Iron: What gets it down?

Okay, I'm probably posting too much. So I'll ease up after this one. But I've seen some suggestions by forum members about how to get down iron levels, and I thought it would be a nice idea if everyone who knew of some way to do it posted it so that we'd have a list of them. I'm into organizing things. I know it's annoying but I can't help it, it's a mania of mine.

Like, I saw a post from MerryBe about a drug named desferal or something that reduces iron and maybe could even replace plebotomy. She also mentioned that black tea binds iron. I didn't know either of these things. I've got high iron and i want to get it down, if possible before starting therapy.

There's this webpage I read (http://lefcms.lef.org/protocols/infections/hepatitis_c_01.htm) that says: " Despite substantial scientific evidence, however, few physicians implement iron-depletion therapy before beginning antiviral therapy. This partially accounts for the high failure rate of conventional drugs in eradicating the virus (Boucher E et al 1997; Martin-Vivaldi R et al 1997; Tsai NC et al 1997). So it seems like it might be important for me to start doing something now rather than later about my high iron, but I don't really know what to do. I mean, there's lactoferrin and IP6/Inositol as supplements, but there are also probably a lot of other things that reduce iron. I'd really like to know what they all are so I could decide what to take.

Maybe others would benefit from the same info.

So, if I'm not making too much of a pain in the a$$ of myself, could I twist everyone's arm who knows something about this to post it here?

Thanks!

Mike

[CockSparrow]

Iron: What gets it down? No Idea, NAC Maybe.

I do know what picks it up though. Magnets.
CS

[dranurag]

Hemolysis during tx by ribaverin does raise it but if you already have high iron you should modify your diet and stop any supplements.You can on the other hand be having hemochromatosis or hemosiderosis both of which lead to iron deposits in liver and cause liver damage separate from hep c

[Trinity4]

Mike,
I had 13 phelbotomies prior to tx.  Ferritin went from 783 to 17.  Worked for me. My doc was very emphatic about reducing the iron prior to tx but the primary reason was because I had PCT.  High iron is not something you want while on tx.  Some say it doesn't matter but I have read too much info and know better.
Trinity

[GSDgirl]

I also had PCT, It took me 5 phelbotomies to get my levels down.  I started tx for hep very soon after.  Did the sun cause large liquid filled blisters on your hands?  It did mine and oh boy did they hurt, I couldn't even hold a pen at one point and anything would just rip my skin.  The scars have faded alot but under certain lights they are still visable

Denise

[nygirl7]

Mike,

Any serious question is ALWAYS welcome.  You can't post too much when you have a new disease and you have questions to ask.  We all did it at one time or another. shoot...I drove people CRAZY when I first started here (and at that time we had a "limit" that was imposed and we could only begin like two threads every few months so it was REALLY hard to handle not posting!)

PS The organizing isn't a mania of just yours...........it seems to be REALLY prevalent amongst heppers, I don't know why but lists upon lists upon folders of information and questions.....................most of us have done it and found it really did help us!

[Trinity4]

You are the first person I've seen since posting in October that also had PCT.  If it hadn't been for that diagnosis I probaby wouldn't have known I had hepc.  My hands were terrible, very fragile skin that would tear even if I bumped my hand on the wall.  Blisters were especially bad when I would get in the sun but I didn't know the sun contributed to blistering so I went all last summer without using protection on my hands. It was painful and my hands looked like hamburger meat at times.  I started noticing my skin wasn't so fragile about half way through the plebotomies.  Now scars are very pale and going completely away.  My hands actually looked purple in the sun light because of all the scarring at first.  I don't think my doc needed to bring my ferritin level down so low but he's a knucklehead anyway so I'm not suprised.  My hemoglobin dropped to 10.5 and I started tx a week after my last phlebotomy so I figure I'm a good candidate for anemia anytime now as I'm in my 7th week of tx.  Blood work as of 3 wks ago did not indicate anemia but I just had another CBC done yesterday so we will see.  I feel like I got double whammied with the fatigue because I felt pretty bad to begin with after all those phlebotomies and now tx.  Oh well, we do what we have to do and just suck it up I guess.  Just wanted to let you know I have also shared that experience,
Trinity

[miked]

High iron levels was was led to my HCV diagnosis.

I've read a lot about high iron and tx.  Elevated iron can take a toll on all internal organs and must be managed.  Phlebotomy (blood letting) is the gold standard to lower iron levels.

As for tx, there are studies out there that elevated iron levels can really effect the outcome of SOC tx so reducing the levels before tx'ing makes sense.

What really brings the iron levels in your blood down is being cured.  I failed my first tx with SOC but am SVR after 24 weeks on Prove 3 with VX950.  Since then ALL of my labs have normalized, including iron.  Good luck.

miked

[merryBe]

prebleeding is one thing, but while on tx this will lower and push many into procrit territory.

I'm trying tannin, and tums, and no citrus unless eaten alone.
also reading labels for low iron dairy/bread/soup/pasta/cereal..you name it...some pasta and cereal contains 50 % of daily allowance...you do do NOT want iron fortified anything.
also eat no red meat/prunes/raisins/nut butters///all highly absorbable forms of iron.
further, if you eat your meat fish dishes separately from your mail meals you will absorb very little of your veggie stir fry and salads...reason being the Heme-iron in the meat proteins helps the non-heme veggie irons to absorb....so keep meats to 1-2 oz of white meat or cheeses....
also if you do indulge in chocolate or coffee..take milk or tums with it...and the iron absorption will be blocked.
even the decaff black tea has tannin, so it works well with the evening meal.
too much calcium can bind one up so be sure and take your PPC and lactulose.
also do not take tums in the meal you take Riba in.

when looking at lists remember that the amount of iron in a food is not the same as the absorbable amount...Absorption is what you need to focus on.
for that reason avoid citrus and vinegarette which help break down salad irons into absorbable forms.

[Trinity4]

I think diet can effectively control iron but in my case with ferritin so high diet would never have made a difference.  It just depends on the levels.  Plebotomy dumps a huge amount of iron from the body in a relatively short period of time.  So far I am not anemic but that's not to say it won't happen down the road.  Many are forced to procrit without ever having plebotomy.  I'm not an advocate of this procedure, as a matter of fact I hated it, but there was no other solution for me.
Trinity

[fretboard]

I read this somewhere, if somebody already posted this info. forvgive me for not reading it before I posted.  You can lower your iron level by maintaining a good diet, normally that means balanced meals.  Stay away from vitamin A, take it easy on the salt and don't take any supplements unless you know that they don't affect the increase of iron levels.  Oh, drink plenty of water and moderate excercise, excercise in moderatation is very important in maintaining iron levels.  hope this helps.  later

[mike716]

I'm going to respond to the posts one by one in the order they were sent. Hope that's okay with everyone.

