"no respect for life" vs treatments

Hello there,
     I understand that people here get upset when they hear that victims of hepC abuse alcohol. Understandable so, as they show

[Forseegood]

you sound upset over something you heard here...my take, but everyone here has their own opinions, from soup to nuts...no one member speaks for every member, though some of us might agree or disagree with a member, etc...maybe I'm wrong, but I'm interpreting your post like you think there is a consensus or something, there isn't...maybe you could discuss your points with the poster who upset you...they might of not qualified their statements, and you could of misinterpreted what they meant..just guessing...

anyway, sometimes I put a lot of effort into qualifying almost each statement I make, so as not to have people mis-read my intentions, etc...maybe that's all it was with the statemens(s) you read...just my take...a good rule of thumb for me, is if you don't like someone's post, there are many others to pick from...

[willows]

Drinking is the one thing out of all the vices you listed that will do the most harm to your liver while you have Hep C.  Smoking and over eating do not help, but to continue to drink with a damaged liver does more damage, very much quicker and more severely in a person with Hep C.   There are doctors that will not treat someone with Hep C if they know the patient is continuing to drink and I do not think it is a judgemental decision, but a medical one.   Drinking with Hep C also makes a person not fit for a liver transplant, which some of us are looking at sometime in our future, to quit drinking is so important, it has been made a criteria of being eligible.

So I am not a doctor, but I can see much evidence that the medical profession feels it is a darn good idea to quit drinking if you have hep C.  For your health.

Willow

[hepper38]

Just to let you know that I am not

[Forseegood]

can't fight the logic of what you just posted...this is a forum for people suffering with hepatitis after all...

[Harry Potter]

I agree with the first poster when it comes to people getting very charged over the issue of alcohol, and not just even related to Hep C!  My office mate is a recovering alcoholic (never did AA, just the cold-turkey method of white-knuckling) & is extremely critical of anyone who drinks anything at all, even a glass of wine with dinner.  She refers to it as people "doing alcohol" as if you were "doing" heroin or crack.  She gets so worked up about it, even hearing people talk about it in the office causes her to yell at them and storm off.  Seeing people drink in movies--even not to the point of getting drunk--does the same.  Yet she is also a gambling addict (my take) and smokes cigarettes quite heavily, and if anyone says anything about cigs, for example (she believes there is no proof to the claim that smoking causes cancer), she will nullify that with, "Well, what about alcohol?  More people die from drunk driving than from lung cancer," etc. etc. (not that this is true, of course).

I haven't even told her that I've stopped drinking entirely due to my Hep C, because she would probably gloat over it, or praise me to no end for stopping (I never had a drinking problem, I just would have a cocktail with dinner some of the time).  

I feel that we shouldn't judge until we've walked in another person's shoes.  I used to be pretty obese as a teen, ate junk food & never exercised.  I've been fit for about 20 years, and eat a well-balanced diet & love exercise, but that doesn't give me the right to judge someone who's obese who's had a heart attack.

The other day a poster posted about her husband having Hep C & still drinking, and how she was drinking as well.  I was unclear about whether or not she was Hep C positive, but several posts attacked her for being alcholic.  There is a huge difference between drinking and being an alcoholic--although my office mate would disagree on that one.

[Forseegood]

If I misenterpeted your post, just posting away here cause I've been put on hold h#ll from the airlines...anyway, I agree that those other things are not condusive to health either...but I do think alcohol is probably the worst offender...with just the disease or the treatment for it...

[Forseegood]

funny how you can agree and disagree, I agree with you that your office mate is protesting too much...and that she sounds like she's got a whole lotta issues she's working out herself...I made sure in my posts to the poster you were talking about that I wasn't saying everyone that drank casually is an alcoholic...Sometimes that can go both ways too, and if you talk of AA or something like that, people automatically think you think they are an alcoholic, etc...My mom drinks a glass of wine a day, and has for years, she enjoys it..she's not an alcoholic, I know many people like this...

but I don't agree with you that this poster was *attacked* necessarily, some people just have very matter of fact styles in their writing, I'm kind of used to it by now...tough love I guess...

I just think that when people come here day in and day out, and you hear of all the horror stories that come with this long treatment for hep...

