Lloyd Wright (spellcheck)

oops spellcheck..left glasses downstairs...I meant
Lloyd Wright

[Forseegood]

don't know if he is the best guy to talk about on this forum...I do think his site is "interesting" but his claims are certainly "overblown." To me at least. Have a feeling if anyone posts about him at all here, this will be the nicest post...hope youre well...

[nygirl7]

She is correct - I had to tape my mouth shut not to say what I wanted to.

[lorijean]

He has been a huge help to me--my liver enzymes were in the 250's and after following Lloyd's advice for 4 months, they are now ALT: 48, AST: 38. Personally, I think he offers sound advice.  Lori

[jmjm530]

I would not take anything on that site at face value without confirming with other sources. The biggest danger with sites like this is that they can discourage those with signficant liver damage from being properly diagnosed (i.e. having a liver biopsy) and treating if necessary.

[mremeet]

He's a liar and a scam artist. Cow glands will not cure you. NEXT!

[jmjm530]

Mre: "Cow glands will not cure you"
-------------------------------------------------
True, but they could make you feel a lot better.

http://www.geocities.com/lollophotos/gina135.html

[pitter]

thanks for the input, and so many months later. I honestly do not think that  anyone would go to the lengths he does ..for a scam.
what exactly did you do, if you don't mind?
jmjm, I understand what you said. Me personnally , I have had the biopsy...and I surely respect everything that you have to say.
and I certainly do not look forward to the SIDES of treatment,... so I will keep my mind open to everything ,and will make an informed opinion....in time.
mremeet, not opening that with you right now. I don't believe in all black and white.
thank you ...love Pitter

[jmjm530]

Without remembering your stats -- in general,  not saying that treatment is the only option open to you or anyone with HCV. In fact, someone just posted over on the other side, some alternatives with botanicals: http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/373346
Just saying that LLoyd Wright seems to make some exaggerated claims that should be investigated independently of what's on his website.

-- Jim

[mremeet]

Ok, well let us know how the glands work out for you. In fact, maybe "lorijean" can contribute more and explain how she's been helped by wright's glands? Y'know, provide a detailed synopsis of her "treatment." That would be interesting to hear about, I mean everyone with HCV is always looking to learn more about promising treatments. And it's especially serendipitous that lorijean joins the conversation just now, I searched her name and apparently this is her first time posting. What luck for all of us that she just happened along when she did. Lorijean?

[pitter]

Hi ,53, damage 0-1 geno1. vrld, 3.6 mill.I am not saying that I BELIEVE in Lloyd Wright..But there may be some thing to what he believes.  I have so far done nothing except a feeble attempt at taking a few mlik thistle pills. I am waiting to be seen by a diff. hepatologist...that has a long waiting list. Got the biopsy 3 mos.ago. I am terrified of the sides. Don't think I can take it.
Mremeet, you are snarly!  ...you stress me out a bit.
But I do guess you do get your point across.
Pitter

[jmjm530]

Glad you're getting another opinion -- no such thing as too much information IMO.
Short of waving a wand and making the virus go away, it should be gratifying you have so little liver damage. Hopefully this will buy you all the time you need to make informed choices on how to proceed -- and don't look at the Milk Thistle as "feeble". Remember, the old Hypocratic Oath -- "Above all, due no harm". Presently, you have no damage. Use that as a guage on how you proceed.

All the best,

--Jim

[pitter]

Thanks Jim.
you have spoken to me a few times and I appreciate it... I remember what you said you went thru w tx ... it is soo all over the board on this site , about whether to treat or when...I allready have mild depression and anxiety, insomnia (pretty bad all the time), and alot of meds make me vomit... so I am really dragging my feet about doing anything about it... I have had a biopsy, and have seen a gastro doc.   And I did call the hepatologist ,
Dr.Wu  at UConn. Medical  Center, Farmington, CT.   Any one familiar with him?? I would appreciate any feedback on him.
I am waiting for a call back for appt.
do you know, does the amt. of damage tell anything about how long we may have had the disease?
hope you are well..thanks
Pitter

[jmjm530]

Very hard to figure out how long you've had the virus based on liver damage alone.

I am more familiar with hepatologists in the Boston and New York areas, and would be happy to give you some names there. As far as Dr. Wu is concerned, do you have a first name and/or address?

-- Jim

[FlGuy]

Think it's George Wu. div gastro/hepatology, UCONN

[jmjm530]

I did see a "George Wu" at UCONN but it doesn't appear he's a hepatologist? Did you find a bio on him? I do think it's important to see a hepatologist at this point.

[Forseegood]

I think what is going on here is that some of these substances *can* help you feel better (from where I sit, it looks like it depends on the patient AND the substances, just like the results of treatment can be all over the place, these results can be are all over the place too)....super anti-oxidants, etc, what have you...

Maybe even help you with inflammation issues in the blood, and those of us who have this disease have low level inflammation issues due to an ongoing infection, that much we do know. Just recently, I stopped my supplementation regime, which I always do after so much time, to just clean everything out, etc....anyway, I stopped for about 3 weeks...I was so caught up in all my stuff I do, holiday things, work, etc...that I kinda forgot to start up again. So, one day I thought, I should start this up again, pain in the butt that it is sometimes. I'm so fuzzy sometimes that I really kind of forgot that I had started up again, lol...just forgetting all over the place lately...

