Aa
Want to reduce your viral load.?
Anyone else have the success that I have.?.
I was diagnosed in Feb 2, 09. I use a great holistic Dr is west Los Angeles, Joe Sciabbarrasi. He, in fact found the HCV, not my GP. I fired my GP, needless to say.
While I was waiting for biopsy Dr Sciabbarrasi had me do the following.
1. Weekly, or every 10 days intravenous infusions of pharmaceutical purity hydrogen peroxide. These are significantly diluted in sterile water for administration.
2. Intravenous infusions of glutathione and alpha lipoic acid run after each hydrogen peroxide infusion.
3. Oral supplements to support liver healing and detoxification
4. Self care, which is extremely important, including exercise, a healthy diet (organic as much as possible), drinking 8 to 10 16 oz glasses of water per day, no alcohol, social contacts and your own inner work (be that prayer, meditation, guided imagery, etc). Reducing stress is always an important part of healing.
I did this for 5 weeks and my hep Dr ran labs. My load went from 1.79 MM to 271,000.
I am moving ahead with traditional treatment shortly, but many studies point to this:
HCV genotype 1 patients with low baseline HCV RNA defined as 600,000 IU/mL or less also noted benefit of attaining a higher % RVR and SVR from Peg, Co-Peg treatment. I will spare more details, you most likely already know them.
This is by no means a replacement, or cure, but It cannot hurt.
FYI, I also lost 8% of my body wait through diet during this time, it all helps.
Many that do not believe in Peg, Co Peg treatment may want to try this as well.
Sciabbarrasi's phone # 310-268-8466. Tell him you read this on this site.
This site is great, thank to you all for helping me.
310-268-8466
I was diagnosed in Feb 2, 09. I use a great holistic Dr is west Los Angeles, Joe Sciabbarrasi. He, in fact found the HCV, not my GP. I fired my GP, needless to say.
While I was waiting for biopsy Dr Sciabbarrasi had me do the following.
1. Weekly, or every 10 days intravenous infusions of pharmaceutical purity hydrogen peroxide. These are significantly diluted in sterile water for administration.
2. Intravenous infusions of glutathione and alpha lipoic acid run after each hydrogen peroxide infusion.
3. Oral supplements to support liver healing and detoxification
4. Self care, which is extremely important, including exercise, a healthy diet (organic as much as possible), drinking 8 to 10 16 oz glasses of water per day, no alcohol, social contacts and your own inner work (be that prayer, meditation, guided imagery, etc). Reducing stress is always an important part of healing.
I did this for 5 weeks and my hep Dr ran labs. My load went from 1.79 MM to 271,000.
I am moving ahead with traditional treatment shortly, but many studies point to this:
HCV genotype 1 patients with low baseline HCV RNA defined as 600,000 IU/mL or less also noted benefit of attaining a higher % RVR and SVR from Peg, Co-Peg treatment. I will spare more details, you most likely already know them.
This is by no means a replacement, or cure, but It cannot hurt.
FYI, I also lost 8% of my body wait through diet during this time, it all helps.
Many that do not believe in Peg, Co Peg treatment may want to try this as well.
Sciabbarrasi's phone # 310-268-8466. Tell him you read this on this site.
This site is great, thank to you all for helping me.
310-268-8466
viral loads fluctuate dramatically on their own while not on treatment for hep c, testing often benefits no one. Mine was 375,000 one month and shot up to 1,600,000 six wks later by doing nothing in particular. It probably went back to 300,000 on its own a few wks later without the peroxide. Come back when you test undetectable after you are done with your peroxide experiment, if it does. GL on your tests.
I started taking the oral Hydrogen Peroxide 35% today as well as a couple other supplements I've been taking for a while now for my Hep C.Do you think I may benefit from this?My viral load was 1.1 million last time I had it checked about 18 months ago.I plan on getting them checked again soon in hopes that they have decreased.
one of the potential problems with using hydrogen peroxide would be the increase in oxidative stress resulting in an increase in liver fibrosis. perhaps the glutahione and alpha lipoic acid chasers are to counteract this potential problem. i would need a lot more evidence before embarking on this. however i am very interested in the outcome and hope that T246 continues to post.
I'm merely wondering what is the matter with discussing it as we are nicely doing? I think it's a fascinating topic and judging by the number of posts others agree. At worst we will all learn something.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that what we've been doing, talking about it? I've seen no calls for censorship as your posts seem to imply. That said, some of us in the context of discussion and free speech feel we ought to warn others what we think the consequences of such a treatment. BTW milk thistle and SAMe have been discussed here for several years with no particular bias but pretty mixed reviews as per the study data and doctor's recommendations in any point of time. Now go to get some work done so we can skewer you behind your back.