M.

[mike716]

You're first. So, magnets pick it up? Well, then maybe they can put it down, huh? (Hardy-har-har)

M.

[mike716]

Stop supplements? That's sort of going too far, isn't it? I mean, I just got started on suplements, and I'm still convinced they're a good thing.

Maybe I should watch what my intake is of certain iron-rich supplements. But which ones are they?

Maybe I do have hemochromatosis or hemosiderosis. I sure can't count on my doc to tell me, though, even if he knows, which is doubtful.

Can you tell me what the blood test indications for these are? That would be a good place to start.

Mike

[mike716]

I see phlebotomy as a last resort. For now, I'd like to try other stuff, like iron-reducing nutrients.

What is PCT? I put it into Google and got two hepc-related phrases: Prothrombin Consumption Time and Porphyria Cutanea Tarda. Are either or bot of these related to iron?

[robeire]

Watch out for iron cooking pans,stainless steel cookware etc-iron leeches out of these- water supply is worth chekkin out as well-
I ve read some research in the past i think it was in italy, about IP6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP6

Even though Iron Overload. Org insists that Phlebotomy
is the only way to reduce your Iron stores we see several
other natural chelators being mentioned in the internet.
So far I have been able to find the following ones:
1. IP-6 or Inositol Hexaphosphate which is Phytic acid
2. Milk Thistle
3. Green Tea extract
4. Citrus bioflavonoids

personally I do all the iron reducing measures already mentioned

best wishes
Robinireland

[mike716]

Thanks very much for your support. I'm trying to moderate my questioning here as I don't want to become a bore. There's so much I don't know, though, and so many good people here who have been around and have some, if not all, of the answers.

If this were a normal listserv-type mailing list, I wouldn't have to post separate posts to each person I was trying to dialogue with. But the style of posting on this forum forces me to look conspicuous, like sending ten posts to this thread, one after the other. I suppose I look like a jerk, but who cares about appearances at this point?

Mike

[mike716]

What are Prove 3 and VX950?

M.

[robeire]

Hey Bro , we are all in this together ;)
keep researching / asking /investigating !!
dont let pride and guilt  limit your recovery !!

Have a nice weekend my friend
God Bless
Rob

[Trish77]

just a hint that I noticed people posting to more than one person within a post and it made sense so I adopted that method as well .... but not always.  You'll figure out what your own preferred method is.

[mike716]

Thanks for the new ideas on anti-iron stuff.

Do you have any URLs for tannin vs. iron? Tums?

What's wrong with citrus? Should I stop eating all this grapefruit (I've become a grapefruit nut since reading about naringenin). Or just stop eating it at breakfast with other stuff?

I've been eating a lot of oatmeal recently. And other whole grains. Do you think that might be a bad thing to be doing? Have they got a lot of iron?

Ditto re prunes and raisins. I thought they were good for you and have been devouring large quantities recently. Is that bad?

Milk in coffee is okay, then? Stops the iron-absorption? (These are important dietary points, I think. And I definitely believe that diet is the key to keeping down progression of liver disease.)

PPC is that polyunsaturated form of phosphatidylcholine that HR recommended, is that right?

Mike

[mike716]

What's hateful about phlebotomy? What bad stuff happens?

M.

[mike716]

Do you know of any websites that give info on which specific supplements are good/bad for iron levels?

M.

[mike716]

Thanks for the info and URl, Robin.

I have been drinking a lot of green tea. Do you think it's a lot better to take the extract?

I've found at least six different forms of milk thistle, the ultra-thistle (PPC-linked) form being the most interesting one, maybe. Which form of it did you decide on?

Ditto re IP6/Inositol. Also: were do you get it?

Mike

[GSDgirl]

I am not trinity but I can answer the phlebotomy question.  They use an 18 gage needle to drain blood, I think it was 500 cc's at a time.  Personally to me it hurt like crazy.  Also the PCT is porphyria another awful disease caused by hep c.  I think there are only one in 150,000 hep c patients that get it, maybe more.  I also had it.

As far as the iron goes, you have to read the labels.

Denise

[CockSparrow]

Sorry about the magnet line couldnt help myself.
Little nano magnets injected into your blood picking up all that stray iron.
Could work. Ok maybe not.
In the list of Suopps i take, at least one of em must lower iron as mine dropped by well over 50%. NAC or ALA and/or Green Tea was what i put it down to.
CS

[fretboard]

Here's some information off of the hcvinprison website, last time I referenced one of their links to a newsletter it was zapped by this forum.  Could be I broke one of the guidelines on posting, hope it helps.  Don't let the prison thing give you the wrong impression as they have some really good doctors working with them.  later

http://www.****.org/cms/images/stories/hcvinprison/docs/newsletters/Jan_Feb_06b.pdf

Iron and Hepatitis C
Excessive iron can be harmful to the liver and can lead to liver damage and cirrhosis. Many people with chronic hepatitis C (especially
men) have increased iron levels in their blood - iron, ferritin, and transferrin saturation. This may be due to iron being released into the
bloodstream by dying liver cells. Some of these people may carry a gene for hereditary iron overload. It is possible that iron may promote
the replication of HCV. Some studies have noted that people with chronic hepatitis C who have high iron levels respond poorly to
treatment with interferon. This is why reduction therapy in the form of phlebotomy (removal of blood through a vein) has been proposed
by some researchers as a possible treatment or adjunctive treatment option for people with chronic hepatitis C who have high iron levels.
In any case, it is probably wise for people with chronic hepatitis C, especially those with high iron studies and also those with cirrhosis,
to avoid iron supplementation or foods fortified with iron.

[Trinity4]

Yup, that's exactly right.  I had mine done at the Blood Connection which is a non-profit group that collect's blood and platelets and also gives phlebotomies to people with PCT or Hemochromatosis for free.  I thought I remember the technician telling me they used a 16 guage needle.  I have tiny little veins to begin with and my arms looked like I was a junkie by the time I finished.  I still have blue colored marks where they stuck me and that was over 7 wks ago!!!  It hurt me because they would grind that needle in my arm looking for the vein and it would feel like hot pokers running down my arm.  There was a couple times I wanted to smack the SH!T out of the technician.   It's not a pleasant experience but glad I did it because you do not want high iron starting out on tx.  
Trinity  

[dranurag]

I did not have high iron levels before tx and I am vegetarian but developed high iron and ferritin during tx possibly due to ribaverine. They stopped riba and continued on only IFN for 6 months. My iron levels came back to normal within 1 month of stopping riba. I took no supplements nor any anti iron thing just normal diet. No modifications at all.