Well, a few days later I just felt better, a little more energy, more "myself." Thought, wow, I feel better, maybe it's the cooler weather. Then it occurred to me that I started up my regimen again, and that's maybe why. So this new understanding wasn't on any conscious level at first, because as I said, I forgot that I started up for awhile.

This dang regimen does make me feel better....and i have seen, in the past, it lower my alts. If people want to think I'm all wet, and it's all in my head, that's okay, we're all entitled to our own opinions. But I am going to keep swallowing these things in my own best interests, as I see them.

My problem with the Lloyd Wrights of this world (and, admittedly, I am no expert on him, just perused his website once or twice) is that they are throwing all these so called "facts" out there, which are largely anecdotal and unsubstantiated. And some of these statements, to me, seem overblown.....even *inferring* that these substances can "cure", if I'm not mistaken.

I feel more comfortable with some of the products I use, who are just out there (for profit of course, they gotta pay their rent and overhead just like everybody else) but don't make all these overblown claims. Still not discounting the fact that Lloyd Wrights whatever might work on some level, I don't know...but I'm just leery of marketing schemes, and overblown statements.

[Forseegood]

I think what is going on here is that some of these substances *can* help you feel better (from where I sit, it looks like it depends on the patient AND the substances, just like the results of treatment can be all over the place, these results can be are all over the place too)....super anti-oxidants, etc, what have you...

Maybe even help you with inflammation issues in the blood, and those of us who have this disease have low level inflammation issues due to an ongoing infection, that much we do know. Just recently, I stopped my supplementation regime, which I always do after so much time, to just clean everything out, etc....anyway, I stopped for about 3 weeks...I was so caught up in all my stuff I do, holiday things, work, etc...that I kinda forgot to start up again. So, one day I thought, I should start this up again, pain in the butt that it is sometimes. I'm so fuzzy sometimes that I really kind of forgot that I had started up again, lol...just forgetting all over the place lately...

Well, a few days later I just felt better, a little more energy, more "myself." Thought, wow, I feel better, maybe it's the cooler weather. Then it occurred to me that I started up my regimen again, and that's maybe why. So this new understanding wasn't on any conscious level at first, because as I said, I forgot that I started up for awhile.

This dang regimen does make me feel better....and i have seen, in the past, it lower my alts. If people want to think I'm all wet, and it's all in my head, that's okay, we're all entitled to our own opinions. But I am going to keep swallowing these things in my own best interests, as I see them.

My problem with the Lloyd Wrights of this world (and, admittedly, I am no expert on him, just perused his website once or twice) is that they are throwing all these so called "facts" out there, which are largely anecdotal and unsubstantiated. And some of these statements, to me, seem overblown.....even *inferring* that these substances can "cure", if I'm not mistaken.

I feel more comfortable with some of the products I use, who are just out there (for profit of course, they gotta pay their rent and overhead just like everybody else) but don't make all these overblown claims. Still not discounting the fact that Lloyd Wrights whatever might work on some level, I don't know...but I'm just leery of marketing schemes, and overblown statements.

[FlGuy]

Didn't do a lot of looking, just this far:

http://www.uchc.edu/md/Gastro/index.htm

[FlGuy]

I don't know if it's the same Wu in Pitters reference. Just a guess on my part.

[alagirl]

I am terrified of the sides. Don't think I can take it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Friday when I was checked into the ER, our nurse was a beautiful girl about my son's age who asked a lot of questions about my tx.  Her father, it turns out, had been infected twenty years ago and had gone through three or so earlier unproductive treatments, not the current offerings.  I invited her to our med board and she teared up and looked away.  Her father had some sort of encephalic hep incident or something after having a tip installed? - I know that doesn't make much sense, try to keep in mind that not much oxygen was getting to my brain courtesy of no rbc's on Friday - and he  had died quite recently.  

The sides don't really scare me.  Losing my liver does.  Renal issues from hep c scare me, issues with my brain from hep c scares me.

[Forseegood]

forgot to say in my post...and it's probably important and I always try to, that I don't advocate these things "instead" of treatment...if all goes well, be starting at the first of the year. But there are a lot of people out there who have multiple failings at conventional treatment, and they might take a look at things that might make you feel better as we're all waiting for the better drugs to become widely available.

[pitter]

Thanks everybody for your input,  I will look farther into WU...(he he )..I asked the people who answered the phones at Uconn if he was in fact a Hepatologist, they said yes...but that he was very busy and his practitioners would be as helpful..I said "no I will wait , I want to see an actual hepatologist" they took my name and said they would call me to schedule an appt. cuz he is booking so far out.That was a week ago , haven't heard anything from them yet...I just did a search on line for a Hepatologist near Middletown Ct. which is where I live.
well as faras the supplements go ...I don't know what to take ,I have milk thistle, I take b 12 someyimes for energy...
Got any  suggestions , it has to be simple for me to stay with it...
alagirl, what is a "tip installed"? and what is renal issues? and what brain issues are you talking about? if you please? thanks
bless you all.
Pitter

[Willy50]

This is an older thread. I grimaced when it first came out.  There were actually about 5 of them and some of the responses were a little over the top.  I feel that sometimes people get a little too proacative in refuting any alternative treatment or therapy.  I have bought product from Lloyd Wright, visited his site many times, read his books and see him as a useful source of information.  I don't see Lloyd as omnicient or a guru.  I don't think he is "wright" about everything that he writes about.  I don't think that anyone is able to always predict the best treatment for HCV.  Right now we have doctors who are telling their patients to wait till better treatments are developed and we have doctors who are treating one and all.  Who is right?