Or that a person can't seem to clear the disease even though they've treated multiple times, or that a person has to be wait-listed for a liver transplant...or  people who talk of people they know and love who have died from hep c and drinking...and if they could of stopped drinking,, they might of had a chance against the disease and be alive now...

That when you see these things over and over, and then you hear of a person who is drinking with hep c, it probably just scares you a little, it does me a bit...I don't think anyone meant to sound judgmental or be attacking...it's just that this is some scarry stuff as it is.....without throwing alcohol into the mix, I just think most of the posters were just really worried for that new person, and it might of come off as the other....just my take...be well...

[Harry Potter]

No, I didn't say you said that poster was an alcoholic; I'm referring to several posts where the original poster (does she even have Hep C?) was told she's going to die sooner if she continues to drink.  Another one said "Nice knowing you, sorry the beast won."  I was offended just reading those!  It wasn't clear from the original post how serious the "drinking" is for her or her husband.  Granted, for him it would be worse, having Hep C.  But I'm sensitive hearing the subject of alcohol being attacked, since I hear about it at work so often.  I do agree it's not wise to drink while having Hep C, but otherwise it should be fair game, as long as the person's not underage, or drinking and driving.  

I always wondered what would happen if, during a lunch outing with my office mate, if someone were to order a drink at a restaurant, what her reaction would be.  I assume she'd storm off and walk back to the office.  She's actually hijacked bottles of alcohol out of people's homes & veritably held them hostage--I'm not kidding!

[ladybug52]

I understand what you're saying. We all pick our poisons. I think, (and that's an overstatement of my mental abilities) that it's fear that keeps some of us from drinking. It's hard to compare it to anything else that's as toxic to your liver. Yes, smoking is bad, but worse if you have a tumor in your lungs. Don't mean to speak for anyone but myself. I wasn't trying to be rude to Kim, but when I reread what I had said, I sounded judgemental.


Sorry Kim!

Bug

[Forseegood]

cause youre not an alcoholic? I do think that if youre living with an alcoholic, who is trying to give up drinking, the nice thing to do is give up drinking yourself, at least if youre in his company...at least while he's in the first stages of trying to give it up, which is the most tempting time for him.. In this case, this poster sais it was hard for her to give it up, and her husband wasn't even trying to give it up, and he has hep c.....my sister is an alcoholic, and my parents don't drink in front of her cause obviously it's hard for her...I think these facts are getting lost in these threads...but I'm done with trying to oversee facts, it's certainly out of my control, ha ha! it's a beutiful day outside! hope all is well...

[GoofyDad]

As one who has a liver that's in pretty bad shape following years of boozing and hep C, I'm certainly not about to recommend drinking in excess to anyone, especially not anyone with Hep C.

Still, I have always wondered about the vigor with which alcohol consumption is slammed here. Again, I ain't arguing that it's not bad for us.  I think we all know it is - but why make this into a moral judgement?

Smoking is bad for you. Horrid in fact. It trims years off anyone's life - too often many years - and it's particularly bad for people with Hep. Most people know that - and if they can't quit smoking there you have it. No one vilifies them for their habit - nor should they.

And what about the overweight? Major liver issue there - but for some reason  one that gets a pass. As it should. So why is booze singled out? And I  don't buy that it's because it has a bigger impact on health for one minute - if anyone is that concerned about the health of the tipplers, they ought to be equally worried about chubby smokers. There's some value judgements being made, if you ask me.

We're all left to do what we can and do what feels right for us.

Google 'obesity cirrhosis' and this is one of many hits:

One common cause of liver failure (and thus a common reason for transplantation of the liver) is cryptogenic cirrhosis (cryptogenic meaning that the cause of the cirrhosis is unknown). Doctors now believe that a large number of patients with cryptogenic cirrhosis are actually patients in the late stages of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. Doctors and public health officials project that obesity related liver diseases (cryptogenic cirrhosis and liver cancer) will become the leading cause of liver failure and liver transplantation in the not too distant future.

From here: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=46582

[pigeonca]

People get so bent out of shape about drinking with hcv, yet most of us had the virus for decades without knowing.  Therefore, we were probably drinking (unless we never drank at all) with hcv.

I've never been much of a drinker - got drunk a couple-three times in college and hated it.  Ever since then I've never had more than one or two drinks in a day, and never more than once or twice a week, if that - until about 3 or 4 years ago when I read that a glass of red wine a day is good for your heart.  So, unaware of the virus lurking in my liver, I had a glass or two with dinner most nights.  