[CockSparrow]

Its not Iron in your blood thats the problem so much as Iron stored in your Liver.
High liver Iron stores = high blood iron levels.
We need iron to make blood cells. Sadly so does the virus

CS

[Trinity4]

I have to disagree with you on:

"Its not Iron in your blood thats the problem so much as Iron stored in your Liver.
High liver Iron stores = high blood iron levels"

When I had my biopsy done they took an additional specimen to measure the hepatic iron index of my liver.  The results were 0.4 and normal is <1.0 therefore, indicating no iron accumulation.  Of course, I did have PCT and ferritin level starting out was 783 which normal is between 29-371 ng/ml and standard therapy for that is phlebotomy but there is a direct correlation between high ferritin levels and the outcome of SOC.
Trinity  

[CockSparrow]

I did have PCT and ferritin level starting out was 783 which normal is between 29-371 ng/ml and standard therapy for that is phlebotomy but there is a direct correlation between high ferritin levels and the outcome of SOC.

Thats different. There is a difference between high ferritin and high iron.
Similar but different, both bad.

Your liver stores iron and high levels are not good for your liver.
On Tx and riba kills all them red blood cells the iron has to go somewhere.

CS

[comeagain]

My hgb doesn`t seem to go down much during this tx although the riba dose is higher this time. last hgb is from the third of mars 12 weeks into tx and thats the lowest so far it was 12.9 all the other tests has been around 14.0 .
I asked my doc for a ferritin test a month ago but he said it wasn´t necessary because my biobsy 9 mos after first tx and 2 mos before present tx, indicated no iron in the liver ( no detectable homosider iron)

ps my weight is now 83kg (183lbs) started tx on 89kg(196lbs) riba dose is 1200mg a day

[CockSparrow]

Hemolytic Anemia can cause high serum iron. Is this a bad thing when on Tx. Probably not as we need iron to make Red Blood Cells. This could be at least part of the reason why some of us dont becaume severly anemic while on Tx.

When high Iron is mentioned are we necessarily talking about the same thing.
High Ferritin is not good but is that the case with high serum iron.
High levels of Liver Iron is not good either.

Below are what tested in Iron Studies.
Evaluation of iron status can include several tests that are not always run together. These include:
• Serum iron - measures the level of iron in the liquid part of your blood.
• Ferritin - measures the amount of stored iron in your body. Ferritin is the main protein that stores iron, especially in the liver and the bone marrow (the inside cavity in bones, where blood cells are made).
• Total Iron Binding Capacity (TIBC) - measures the amount of transferrin, a blood protein that transports iron from the gut to the cells that use it. Your body makes transferrin in relationship to your need for iron; when iron stores are low, transferrin levels increase, while transferrin is low when there is too much iron.
Usually about one third of the transferrin is being used to transport iron. Because of this, your blood serum has considerable extra iron-binding capacity, which is the Unsaturated Iron Binding Capacity (UIBC). The TIBC equals UIBC plus the serum iron measurement. Some laboratories measure UIBC, some measure TIBC, and some measure transferrin.

CS

[merryBe]

well medhelp bleeped my link so here is that info:

                  Hemochromatosis  and Anemia Diet
  This diet is especially important for those in protocol treatment

1.  A low iron diet is not recommended or even possible to design.  Iron is in everything
and foods that contain iron also provide other essential elements to help heal and rebuild
the body.  Red meat is an important source of B vitamins.  Fresh fruits and vegetables
benefit the liver more than processed foods.

2.  Iron is not excreted.  A normal metabolism for iron refrains from absorbing more than
the daily need.  One milligram of iron is lost daily through hair, fingernails, dead skin cells
and other detritus.  The average daily loss for menstruating woman is one and half
milligrams.  That one or one and a half is the daily need despite outdated levels
recommended by the governmental agencies.

3.  Body damage from iron injury is entirely preventable.  Treatment is completely benign.  
An individual with elevated iron should begin protocol treatment and be motivated to bring
ferritin to the lowest end of normal ranges.  Then the patient must continue a maintenance
program to prevent the re-buildup.  Each individual loads iron at a different rate.  The first
year is experimental.  Measure the ferritin - measure of storage iron - at the end of each year,
and adjust the schedule as necessary.

4.  Protocol treatment is blood removal once or twice a week at the blood bank.  The patient
should be well hydrated and should not skip meals.  Treatment is inexpensive or free in some
cases and is effective.  Such treatment will return the patient to a normal lifespan and reverse
most if not all symptoms.

5.  With a hemoglobin of 10 or higher and a hematocrit of 33% or higher, a full unit of blood
should be drawn off once or twice a week.  The blood is usable as donor blood when it meets
all safety criteria.

6.  What about anemia?  Anemias are iron-loading, except for anemias resulting from  chronic
blood loss or tumor.  When iron accumulates in storage instead being used by hemoglobin,
the patient's hemoglobin will test low.  Iron should not be administered.  Instead the patient needs
a complex of B vitamins, including B6, folate or folic acid and B12.  The excess iron must be
removed despite the anemia.

7.  When low iron is found, it is essential to seek the source of the blood loss or cancer.
Cancer cells require iron to proliferate.  It is dangerous to medicate with iron without first
knowing the iron levels and then discovering the reason for low iron.

8.  When anemia is severe enough to require transfusions, physicians should be aware that this
process will increase the dangerous iron burden.  Iron must be simultaneously removed through
the iron chelator Desferal or a new chelator called Exjade.

9.  Preventing liver cancer is the patient's primary goal.  The patient should avoid medications
where possible and protect the liver.  The physicians should use medications only when
absolutely necessary.

10.  Alcohol should be avoided until the de-ironing process is completed.  When liver
enzymes return to normal, the patient may cautiously ease back into social drinking.

11.  Tylenol ® - acetemetaphen - should never be taken with alcohol.  The patient who tests
with elevated liver enzymes, as many do, must avoid Tylenol ® altogether.

12.  Those in protocol treatment will benefit from a B complex of vitamins, including B6, folic
acid or folate and B12.  Low doses of vitamin E - below 50 International Units daily is also
beneficial.

13.  Iron patients must check labels of processed foods for added iron or vitamin C.  An
example is that oatmeal or shredded wheat should be selected instead of the breakfast
cereal Total ®.