-- Jim
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Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't that what we've been doing, talking about it? I've seen no calls for censorship as your posts seem to imply. That said, some of us in the context of discussion and free speech feel we ought to warn others what we think the consequences of such a treatment. BTW milk thistle and SAMe have been discussed here for several years with no particular bias but pretty mixed reviews as per the study data and doctor's recommendations in any point of time. Now go to get some work done so we can skewer you behind your back.
-- Jim
At that point, you'll learn, for example, that there is no evidence that milk thistle positively effects the course of HCV.
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(I listed this link earlier and it references another milk thistle study. BTW, this was presented at EASL 2009)-willy
http://www.kenes.com/easl2009/Posters/Abstract517.htm
Background: Silibinin (SIL) given intravenously at a dose of 20 mg/kg/day for 14 days had marked antiviral properties in nonresponders to full dose of peginterferon/ribavirin (SOC) combination therapy with chronic hepatitis C (Ferenci et al, Gastroenterology 2008). This confirms the in vitro findings that SIL inhibited viral replication. In this study we extended this treatment approach to on treatment nonresponders, defined as having detectable HCV-RNA after at least 24 weeks of SOC.
Methods: Nine patients HCV-RNA on treatment with 180 µg peginterferon-alfa2a (Pegasys®) and 1000-1200 mg ribavirin (Copegus®)/d who were still HCV-RNA positive after 24 weeks (mean age: 53 ± 6.6 years; male/female: 5/4; genotype 1:7, 3a:1, 4:1; liver fibrosis F4:6, F3:1, n.a.:2) were investigated. Seven patients were treatment naïve, 2 had a previous therapy (one nonresponder, one patient had relapsed twice after 24 weeks therapy). After completing at least 24 weeks of SOC therapy patients received additionally 20 mg/kg/d Silibinin (Legalon-SIL®, Rottapharm-Madaus, Monza, Italy) intravenously for 15 days. Thereafter peginterferon/ribavirin was continued. At the time of writing, all 9 patients are still on therapy. HCV-RNA was quantified by TaqMan® (Roche Diagnostics, USA) at monthly intervals on standard treatment and weekly after starting SIL treatment.
Results: On peginterferon/ribavirin HCV-RNA was quantifiable with a median log drop of 2.3 (range 0.4-5.7) at week 24. Two patients had a detectable but unquantifiable HCV-RNA (< 15 IU/mL). After 15 days of intravenous SIL therapy HCV-RNA decreased in all patients and 7 out of the 9 patients had undetectable HCV-RNA. After the end of SIL administration patients were followed for at least 12 weeks. In one patient HCV-RNA increased to 100 IU/ml, and a second course of intravenous SIL for 15 days was given. HCV-RNA became negative again and remained negative so far. All patients are still on standard of care treatment. Treatment was well tolerated.
Conclusion: Intravenous silibinin is an effective “rescue treatment” for on treatment nonresponders to full dose of peginterferon/ribavirin combination therapy.
--------------------------------------------
There could be another way of treating or pre treating, or jointly treating with a variety of means. Knowledge is dynamic; it constantly changes.
There can be no studies unless someone sponsors them. They cost a lot of money to run and most herbs have no patent. That means they are not lucrative and almost anybody can sell them. Why do a study to prove....lets say Milk thistle....is in some manner beneficial when my competitor can sell virtually the same product? This is why studies don't get done; there is no money to fund them. No studies do not automatically mean that the principle or compound is invalid.
My posting my views on this subject is not to support this treatment per se. My support is for a little more openness to possibilities. I see people push the threshold in many areas on this forum. I'm merely wondering what is the matter with discussing it as we are nicely doing? I think it's a fascinating topic and judging by the number of posts others agree. At worst we will all learn something.
What I would like to see is the outcome of t246's treatment. IF he fails we will have learned something and can tell the next guy this can't work and we might even know why.
If T246 succeeds we can have some fun and argue about that as well. Who knows? Perhaps some little area that we thought we knew something could be challenged and changed. What have we to lose?
: ) and NOW...I have to get some work done unless ya'll want to pass the hat for me.