Lloyd provides a source of information that is decidedly anti-treatment.  I think some of his arguments have some validity.  I think some of his anti treatment arguments go too far but they still provide a needed balance to a billion dollar industry which sells treatments to all levels of liver damage.  It's OK that pharmaceuticals market their drugs.  It's also OK that Lloyd sells whatever people wish to buy from him.  Ultimately it is the buyer who must beware.  I also have to say....... it's OK for people to complain or argue against using alternatives.  (Is it OK to argue against TX? : ))That's what boards are for; free flow of information.  I don't think the information is aways true or accurate and so people also have to be careful about what they choose to believe.

I've bought Thymus several times from Lloyd.  I've bought Milk thistle from Lloyd.  My LFT's did drop some but I happen to believe that since there were many other factors involved it would not be safe to claim that it was due to taking the product.  I am aware of one person who claimed his viral load increased while on thymus.  I could not tell that it did anything for me in terms of how I felt.

Yes, of course the information which Lloyd provides is anectodal.  I believe that much of it still has some value.  This board is also very largely anectdotal information and it still serves a great need.  Should this board be discounted for the same reason?  Lloyd has been selling herbs, vitamins and such back when the SVR rate for geno 1's was probably in the teens.  For me it makes more sense to try to take care of oneself for a few more years until the SVR rate for us geno 1's becomes better than a 50-50 proposition.  Whether one buys anything from Lloyd I still think his site is an interesting read.  I may not always agree with him but I often find that the site provides living breathing and anectdotal accounts of what happens to (some) people who suffer some of the black box warnings which are prominently displayed on the containers in which TX dosing is supplied.  We understand things differently when we read the warnings than from when we read about (once again "anectdotal") accounts where people suffered serious sides from those drugs.

As the cure rate goes up with TX it may make progressively less sense to try alternatives.  It might have made a lot more sense do do alternatives back when the treatment success rate was quite low.  I assume I will treat some time in the next few years.  Until that day I will continue to read up on diet, vitamins and life style choices which could mitigate damage while I await a shorter and more effective treatment.  To me there is nothing wrong with reading and trying to understand both sides.  I am in no way recommending anyone take any particular drug, vitamin, or supplement.

I happen to agree with Foreseegood that there is a distinction between simply feeling better, or improving ones blood scores and the outright expectation of becoming "cured".  If one is able to aleviate some symptoms or improve ones LFT's might one consider some aspect of treating with alternatives and improvement?  

One final disclaimer; I "know" people (only 2) from online who claim to have cleared using alternatives.  I also am aware of another case in which one persons LFT's went sky high an alternatives.  1) research what you intend to do, 2) MONITOR your results.  Frankly....... I think that many people are not capable of doing either (I think I may include myself in that group.  ; ) )

TIP is a sort of bypass of the liver.  When a liver becomes so damaged that it stops filtering, it caused higs blood pressure.  This causes ascites and increases chances of bleeds.  The TIPS reroutes at least some of the blood, thus lowering the blood pressure.  Unfortunately it also means that the blood is less filtered.  This is a very basic description but I hope it suffices.  

The "brain issues" refered to are probably elevated ammonia which compromised livers have trouble removing from the blood.  A tips procedure bypasses the liver and so I would imagine that one might automatically have these issues. (and for which there are diet and RX {lactulose] solutions for them).

best,
Willy

[pitter]

thank you sooo much Willy...you made alot of sense...as much sense a s can be made with this uncontrollable illness...and I agree with you...in as much as I know my self...which at this point is not alot...there are alot of gray areas....but still everything has it's own place of importance...thank you for your time and knowledge and,
thank you for the explanations...I appreciate it alot.
Pitter

[pitter]

do you have any more wrods of wisdom on the brain problems? Is that a sx of hep w/out the Tips installation? In other words, do the brain issues come w/hepc?
thank you again.
pitter

[Willy50]

"brain issues" is pretty vague.  I don't know for sure what you are referring to.  I can think of several different types of issues but there may be more;

1)  (untreated) HCV related depression
2)  TX related depression (Hmmmmm; how do they differentiate this from HCV caused depresion?)  About 30% of people who treat suffer from depression
3)  Brain fog, chemo brain is often a reported symptom of TX
4)  Symptoms of the brain which pertain (usually) to high ammonia in the brain due to damaged liver.  This would generally be for stage 4's- cirrhotics.

I'm mentioning these distinct types of brain issues and believe that they are of organic (ya know, caused by bad chemicals) origion as opposed to being "depressed" because the job sucks or ya feel bad.

