave or just stupid; knowing the risks involved.  I am glad at least I know of one person who had a great experience on this, because the other hundreds of people I’ve seen are having a hard time on it.  

(8) They don’t need to be water soluble.  You just need to be sure to get the residue out of the mixer; most of the pill is talc, and the particles will settle fairly rapidly at the bottom of the container. You have a good thirty seconds to adjust your dose before the particles settle.

(9) I though that you said this is mostly placebo and if you think and read about horror stories that they will happen.  So why do we need these benzodiazepines?  Clinical benefit, there is no benefit involved.  It is a proven fact that these benzodiazepines affect your central nervous system among other affects that could possible stay with you for life.  I don’t know about you, but I don’t see any benefit in that.  

Oh and as for the Klonopin that you claim to have come off of.  I don't believe that for one second and I still think you are on it matter of fact I know you are.  

[spade22]

"(8) They don’t need to be water soluble.  You just need to be sure to get the residue out of the mixer; most of the pill is talc, and the particles will settle fairly rapidly at the bottom of the container. You have a good thirty seconds to adjust your dose before the particles settle. "


a) According to the MSDS sheet, supplied by Roche, a typical Klonopin pill contains primarily: cellulose, and corn starch; the active ingredient, 6-(2-chlorophenyl)-9-nitro-2,5-diazabicyclo[5.4.0]undeca-5,8,10,12-tetraen-3-one aka clonazepam,  is present to an extent of <1.2%.  It does NOT contain "talc" as you claim.

b) Neither cornstarch, cellulose, nor clonazepam are water soluble.  Futhermore, said compounds have quite different densities.  This means:
A suspension of each compound in water will settle at a different RATE.  Just because the apparant "bulk" sedimentate takes "30 s" to settle that does NOT mean you have 30 s to adjust your dosage - this is utter nonsense.  The rate for the klonopin to settle could be in the order of seconds.

The point of a "titration" is to determine the EXACT concentration of a substance.  This is IMPOSSIBLE to do, with any reasonable degree of accuracy, when the substance in question is NOT soluble in the given solvent as is the case w/ klonopin in water.  Particulates will begin to settle IMMEDIATELY after aggitation; the effect of this, is a concentration GRADIENT.  Therefore, the "titration method" is  highly inaccurate and this is complicated further since the klonopin is the minor constituent of the pill and several other water-insoluble components comprise the bulk of the mixture.

You make several assumptions with this "titration", aka water suspension, method which introduce a huge error in the accuracy of this method; there is a reason why this is not a viable method and information on this can only be found online.


"... I don't believe that for one second and I still think you are on it matter of fact I know you are.   "

Since you apparently posess psychic abilities, why is it that you elected to take Klonopin in the first place? Did you, and director of pharmacology at NYU Medical Center who was treating you, fall into a trap??????

[fd11]

“The point of a "titration" is to determine the EXACT concentration of a substance.  This is IMPOSSIBLE to do, with any reasonable degree of accuracy;”

And dry cutting a pill will guarantee reasonable accuracy.  I don’t think so.  My doctor has even said that by dry cutting will make it very difficult to come off any benzo.

"Since you apparently possess psychic abilities, why is it that you elected to take Klonopin in the first place? Did you, and director of pharmacology at NYU Medical Center who was treating you, fall into a trap??????"

I didn't elect to take this s**t.  I was put on this to wean off of Paxil which an uneducated psychiatrist put me on because I had one panic attack.  Needless to say I don’t see that doctor anymore.   If I knew then what I’ve know now, I would have refused it, and there was no trap here sweet heart.  I presented all the data and information that I could gather to my doctor.  He even went as far as to take a look at the Ashton Manual and he decided that this could be a good process to come off this medication that is prescribed to some many to quickly.

“Particulates will begin to settle IMMEDIATELY after agitation; the effect of this is a concentration GRADIENT.  Therefore, the "titration method" is highly inaccurate and this is complicated further since the Klonopin is the minor constituent of the pill and several other water-insoluble components comprise the bulk of the mixture.”