14.  Who should take iron?  The only candidate for iron supplementation is an individual
who has had large portions of gut surgically removed.

15.  The patient must not take any over-the-counter vitamin C as a pill.  It has been found
to mobilize stored iron into the heart muscle where it sets up arrhythmia or heart rhythm
disturbances.  It can also cause people to over absorb iron even from their ordinary diets.
And it can fire the iron that is stored in the joints and makes arthritis worse.  Of course
everyone will need vitamin C in their diet.  The source for vitamin C should be any
uncooked food.  Fruits, juices and salads are excellent sources.  Multi vitamins even
without iron should be avoided because of the vitamin C restriction.

16.  The patient must not eat or handle raw seafood.  Cooked is OK, but not raw.  Iron
overloaded patients should also not walk on beaches barefoot.  This is because of a
bacterium common in all sea water called Vibrio vulnificus.  This bacterium when it
encounters stored iron is catastrophically toxic.  Every year it is the cause of death and
maiming when an undiagnosed iron overloaded patient comes in contact with this bacteria.

17.  Drinking tea can help inhibit iron absorption.  Tannin is the blocking agent.  The patient
should understand that this will not be a replacement for protocol treatment.

18.  Excess iron stores in liver, heart, brain, pancreas, joints and everywhere.  Iron oxidizes
- rusts - and results in deadly and expensive disease.  Symptoms of heart disease, cancer,
cirrhosis, diabetes, arthritis, sexual dysfunction and others are completely preventable when
they are based on iron.  Maintaining low iron levels improves immunity, making iron unavailable
to viruses, bacteria and cancer cells.

19.  The most common of several iron storage diseases is hemochromatosis.  It is caused
by the most frequently expressed genetic abnormality in any population and can result in the
metabolic defect that leads to iron overload.  It is estimated that 42 million Americans are at
risk, including those with the double gene and those with the single gene expression.  The
single mutation may result in enough excess iron to cause heart attack or stroke, aside from
full blown hemochromatosis.

[jmjm530]

My understanding is that  phlebotomy is normal protocol to reduce your iron load. Why go looking for a drug when phlebotomy works without introducing something foreign into your system?

[jmjm530]

Just to be clear, I'm talking about phlebotomy *prior* to treatment, not during treatment.

[merryBe]

here's one

http://www.irondisorders.org/Disorders/about.asp

shessh mike I actually went to 150-200 sites that day..most on iron binding...argh..I.will try to refind the tannin specific one, but this is another good primer.

calcium binds iron and keeps it from absorbing...so any form of calcium is helpful..
vitamin C aides  iron absorption....so high citric acid food or drinks are out...
I'm sure the person saying no supplements meant no general vitamin supplements as you want to avoid the iron and vit C in them....although C is an essential vitamin so try to get some alone not during meals.

the grapefruit is tricky, it effects several drugs foods proteins...it can mess with absorption as well as change lipid levels.
there is a particular enzyme making it problematic and you really should read up on interactions before getting carried away with any one food or food group.

somewhere I found a list of teas...basically black ooloon tea is best for the tannin...
not with bergamot..which is citrus again..(added for flavor but most don't know thats citrus.
and NOT with caffiene...since the RIBA is affecting your sleep...look for decafs...Stash tea carries a few types.

[Trinity4]

Whew!!!  Thanks Jim!!!  I've been trying to say that all along.  High Ferritin, high iron, it doesn't matter - phlebotomy is the standard if levels are high before treatment.
Trinity

[gauf]

From The Life Extension website (courtesy of Evangelin)

Reducing Iron Stores
Elevated serum iron levels are often found in people with hepatitis C and cause further oxidative damage to the liver. Certain nutritional supplements have shown evidence of reducing serum iron levels. To help keep serum iron levels in the low normal range of 30 to 80 ng/dL, high doses of green tea polyphenols and high-allicin garlic may be beneficial.

Lactoferrin, a subfraction of whey protein, may be especially beneficial as an adjunctive treatment for serum iron overload in hepatitis patients. Lactoferrin is a potent antioxidant, antiviral agent, and scavenger of free iron. In addition, lactoferrin is directly involved in the upregulation of natural killer cell activity, making it a natural modulator of immune function (Yi M et al 1997; Ikeda M et al 1998, 2000). As an immune booster, lactoferrin has been shown to work synergistically with interferon to reduce the viral load (Ishii K et al 2003).

Taking 300 mg of elemental calcium can reduce iron absorption by as much as 50 percent. When eating iron-rich foods, hepatitis C patients should consider taking a high-potency calcium supplement at the same time (Hallberg L et al 1991).

[mike716]

I like your idea about the little magnets in the blood swooping up all the iron. Have you got a link to who sells micro-miniature magnets that small? :]

I think I know what ALA is (alpha-linoleic acid, an omega-3 fatty acid, right?), but what is NAC?

Mike

[mike716]

Thanks for the hcvinprison info. BTW, I believe the forum is configured to delete the first part of a domain name following www. It's happened to me, too. Maybe if you leave off the http://www and just start with the domain name it will leave it alone. Let's try it. I'll give both versions:

http://www.hepatitis-central.com/hcv/whatis/vl.html

hepatitis-central.com/hcv/whatis/vl.html

[mike716]

Well, Trinity, you've certainly put me off the whole plebotomy thing, I can tell you that. You, too, GSDgirl.

:¬(

I'm gonna have needle nightmares for weeks.

Mike

[Trinity4]

Oh come on Mike, I thought Latino men were fearless!!!

[mike716]

What was the result of your therapy without ribavirin?

[mike716]

How would you interpret the following blood test result:

Serum ferretin 298 ng/mL  ?

[mike716]

You mean you believe that c**p?

[Trinity4]

Thanks for the laugh!!!  I really needed that.  From your pic you like like you could leap tall buildings in a single bound!!!

[mike716]

Thanks for all that great info on iron from irondisorders.org!

You're a peach, Merry Be. (Old-fashioned expression of approval used by us old-timers).

Mike

[mike716]

Actually I'm a push-over.

But, hey!, we're cluttering up an important thread (on iron, remember?) with frivolity...

M.

[mike716]

Trinity4 and GSDgirl have put the fear of phlebotomy into me. I'd rather take lactoferrin, calcium, black and green tea extracts, garlic, and even CockSparrow's little magnets... if he'll just come across and fess up to where he gets them :]

M.