Regarding the too long post; it's just my viewpoint and others views are just as relevant.  This is just the way I like to organise my world.

best,
willy

[mremeet]

Why is it that after Lloyd Wright comes under fire for being a "liar and scam artist", there's an outpouring of ill defined and highly defensive sentiment from several people in support of alternative therapies in general?* That is, the condemnation of Wright has obviously been perceived to be near exactly tantamount to a broad and blanket condemnation of ALL alternative therapies. That doesn't make any sense at all. WHO above stated that ALL alternative therapies are "bad", or stupid, or useless? Certainly not me, and certainly no one else (on this thread anyway). Wright is not *the* spokesman for all alternative therapies folks. If someone criticizes Wright, that does NOT necessarily mean that the same person dismisses all alternative therapies (without them saying so), and it's absurdly fallacious to simplistically think or state otherwise. And there's a lot of scamming and pure bullsh!t out in the alternative therapy world folks (including Wright's "gland-scam"). These are some very basic facts, and they are irrefutable.

And Willy, since you've singled me out in your response, and obviously have such strong feelings on the matter of Lloyd's glands, why don't you answer the first asterixed* question above? And when I say answer that question, I mean REALLY answer that question. Answer it in a succinct and focused manner instead of some meandering, multi-paragraphical response chock full o' vague non-sensical red-herrings, straw men and non-sequiturs. And while you're at it, why don't you also explain how much you paid for Wright's glands and precisely why you're not taking them anymore? And since you're so knowledgeable and supportive of Lloyd Wright, why don't you go ahead and tell us which of his regimens you recommend? He has them all conveniently listed on his websites, so please tell me (and everyone) which one would be best for the average hep C patient who wants to steer clear of that satanically awful INTAFEWON!

[Willy50]

Perhaps you misunderstood me.

I singled no one out.  I don't know who used the label "liar and scam artist" nor did I address that.  IF it were used in one of the earlier threads I think that it might be indeed "over the top" as I addressed in the longer post.  I have written my share of "anti-snake oil" posts and so you are preaching to the choir.  You and I have both read the material and taken some alternatives.  That makes neither of us a spokesmen for the product nor experts on it.  Lloyd sells products that other sites sell (for instance liversupport), he sells products which I have seen other respected members either suggest (such as milk thistle, NAC, ALA, teas) without coming under attack.  He provides information on such products free of charge.  He has a lot of information on various topics and often when I read about a problem with current treatment I find that it is something that I may have read at Lloyds site 3-4 years ago.  
IF you have read at his site.... you know I am right.  ; )

If you are waiting for me to recommend a treatment, a regimen, a series of herbs....... you had best re-read my longer post.  There were several disclaimers placed in the post.  In fact there is a warning, or what I consider a warning.  I am not taking any alternatives right now.  If I were to...... they would probably be along the lines of what HR recommended in this forum.....oh...maybe a year ago.  I didn't write it down but I think I remember NAC, possibly ALA, probably what Liversupport calls Maximum Milk Thistle which Lloyd sells a comparable product (yes, at a lower price but who knows? Maybe it ain't the same).  : )

In conjunction with better diet I would specifically recommend cutting back on red meats, dairy products, processed foods and try to eat more raw, whole, organic and unprocessed foods.  I would try to limit my sweets, certain types of fats (omega-3's are fine), and I would (and I do) restrict the use of NSAIDS and use of alcohol and smokes.  I also recommend and do get plenty of excercise; I am about 5-10+ or so and weigh 155.  About a year or two ago I could run a 7 minute mile or a 23-4 minute 5K (not bad for a 52 year old hepper).  I may be lucky with decent genes, a wimpy quasi-species of genotype 1 but I have limited liver damage and am almost free of hepatic symptoms.  So much for my recommendations.  There is one more though..... I recommend trying to stay "cool" and try not to live in fear about having the virus.  I sometimes think that our response to having the virus is as important as what we do to treat it.  Unlike Elvis, I try to not get "all shook up".

Finally, you misrepresent me if you infer that I am anti-interferon.  Treatment offers our current and best hope for a cure.  I merely recommend that people thoughly research the treatment.  That is hardly radical.  If I have a message it would be to see if one could wait a few years till better treatments arrive.  If people want to treat now, that's their perogative. I try to help those who treat with whatever information that I can provide.  That might be getting dental work done in advance, getting their iron where it should be pre-TX, possibly getting eyes checked, scoped and finding the best DR/clinic.  I am not against TX.  I am for taking the action which will net the most effective and safest treatment for an infected brother or sister hepper.  I believe that you have those same intentions from reading your replies to many people here.

I don't "get" the hostility towards Lloyd Wright when there are so many other people who sell the same products as he.  I also don't understand challenging people to provide "proof".  Most newbies aren't capable, the data usually doesn't exist to prove and disprove it anyway.  For instance..... you'd think after so many years we'd have better data on Pegasys versus Pegintron after how many studies?  Each one is still "best".  : )  

Dunno if this is a good enough answer for you.   I probably warned some folks about argylia thru the use of collodial silver in 2004.  If you'd like I'll send you one (by PM) of my "ant-snake oil" responses about a different product) to prove we are not so far apart.  I think you'll get a chuckle out of it.

Sorry....borrowing your use of religious reference in your last sentance...... I just see Lloyd as an vendor and educator; not the antichrist.  : )  If anything, I respect people who take a stand against "Goliaths".  It's one reason that I enjoy reading Lloyd (even though I may not always agree with him) and it's one reason that I also respect you too.  : ) (even though.....yadda yadda yadda)

best,
Willy

[pitter]

you GO guy!!!!