Yes I know Klonopin is not water soluble and the particles will settle fairly rapidly on the bottom of the container. Just be sure to get the residue out of the bottom of the mixer and the graduated cylinder.  The advantage to this method is that as long as you have a sufficient supply of pills, you can reduce at your own rate and make tiny reductions. The brain is not going to be able to differentiate between a dose of .5 mg of Klonopin and .498 mg. The cumulative cuts will add up, and if you need to take a break and hold, then you can do that easily with this method.  It is a gentile way to taper.  By dropping at ¼ of the pill every 4-6 weeks doesn’t give the brain enough time to heal or the GABA enough time reproduce itself naturally.

Oh and one last thing, no one asked for your input.  If I was writing to you then I would have posted to you.  

[Mark TX]

A couple thoughts about this thread:

1.  On most message boards this would be considered a 'call out' thread and be deleted by the mods.

2.  Using profane language or asterisks to conceal profane language doesn't add credibility to an argument or to anyone's rebuttal, or to their future posts.

3.  Advising people on an internet forum that they shouldn't be relying on the Internet for information, especially when you are in the business of handing our information on the Internet, strikes me as a little counter-intuitive, at best.

4.  There seems to be no shortage of posters here who seem unaware of the proper dosaging of benzodiazepines they've been prescribed, or of the likelihood of dependency (addiction), or of the risks associated with abrupt withdrawal, or of the very careful and lengthy process that must be followed if and when they choose to cease using the drug.  It might be tempting to blame these patients for not carefully investigating the particulars of the drugs they were prescribed.  On the other hand, a reasonable person might ask whether the medical professionals are doing enough to educate their patients about these issues.  In any event, one can't help but wonder why so many people are searching for answers on the Internet...

mark

[spade22]

fd11:

"And dry cutting a pill will guarantee reasonable accuracy.  I don’t think so.  My doctor has even said that by dry cutting will make it very difficult to come off any benzo."

As I posted earlier, the point of a "titration" is to determine the EXACT concentration of a substance.  This is IMPOSSIBLE to do, with any reasonable degree of accuracy, when the substance in question is NOT soluble in the given solvent as is the case w/ klonopin in water.
What does the accuracy of the dry cutting method have to do with the wet suspension method?


"I didn't elect to take this s**t. "

Yes you did.  See Ryans comment for further comment.


'The brain is not going to be able to differentiate between a dose of .5 mg of Klonopin and .498 mg. "

Unfortunately, neither will this method.  To achieve this particular dosing (0.498 mg from a 0.500 mg pill) the method must have a level of accuracy that is substantially LESS than the 0.4% you cut your dose by.  Depending on the kind of measuring cylinder you have, your error will range from 1-5%; yours is likely to be on the higher end.  Anyway,  for the sake of argument, "If" the rest of the procedure did not introduce any level of error into this measurement (CLEARLY it does, and this error is HIGHER than that from the measuring cylinder) then the error in measuring out a volume of pill suspension is already HIGHER (1-5%) than the tolerance level (less than 0.4%, ideally 0.02% is what you would aim for).

"Oh and one last thing, no one asked for your input.  If I was writing to you then I would have posted to you."

Clearly your lack of understanding regarding the concept of water "titration" (on an insoluble material) extends to how a PUBLIC forum works.

[fd11]

“So, in other words, you were placed in four-point restraints and Clonazepam was forced down your throat against your will. Highly unlikely, which means that YOU placed the tablet into your mouth on your own free will. Thus, you elected to take Clonazepam. If you did not understand the particulars about the drug, you should've inquired about them. Thus, the pity party is over. Take some God damn responsibility for your own actions.”

First of all I have never heard of these drugs until about a year ago.  I never had to take medication before so like many doctors and people out there, I was uneducated about it, my mistake for taking a doctors word on it (“As you say, consult your doctor first”.  Look where I am now, posting to people I don’t even know looking for answers).  Second of all when I wanted to get off the Paxil I was told that this is the only way to do it.  There is no way to wean off of Paxil unless you cross over with another drug which makes it easier to get off, once again taking my doctors word for it.  SO NO, I DIDN”T ELECT TO TAKE THIS S***.  Lastly no one is asking for your or anyone else’s pity.