Once diagnosed, I realized I couldn't have a drop during treatment, but during the intervening months - while seeing a multitude of different docs, getting biopsied, filling up bottles and bottles of blood - I must confess that I had a few glasses at restaurants where the food deserved it - not many, because I cook very simply and can seldom afford to eat at the kind of place that warrants a good cabernet, but a few.  And I was UND at 4 weeks, so I guess it didn't hurt.  

Now, off treatment, I'm waiting for the 6 month SVR (I hope) before I return to my usual drinking.  I've actually become something of a wine connoisseur (but not a wine snob; it's double the pleasure when I find a good bargain), and I really look forward to visiting more vineyards and taking more classes in wine.  

As I understand it, alcohol isn't good for our livers, but neither are half the meds we all take.  After being diagnosed with hep c, I was sent to a psychiatric NP for an anti-depressant prescription.  I asked for one that doesn't cause weight gain, like Wellbutrin.  She looked up Wellbutrin in her book and said, "It's hepato-toxic."  Then she looked up another, and another and another - Prozac, Efflexor, the usual suspects - and exclaimed, "They're ALL hepato-toxic."  I believe in moderation in all things, including my vices.

[Forseegood]

Goofydad:  Still, I have always wondered about the vigor with which alcohol consumption is slammed here. Again, I ain't arguing that it's not bad for us. I think we all know it is - but why make this into a moral judgement?

To state the obvious? Cause it seems to be an overriding problem with many people who have hepatitis...and I know I'll get flack for this, cause some people will say that I'm adding to the stigma of a disease that's already stigmatized, etc etc...which is unfair to the many people who acquired this by other means- accidentally through blood borne transmissions, etc, and many of this segment have no other addictive issues, etc, etc...and there are many, many patients who have hepatitis who don't have alcoholic issues and it's unfair that they should be lumped into this....I don't mean to do that...

But the fact remains, that many, many people who do have hepatitis, have drug and alcohol issues...many people acquired hepatitis because of drug and alcohol issues...just look at whatever stats they have on this...

I realize at this point....it's not kosher to say this, so we don't...But this is something that many of us have had to surmount....This *remains* a challenge for many people with hepatitis and alcohol still kills many people with hepatitis, perhaps more so then these other agents you've mentioned...I'd venture to say so...

Even if you take a sampling of members on this very board...and some other boards I know of...there are people who have SVRed that smoke and/or are overweight...You certainly could make a case for saying these other agents make SVR more difficult?...The achievement AND the process....But I know of a few people here and elsewhere who have recently SVRed - who smoke and/or are overweight...so it's by no means unheard of...

But, if someone were to continue *drinking alcoholically* - I doubt that they would be in any position to even undergo treatment in the first place....much less be successful with it...we've all heard more then once how patients have reported getting deathly ill having tried alcohol while on treatment, even after finishing....alcohol seems to act as it's own kind of "antibuse" against drinking it while treating...

I'd venture to say that there are many alcoholics out there who have this disease, yet are unable to even consider treating it with the current drugs - for fear of having to give up alcohol to treat...thus, risking their lives in a very real way...

If you look at the stats on just alcoholic cirrhosis, even without hep c, it's pretty alarming...I've had a few docs tell me alcoholism is one of the more frustrating, defeating and persistent obstacles to having success in treating people with this disease...

As to any *moral* question, far be it from me...this has nothing to do with morals from my perspective...I just hate to see people wasting their lives, though I know not everyone can be saved from their addictions, everyone is on their own path and it sure ain't up to me....my sister taught me that much...but I do think it's a legitimate issue to talk about as it pertains to hepatitis, and boy have I ever...:)

[jmjm530]

Goofy: Still, I have always wondered about the vigor with which alcohol consumption is slammed here.
---------------------------------------
I half expected Carrie Nation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Nation ) to rise from the grave to post in one of these threads, or maybe she has :)

But more seriously, not everyone has a drinking problem, and many of us are allowed by our doctors to drink in social moderation. Practically a teetottler (Maybe 3-4 light beers a month max) I've been called an alcoholic here because I've posted some studies and remarks from my doctor that don't tow the temperance line. Carrie Nation would be proud :)

-- Jim

[nygirl7]

Personally for me the real subject matter with that person is that they are quite aware of what they are doing yet have no real desire to stop at all.   And I'm sorry while it's not good to smoke a pack of Marlboro's or eat three cheeseburgers for dinner - it's NOT the same as getting purposefully drunk every night.  We are not talking about 1 - 2 drinks we are talking ten drinks which to me is pretty damn hard core KNOWING you have a liver condition or the person you does does as well.