[pitter]

I am holding back the rest!!!! ARGHHHRRRGHHH!

[mremeet]

Willy, again you really haven’t answered the simple questions I posed above. But that’s alright, I guess you just like to discuss at great length your feelings about certain things, and of course you’re certainly entitled to do that. I was just hoping to have a much more concise discussion regarding Wright’s glands and the legitimacy of his claims. But obviously that’s not going to happen (which always happens on Wright/gland threads), so I’ll just address a few of your thoughts below instead:

willyquote: “Perhaps you misunderstood me. I singled no one out.  I don't know who used the label "liar and scam artist" nor did I address that.”

Well not that I’m really interested in expanding the conversation into yet ANOTHER irrelevant tangential realm of “who you were talking about”, but sure seemed like you were talking about me. This thread started out with an innocuous request by pitter for info about Lloyd Wright. Initially a few people responded with completely milquetoast responses describing a vague skepticism of Wright, nothing more than that (i.e. certainly nothing “over the top” as you described). Then along came my boldly negative response with “He's a liar and a scam artist”, which was precisely the 5th response to pitter’s initial posting. You then very quizzically responded with “I don't know who used the label "liar and scam artist"…” You don’t? Well let me clear it up for you, I’m the one who called Wright a liar and scam artist as previously stated in the 5th response above. You also said “There were actually about 5 of them and some of the responses were a little over the top. I feel that sometimes people get a little too proacative (sp) in refuting any alternative treatment or therapy.”  So, who was being over the top or overly critical of wright and alternative treatment in this thread? Re-reading what everyone said, it couldn’t possibly have been 4c, jim, nygirl or the “ubiquitous” lorijean. Again, they only stated very mild skepticism that any rational person would not classify as “over the top” (and lorijean provided a strong endorsement). So who are we left with? Well shucks, it’s just ‘lil ole me ain’t it? So yeah, obviously you were referring to me. If you wish to say you weren’t, ok then who were you referring to?? Never mind, I really don’t care. But just wanted to point out this painfully obvious thing that for whatever reason you’ve chosen to play games on. In the future if you’ve got a problem with something I’ve said, then don’t be shy, just come out with it. Nuff said.

Willyquote: “IF it were used in one of the earlier threads I think that it might be indeed "over the top" as I addressed in the longer post.”

Oh, so calling Wright a liar and a scam artist is ok in certain threads (perhaps even this one), but it’s not ok in other threads. Some threads he’s ok, and others he’s a liar and scam artist. It really depends on the thread, not the person. Of course that’s absurd.

Willyquote:  “He provides information on such products free of charge.  He has a lot of information on various topics and often when I read about a problem with current treatment I find that it is something that I may have read at Lloyds site 3-4 years ago.”

So what if he provides information free of charge? There are thousands of hep C websites on the net that provide free information. And this doesn’t even get into the quality of his information, there’s lots of information out there and not all of it good. The quality of the information his site and books provide is very poor and very misleading. Plus his information is carefully tailored to lead a scared, vulnerable person who doesn’t know anything about hep C into believing that tx drugs are the worst things on earth and that his products and regimens are the greatest things on earth. It’s a classic push-pull sales tactic, a push-pull sales tactic that makes him money at the expense of sick, vulnerable people. And you mention that you read about a problem with treatment on Wright’s site 3-4 years prior to you reading it somewhere else later. I’ve been to Lloyd’s website and much of the negative information he provides about IFN based treatment is simply the systematically cherry-picked worst possible negative side effects experienced during the extensive clinical trials of IFN/riba. And this data was released by the pharmaceutical companies and through the research doctors who participated in the trials. You make it sound like Wright’s on the cutting edge and giving us information we can’t find anywhere else, or info that’s been hidden away or suppressed in a conspiratorial manner. That’s pure bullsh!t my friend. Read your product inserts for further enlightenment. And also, Wright goes to fantastic lengths to describe every conceivably possible negative side effect one can experience from IFN (NEVER discussing the obviously positive flipside), but in contrast offers nothing of any substance on the safety and efficacy for his glands. No real studies, no mention of side effects, no quantification of efficacy, just the vague anonymous anecdotal reports of people who supposedly have bought his products (who are in all likelihood fakes). And he’s been pimping this stuff for years and years now, why isn’t there more info released about its efficacy?  Take a wild guess why that is.

Willyquote: "IF you have read at his site.... you know I am right.  ; )"

No, I certainly do not know you’re right.

Willyquote: “If you are waiting for me to recommend a treatment, a regimen, a series of herbs....... you had best re-read my longer post.”

No, I’m not waiting for you to recommend a treatment, nor am I interested in “willy’s regimen.” We’re talking about Lloyd Wright and you have defended and partially endorsed wright’s teachings and products. So like I already asked, which of his regimens that he has listed on his site would you recommend? Although at this point no need to answer that, by not already answering the question and providing your own regimen instead, obviously it suggests that even you do not recommend Wright’s regimens.

willquote: “I merely recommend that people thoughly(sp) research the treatment.  That is hardly radical.”