“You do realize that Paroxetine also carries withdrawal phenomena? You should also realize that what ever disorder you were being treated for may have reemerged upon the cessation of Paroxetine and Clonazepam. Reemergence of the original disorder and symptomatology accounts for the majority of the supposed "withdrawal phenomena".

I have been off the Paxil for 5 months now so I really don’t believe that the Paxil would have anything to do with it.  I haven’t had a Panic Attack since that first day which was 14 months ago.  So I can say that this all very well be drug related.

“IF (and that's a big if) Clonazepam withdrawal represented all of the problems that you have described here in the past, 1/8 mg wafers are readily available to help assist you. Thus, there is no need to "dry cut" the tablets, and there is certainly no reason to use bizarre, unapproved methods for discontinuing the drug. This is particularly true when the solvent is an incompatible with the agent to be titrated or discontinued.”

I truly believe that this is all withdrawal because I never felt good or stable on either the Paroxetine or Clonazepam. The side affects just kicked my a**.  I was unaware that there are 1/8 wafers available to help with the withdrawal process.  I will have to speak with my doctor and ask him why I wasn’t told about this.

As for your other comments, I am starting to become confused because I don’t have any of the symptoms of a panic attack and I believe that the why I feel the way I do is because I am on a drug that I shouldn’t be on.  My problem is that I have gone to 4 different physiatrists and they have all done wrong by me.  This current doctor is the only doctor that is willing to work with me.

[fd11]

I am not going to even waste my breath on you.

[fd11]

Mark

You know what, I agree with you and I apologize if I used any profanity on this form that offended anyone.  I should have been the bigger person.  

Everyone here talks about the internet and how the water titration is not a valid way to withdraw from benzos or other drugs.  Then tell me why I have seen more people have success with the water titration and why my doctor thinks it is a good idea.  Also I never see any information about some one dry cutting or use the wafers to come of this stuff successfully.  This is what is confusing.  The only one that I have heard to come of this stuff without the water titration is supposedly Ryan.

[spade22]

"I am not going to even waste my breath on you. "

The fact you are on a public forum spreading misinformation, that has no credence, and could be potentially dangerous warrants intervention.  From a scientific standpoint, the "method" you present is FLAWED as any individual with basic scientific knowledge will tell you.  The level of accurancy involved with your measuring devices, can not ensure an ACCURATE cut of the klonopin for a start.

Whether or not you choose to "waste your breath on me" is something I couldnt care less about.  However, I DO care that you spreed rubbish which could put people in a dangerous situation.  I AM prepared to waste my breath on you to refute what scientifically, inaccurate,  statements you make so anyone who has the misfortune of coming across your posts on the "water titration method" are actually informed on the subject.

You begin this thread as an ATTACK on another member, then proceed to make wild assumptions and accusations and you demonstrate your immaturity with your choice of language.  It is quite clear, the only reason you are posting in this forum is to create an argument.  This is a SUPPORT forum - use it for what it was intended.

[heartfluttersflyawayplz]

fd11 you have a problem, and we were all doing just fine here without your input sorry to say that. not sure why your attacking ryan but none of us on this form really cares what you have to say we all know ryan and really look foward to his commits and help.  looks like you need to move on and yes you have offended me by useing the GD word so plz dont do it again thats my lord your talking about.

[cathyj]

[Mark TX]

I'm not familiar with the UK group people are referencing... who or what is this?

mark

[cathyj]

This thread caught my eye, and I accidentally pushed the "post comment" button on my computer. I have no interest in being part of this thread. But, for the record, I'm not a "sockpuppet from that UK cult." That's a very odd thing to say about someone.

[fd11]

Not from the UK.  

[fd11]

My problem is closed minded people; like some on this forum, and when you mean the GD word do you mean GOD or Ryan.      

[fd11]

The UK group that Ryan is referring to is located at w w w. benzosupport.  org

[fd11]

Why would you call her a sockpuppet you inbreed?  I though the name calling was going to stop.  She didn't say or do anything to you.  It just goes to show you that both she and I took your advice as well as a couple of other people and we all failed.  That is why 7 plus people from this website are currently doing that water taper.  I have news for you as well, if this is medically approved, why are there compound pharmacies that are doing this water titration method around the states and in the UK.  I was just speaking with a pharmacist at CVS and I asked him if it would be possible to do the titration method with Klonopin and his response was sure but you need to make sure you know what you are doing, be very precise and to be careful.    