Many people come here KNOWING full well the CORRECT answer yet they ask "Is it ok for me to drink on treatment?" well they aren't here really asking a question what they are looking for is for ONE person to say it's OK so they can justify their actions with that.

I simply refuse to do it.  Anybody with a teeny tiny piece of a brain left KNOWS that we have all been taught, all our lives, alcohol will rot your liver. Having hepc and liver damage on top of that.........it's just looking for an excuse.

I won't EVER advise something sure it's fine, no problem.

If we can't tell the God's honest TRUTH to someone then we are of no use or help to them.  Telling them what they 'want' to hear just appeases someone.

It doesn't help them.

[nygirl7]

PS It would be hard to slam you Forseegood for just stating the obvious plain facts but in this politcally correct crazy world...........it wouldn't surprise me.

Still I want you to know I admire the way you can state the truth, even with fear of being putdown for it - but knowing that the truth is the more important thing.

You've got my vote.  For what I don't know but...you've got it still :)

[sunspot]

In the lingua franca of the internet forums,   +1

[GoofyDad]

Your points are all good ones, and you made some of which I was unaware. Still, I still feel there's is a certain condemnation that takes place here when discussion turns to alcohol that doesn't occur for other unhealthy behaviors. I can't put my finger directly on it, but I think it goes beyond that alcohol is more stressful on members' health than another vices. If you were able to tabulate the number of 'health units' that are compromised on this board by alcohol consumption, vs. the number that are compromised by other unhealth activities/lifestyles of the membership - I'm betting that the other top-two would outweight alcohol by a good measure.

Take me for ex. I've been slow to get out and exercise since tx and that is undoubtedly hampering my recovery. Poor lifestyle choice on my part. If this board had the bias against sedenrary lifestyles that it has against alcohol, maybe I would have been positively influenced by that collective mentality. But I'm here to tell you the rank and file are going to get their panties in knots and jump on this post with "Sitting on your fat-@ss is like pouring gasoline on a fire", or "Every missed bike ride is like playing playing Russian Roulette with your liver", or "Buy a Stairmaster and start a 12 step program today"!

I'm not riled up about this in the least. I just find it to be an interesting group dynamic.

Take care and be well.          

[Forseegood]

everyone took note that I was talking about "DRINKING ALCOHOLICALLY"....course, everyone is entitled to post whatever they want....but God knows why....whenever this subject comes around as is argued...

People will come on and say "What's all the fuss? Why be Carrie Nation or some other *prohibitionist* (which is vaguely insulting but I got a sense of humor) "I just drink a few drinks a week" etc...ect...hello!!! Jim I really value your opinions on many other subjects, but youre NOT talking about alcoholic drinking in your case, are you? Have I ever called you an alcohlic? I know I haven't....

Sooooo, we're talking apples and oranges here aren't we? UNRELATED ISSUES...Why call me Carrie Nation if, even you....I should think....would admit that drinking alcoholically is killing many people with this disease.... As for your contention that it's okay to drink a few drinks a week even *while* you have the disease, and you'd consistently quote Dr. Dietrich (the renoun hepatologist) saying is much?....well, he either changed his mind, or whatever, cause on his recent video he just said, "no alcohol with hepatitis"...plain and simple...

My points to Goofy were that while smoking and being overweight is certainly not condusive to clearing the virus, and are bad things in and of themselves...they are not hampering SVR AS MUCH as alcohol....inasmuch you can still TAKE treatment and ultimately SVR if you smoke and/or are overweight...

On the othe hand, drinking alcoholically STOPS many people with this disease from even treating - cause they don't want to have to give up alcohol in order to treat - DRINKING ALCOHOLICS THAT IS, ergo, many alcoholics are killing themselves who have this disease....Because many would agree....that "over-drinking" alcohol speeds up the disease process, often times dramatically...if you don't believe me, ask your respective hepatologists...I do think people killing themselves is rather dramatic and warrants being talked about in relation to these issues, as controversial as it seems to be...shoot me...for the most part lately, I avoid this issue like the plague, cause the same sillyness often comes up when youre trying to have a legitimate discussion of it...