That’s a really good idea, and no it’s not radical at all. People should research treatment. I have, and have been doing so for ten years now. I bought Lloyd’s book as a part of that quest for knowledge (several years ago). I’ve looked into what he had to say, I’ve examined his website, I’ve listened to audio clips of him and I’ve come to the conclusion that he’s a liar and a scam artist. The fact that he is a liar and scam artist is obvious to any thinking person who goes through the tedium and trouble of looking into his book, his websites, his treatment and conventional tx. If you’re not one of those people, sorry about your luck.

Willyquote: “I don't "get" the hostility towards Lloyd Wright when there are so many other people who sell the same products as he.”

Simply selling products associated with alternative treatments (herbs and supplements) does not in itself make someone a scammer or a liar, not at all. But when you view the entire schtick within its full context, wright is doing much more than simply selling alternative treatment regimens. Wright is an educator (as you yourself previously described), and he attempts to educate people who don’t know anything about hep C. His teachings are promulgated both through his books and through his websites. His teachings revolve around the following precepts (cont below):

[mremeet]

(1) Convincing all hep C patients that interferon based treatments are horrible. They don’t work, they’ll cause permanent damage in nearly every instance, nearly everyone will suffer the most horrible side effects imaginable. He puts an incredibly negatively and unfairly biased spin against interferon, and never ever acknowledges any positive flipside (um, like it’s ability to cure HCV).

(2) There’s a better way through alternative therapies, and Wright has THE alternative therapies that are needed to CURE. Yes, CURE. Wright knows how to CURE people with HCV; if you’ll just accept what he says and purchase his products, you can be cured. However, enrolling in ongoing “maintenance dosing” of his expensive regimens are required to achieve and maintain your “cure.” (which requires a large ongoing monthly cash output)

(3) Wright’s various regimens involve the usual supplemental smatterings of milk thistle, dandelion root, lipoic acid, reishi mushrooms etc etc (i.e. various regimens based on these same themes you can find anywhere in a zillion other websites and books). He has no exclusivity on those ordinary herbs/supplements. But the REAL capstone of what you need to take in order to be cured, is cow thymus (orally administered). Cow thymus (he calls “natcell”) is touted as being the ultimate HCV killer. The specialization in natcell, and somewhat exclusive distributorship Wright has in natcell, is what distinguishes him from other HCV alternative treatment gurus/websites. And since the natcell is the real hinge-pin of being cured, you’ll need to procure that if you wish to reach HCV-negative nirvana. And of course his cow glands are *very* expensive.

So seeing what Wright’s contextual schtick is above and realizing that there are millions of HCV+ people out there, many of which were recently diagnosed, and you see the foundation for fraud and how people can easily be misled and even harmed by his efforts. Who knows how many people who have (or had) severe liver disease, including cirrhosis, and bought into his schtick. And deliberately forewent conventional treatment over a prolonged period of time (even if they had highly curable geno 2 etc) based on what Wright said. Possibly even concluding in the death of some of these people as a consequence of ESLD and/or HCC. And how many people have been scared out of conventional treatment and lured into his treatment only to see their livers progress from F2 into F3 or F3 into cirrhosis? And how many people out there with HCV and with little disposable income have sent thousands of their hard earned $$$ to Wright in hopes that his glands work for them, only later to find out it’s a fraud? So does any or all of this constitute justification for calling Wright a liar and a scam artist? You bet it does! Wright’s living large in Malibu based on what he sucks out of these unfortunate people. He’s a scammer alright, make no bones about it.

Willyquote: “I also don't understand challenging people to provide "proof".  Most newbies aren't capable, the data usually doesn't exist to prove and disprove it anyway.”

You don’t understand asking for proof eh? You’re right, why should we ask for proof willy?? This is obviously a completely absurd statement. Also, there’s no reason newbies (or anyone else) can’t offer proof. That is, if Wright provided them some - which of course he never will.

Willquote: “For instance..... you'd think after so many years we'd have better data on Pegasys versus Pegintron after how many studies?  Each one is still "best".  : )”

Maybe you missed it willy, but there’s a huge body of evidence accumulated over years and years and years for all of the various IFN based treatments. The evidence is clear in demonstrating that IFN based treatments work. They may not work for everyone, and yes they certainly come with a lot of baggage, but for at least half they do. In contrast what substantive evidence does Wright provide that his glands work and are even safe for that matter? Nada, zilch. And he’s had years and years to do so: the evidence is ultra-conspicuous in its patent absence.

Willyquote: “Dunno if this is a good enough answer for you.   I probably warned some folks about argylia thru the use of collodial silver in 2004.”

Yeah that’s what’s confusing. You yourself bought Lloyd’s glands, took his glands, and by your own admission acknowledge they didn’t work. And you even describe another person who they says didn’t work for too. And yet instead of realizing, “hey, these glands were expensive and they didn’t work, maybe Wright’s a big fat liar?” you actually find yourself defending the guy. I’m at a loss, but I suppose some people think differently than I do (you obviously being one of them).