[fd11]

I am done and won't be back to this site so don't even bother posting anything to me because you will be wasting your time.

[OneScaredBuckeye]

If people don't like what Ryan posts, then they shouldn't bother reading it.  It's as simple as that.  He doesn't claim to be a medical doctor or an authority, only educated.  Furthermore, he can't prescribe drugs, only a fully licensed doctor can do that.  Personally, I enjoy Ryan's posts and find them information.  If I don't agree with all of them, then I just don't agree, but they're still information and I learn many things.  However, I get my medication and medical advice from my doctor.  I might ask him about something Ryan has posted, but in the end, my doctor and I make the decision together.

It's not necessary to start namecalling on this forum.  It certainly shows me that I wouldn't want to know the person doing the namecalling.

[Mark TX]

Funny but true story.

Several years ago... well after I'd started klonopin for panic attacks, I had a very negative reaction to an over-the-counter cold medication.  I was aware of my sensitivity to cold medications containing pseudophedrin, but made the mistake of taking Alka Seltzer Plus.  Within 30 minutes, I was in an ambulance on the way to the hospital.

I explained to the ER physicians what medications I was on, and what over-the-counter drug I'd taken, and that I'd had a severe reaction to Robitussan several years earlier.  They kept me in the ER for about an hour until I felt better and my family came to pick me up.

Before I left, I consulted with the physician, who assured me I was had simply had a panic attack.  I asked what I should take for my flu symptoms.  Her response?  "Whatever you were taking before was probably good."

Caution.  Question EVERYTHING an MD tells you.  And be even more skeptical of diagnoses and treatment recommendations doled out by experts on Internet forums.

mark

[Mark TX]

Make that phenylpropanolamine, not pseudopehdrin.  The phenylpropanolamine was discontinued shortly after my ER trip.  I guess I wasn't the only one who didn't react well to it.

=)

[fd11]

You are right, I am having a difficult time, as well as confused.  I also posted again to find out what is going on with me.  I hear how great the water titration is and then I hear from you and a couple off others that it is not the valid way to taper.  I assumed that all this stuff I was going through was from the meds.  I do feel much better since I have been cutting; the blurred vision, depression and other minor things have disappeared.  My doctor did approve of it (the water titration), that wasn’t BS.  I had asked my doctor about Diazepam when I wanted to come off the Paxil and was told that Klonopin is the ideal drug to cross over with.  I was always a person of humor and kindness.  Now I feel like a monster because I can't get out of this predicament.  I feel trapped.  In the being I didn't want to use drugs and every doctor I went to see, right away wanted to prescribe something so I would say forget it and go to another doctor (4 in total).  So then I was told that it would make the healing process quicker so I agreed.  As you know I am not a fan of any drugs but do realize some people need them.  All I am trying to do is figure out how to get back to my normal self again and most importantly be there for my wife and son when he is born.  I never imagined starting a marriage and a family like this.  It is so hard to find a doctor that knows what he is doing.  This physiatrist that I am seeing now is considered one on the best in NY and I went out of my insurance plan and pay this guy $120 dollars a week (15 minutes) for him to keep prescribing the Klonopin so I have enough to wean off of it.  I guess I need to find someone else.  

Hey listen I sincerely apologize if I have offended or hurt your feelings in any way.  As for Cathyj, she is a good person and she is going through a tough time as well.  I know you are extremely intelligent person and I thank you for those last two posts, it really put everything in perspective for me.  I need to come up with a plan to get my self back to normal.

Thanks again
Dominick

[OneScaredBuckeye]

<>

Although this guy's tests may have come back okay, but someone who is smoking, chewing tobacco, taking diet pills, drinking every night, and not getting adequate sleep and exercise is definitely not "extremely healthy."  In fact, a person doing all that is putting his very life in peril and ruining his health.  And a person with those problems is in not state to begin a marriage and possibly bring children into the world.  I know that sounds judgmental, but really, it's just my opinion.