I will also NOT type for money. That could be the bargain of the week. ; )
best,
Willy
-----------------------------------------------------------------
(I listed this link earlier and it references another milk thistle study. BTW, this was presented at EASL 2009)-willy
http://www.kenes.com/easl2009/Posters/Abstract517.htm
Background: Silibinin (SIL) given intravenously at a dose of 20 mg/kg/day for 14 days had marked antiviral properties in nonresponders to full dose of peginterferon/ribavirin (SOC) combination therapy with chronic hepatitis C (Ferenci et al, Gastroenterology 2008). This confirms the in vitro findings that SIL inhibited viral replication. In this study we extended this treatment approach to on treatment nonresponders, defined as having detectable HCV-RNA after at least 24 weeks of SOC.
Methods: Nine patients HCV-RNA on treatment with 180 µg peginterferon-alfa2a (Pegasys®) and 1000-1200 mg ribavirin (Copegus®)/d who were still HCV-RNA positive after 24 weeks (mean age: 53 ± 6.6 years; male/female: 5/4; genotype 1:7, 3a:1, 4:1; liver fibrosis F4:6, F3:1, n.a.:2) were investigated. Seven patients were treatment naïve, 2 had a previous therapy (one nonresponder, one patient had relapsed twice after 24 weeks therapy). After completing at least 24 weeks of SOC therapy patients received additionally 20 mg/kg/d Silibinin (Legalon-SIL®, Rottapharm-Madaus, Monza, Italy) intravenously for 15 days. Thereafter peginterferon/ribavirin was continued. At the time of writing, all 9 patients are still on therapy. HCV-RNA was quantified by TaqMan® (Roche Diagnostics, USA) at monthly intervals on standard treatment and weekly after starting SIL treatment.
Results: On peginterferon/ribavirin HCV-RNA was quantifiable with a median log drop of 2.3 (range 0.4-5.7) at week 24. Two patients had a detectable but unquantifiable HCV-RNA (< 15 IU/mL). After 15 days of intravenous SIL therapy HCV-RNA decreased in all patients and 7 out of the 9 patients had undetectable HCV-RNA. After the end of SIL administration patients were followed for at least 12 weeks. In one patient HCV-RNA increased to 100 IU/ml, and a second course of intravenous SIL for 15 days was given. HCV-RNA became negative again and remained negative so far. All patients are still on standard of care treatment. Treatment was well tolerated.
Conclusion: Intravenous silibinin is an effective “rescue treatment” for on treatment nonresponders to full dose of peginterferon/ribavirin combination therapy.
--------------------------------------------
There could be another way of treating or pre treating, or jointly treating with a variety of means. Knowledge is dynamic; it constantly changes.
There can be no studies unless someone sponsors them. They cost a lot of money to run and most herbs have no patent. That means they are not lucrative and almost anybody can sell them. Why do a study to prove....lets say Milk thistle....is in some manner beneficial when my competitor can sell virtually the same product? This is why studies don't get done; there is no money to fund them. No studies do not automatically mean that the principle or compound is invalid.
My posting my views on this subject is not to support this treatment per se. My support is for a little more openness to possibilities. I see people push the threshold in many areas on this forum. I'm merely wondering what is the matter with discussing it as we are nicely doing? I think it's a fascinating topic and judging by the number of posts others agree. At worst we will all learn something.
What I would like to see is the outcome of t246's treatment. IF he fails we will have learned something and can tell the next guy this can't work and we might even know why.
If T246 succeeds we can have some fun and argue about that as well. Who knows? Perhaps some little area that we thought we knew something could be challenged and changed. What have we to lose?
: ) and NOW...I have to get some work done unless ya'll want to pass the hat for me.
I will also NOT type for money. That could be the bargain of the week. ; )
best,
Willy
Marc, I am a researcher as part of my trade. I have looked at a ton of stuff as I am sure many people do when they are diagnosed. This is scary as hell. Agreed, there is a lot of hearsay about many things related to treatments for HCV. I am already in the thick of understanding the traditional med model. I do not expect this to be a walk in the park and If I am successful with SVR it will be the primary result of the traditional treatment because the current drugs used are the ONLY ones that are known to achieve this.
I feel that everything I am doing is helping me feel physically better right now and at very least I am going into traditional treatment feeling strong. I think that is a good thing.
Whether all this contributes to SVR should I get that, I will most likely never know, but I will never second guess being positive, trying and managing my own treatment with my two Dr's.
One day at a time. I wish everyone on this site were SVR.
I feel that everything I am doing is helping me feel physically better right now and at very least I am going into traditional treatment feeling strong. I think that is a good thing.
Whether all this contributes to SVR should I get that, I will most likely never know, but I will never second guess being positive, trying and managing my own treatment with my two Dr's.