[CockSparrow]

Mike - Serum ferretin 298 ng/mL
You have 298 nanograms of ferritin per 1000th of a liter

From http://cjasn.asnjournals dot org/cgi/content/full/1/Supplement_1/S4.
replace “ dot “ with “.”
hopefully Medhelp wont trash the link.
Its about high Iron in Kidney disease and is quite good.

Iron overload, according to the K/DOQI guidelines, may occur in patients who have serum ferritins in excess of 800 ng/ml,

Does that help.

“Mike - CockSparrow's little magnets... if he'll just come across and fess up to where he gets them”
As for the nano magnets you will have to wait for the future for em.
Cracked me up you did.

Oh Yeh NAC= N-Acetyl Cysteine

CS

[mike716]

} Iron overload, according to the K/DOQI guidelines, may occur in patients who have
} serum ferritins in excess of 800 ng/ml,

Does that mean serum ferretin of 298ng/mL isn't too high yet? That would surprise me, as 300 is apparently the ULN, and gauf says the normal range is 30 to 80. Maybe 800 is the upper limit for kidney disorders?

Re the nano magnets...come on, you're holding out on me, I want that address in Korea where they're producing 'em :] Sure, sure, the FDA doesn't approve nano magnets, but so what? The h*ll with the FDA!

BTW, what is N-Acetyl Cysteine good for?

Mike

[CockSparrow]

Nah not too high yet. nornal is 30-300. you are high normal.
OK if it were me I'd like it lower, but you are normal.
Bet you never thought you would hear anyone say that about ya.

Iron Overeload is Iron Overload no matter what disease you have.

NAC is good for tylenol overdose
Does a fair bit more though.

Not Korea Taiwan for the magnets.

CS

[mike716]

I'm gonna try to get my iron down if I can just find some lactoferrin down here in the Southern Hemisphere.

Normal, huh? You're right, that's a new one on me :¬]

That article on iron in kidney disease was pretty scary. It says that over 800 ng, it starts depositing out in the cells. That doesn't do 'em much good, I bet.

Crafty, those Taiwanese. And we could sure use some of their nano-stuff, 'cause if interferon and ribavirin is the best that the drug companies can come up with, the world's HCV+ population is up the proverbial creek...

Mike

[GSDgirl]

Fear of phlebotomies LOL.........LOL, I thought that all the new yorkers up there were tough.......LOL..........

gsd Denise

[mike716]

First it was Trinity4 gettin sassy, now it's you? What are you two, the phlebotomy twins?

And who sez I ain't tough? I'm pretty tough alright. Yeah. I just don't like to bleed, that's all. Anything wrong with that?

Man o man, people sure do get away with stuff here in virtual-ville where ya can't get yer hands on 'em...

[Trinity4]

Phlebotomy Twins - I like that!!!   I don't blame him for not wanting phlebotomies.  IT *****!!   I hope he finds those magnets.  I guess he could borrow Iron Man's suit and have an MRI.  That's bound to pull something out of your body!

[GSDgirl]

Yea, I don't blame him either, it hurt like heII.  Ya know, most people don't even know what phlebotomy is let alone how to spell it.  I don't know about the iron man suit, can't imagine all that little iron coming out thru my skin.......remember Trin it already did that and made the blisters?

[Trinity4]

Oh yeah, I forgot about those damn blisters.  I guess I've been keeping myself busy picking at those little white milia (spelling?) lately!!  I'll bet nobody knows what those are!!!  It's a shame how easily I amuse myself anymore.  My life has been reduced to shots on Friday and picking milia.  I think I need professional help!!!!  LOL  

[mike716]

Blisters...little white milia...iron coming out through your skin...Holy Cow, you girls are freaking me out, you mean I'm gonna lose my soft, milky-white skin on tx? No, no, anything but that...

M.

[GSDgirl]

Trinity and I have a another side effect of the hep c.  It is called porphyria PCT, that is what causes the awful blisters caused by the sun pulling the porphyrins out thru the skin.  It is very rare and very painful, hence the phlebotomies to get rid of the iron overload before tx.  SOOOO you are gonna probably keep your soft milky white skin but protect it thru tx.    You think it freaked you out?  just imagine what it did to us, but we dealt with it.  Just be glad you don't have it LOL.  Imagine being a female with purple scar looking messes on your hands & EVERYBODY asks.  Everybody has their little ? or not so little, sides to test them I guess.  I think that when we all get thru this we will be better for it. maybe more compasionate, more patient, more foregiving maybe.\, more helpful towards others.  Just maybe

GSD

[mike716]

PCT comes from too much iron? So getting down iron before tx is essential, huh?

Will your and Trinity's purple scarring eventually clear up? (I sure hope so!)

Forgive me for the dumb questions. I'm trying to get this stuff into focus. It's all new to me. I was only diagnosed three months ago. First biopsy day after tomorrow. I don't really understand a thing yet, not with any clarity.

So I appreciate the insights into iron, phlebotomy, PCT, anemia, and everything else.

Thanks!

Mike

[Isobella]

Wish you the best with the biopsy!  

Isobella

[GSDgirl]

PCT is porphyria caused by porphyrins and has something to do with too much iron in the blood / liver.  It is pretty complicated.  You don't have it, believe me you would know if you did.  Yes the scars on my hands are barely noticable & trinity said hers are very faint too.  I never realized iron overload was so dangerous.  

No question is a dumb question BTW.

GSD Denise

[mike716]

Thank you very much. I'm a bit scared, I must admit. I don't like needles much.

Mike

[mike716]

Whew, I'm glad you two are getting your regular skins back. That PCT sounds pretty grim.

More reason to get the iron down before I do tx. But I still say there's gotta be some way easier than phlebotomy. I'm looking for lactoferrin and inositol, but finding supps down here in the Southern Hemisphere is like looking for good tango partners in New York.

Mike

[Trinity4]

What does your doctor say about your iron levels?  From what I read they aren't that bad.  It's a known fact anyone starting tx should not have elevated ferritin or iron levels but yours isn't over the top.  Have you been given a recommendation by your doctors yet or is this something you will be discussing with them?
Trinity

[GSDgirl]

I was thinkin' the same thing as what trinity says.  

[mike716]

My doctors here don't have the time to bother about stuff like high (but not TOO high) iron levels. They have around two hundred HCV+ patients each, most of whom are a lot worse than me. So I've got to try and get my iron down all by myself, at least for the time being.

Serum ferretin of 300 is not good. Not when normal is around 50.

It's too bad I can't get lactoferrin or inositol here in Argentina, but I'm gonna keep looking until I find something that's a good iron chelator. I can't drink fifty cups of green tea every day...