As for medications and how to stop them, I don't think there's any one way that works for everyone.  I stopped Sinequan abruptly (I was only taking 25 mg. a day, though) with no bad side effects.  I stopped Valium abruptly, after many years of use, with no withdrawal.  I stopped Paxil 40 mg. at bedtime abruptly because of a medical problem after two or three weeks of use and I did have insomnia and vivid dreams for two weeks, then everything was fine.  As I've said before, I don't recommend anyone stop any psychotropic drug abruptly, like I did.  I think I'm just one of the fortunate and lucky people who don't become either phsycially or psychologically addicted.  I have no idea why I didn't have more withdrawal symptoms, but I'm certainly glad I didn't.

[fd11]

First - you know nothing about me so please don't judge me.  If you knew anything about me or my life then I would ok it.   I treat my wife, friends and family exceptional well and when it comes to them, I am extremely loving and caring.    

Second - I was doing all of this because of the stress that comes with my job.  I was trying to find ways to relieve the stress and possibly work harder, obviously that wasn't the way to go.  I have worked entirely too hard to get were I am at in this point of my career and all I could think about is supporting my family and making sure they have everything that they need to be healthy and happy.  When you are what they label a work alcoholic, these are the things that you can fall victim too.

Third - I know your not perfect, because no one is, so don't sit hear like you have never made a mistake before when it came to something in your life that you may regret.  Yes that is something in my past that I regret.

Just to end this; I haven’t had a cigarette in 18 months, a drink in 14 months nor have I done the chewing tobacco in 14 months.  I used to drink once a month if that, when I felt fine.  This excessive drinking only came about 3 months before I had my first panic attack.  

I am truly happy to hear that you were able to quit all those drugs abruptly with no side affects and yes you are the lucky one, not all of us are as lucky as you.  I also hope that your test and medically issue come out fine.

[fd11]

Also just to point out that I have done every CT scan, MRI's, extensive blood work and numerous other tests and not one problem.  I also would like to ad that I live an extremely healthy lifestyle (diet etc.), so to answer you no I am not ruining my health and I always lived my life like this.  Just when I started my new position at work 3 years ago was when I first started to not take care of my self like I always did.

[ajrenalli]

what I find disturbing is the fact Ryan actually advises people regarding the dosages and times they should "wean " their meds..... he is not qualified, nor does he know.......the co morbidity, the confounding factors, or the case history............right or wrong, I could do many things  for which I am not licensed, and better than many licensed, but I know my limits.  the very fact that medication is important to this extent, is a call for co depnedency and a need that I think can be better met in other, more productive ways.............certainly, one should not rely on drugs to live a normal life, unless there is a physiologoical need.  And there is no proof of that regarding these addictive drugs.  best wishes.  AJ  

[fd11]

I  would just like to start by saying I hope all goes well for you on November 7th.  I will be praying for you and my friend you are indeed a great person to even bother posting back to me, especially after me being such and immature a**hole.  

I really haven’t had any panic attacks, just 2 in the last year or so; one being massive that Wednesday.  I still get to the point were my calves go so numb that it is hard to stand.  I feel like I am starting to have a panic attack, but it doesn’t happen, just a lot of side affects.  When I feel stressed or even think about work, everything gets worse.  Now I have been doing that water titration for the last 2 weeks and I don’t know if I should go back to cutting or cross over to something else.  If it is Panic attacks, I really don’t want to be on any meds either way.  I want to do this naturally with will power.  I guess you can say in a way I am afraid to come off the drug but I truly feel I need to get off.  I don’t feel the way I did in the being.  I took that 3 month leave from work because I couldn’t drive and I would lye in bed crying and was afraid to go out of my house.  I do think that this Klonopin is not doing me any justice.  The Paxil was just killing me and I feel they should have put me on something milder.  Do you still think I could be suffering from the withdrawal process from the Paxil?