One day at a time. I wish everyone on this site were SVR.
I have to disagree with you. When gastros decide to specialize in hepatology they are devoting their life to the research, treatment and cure for hcv and other liver diseases.
I can't fathom they would not entertain H202 infusions if they thought there was a possibility it would enhance SOC. Hepc research is constantly evolving and tremendous amounts of valuable information and progressive/aggressive thinking towards the treatment and cure of hcv have come out of these conferences. I have yet to see endorsement of H202.
Mike, the bottom line is if you are comfortable with it and feel it will work towards a more favorable outcome once you start tx that is what is important.
Good Luck
Trinity
I can't fathom they would not entertain H202 infusions if they thought there was a possibility it would enhance SOC. Hepc research is constantly evolving and tremendous amounts of valuable information and progressive/aggressive thinking towards the treatment and cure of hcv have come out of these conferences. I have yet to see endorsement of H202.
Mike, the bottom line is if you are comfortable with it and feel it will work towards a more favorable outcome once you start tx that is what is important.
Good Luck
Trinity
As I'm sure you are aware the limitation of all the things you are trying is that there is no statistically valid controlled study to say whether they work or not. There is a lot of hearsay. Indeed, there is unquestionably a considerable amount of quackery and outright unsubstantiated claims in the herbal and alternative medicine industry.
As you also know, whether these steps seem to work in a particular is not meaningful evidence from a scientific point of view. You might have had exactly the same result with a different regimen. Individual testimonials don't really help those of us who are seeking to cure our HCV very much.
I'll be interested to hear if your perspective changes once you start combination therapy in a few months. At that point, you'll be in the thick of the traditional medical model. If you don't have anxiety, it will be unusual. Hopefully things will go well, but they may not. At that point, you'll learn, for example, that there is no evidence that milk thistle positively effects the course of HCV. This experience may alter your perspective on the alternative treatments and supplements. Or it may not. If things go well, you'll be convinced it's because of the alternative remedies.
Good luck!
As you also know, whether these steps seem to work in a particular is not meaningful evidence from a scientific point of view. You might have had exactly the same result with a different regimen. Individual testimonials don't really help those of us who are seeking to cure our HCV very much.
I'll be interested to hear if your perspective changes once you start combination therapy in a few months. At that point, you'll be in the thick of the traditional medical model. If you don't have anxiety, it will be unusual. Hopefully things will go well, but they may not. At that point, you'll learn, for example, that there is no evidence that milk thistle positively effects the course of HCV. This experience may alter your perspective on the alternative treatments and supplements. Or it may not. If things go well, you'll be convinced it's because of the alternative remedies.
Good luck!
Trinity, please remember that Intravenous infusions of glutathione and alpha lipoic acid run after each hydrogen peroxide infusion.
I have posted some thoughtful research from credible sources.
I do not think that most teaching Universities would recommend much outside of standard treatment, I just do not think it is in their DNA. The nursing professionals so far, however have been very bullish on this.
Is it not worth the try?, that is what I thought through.
I decided, yes.
I have posted some thoughtful research from credible sources.
I do not think that most teaching Universities would recommend much outside of standard treatment, I just do not think it is in their DNA. The nursing professionals so far, however have been very bullish on this.
Is it not worth the try?, that is what I thought through.
I decided, yes.
Willy, I think you are right on the money. I have done 5 of these treatments and will do one more this Monday. I hope to begin Peg/Copeg tx on May 8th if insurance set up goes smoothly. If this gets delayed a week, I may do one additional round of the H202 IV. After the first month of tx I will be tested and we will see the results.
Even If I am lucky enough to be RVR other factors could contribute. First things first though because RVR would be great anyone of us and it is no sure thing to say the least. Also, I am doing Milk Thistle, Liver Care, other supplements, eating well, drinking 150 oz. water per day, exercising a lot, 6x 1hr plus bike rides per week and weights 3x per week. Lots of stuff, but I figure it all may be a good thing.
Geez, I hope so.
Can't assume anything, all we can do is try.
Anything IV is not easy for me, but I felt and feel the H202 is doing good. We will see.
Thanks
T
Even If I am lucky enough to be RVR other factors could contribute. First things first though because RVR would be great anyone of us and it is no sure thing to say the least. Also, I am doing Milk Thistle, Liver Care, other supplements, eating well, drinking 150 oz. water per day, exercising a lot, 6x 1hr plus bike rides per week and weights 3x per week. Lots of stuff, but I figure it all may be a good thing.
Geez, I hope so.
Can't assume anything, all we can do is try.