Mike

[GSDgirl]

isn't inositol just a powdered b vitamin?  We used to buy it in GNC many years ago.  Or can't you buy it online?

[mike716]

Hi, Denise. You may be right about Inositol being some sort of vitamin, but the trick is to get it in a form where it's relatively pure so you don't have to take big doses of the other things at the same time. Sure, they sell it at GNC and the Vitamin Shop, and probably at all the online nutrient places, but I'm trying to avoid dealing with customs and import duties and all that. You can't imagine what it's like dealing with any kind of burocracy or authority down here in the Southern Hemisphere. They make everything as difficult as possible so that you have to bribe them. And if you're a yank, the bribe is ten times a big as for an Argentine. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

There's gotta be some inositol around here somewhere. Even if I've gotta manufacture it myself from plants.

M.

[GSDgirl]

It didn't need   to be pure for what we used it for.........cut.....that was 25 years ago.  good luck finding the purer stuff

[MKAndrew]

First of all, I agree with whoever said to stop the supplements.  You never know.  You might be taking a supplement that could impair your upcoming treatment.  Being "convinced they're good for you," well, you need to come up with a better reason than that, like proof of deficiency.  If you're really concerned about vitamins and minerals, your doctor can test you for deficiency.  If you've got high iron, stop taking iron.  

Regarding iron and treatment, last time I checked, there was no proof that iron interferes with treatment results.  When you settle down after finishing treatment, you can take care of your iron problem then, if you even still have it.  There are 2 types of hemochromatosis.  One is genetic, the other is secondary to liver disease.  If you cure the liver disease, that in itself might stop your iron transport problems.  If your iron overload persists after you finish treatment, the only safe way to remove it from your body is phlebotomy (bloodletting).  Desferal is dangerous, as is any type of iron chelation.  True chelators can drop a lot of iron into your kidneys at once and destroy them.

[CockSparrow]

You cant seem to accept that you are normal can you.
Nornal Iron is not 50 it is 50-300. Your high normal thats all.
Normal Normal Normal OK

Iron at 50 or so could actually be bad on Tx as you need iron to make Red Blood Cells that the Riba kills off. You dont want to run out.

I am in the Southern Hemiphere and i dont have to bribe anyone.
CS

[Trinity4]

Got to disagree with you buddy.  I had high ferritin 783 or something like that and had to have phlebotomies prior to tx.  Also had PCT which is caused from iron overload too but HCV needs iron to replicate.

Iron’s Role in Hepatitis C Infection
Hepatitis C inflicts most of its damage by latching onto molecules of iron, resulting in free-radical damage to liver cells. In turn, the liver becomes inflamed, which can lead to the formation of scar tissue (fibrosis). If left unchecked, this steady damage will result in cirrhosis or liver cancer.

About 30 percent of people with hepatitis C have very high iron levels. Reduction of serum iron has been shown to normalize liver enzyme levels, which are elevated during periods of active liver damage (Fong TL et al 1998). Iron depletion therapy has also been shown to improve the response to conventional medicines used to treat hepatitis (Fargion S et al 1997). The only effective way to decrease serum iron is to have an iron loss, as occurs when donating blood. Hepatitis C patients cannot donate blood for common use, but their blood can still be removed, although it must be discarded.

Serum ferritin is a measure of the amount of stored iron and is used to guide therapy. A serum ferritin value between 30 and 80 ng/dL is optimal. Many hepatitis C patients have serum ferritin values in excess of 300 ng/dL.

Despite substantial scientific evidence, however, few physicians implement iron-depletion therapy before beginning antiviral therapy. This partially accounts for the high failure rate of conventional drugs in eradicating the virus (Boucher E et al 1997; Martin-Vivaldi R et al 1997; Tsai NC et al 1997).

I don't think Mike's are too high yet, but high iron is a no no!
Trinity

[mike716]

To MKAndrew and all:

My lab reports say that the normal range of serum ferretin is 30 - 300. I've got around 300. You can say it's still within the normal range, but let's face it, it's way more than what I need or what's good for my infected liver. Even if I didn't have HCV, I wouldn't want to be at the ULN for iron, I'd want to be down at least in the middle, around 100, or even 50. That's normal, too, and it isn't overloading the system. But my liver IS infected, and the virus is using iron to kill hepatocytes. So 300 is even worse now. Whether I'm on therapy or not, I don't want all that unnecessary iron in me giving the virus an extra hand in knocking off liver cells.

That's my logic. Anyone out there see something wrong in it?

For CockSparrow:

Normal? I don't get you, CS. I've had elevated AST and ALT for years, my GGT fluctuates around 300, so does my serum ferretin, and my total bilirubin is at 2.2, twice the ULN. I may not have varices or portal hypertension yet, but if I've been carrying this virus around for forty years as seems to be the case, there's gonna be liver damage. And even if the damage isn't too great so far, it can accelerate at any time. There's nowhere says that fibrosis and cirrosis (cirrhosis) progression is lineal over time. Quite the contrary. Older folks like me (I'm 64) are bad bets, not only for tx but for eventual outcome. Check the statistics. I'm most likely gonna die of this disease eventually, regardless of what the present extent of liver damage is.

You call that normal? I don't. I call it having a bad and almost untreatable disease. I'm going to do everything I can to keep that disease from progressing.

Mike

[CockSparrow]

Mike
Sorry I was in a bit of a mood yesterday. I was talking about your Ferritin  
I wont call you normal again.
If you are inside the normal range even high normal, what can you do.
I must admit that if I were in your shoes I would like it a little lower but normal is normal. And high normal is still normal. Your Iron does fluctuate.

I know what you mean about high ALT/ASTs, bit of a worry aint they. High GGT is not good either These all  idicate something is happening.
All still normal for HepC though. So I can still say you are normal.

That’s thing about blood markers while they do indicate something is going on they don’t give a good picture of how bad or how fast damage is occurring.

When you get a biopsy you will get a clearer picture of what is happening and if they check for Iron this will also give more info on your liver iron stores.
Till then it’s a bit of a guess.

All the Best
CS

[mike716]

Should I ask my hepatologist to tell the biopsy folks to check for iron?

[merryBe]

thanks for explaining the tests.

I have read that starting out some docs try to get us down to 50...knowing during tx our levels will rise.
However...they only do that if we are above normal (50-290) to start with.

I see Mike's point here. My doc said..."you shouldn't worry your biopsy showed no iron in the liver"...but that biopsy was over a year ago....and my iron has doubled since then.
from 144 to 387...and that is on a LOW iron diet.