I used to be the type of person were I could just get up and do anything, playing football on the weekends with the guys, taking my wife to dinner or shopping.  Now I don’t know if I am going to wake up feeling ok or just out of it.  I was always a strong willed person and now I feel like there is something controlling me.  I just want my son to have a healthy set of parents.  I don’t want him to have the childhood I had.  My father was put in jail when I was 3 years old and got out when I was 22.  I never knew him, met him when I was 23 and he died of a drug overdose when I was 24.  I was taken away from my mother (drug attic and alcoholic) when I was 6 years old and lived with my grandmother until I was 10 when she pasted away.  Then moved in with my uncle and his wife until I was 15 years old and then left home putting myself through high school and then college.  So I don’t know if I was hiding from something my whole life or if it was from my drinking, smoking and diet pill tirade.  Like I said, just confused on what steps to take.

[fd11]

Thanks Ryan, there was no need to apologize, I was the instigator and you were just defending yourself.  That to me is honorable.  I will be speaking to my doctor sometime this week to come up with some kind of a solution.  

Paxil –

I didn’t know that Glaxo-Smithklike was being sued.  I will have to read about that.  I remember reading some where that Paxil can cause permanent damaged to certain parts of the brain.  I don’t know how true this is though.  Also, how long until the withdrawals would subside with the discontinuation of Paxil, I know you said months, but I have been off for 5 months so in your opinion do you think that isn’t the case for me?    

Panic Attacks –

I will give you an example: I had that first one about 14 months ago (muscle tension, hyperventilating, numbness - the works).  Now since then I have never had an issue catching my breath.  Now on last Wednesday when I had that massive Panic attack I started to hyperventilate and since then I have been having issues trying to catch my breath.  Now can these symptoms last as long as a week?  I have finally differentiated the difference from being medication dizzy and anxiety dizzy which for me is a plus.

Clonazepam and Klonopin –

Now I know that Clonazepam is the generic form of Klonopin, but do they have the same exact ingredients and if I were to wean off of the Clonazepam (which I am), how would I go about that.  Do I go back to .375 were I dried cut the pill and stayed for 6 weeks and start to taper from there, or do those wafer come in a dose of .125, .25, .375 and .5 and start from one of them.  What would 1/8 of .5MG of Clonazepam be?

[fd11]

I just got off the phone with the psychiatrist and I asked him about those 1/8 Klonopin wafers.  He said there is no such thing, the loses dose is the .5Mg that he is prescribing me now.  I also confronted him in regard to the water titration and why he said that it would be ok to do this and he just keeps telling me that it is fine to do.  I then asked him, that this process in not medically valid then why is a person involved in the medical field ok this.  His response, “when would you like to come in.”  So I made my appointment for this Friday.  Now I could do one or two things, I could kick the ever loving s**t out of him or I was wondering what I could say to him to get my point across.

[suzi-q]

FYI...my sister joined that class action lawsuit against the makers of Paxil and got a settlement (I think it was under 100 dollars)  however, neither of us knew that there was such horrible withdrawal from it.  My sister tried coming off, but then went back on...couldn't do it.  I never even tried coming off after what I saw what she went through.  If I knew about the withdrawal, I am not sure either way if I would have started taking it back then (I was feeling so horrible and would have done ANYTHING)  BUT, it would have been nice to know.  I guess I will keep the company in business the rest of my life.

[fd11]

By all means, if you can get off of it then do so.  

[tanns]

No offense but you need a new doctor.  If you just google Klonopin wafers, all sorts of info is out there.  Plus, any pharmacist can confirm that they exist.  Your doctor is not only misinformed but he doesn't seem to be doing you any good.   I'd start searching for a new one, unless you want to wait until after Friday when you can kick the s**t out of him first!  Kidding, of course.

I wish you the very, very best of luck in over coming this, it is hard and frustrating.

Take Care, t.

[OneScaredBuckeye]

I don't understand all the problems over Paxil withdrawal.  I was on 40 mg. every bedtime and I had to stop cold turkey because of a medical problem.  I didn't even want to stop.  The Paxil was working so well, I had to stop, no "if," "ands," or "buts" about it.  For two weeks, I could barely sleep, even with Ambien, and when I did sleep, it wasn't good sleep and was filled with vivid dreams (not nightmares, but strange, unsettling dreams - I'd heard Paxil, itself caused that, but it never happened to me while on Paxil).  I felt a little "down," but nothing significant.  In two weeks, I was back to myself again.  My little sister stopped it by slowly reducing the dosage and she, too, had no problems.  She was on it for probably a year or more.  Are you sure you all aren't giving up too soon?  I can attest to the fact that Paxil leaves no permanent problems.