Anything IV is not easy for me, but I felt and feel the H202 is doing good. We will see.
Thanks
T
Willy,
Considering the amount of time SOC has been on the market, I wonder why the AASLD or American Liver Foundation hasn't advocated or endorsed this? They are some of the most credible, intelligent and well established hepatologists and researchers in the world.
Wouldn't they have recommended hydrogen peroxide treatment as pre-treatment protocol for everyone by now? It would certainly give more credence to what a few individuals are claiming with no hard data and studies to back it up.
Considering the amount of time SOC has been on the market, I wonder why the AASLD or American Liver Foundation hasn't advocated or endorsed this? They are some of the most credible, intelligent and well established hepatologists and researchers in the world.
Wouldn't they have recommended hydrogen peroxide treatment as pre-treatment protocol for everyone by now? It would certainly give more credence to what a few individuals are claiming with no hard data and studies to back it up.
So where I come out is "blitzkreig" because someone may read this and think "wow", maybe I should try this stuff and pick up the phone and call the phone number so thoughtfully provider by the poster in the first post of this thread.
=======================================
That's valid and fair. I can't control what others might do or how they use the board.
People get pushed to treat everyday and I suppose that I could also harm people by posting information which could cause some people to wait to treat.
I just wanted to interject and ask; what if this worked? I don't know exactly where one draws lines. As soon as one draws them one has to some extent painted themselves into a corner. Many aspects of this forum color outside of the lines and push the thresholds; use of rescue drugs, extending treatments, preloading, surges in dosing etc.
I've got to get something done today, as interesting as this is.....
best,
Willy
=======================================
That's valid and fair. I can't control what others might do or how they use the board.
People get pushed to treat everyday and I suppose that I could also harm people by posting information which could cause some people to wait to treat.
I just wanted to interject and ask; what if this worked? I don't know exactly where one draws lines. As soon as one draws them one has to some extent painted themselves into a corner. Many aspects of this forum color outside of the lines and push the thresholds; use of rescue drugs, extending treatments, preloading, surges in dosing etc.
I've got to get something done today, as interesting as this is.....
best,
Willy
I don't and can't be in the position of defending this treatment since I'm not up on the regimen or know much about it.
HOWEVER....from reading the thread it was very clear that the solution was dilute and that it was IV; not per the link you provided.
I'm content to let thread evolve. It may be unfounded.
I think I can point out many threads in which any number of alternatives have been slighted saying that they don't work. Even so it seems that recently in this spring EASL there have been positive studies presented on SAM-e and IV milk thistle.
I don't know the answer but I'm sure that anyone could provide a link or two which proves them to be worthless.
My major point is that by remaining open we may learn more than when we chase people away. If nothing else we refine our arguments. ; )
best,
Willy
HOWEVER....from reading the thread it was very clear that the solution was dilute and that it was IV; not per the link you provided.
I'm content to let thread evolve. It may be unfounded.
I think I can point out many threads in which any number of alternatives have been slighted saying that they don't work. Even so it seems that recently in this spring EASL there have been positive studies presented on SAM-e and IV milk thistle.
I don't know the answer but I'm sure that anyone could provide a link or two which proves them to be worthless.
My major point is that by remaining open we may learn more than when we chase people away. If nothing else we refine our arguments. ; )
best,
Willy
First of all the person did not lower pre-treatment viral load by his own account. The drop was less than one-log which can be more than covered by testing variance. Source: Mitchel Friedman at CCOptions Web Site. Beyond that, we already have established dangers (see links by Bill and myself) with no stated benefits other than anecdotal which for all we know may be someone not even treating but promoting a web site that sells the stuff. So where I come out is "blitzkreig" because someone may read this and think "wow", maybe I should try this stuff and pick up the phone and call the phone number so thoughtfully provider by the poster in the first post of this thread.
I am not enamored with the treatment itself but am interested in any means or the best means at one might lower viral load pre-treatment. This may or may not prove to be of use but I'm not aware of many studies that have attempted to do this; I'm just curious.
I've also tried not to endorse the product. I am in favor of such odd ducks finding some refuge in forums. If they succeed we learn something. IF they fail we learn something and actually have a result to warn people of next time it comes up. I don't think that tolerance or openness = encouragement.
So far as past trials/ threads I think that I would distinguish expecting someone to do hydrogen peroxide therapy thinking they could never have to treat *versus* someone who had the intention of doing a short course of (whatever type of therapy one would choose) an alternative in order to lower the viral load and then treat w/ SOC
Once again; I don't think that I'm endorsing or encouraging. This person already did this treatment. I just want to hear how the story ends. It could be that through keeping communication open we may see T246 treat lets say in a month and then perhaps a 4 week PCR. So in a bit more than 2 months we might have an interesting outcome to discuss. That may weigh a lot more than us "theo'risin" .