Willyquote: “I just see Lloyd as an vendor and educator; not the antichrist.  : )  If anything, I respect people who take a stand against "Goliaths".  It's one reason that I enjoy reading Lloyd…”

I see, so you like the fact that Wright offers up his own extremely biased disinformation program for the purposes of countering the big pharma spin machine? The means justify the ends, and if Wright scams a few folks to finance his disinformation machine in the meantime while poking a stick in the eye of big pharma, then so be it. Well, I couldn’t disagree more. I also don’t think that pharmaceutical companies are “Goliaths” (other than being large) and Wright is not David (other than being small). Goliath was a tyrannical giant that wished to harm the innocent, David was a smart and righteous boy who against all odds slain Goliath through his cunning and skill (with God’s help of course). This analogy doesn’t hold on any level, because pharmaceutical companies (i.e. Goliath) help SAVE lives, not take them (mine has been saved several times by pharmaceutical companies throughout my 40 some odd years, most recently through the efforts of Roche and Vertex). And Wright is certainly not righteous like David was, nor do I believe god is on his side (to the contrary in fact). Wright will never slay pharmaceutical companies with his glands either (primarily because they don’t work). So the analogy you pose above is absurd on all levels and is completely misplaced.

If I were you I’d rethink your personal experiences with Wright and your quasi-endorsement of him based on those experiences. You’re a decent guy willy, but backing Wright ain’t right.

[pitter]

I know I am just taking your bait for an argument... but if you are going to take such a stance against anyone  that does't fit YOUR thinking,,,,,, where are YOUR FACTS  (not opinions, which are like aHOLEs, everyone has them) against it ??? what is your basis for being so sure ? I think you have LOTS of research FOR  INTERFuRON...GOODY for you ...BUT ..Where is your basis and back up Against ANYTHING alternative ????  If ..and a BIG IF...what  have YOU studied on the OTHER side?       Why are you so hell bent on YOUR way of INTERFURON?  Cuz that's all you got?
You spout and spew...but where is the data to convince me??? except of course for your BIG scary wordage...come up with more than that dude. With alot less big WORDY ******** ...OKAY????
Make some sense for the regular person and then maybe I will actually be tempted to even listen to you.
Backin YOU ain't right either! You aren't showin nothin more either...!
Pitter

[Willy50]

"If I were you I’d rethink your personal experiences with Wright and your quasi-endorsement of him based on those experiences. You’re a decent guy willy, but backing Wright ain’t right. "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you are a more than decent guy too.   For both of our sakes I'd prefer to give it a rest since we may not be near convincing one another.  (actually, I think we may be closer to agreement than is obvious but we both like a good argument)  I think it's useful to go back and forth on the subject.  It brings up good points on both sides (or so I think).  

Right now I need to spend time doing other things as I'm sure you may too.  Never the less I appreciate your response.  I may PM you the "long form" response but think especially now that if we continue to talk about this I may do it off the board.

best,
Willy

[CockSparrow]

Sorry but I have to jump in and side with MysteryMeet. Everything Mystery stated about Lloyd Bl00dy Wright is 100% fact. The guy is an @rsehole and con artist. He uses FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) to sell his fake cures.

I’ll try not to make this as long as mysterys post but I could go on about this Pr1ck for ages.
Below are some extracts from HepCNoSolution web site

NatCell® Thymus and Thymus Gland Extract

The main block to the acceptance of the efficacy of oral thymus gland extracts is the erroneous yet widespread belief that all proteins and peptides taken orally, as food or supplements, are 100% digested to individual amino acids before absorption, from the intestine into the body.
If this were true, then indeed orally administered thymus gland peptide hormone extracts would be broken down completely during digestion, becoming merely very expensive, low dose amino acid supplements, with no more immune activity than (for example) a few hundred milligrams of ground beef protein.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is Zadaxin injected. Its Thymosin alpha a thymus extract.
Reason cause it don’t work if you eat it. This is not an erroneous belief ITS FACT it will be 100% digested. It’s a Protein, same as Interferon.
Save some money and buy a Big Mac its just as effective in curing/reducing side effects of HCV. Oral thymus extract cannot work even if placed under the tongue. You’ve been had, it’s a con.

Oh yeh the B@stard attempts to convince you that this that this isn’t the case with this piece of marketing brilliance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet it has been known since the 1970's that significant quantities of various proteins, such as gliadin from wheat, milk casein, Ferritin, hemoglobin and milk immunoglobins routinely survive digestion and enter the body - and even the brain - intact.
The pioneering research of W.A. Hemmings and Ziovdrov and others had repeatedly demonstrated this by the late 1970's in a wide variety of experiments using many different proteins. (12, 33)
In the 1997 textbook Oxidology, Bradford and Allen even explain the mechanism of how this occurs.
It is based on a cellular process called "pinocytosis." (44)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now which of these proteins are in NatCell Thymus Extract. Why isn’t Thymosin or one of the other active ingredients mentioned??? You know why cause it don’t work and cant work unless its injected.

Whether it does anything when its injected is another thing altogether.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These studies have generally shown thymus gland extracts to be extremely non-toxic and side effect free, with few contraindications for use.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes and nearly all of them injected the extracts. There is a 27 page PDF you can download. Go on count the oral studies. One in the first 15 pages and that was with children, gave up after that.

Below is how he leads you into not only thinking Thymaus extract works but that purchasing cheaper versions wont do you any good. He doesn’t give any evidence only anecdotal shite.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the 1997 textbook Oxidology, Bradford and Allen even explain the mechanism of how this occurs. It is based on a cellular process called "pinocytosis." (44)

The thymus gland creates the T-4 "helper" white blood cells that perform their specialized job in the human body of locating invaders such as viruses, bacteria, or abnormal cells. The thymus gland also sends out the T-8 "killer" white blood cells to find invaders and destroy them.