Maybe it's me who's the anomaly.  I've never had any significant trouble stopping any drug and never craved one afterward.  I don't think people should stop cold turkey, but it seems to work for me.  I think you're going to have to accept the fact that stopping any drug is going to feel bad for awhile.

[fd11]

I agree with you 100%.  I need to find a new doctor.  That is a great idea, I will ask the pharmacist.  Thanks.  

[suzi-q]

I guess I am just not ready to go through any types of withdrawals...I am also scared that I will go back to feeling like I did before medication.  Of course, if there was a health reason to stop, I would. and then deal with it if I had to...

[fd11]

I have a question for you, where you on Xanax, Klonopin or any other SSRI or Benzo at the time or after the sudden stoppage of Paxil?

Everyone is different.  I smoked cigarettes and drank you to 3 cups of coffee a day and one morning decided to quit and never went back.  That never bothered me, but my aunt tried to stop the coffee and she would break out in sweats and get dizzy.  Maybe this is why I feel the way I do today – LOL.  That was a year and a half ago.  You are extremely lucky because I have never heard of someone just stopping a drug like that and they were fine.

[fd11]

Hey if you are comfortable, then that is all that matters.  

[suzi-q]

Very true...if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[fd11]

I just got back from speaking with the pharmacist and I asked him about the lower dose of Klonopin wafers and he gave me a print out to give to my doctor.  Also, I know your are all going to nuts but I asked him about the water titration and if he thought is was ok to do and he said that is fine.  So this is why I am confused; doctors and pharmacist telling me that the water taper is ok and everyone else is telling me that it is not.  Where can I get concrete information regarding the taper is not valid so I can show them.   Thanks

[fd11]

They have the klonopin tablet and the wafers in smaller doses.  

[Raine9]

Glad you kids are finally getting along :)

[fd11]

“The mere fact that he wasn't aware of the existence of Klonopin (and generic Clonazepam) wafers is disturbing, particularly given the fact that he is the "director of pharmacology". Any major pharmacy would stock these. The purpose of the wafers is two-fold: (1) They may be used as-needed for anticipatory anxiety (or during a panic attack), and (2) To aid in the discontinuation of the tablets. I wasn't aware that the tablet form is available in dosages under 0.5 mg, but that is good to know.”

^End quote

I couldn’t agree more.  He, believe it or not is highly recommended and this scares me.  As for the tablet, I am pretty sure there is a lower dose in a tablet form unless I am mistaking.  The pharmacist gave me an information sheet that reads exactly like this:

# Drug Description
1 Clonazepam 0.5 MG Tablet APO
2 Clonazepam 0.5 MG Tablet IVX
3 Clonazepam 0.25 MG DIS TAB PAR
4 Clonazepam 0.25 MG DIS TABLBRR
5 Clonazepam 0.5 MG DIS TABLEBRR
6 Clonazepam 0.125 MG DIS TABPAR
7 Clonazepam 1 MG DIS TABLET PAR
8 Clonazepam 0.5 MG DIS TAB PAR

Now what the above info means, I have no idea.  Also thanks for the link; I will be bringing this to his attention.  My wife is actually coming with me so there is no police activity - LOL.  I am sick of getting jerked around by these doctors.

Thanks Again
Dominick

[fd11]

It is getting so happy in here i might have to send Ryan some roses.  LOL

[Raine9]

He likes vintage muscle cars.  

[spade22]

I don't know what some of those abbreviations mean, but from the list you provided it looks like Klonopin is available in 1/8 and 1/4 mg doses.

Another point to discuss w/ your doctor is the "accuracy" of the method.  Simple ask how you are supposed to obtain the required precision of measurement when the instruments (measuring cylinder or syringe) have a high error associated w/ them; take it from someone with a PhD in chemistry, 14 years experience, and over 5 years teaching gen chem and organic chemistry.  Then of course bring up the fact klonopin (and the inactive ingredients) is insoluble in water - this makes it impossible to obtain a uniform suspension which makes the method even more inaccurate.