I'm just interested and don't see that much harm in keeping this open.
OR...... we can blitzkreig any such posts of course. ; )
best,
Willy
I've also tried not to endorse the product. I am in favor of such odd ducks finding some refuge in forums. If they succeed we learn something. IF they fail we learn something and actually have a result to warn people of next time it comes up. I don't think that tolerance or openness = encouragement.
So far as past trials/ threads I think that I would distinguish expecting someone to do hydrogen peroxide therapy thinking they could never have to treat *versus* someone who had the intention of doing a short course of (whatever type of therapy one would choose) an alternative in order to lower the viral load and then treat w/ SOC
Once again; I don't think that I'm endorsing or encouraging. This person already did this treatment. I just want to hear how the story ends. It could be that through keeping communication open we may see T246 treat lets say in a month and then perhaps a 4 week PCR. So in a bit more than 2 months we might have an interesting outcome to discuss. That may weigh a lot more than us "theo'risin" .
I'm just interested and don't see that much harm in keeping this open.
OR...... we can blitzkreig any such posts of course. ; )
best,
Willy
From Sloane Kettering:
-----------------
DA Warns about Use of High-Strength Hydrogen Peroxide Products
August 8, 2006
The FDA has issued a warning about use of high-strength hydrogen peroxide products, including 35 percent Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide. The letter states that consumption of hydrogen peroxide products for medicinal purposes can be harmful and fatal and it advises consumers to stop taking such products immediately.
The FDA also sent warning letters to two firms that sell 35 percent hydrogen peroxide products on Web sites under false claims of treating AIDS, cancers, emphysema, and other diseases.
Hydrogen peroxide is often consumed orally by cancer patients as a form of alternative therapy.
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69731.cfm
-------------------------------
(From Cancer.Org)
Overview
Available scientific evidence does not support claims that putting oxygen-releasing chemicals into a person's body is effective in treating cancer. It may even be dangerous. There have been reports of patient deaths from this method.
How is it promoted for use?
Different varieties of oxygen therapy are promoted as alternative treatments for dozens of diseases, including certain types of cancer, asthma, emphysema, AIDS, arthritis, heart and vascular diseases, multiple sclerosis, and Alzheimer’s disease.
Some supporters claim that cancer cells thrive in low-oxygen environments. They believe adding oxygen to the body creates an oxygen-rich condition in which cancer cells cannot survive. Supporters of this type of treatment claim that it increases the efficiency of all cells in the body and increases energy, promotes the production of antioxidants, and enhances the immune system.
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Oxygen_Therapy.asp?sitearea=ETO&viewmode=print&
From "the body" related on Ozone Therapy
Dr. Frasino: 1. How can it be said that ozone therapy is a fraud? Easy. I just open my mouth and say (or flex my fingers and type), "OZONE IS A FRAUD." See, it's as easy as that. It's also the truth.
http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Archive/Hepatitis/Q198201.html
"Since this lower starting viral load was artificially induced, who is to say it will yield the same response as a naturally occurring immune response low starting viral load. "
==============================================
Who is to say? Not me.
I think intuitively one knows that it is usually easier to get to undetectable from, lets say 75,000ml/IU than from over 10 million. I can think of one Vertex lab rat who was about 27,000,000; that is a decent difference in base line log. We also sometimes see response rates stall right about where people clear. This could be due in part to resistance issues. If one was able to overcome the virii with the initial attack one might simply clear and stay clear. It's the slower response curves that are known more for rebound or relapse. I'd be more likely to guess that a starting low viral load would be of benefit, all things remaining the same. The slower curve could also be due to low RBC or WBC or other lab values which tank during TX.
We don't know if all things DO remain the same though. What if the alternative therapy harms the body or immune response? I mentioned that possibility in my first post in this thread.
Anyway; the Milk thistle IV might also be a decent way to go and achieve some sort of comparable results. Maybe some external method of lowering VL won't work but it looks as if it could to me.
best,
Willy
==============================================
Who is to say? Not me.