Maybe you could explain why what what was going on a year ago means nothing bad is happeneing now?  I'm a little confused by his reasoning that a biopsy a year ago proves what is going on now is not a problem.... and would like to know if there is sound science there....or if I'm getting the brush off.

any thoughts here? thanks
MB

[mike716]

This whole iron thing is really confusing, isn't it? I wouldn't be surprised if the doctors didn't understand it either. Of course, no doctor would ever admit he/she doesn't know something. :¬]

I saw my gastro last week for my IBS and asked her about iron vis-a-vis the liver, and getting mine down. She said it was okay to have high-ish iron now as it could help with the anemia once I'm on tx. When I queried her about the studies showing that iron is part of the fibrosis process, and that high iron is associated with non-response to tx, she said that was wrong. Who do you believe? The researchers and the doctors are always at each others' throats.

Mike

[scratchinghead]

Look on all your cereal and processed foods. Sometimes iron is supplemented or is high enough to make a different choice. I found this to be true especially with breakfast cereals, cold and hot. Energy bars too.

[mike716]

I know what you mean. Seems like every food processor is trying to "help us" by supplementing iron. It's maddening.

M.

[alagirl]

Its weird but my iron levels went from ultra ultra high to nil in a few weeks just restarting my bone marrow after therapy.  The best way to get rid of iron is definitely phlebotomy if your blood count can sustain it.  I was overdosed four or five years ago by an apparently well meaning but idiotic hematologist and phelbotomy was very successful for me.  But that was before I had hepc.  I was prepared to do that again after this tx but by some miracle my own bone marrow used my iron to get restarted.  (Or maybe it was my exclusive diet of ben & jerry's that brought it down since calcium binds iron - kidding)

Vitamin c helps the body absorb iron, so you don't want that.  

How high is your iron right now?

[mike716]

In all blood tests since I was diagnosed in february, it's been consistently up around 300 (I can't remember what units it's measured in), and my lab report gives 300 as the Upper Limit of Normal. It worries me a lot, although I've got all sorts of other scores that aren't so good either, like GGT (around 100), bilirubin (around 2), and ALT/AST in the high 50s. But the iron bothers me more than this other stuff, because of what I've read about it. Plus I'm sure there are some dietary things and supplements I can take that will get it down, if I could just figure out what they are and where to get them.

What do you think, should I send for something like Inositol and start taking big-ish doses for a while?

Mike

[alagirl]

Honestly I can't see 300 being such a huge issue that you need to do phlebotomy pre-treatment, although that said, I think one or two units would probably bring it down to low normal.  One phlebotomy might completely normalize someone in your position.  Phlebotomy isn't bad really, and I had mine done at my GP and we didn't even have all the right equipment.  It went from 1000 to normal very fast after we initiated the phlebotomy.

And mine was around 3000 for a lot of my treatment due to the multiple transfusions I had, but my own bone marrow used it.  My hematologist was freaking a little bit but still supported me on treatment.    

[alagirl]

One other thing.  Just initiating treatment may bring down the level as your body pulls from it to fight the red blood cell loss from the ribavirin.  Something to think about.  

They typically won't use the chelation drugs unless your iron is at least 1000, but at least one of the chelation drugs is very difficult on the body although I understand there is a least one new chelation drug that's a bit easier.  

[merryBe]

Yes you are right, it does get confusing. A doctor saying no big deal, who has no idea how much your Meld is changing, or why you iron has doubled or if it will go back down...  I mean, sure when I start taking no SOC drugs in 10 more months, my iron will go back down as my HGB goes up...it's the meantime I'm worried about...and since they won't give procrit until you basically can't walk....meanwhile where is the iron going and what damage is done and how fast?

here's something Cocksparrow wrote me privately that I don't think he's mind me sharing.
he knows a lot about it...and this should help you get some more clarification.

>>>>>>>>I Don’t have time to do this justice in the thread.
Basically when you have anemia you get high Iron

This is off another forum. This is pre Tx not during Tx.
Dwight, your serum iron level will probably become elevated after you've
been on tx just a couple of weeks, all those dead red cells will dump
lots of iron into your blood. It probably wouldn't hurt to continue
phlebotomy until your hgb drops below 12 or so.
Elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

Here are a couple of links
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7699235

http://www.indianjnephrol.org/article.asp?issn=0971-4065;year=2007;volume=17;issue=4;spage=188;epage=193;aulast=Prakash

http://www.hcvets.com/data/hcv_liver/iron_and_ribavirin_increased_hep.htm

You will get the idea
Search on Ribavirin Iron you will get quite a few hits.

From the last link. It old but explains what happens quite well
Accumulated iron deposition within the liver might reach excessive levels during prolonged treatment, especially in patients with high preexisting concentrations of hepatic iron.

Now this is why I don’t think it is a big an issue as we think it is. Its high Hepatic Iron that the problem not high serum Iron, You had no liver iron so even if Riba is putting some there it shouldn’t be causing you many probs.
Not much you can do about it anyway.
(author Cocksparrow to MerryBe)

hope this helps. I'm not as nervous as I was following the above answers.
mb

[merryBe]

3 answers I forgot...I've switched to golden raisens...that lowers the iron content.
yes to milk in coffee...any calcium with iron will help bind it....like even cheese if you insist on some red meat....ergo philly cheese steak, pastrami with cheese, cheeseburger...even if not a bloody meat, like chicken breast still is heme..and so still think dairy with it will help.

as to oatmeal and PPC....well my cholesterol went from 150 to 123 on oatmeal alone..
the PPC has lowers it a little more....116.....so my guess is the oatmeal has the greater effect, though the ppc has more antifibrotic action..so both are good from that standpoint.
make sure you look for Milk that is not fortified with iron.
mb

[mike716]

What are those chelation drugs you mentioned?

What I have in mind is using natural chelators until going on tx. But I can't find any info on which ones to take, how much, and when to stop.

[mike716]

Thanks for all the info, links, and good ideas, Merry. I'm trying hard to control my diet, and have started doing some natural supplements. I'm eating a lot of whole grains and fruit, and drinking green and other teas instead of coffee. Still trying to find sources here in Argentina for ppc and other supplements, especially nartural iron chelators, but so far not much luck. However, I persevere...

Mike

[alagirl]

desferal is, I believe, the oldero chelator that is the most difficult on the body.  Its the one you would want to avoid I think.  I really think though that your body is going to use the iron making blood in the early stages of treatment.  And also, I don't think they can prescribe a chelator until you are over 1000.  I went from over 3000 to 61 just restarting my bone marrow after treatment with no phlebotomy or chelator.  