Finally, Ryan wrote:
"He likely knows that titrating Klonopin via water doesn't actually work, although I doubt that he'd admit it. I think his main goal is to take your money, and get you out of his office ASAP"

I agree with part of this statement - the psychiatrist  is probably just out to get your money.  In terms of him "knowing" the water titration method doesn't work?  This is debatable.... he didn't know what dosings of klonopin were available which leads me to believe he isnt as intelligent/book smart as one might assume.

[Raine9]

You have 14 years of experience?  You're 32 right?  How old were you, when you earn your PhD?  Goodness...

[Mark TX]

It is nice to see everyone getting along.  I think what we all need to remember is that we all share a common problem.  We might disagree on the exact nature and causes... and very likely that's because it's a little different for each of us.  No doubt my anxiety was triggered by some factor different than what triggered other's.  And perhaps treatment that works well for me might not work well for others, and vice versa.  And I've had my own share of misinformation coming to this site.  I'm grateful for those who've helped me clarify my misunderstandings.  But I'm still skeptical of every post I read, no matter how qualified any of you seem.  I visited my GP today and it was pretty apparent that she has no idea how to wean someone off klonopin, but she has little problem advising me to take it, or refilling the script.   So I think it's wise to ask questions... and keep asking if you don't understand or don't agree.  Because very often disagreements are based on lack of information, or incomplete or erroneous information... and the best way to sort it out is to keep talking like adults.

mark

[OneScaredBuckeye]

To answer your question, no nothing else at the time, just the Paxil, 40 mg. at bedtime.  I did take Ambien after I stopped the Paxil because I had a hard time sleeping for more than three hours at a time, but I think I only took took pills because they didn't help much.  After two weeks, I was fine.  I think this is the exception rather than the rule, though.  I think most people have a harder time and I'm lucky where drugs are concerned.  

And I wasn't judging you by any means.  I don't judge anyone unless they really do something terrible, like deliberately hurt another person or something similar.  I understand that you were only trying to help a very terrible problem.  I'm glad to hear you managed to stop smoking and drinking and taking diet pills.  To me, that shows you're very strong and can overcome this latest problem, too.  It might be hard, but I have no doubt stopping smoking and drinking is very, very hard.  If you can do that, you can do just about anything.  I wish you the best.

[OneScaredBuckeye]

I mean to only took two Ambien.  They didn't work.

[spade22]

I count the time I started studying chemistry at  university as experience, lol.  I have 8 years - post PhD experience in chemistry.  Im certainly not a medical doctor, but contribute to this forum where I can.

[fd11]

I wish you all the best as well.  Thanks

[fd11]

As of now, I am doing that water titration.  What would you say I need to do to start cutting and weaning off?  Do I go back to .375 MG and start to go down again or do I start at .25MG (maybe cross-over to another med?).  Either way I want off; I feel I am mentally strong enough to deal with this naturally (If I even have a Panic Disorder?). I have been at or below .375MG for the last 2 months now (6 weeks of dry cutting and 2 weeks of water titration).  What would you or anyone else suggest I do to get off of Klonopin?  Thanks

[fd11]

Ok, I will discuss those two options with my doctor.  Now since I am affected by the Klonopin side effects, can I take .125 in the morning and .25 at night only because I have to drive to work and sometimes it can take me up to two hours?  

As for now, I have been having a really hard time breathing everyday since my Panic Attack a week ago.  Do you recommend that I go up to .375MG until I see him, because I have a huge project at work coming up and I need to start prepping for this tomorrow?  

Also, I heard that Valium is the worse thing to take.  I brought it up to my doctor and all she said was “well I wouldn’t recommend that because back in the 60’s people had an extremely difficult time coming off that stuff.”  

Thanks Again
Dominick
  

[fd11]

Hey ryan,

I know you came off the Klonopin, but are you on any other benzo and if so do you like that one better and what is it.  I need to get off this stuff.

Thanks
Dominick

[OneScaredBuckeye]

Thank you and good luck, Dominick.  I have no doubt you'll make it as you've already accomplished some very difficult things.  I think finding a good doctor is going to be one of the keys.  Best of luck to you and your family.