I think intuitively one knows that it is usually easier to get to undetectable from, lets say 75,000ml/IU than from over 10 million. I can think of one Vertex lab rat who was about 27,000,000; that is a decent difference in base line log. We also sometimes see response rates stall right about where people clear. This could be due in part to resistance issues. If one was able to overcome the virii with the initial attack one might simply clear and stay clear. It's the slower response curves that are known more for rebound or relapse. I'd be more likely to guess that a starting low viral load would be of benefit, all things remaining the same. The slower curve could also be due to low RBC or WBC or other lab values which tank during TX.
We don't know if all things DO remain the same though. What if the alternative therapy harms the body or immune response? I mentioned that possibility in my first post in this thread.
Anyway; the Milk thistle IV might also be a decent way to go and achieve some sort of comparable results. Maybe some external method of lowering VL won't work but it looks as if it could to me.
best,
Willy
Apache: This goes against many many studies that say RVR is the most important prognostic factor, not low VL. Has this changed, or is this a difference in expert opinion, or expert a different conclusion.
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Two different animals and one does not contradict the other.
Low pre-treatment viral load is a *pre-treatment* predictor of SVR. RVR is also a predictor of SVR, but of course, not pre-treatment.
Once treatment begins, RVR will trump most pre-treatment predictors including viral load, but of course we don't have the advantage of knowing that when we start treatment.
Willy,
I think we have to be very cautious endorsing (or let's say not slamming LOL) some potentially dangerous treatments in let's say the "quack" category if we only have anecdotal data to support it but scientific data to support the dangers. Can't say I'm positive that fits here but seems to at least at first glance of the links "bill" posted earlier in the thread. Hydrogen Peroxide has been around for a long time as a quack cure for all sorts of things and will be glad to even data a Peroxide Blonde if proven wrong.
- Jim
-------
Two different animals and one does not contradict the other.
Low pre-treatment viral load is a *pre-treatment* predictor of SVR. RVR is also a predictor of SVR, but of course, not pre-treatment.
Once treatment begins, RVR will trump most pre-treatment predictors including viral load, but of course we don't have the advantage of knowing that when we start treatment.
Willy,
I think we have to be very cautious endorsing (or let's say not slamming LOL) some potentially dangerous treatments in let's say the "quack" category if we only have anecdotal data to support it but scientific data to support the dangers. Can't say I'm positive that fits here but seems to at least at first glance of the links "bill" posted earlier in the thread. Hydrogen Peroxide has been around for a long time as a quack cure for all sorts of things and will be glad to even data a Peroxide Blonde if proven wrong.
- Jim
thank you for this interesting discussion.
anything that can be done to improve the dismal response of G1's to treatment makes sense in my book. please keep us informed of your H202 treatments, including viral loads.
HR, aka Hepatitis Researcher, spoke to the usefulness of lowering viral load prior to treatment in relation to a hemo purifying device. no sure if the following link is the device he was referring to, but gives you an idea. http://www.hepatitiscentral.com/mt/archives/2009/02/medical_device_1.html
anything that can be done to improve the dismal response of G1's to treatment makes sense in my book. please keep us informed of your H202 treatments, including viral loads.
HR, aka Hepatitis Researcher, spoke to the usefulness of lowering viral load prior to treatment in relation to a hemo purifying device. no sure if the following link is the device he was referring to, but gives you an idea. http://www.hepatitiscentral.com/mt/archives/2009/02/medical_device_1.html
Willy,
'Secondly, the means in which they were achieved would not confer any resistance issues which one may start to see after weeks of SOC."
===================================================
My thoughts exactly.
Since this lower starting viral load was artificially induced, who is to say it will yield the same response as a naturally occurring immune response low starting viral load.
apache
'Secondly, the means in which they were achieved would not confer any resistance issues which one may start to see after weeks of SOC."
===================================================
My thoughts exactly.
Since this lower starting viral load was artificially induced, who is to say it will yield the same response as a naturally occurring immune response low starting viral load.
apache
Apache;
"Granted, once one has a RVR status, then low vl becomes a positive factor in some studies in getting to SVR, but as always RVR tops all predictive factors."
-------------------------------
No real argument; I should have made my sentence more conditional; with lower viral loads one might see a higher percentage of RVR's (and thereby shorter treatment times).
--------------------------------
Jim seems to agree; "I don't think there's any dispute that low pre-tx viral load has a positive association with SVR"
-------------------------
I don't make any claims but of course, this is a type of pre treatment conditioning that could defy prior studies; I'm not sure they would translate. First, one might see very low viral loads. Secondly, the means in which they were achieved would not confer any resistance issues which one may start to see after weeks of SOC.
As I made clear earlier several times and Jim also questioned; where is the proof that this works at lowering viral load and where is the proof that it is safe?