For as much as some people complain that they are constantly being mis-read here because people don't bother to read the fine points of a person's post, yeeesh!..

respectfully to all, not mad at anyone, I think Jim makes a great contribution to this board, he's much more valuable to this board then I am and I don't think it's necessary to get mad at people I'm only typing to, hope everyone has a great weekend! I'm going to go soak my head, HA HA HA!

[pigeonca]

At the ripe old age of 63, I'm now at the point where a number of my peers have died from major illnesses.  One was an alcoholic, one abused everything, and the remainder were significantly overweight and thus, because they were too fat to do much, significantly sedentary as well.

But - although I may be condemning people who eat too much along with those who drink too much - there's a big difference between overweight and obese, alcoholic and temperate (but not abstinent).  I have never seen statistics indicating that people who are "pleasantly plump" face a shortened lifespan, just as I've never seen statistics showing any danger to the health of moderate drinkers.  Scientists seem to only study extremes - like the recent marijuana study where the subjects smoked an average of 75 joints a month.  Give me a break!  What does this mean to a person who smokes 5 or 10 joints a month?  Studies of alcoholics who drink 10 drinks a day don't tell us anything about people who drink 10 drinks a month.  I wish they'd do studies of moderate indulgences and let us know what is really dangerous to the average person.

[lab-rat]

Harry - I agree with you.  I perused a few of those posts yesterday and I was disgusted at how some people slammed the original poster (kimberlynn I think?).  I thought that maybe I was missing something, because I don't sit here all day and scrutinize every post.  She stated that she does NOT have hepc but she imbibes in alcohol...  BFD?  Her husband apparently does have hepc and hasn't stopped drinking yet - so I guess that's more the issue.  But some people called her an alcoholic and acted like she was on death's door...and I have no idea where that came from.  I have hep c, and my husband drinks...so what's the problem with that?  Can someone fill me in?

[mikesimon]

I actually believe that an occasional glass of wine is good for my liver and my vet feels the same way. He didn't think, however, that it was good for my cat and my cat's liver is pristine - go figure. Maybe I should speak to a hepatologist and get this question resolved because my cat really likes a drink now and then and I hate to deprive him if it's not absolutely necessary. Mike

[Forseegood]

yeah, I agree with Bug, maybe those posts sounded harsh because of how scarry this is and it's unsettling, so people just react...and yeah, the poster did admit she had a problem with drinking, that it was hard for her to forgo drinking because of her husband...I would think, and this is not my case, that if my partner was struggling with alcoholism, and was facing hep c, that I would give it up for myself and his sake as well, or at least try...but that's just me...

I mean, if we're going to be honest about how we feel, it might sound judgmental sometimes, but we're just saying how we feel about a situation, that doesn't mean they have to take it to the bank....members can do whatever they want with the advice, info, they get here....listen to it, not listen to it, we're only posting on a board....we know only little bits of what's going on with people that post here...

In the long run, we're all free to do what we want...and after all, people come on here talking about these problems, and asking other takes, and sometimes the advice ins't as nicely put as they would want)...but like Bug said once, we can ask advice, but we don't always want to hear it...especially if it means we have to make big changes...

I understand that your work mate is way over-compensating for her own addiction problems, why doesn't someone there tell her to mind her own business? ha ha! If I was there I would, but then I'm a big mouth anyway, if you haven't noticed, :)

[lab-rat]

cause youre not an alcoholic?
______________________________
Neither is my husband... but I still don't understand why kimberlynn was attacked like she was.  I agree with your statement "the nice thing to do is give up drinking yourself, at least if youre in his (the alcoholic) company"  - but she can't make him quit.  

[pigeonca]

It all depends on what the person who's giving up their vice wants you to do.  For some reason, when I quit smoking it didn't bother me to see others smoke.  My brother has a drinking problem but is not tempted when his wife has a glass of vino with dinner.  When I'm dieting, OTOH, I have a great deal of trouble watching somebody eat a piece of chocolate cake.  Go figure...  But when in doubt leave it out.  