The ribavirin causes reduced red blood count in virtually everyone.  I would at least talk to your physician about the odds that you will use your stores in the first four weeks of treatment.  I only built up such high levels because I had so many transusions in such a short time during treatment and my treatment was still successful.

[Magnum]

According to the Hepatologist Dr. Gish, the eating of iron supplying cereals and vegetables is not a big deal. The big deal, is taking iron as a supplement. One-A-Day vitamins makes an adult vitamin with NO iron. My iron has also gone up in the past two blood works.

Interestingly, he said he doesn't look at that as an indicator, but rather the results of the last biopsy (2005) which showed normal iron levels. Oh, and by the way, I believe this is the longest thread since I've been a member her for several years...

Magnum

[alagirl]

Here's an article I found done in 2004.


BACKGROUND/AIMS: Iron overload is common among patients with chronic hepatitis C (CHC). In this study the role of hepatic iron concentration (HIC) and serum iron parameters was assessed to determine response to standard and pegylated interferon (IFN)/ribavirin combination therapy in patients with CHC. METHODS: Liver biopsies were obtained from 169 IFN-naïve patients (m=115, f=54, age: 40.8+/-10.7) with CHC. 140 patients were treated with standard IFN/ribavirin, 29 patients with pegylated-IFN/ribavirin. Biopsy specimens were evaluated according to the DiBisceglie scoring system and iron grading. HIC was determined by atomic absorption spectroscopy. Ferritin and transferrin saturation and presence of HFE-C282Y and H63D gene mutations were determined at baseline. RESULTS: Nonresponders to combination therapy had higher serum ferritin levels at baseline (p<0.01). There was no difference of HIC, transferrin saturation levels, and the HFE-mutation status between responders and nonresponders. Logistic regression analysis revealed serum ferritin as an independent predictor of response. HIC correlated with the DiBisceglie score (r=0.352, p<0.001), iron grading (r=0.352, p<0.001) and serum ferritin (r=0.335, P<0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Pretreatment liver iron concentration does not predict response to combination therapy in patients with CHC. In contrast, high baseline serum ferritin levels are predictors of poor response to antiviral therapy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15158344?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

[alagirl]

Here's a link to an old study (1995) where they did use desferal to reduce iron prior to treatment.  They only reduced to under 250, considering that low enough in serum iron terms, so again, I guess I'd look at the recent studies you find, take them to your hepetologist, and see what he thinks.  My own feeling is that 300 would be ok but you should talk to your doc of course. There is at least one new chelation drug now that is easier on the body (not sure what its called but your doctor would know).  

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2893.1996.tb00003.x

[mike716]

Thanks for the info and analisis, hon. I'm gonna have to make an independent decision about reducing iron, as my doc here won't discuss it and probably knows nothing about it :¬[

For the moment, I'm trying to stick to dietary control, but I may have to go the chelator route if this doesn't work. I don't think going into tx with 300 is a good idea. Not from what I've been reading.

It's too bad there isn't more interest in these sorts of topics in the research community. It's so darned hard to get any real up-to-date information.

M.

[Trish77]

From:  http://www.lef.org/protocols/infections/hepatitis_c_01.htm

An incredibly comprehensive article dealing with Hep C, what it does to the body, what natural supplements to take to counter those effects and what the risks are for each supplement.  I don't know how this Life Foundation is but I found the article impressive.  So a caveat...I don't know if these guys are on the money..posting the following for people to think for themselves on.

"Serum ferritin is a measure of the amount of stored iron and is used to guide therapy. A serum ferritin value between 30 and 80 ng/dL is optimal. Many hepatitis C patients have serum ferritin values in excess of 300 ng/dL."

  "Reducing Iron Stores
Elevated serum iron levels are often found in people with hepatitis C and cause further oxidative damage to the liver. Certain nutritional supplements have shown evidence of reducing serum iron levels. To help keep serum iron levels in the low normal range of 30 to 80 ng/dL, high doses of green tea polyphenols and high-allicin garlic may be beneficial.

Lactoferrin, a subfraction of whey protein, may be especially beneficial as an adjunctive treatment for serum iron overload in hepatitis patients. Lactoferrin is a potent antioxidant, antiviral agent, and scavenger of free iron. In addition, lactoferrin is directly involved in the upregulation of natural killer cell activity, making it a natural modulator of immune function (Yi M et al 1997; Ikeda M et al 1998, 2000). As an immune booster, lactoferrin has been shown to work synergistically with interferon to reduce the viral load (Ishii K et al 2003).

Taking 300 mg of elemental calcium can reduce iron absorption by as much as 50 percent. When eating iron-rich foods, hepatitis C patients should consider taking a high-potency calcium supplement at the same time (Hallberg L et al 1991)."

[mikesimon]

Are they in it for the money? Yes, you bet they are! But who isn't these days? Do I trust their science? No, but I like a different brand of yogurt too. And, I don't take colloidal silver either. Mike

[Trish77]

Well...doing something for money isn't a bad thing.  Whole economies and our own employment depends on people doing something for money rather than the pure altruism of it.  People in the health business have perhaps chosen an education in that and may also have an entrepreneurial spirit or want to work for themselves and no harm in building a business that earns you a living while at the same time meeting the needs of others...whether it's appliances, life insurance or health services.

Now...where the difference is to me are those that TAKE ADVANTAGE of someone's situation, such as health situation to extort money out of them by offering them something that does little other than line their own pockets while directing the recipient further away from the help they are seeking.

So when I see these sites....that they make money doesn't bother me.  It's whether what they're selling is actually all they say it is and can be proven and if they have integrity.  And isn't THAT hard to assess!  

If anyone knows anything at all about this Life Extension group.. I wouldn't mind knowing.

Trish

[mike716]

Thanks for the link, Trish.

Yes, it's hard to know how much to trust these nutrient pushers like Life Extension. They're selling products. I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

For example, they say that liver inflammation is caused by oxidative dammage and is the cause of fibrosis, but my hepatologist (and other things I've read) says that inflammation of the liver is caused by the immune system reaction to the virus, and that if there were no inflammation that would be worse.

Another example: Someone posted a research article on lactoferrin that says it causes increased serum ferretin, whereas Life Extension claims it lowers serum ferretin.

I've noticed that sites like Life Extension often quote other sites and articles without crediting them, pretending what they are saying is their own work. That's not only immoral and illicit, it's dangerous, because misinformation can get passed around that way and end up sounding like a consensus of opinion.

But where are we to get trustworthy info when the medical community is adverse to discussing alternative therapies?

It's a bad situation.

Mike