Jim, my experience has to do with anecdotal accounts; not studies. These type treatments tend to be closer to a cottage industry done in naturopathic parlors and less so in major hospitals. They are not FDA approved (or so I thought) and therefore I didn't think that a doctor could even do them. Once again; I don't really know.
The way the AMA and FDA are set up if it turned out that rolling in dirt could *cure* HCV no one in the United States would sponsor a trial; certainly not big Pharma. I don't know what organization or company would champion the cause of doing a trial. I believe that most of this type work is done overseas. I don't know that it can happen here until it happens elsewhere. Obviously where there is little financial incentive there will also be a information vacuum.
T246: Thanks for the reply. Obviously there may not be a lot of proof surrounding this idea. I hope that you can understand some of the suspicion surrounding the treatment and therefore the comments. Perhaps this thread can serve as a start for hearing arguments for or against this procedure. I will/would be interested in reading about the progress; seeing labs, results or better understanding the principles, and rewards or dangers inherent in this type of pre Tx conditioning. I also wonder about the cost of TX and if it is all out of pocket or any insurance coverage?
Jim If I find some studies I'll post them or related info.
Apache, thanks for the thoughtful questions. I don't know the answers but it is an interesting approach. There could also be other type adjuncts which could be used to lower viral load. The principle appeals to me, not per se the vehicle. Here is another possible means;
http://www.kenes.com/easl2009/Posters/Abstract517.htm
best,
Willy
"Granted, once one has a RVR status, then low vl becomes a positive factor in some studies in getting to SVR, but as always RVR tops all predictive factors."
-------------------------------
No real argument; I should have made my sentence more conditional; with lower viral loads one might see a higher percentage of RVR's (and thereby shorter treatment times).
--------------------------------
Jim seems to agree; "I don't think there's any dispute that low pre-tx viral load has a positive association with SVR"
-------------------------
I don't make any claims but of course, this is a type of pre treatment conditioning that could defy prior studies; I'm not sure they would translate. First, one might see very low viral loads. Secondly, the means in which they were achieved would not confer any resistance issues which one may start to see after weeks of SOC.
As I made clear earlier several times and Jim also questioned; where is the proof that this works at lowering viral load and where is the proof that it is safe?
Jim, my experience has to do with anecdotal accounts; not studies. These type treatments tend to be closer to a cottage industry done in naturopathic parlors and less so in major hospitals. They are not FDA approved (or so I thought) and therefore I didn't think that a doctor could even do them. Once again; I don't really know.
The way the AMA and FDA are set up if it turned out that rolling in dirt could *cure* HCV no one in the United States would sponsor a trial; certainly not big Pharma. I don't know what organization or company would champion the cause of doing a trial. I believe that most of this type work is done overseas. I don't know that it can happen here until it happens elsewhere. Obviously where there is little financial incentive there will also be a information vacuum.
T246: Thanks for the reply. Obviously there may not be a lot of proof surrounding this idea. I hope that you can understand some of the suspicion surrounding the treatment and therefore the comments. Perhaps this thread can serve as a start for hearing arguments for or against this procedure. I will/would be interested in reading about the progress; seeing labs, results or better understanding the principles, and rewards or dangers inherent in this type of pre Tx conditioning. I also wonder about the cost of TX and if it is all out of pocket or any insurance coverage?
Jim If I find some studies I'll post them or related info.
Apache, thanks for the thoughtful questions. I don't know the answers but it is an interesting approach. There could also be other type adjuncts which could be used to lower viral load. The principle appeals to me, not per se the vehicle. Here is another possible means;
http://www.kenes.com/easl2009/Posters/Abstract517.htm
best,
Willy
correction in my above post, the end of the last sentence should read....
'or a different expert conclusion'
'or a different expert conclusion'
Yes I know about that study done in Spain in 2007
<400,000 vl and SVR rates where dramatical better.
They even go so far as to say
"Hepatitis C virus (HCV) genotype and pre-treatment viral load are the most important viral prognostic factors in patients treated for chronic hepatitis C"
This goes against many many studies that say RVR is the most important prognostic factor, not low VL. Has this changed, or is this a difference in expert opinion, or expert a different conclusion.
apache
<400,000 vl and SVR rates where dramatical better.
They even go so far as to say
"Hepatitis C virus (HCV) genotype and pre-treatment viral load are the most important viral prognostic factors in patients treated for chronic hepatitis C"
This goes against many many studies that say RVR is the most important prognostic factor, not low VL. Has this changed, or is this a difference in expert opinion, or expert a different conclusion.
apache
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