I used to go to Smokers Anonymous meetings in a church that hosted all sorts of 12-step programs.  When the SA people were taking their break, gathering 'round the coffee pot, the AA people were taking their break, smoking.

[Teufelhunden]

Boy, is it to late to apologize? Lighten up folks. I'm sorry if my remark offended kimberlynn and I hope she understands my intentions. If anyone wants to drink I don't have a problem with it. If you want to eat in excess, knock yourself out. If you want to smoke pot, do cocaine, inhale cigarettes, jump out of airplanes, hit yourself in the head with a hammer, go for it. I guess there's consequences to everything we do in life. For me, realizing that HCV and drinking was not a good mix made me decide between life and death. Literally. When all I've read about Hepatitus (hepatitis) C and the words "potentially fatal" keeps jumping out at me, thats probably enough for me to change my rose colored glasses and see my life in the real light. I can look back with hindsight and learn from my mistakes. The sad thing is, once you're gone, what good is hindsight? Again, let me offer my apology to kimberlynn.

[mikesimon]

Yeah Jim, I agree with you 100% but do you have an answer to my problem with my cat? Mike

[jmjm530]

Forsee: As for your contention that it's okay to drink a few drinks a week even *while* you have the disease, and you'd consistently quote Dr. (D.)(the renoun hepatologist) saying is much?....well, he either changed his mind, or whatever, cause on his recent video he just said, "no alcohol with hepatitis"...plain and simple...
------------------------------------------------
I went back and watched the video after reading your post yesterday, and the above is a distortion of what D.  said and the video. First he never said those words, and what he did say was in the context of liver toxins in general including high fructose corn syrup and it's role in obesity and fatty liver of which he devoted twenty times more time than on alcohol.

So what does Dr. D. actually say regarding alcohol? From his website, in the case of this SVR, he says that 1-2 glasses of wine per day are OK. That's not me, it's Dr. D., and you are the one who invoked his name in this thread. As to drinking prior to SVR (but not on treatment), I never invoked his name in that context but merely said that I was allowed an *occasional* drink by the two hepatologists I saw, but never on treatment. Here's the thread --

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Hepatitis/Archive/HepCtreat/Q154253.html

[willows]

Please let me know the outcome of your cat and the drinking issue.  My dog is still angry that I got rid of all the microbrews and is fairly difficult to live with.  He still smokes, but I make him do it outside......what I can't see can't make me mad.

Willow

[jmjm530]

First, I'm not a Veternarian, nor are there any Veternarians here, simply some animal owner who have a non-profesional relationship and knowledge of their felines.  That said, my understanding is that it's OK for a cat to have a nip, in fact, cat's have been having catnip's for hundreds of years. Hope this helps.

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

And here is where Dr. D. says that an "occasional" drink with HCV is OK even before you are SVR. This is entirely consistent with what my doctors told me and what I have posted: http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Hepatitis/Current/Q161467.html

[FlGuy]

If you by a Stairmaster and do only a 12-step program, you ain't workin hard enough.

[Forseegood]

You gave me a little bit of a zinger, now I'll give you one, you should do press for the white house with all that tapdancing...

All I remember from that video (regarding THIS issue) is that the Dr. says "no alcohol and hep c" plain as day.... as for all the other permutations, I'll leave that to you...we can all find six ways to say a thing, but the thing remains true, nonetheless...I said he might of changed his mind from before, which only illustrates my point further...

The last thing I want to do is to dredge up that old dead cat from the backyard....since we're on cats all of a sudden, and debate you on the merits of drinking *while* you have this disease, we can politely agree to disagree on that one...I say not wise...

Since you so deftly skirted the issue, my original bone to pick with you is that I was speaking about ALCOHOLIC drinking with hep c....and as predictable as not, you come on to call me an abolitionist, etc etc...because you and a few others seem to get triggered into thinking that I'm talking about CASUAL drinking, when I'm PLAINLY NOT, whole different kettle of fish...

I could use all the capital letters, quotation marks, or a BLACK SHARPIE MARKER on my post, and still, sure as shootin, this will happen...who knows why? but it does...sometimes trying to get facts straight on this board is like trying to herd cats...impossible...

Well, I'm beginning to reach Depth Con 5, in terms of boredom with this subject, once again...so I'll bid you adieu, and hope that you and everyone reading this through their yawns all have a nice weekend!!!! It's beautiful outside!

[Forseegood]

and I plainly said I wasn't speaking about drinking AFTER svr...so take off those tapdancing shoes, will ya?

[jmjm530]

Forsee: so I'll bid you adieu,
-------------
Hopefully, you read the two Dr. D. Q&A's before your adieu that support my opinion, even though you brought up his name this time. I'm not the one here that's dancing the tap :)

As to your statement, "because you and a few others seem to get triggered into thinking that I'm talking about CASUAL drinking, when I'm PLAINLY NOT, whole different kettle of fish..." -- if so, then why have you inferred in the past that both myself and my doctor are alcoholics because I said they were OK with casual, social drinking after SVR and very occasional drinking prior to SVR but not on treament?

I NEVER once said heavy drinking was OK, so why the previous attacks from you or am I missing something???

BTW I intentionally avoided all the alcohol threads this week and hopefully will do so in the future. The reason I commented in this thread was because "Hepper's" was asking a thought provoking question why all the emotion with this topic.

Have a nice weekend.

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

Forsee: and I plainly said I wasn't speaking about drinking AFTER svr...so take off those tapdancing shoes, will ya?
-------------------------------------
If I could tapdance as well as you are in this thread, I'd win "So You Think You Can Dance." You conveniently separate your remarks between heavy and social drinking when it suits your argument. BTW I supplied you with TWO quotes from Dr. D. -- one with SVR and one BEFORE. You conveniently ignored the latter :)

-- Jim

[pigeonca]

My late pet, Pigeon the Parakeet, who I've named myself after as my handle, never had an alcohol problem.  He didn't like beer or hard liquor at all - indulged in wine occasionally, but only white wine because reds left stains on his face.  When he drank he got the hiccups (this is really the truth).  I didn't encourage his drinking, but sometimes he'd perch on the edge of a glass when nobody was looking and take a dunk.  Actually it was very cute.

[Forseegood]

help......read this thread again...I am not talking about any other thread in the past, in 1956, nada, this thread...read it again... I was talking, in this thread, about ALCOHOLIC DRINKING, if you think I've inferred this about you in the past, how does that apply TO THIS THREAD...and the FACTS AND QUESTIONS on THIS THREAD...can I never say, on any other thread again, that alcoholic drinking is bad for people with hep c, because once sometime ago, YOU think that I inferred you had a drinking problem? So now it's verboten for me to state that alcoholic drinking with hep c can be deadly? what's up with that? That's your problem and your trigger, no one was talking about your problems, whether they exist or not...why can't your comments pertain to this thread, THIS one...? sheeesh! Principles over personalities okay? Debate works better that way...Be well and prosper!

[jmjm530]

Forsee: why can't your comments pertain to this thread, T
----------------
My understanding is that the topic of "this thread" is "Hepper's" reaction to all the alcohol threads this week. That was what my "Carrie Nation" comment was about.

THEN you got offended, mentioned my name, and inferred that my PREVIOUS (as in not in this thread :)) posts about Dr. D. were contradicted in a video. That took things outside the thread and back to our PREVIOUS discussions. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think so. Well, have a good weekend -- and to paraphrase "Cuteus" -- no one is going to convince anyone about anything on this topic, not to mention listening to what the other person is actually saying.

Be well,

-- Jim

[Forseegood]

Jim: I NEVER once said heavy drinking was OK, so why the previous attacks from you or am I missing something???

Am I nutz? or do you not get the disconnect here? yes, you are missing something...I never said that you said that heavy drinking was okay? Find where i said that?

My topic was, and here it goes again for the last time...is that I was strictly speaking about A L C O H O L I C drinking, I turned myself into a pretzel stating that I was making a DISTINCTION between alcohoic drinking and casual drinking...and that all people who drink ARE NOT alcoholics...

don't know how many times I stated that, but I did...that's how all this madness began....then you come on and call me an abolitionist, out of the blue, apparently because of past triggers YOU have...and we're off to the races...FOR ME, AND THE GOOD OF ALL MANKIND, I AM OUTTA HERE...anybody is free to decide for themselves who said what, or Bob's Your Uncle, or Pappa Du Mau Mau, or Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, or whatever, ha ha!

[hepper38]

I don

[Forseegood]

just wanted to say what a nice way to end this crazy thread, and of course I was instrumental in it's craziness, but it keeps things lively around here huh? ha ha! Anyway, want to wish you the best of luck, looks like youre an SVR and all your hard work has paid off for you..and the best of luck with your new healthy life!!! don't beat yourself up if you take a few steps back, it's always trying to go forward that counts, be well!

[GoofyDad]

Unlesss you have a thing for cats with stubby tails - I'd caution against too much booze for the kitty. Well at least that was my experience back in the day - whenever I wanted to get a little tail, it always started out with imbibng copius quantities of the drink...... worked once in a while too but in addition to a little tail, I'd sometimes end up with a stump where my arm once was.

-- Cayote Catcher

F & J -

My apologies for dragging this thread down that well worn road. I should have knowd better. Have a nice weekend all......

[Forseegood]

everyone's entitled to their own opinions, t'aint nobody's fault...as for who believes what, when and where - people can decide on their own, like always...no harm done...now for this 18 year old that I take care of, who I just found sneaking out with my cell phone cause she's maxed out her minutes on her own cell phone, Oy Vey!!!

[orphanedhawk]

               I shudder at 'shoulds'.   I wish  people would get thier noses out of other people's business!!
  I forget who wrote it but I know at least Fats Waller was one of many who sang it.   "aint' nobodys business if I do."  

[Forseegood]

I basically agree with you, but people come on here asking about these issues...and this is a discussion board...that being said, I'm a big Fats Waller fan...

[jmjm530]

Forsee: Have I ever called you an alcohlic? I know I haven't....
-------------------------------------
I was trying to be nice and indirect, but "yes", you have inferred it quite directly on at least one occasion, here and I believe at Janis in that epic alcohol thread where you also intimated -- after I posted that my doctor told me it was OK to drink -- that my doctor was probably an alcoholic. I'm sure you remember that thread, including your thoughts about how common alcholism (alcoholism) is in the medical profession, etc, and how that no doubt influences their thoughts.

And here lies the problem. No one has ever, ever, ever ever, condoned heavy or alchoholic type drinking whether on treatment, before, treatment, after treatment or any time, with or without HCV.

So the answer to the Goofy one's question as to why this is such an emotional topic here is because drinking is often being discussed as it relates to the alchoholic and/or heavy drinker as opposed to the merits. Again, I think everyone believes heavy/alcholic drinking is plain bad, anytime, but that isn't what I or some others are talking about. We're talking about light, very social drinking and yet have been attacked,  often with the reference that we're alchoholics because we keep posting our opinions as others do who have different opinions. And that what the "Carrie Nation" post was all about. Sorry you got insulted, but how do you think I feel when people imply that both my doc and myself are alcholics because of our opinions?

-- Jim

[mikesimon]

Thank you both so much for your help - and Kitty Mouse thanks you too. I feel very fortunate because, aside from the sound advice, I also found true humor in your responses. Wisdom, comedy and tap dancing all in one thread. It's more than a man ... or woman could ask for. Well, I wouldn't mind a little soft-shoe if either of you can manage it - and it might be less offensive to some because, after all, it is a lot quieter. Thanks again, Mike

[GoofyDad]

Wisdom, comedy and tap dancing all in one thread.... and a little tail!

Poo would be the one topic conspicuous by its absence....though maybe my being ful of it counts for something...take care y'all....

[mikesimon]

How could I have neglected to mention tail? My apologies as well as my gratitude. Be well, Mike

[jmjm530]

Just to show I live by my words, washed down some Tandoori Chicken last night with a cold one (that's ONE in like "moderation" :) ) . BTW alcohol affects me less (actually not at all) since treatment, and my doc says probably because my liver metabolizes it better -- but the Tandoori Chicken was another story.

While my GERD (reflux) is like 90% better (no PPI's thank you sir), this is the second time I woke up at night with hearburn after an Indian meal. Can only imagine if I ordered my favorite hot Chicken Curry. Looks like Indian Food Reflux is another documented post tx sympton, but I think I can live with that. What I'm not so sure I can live with is if Goofy sees this post and examines the gastro end of Indian food. Because while this thread started with what goes down the hatch, from the last post it looks like Goofy is going to take the thread all the way out the other end.

-- Jim