People with advanced liver pathology will feel better after practicing the recommendations in this book. However, they may not completely reverse the path of the hepatitis C virus unless they incorporate the most aggressive treatment that delivers the best possible results: NatCell™ frozen thymus extract.

Enough cannot be said about live peptide thymus extract, which feeds the immune system what it needs to kill the hepatitis C virus. There are many forms of thymus: pills, liquid, natural, and artificial. These different products range from worthless to terrific.

I attribute most of the successful eradication of hepatitis C from my body as a direct result of consuming several thousand dollars of this product in eighteen months. Keep in mind that I had to pay as much as $600 a box to obtain thymus extract from doctors. I provide this same item for less than $140. I took one frozen vial every other day. I thawed it in my hand, poured one half vial under my tongue, and held it for five minutes, and repeat. If I could afford it, I would take it the rest of my life. If Cortez had found the fountain of youth, this could have been how he felt.

I advise against taking cheaper products. One example is Thymoic Protein A, a product listed in Health and Healing, March 1997 (15). I took this product post-healing, and I did not notice the jolt or feeling of well-being associated with the natural form. I question whether or not Thymic Protein A is effective, as it contains only one of the seven main properties of the thymus gland.

Be warned, some of these products will not dissolve in water, even after an entire month. These pass through you completely and into the toilet. If you have hepatitis C, you need NatCell™ thymus extract!

Thymic hormones and their downstream cell products (such as interleukins and interferons) control all of the phases of maturation, development, antigen commitment, proliferation and cytotoxic activity of the various T cells. Thymic hormones also stimulate non-specific phagocytic and cytotoxic cells to respond against foreign or "non-self" antigens.

Liver diseases, including chronic hepatitis and primary biliary cirrhosis, have been successfully treated by natcell thymus extract. Results of a study using 102 patients with chronic hepatitis and primary biliary cirrhosis showed an increase in T lymphocytes, increased functional activity of mononuclear cells (increased chemotaxis and inhibition), and decreased immunoglobulin counts. All of these indicators signify an increased competence, which favors controlling the immunoinflammatory process in the liver and a normalization of the clinical manifestation of the disease leading to a favorable outcome. (16)

These results are important not only for successful treatment of a very difficult disease, which frequently has an unfavorable outcome, but also for the implications for treatment of hepatitis produced by other causes. Viruses, fungi, or mycobacteria (tuberculosis) cause many of the inflammatory conditions of the liver. (17) Cellular immunity is the chief defense against these agents. Successful treatment using NatCell Thymus extract suggests many exciting possibilities for treatment of the presently untreatable ailments of the liver using immunomodulating substances such as thymus extracts.

Anyway take the Cr@p if you want 2 but be warned it a con.

Lloyds wallet thanks you, your liver wont.
CS

[copyman]

I know Lloyds cow glands may work for some but i prefer bull testicles myself :-)

[CockSparrow]

ROFL - How do you take them sublingual.
CS

[pitter]

thanks for the info.

[pitter]

sorry for my angry snap at you...but anger tends to beget anger
and hostility and impatience just generates the same in others......
and when I read your posts most of the time I end up feeling angry...
You have alot of knowledge obviously...you just have a way of putting  it out there with lemon juice.
I am going back to trying to be a nice person again now.
You are a help to this forum.
Pitter

[Willy50]

First of all, you could be right and I acknowlege that there is vailidity in some of the argument I've read.  I don't want to give the impresion that I dismiss your views.

I am notoriously slow to reach conclusions. I think the amount of information needed to decisively prove the issue would take a daunting amount of evidence.  Some people will need more proof, some will require less.  I am not arguing that thymus in any form works, only that I'm unsure either way.  Evidence is better than opinion.  My personal experience provides skepticism but uncertainty.  

For me....upon awakening this morning I had the thought of what would happen if I had listed the things that  I DISAGREED with Lloyd on instead of listing things that I felt that he offered some benefit.  I remember taking issue with him on the subject of vaccination; he is not keen on vaccinations.  When one looks at the number of people who get exposed to Hep A and B however..... this might be considered bad advice, even fatal for some people.  On the flip side in his defense I keep reading information about some vaccines being either ineffective and sometimes perhaps unsafe.  I'm not able to argue it effectively either way and the answer may not be totally clear or substantially medically proven.  Here also the terrain is uneven; there could be a potential danger in getting a vaccine and danger in not getting inoculated.  For me the greater danger is in not getting inoculated.

So it goes with treating (TX).  It is not without it's dangers as well.  It also offers our current best shot at clearing the virus.  For many people clearing the virus still can come at a certain cost.  For genotype 1's the odds of failing treatment may still be greater than succeeding.  Many of these people still can face medical issues and lasting side effects from treatment AND remain infected.  Evidence posted recently in this forum suggests that for some resistant variants to various forms of treatment may be created and persist following treatment.

As I mentioned, Lloyd is a loud spokesman against interferon.  My issues with him is that he is too extreme; for me he is fringe.  I still feel that he provides information on the downsides (you won't find any "upside pro TX" info) at his site.  For me...... that means he is myopic.  That is just my personal take on the subject and as I mentioned; I'm no scientist.  In spite of my opinion I recognize I could be wrong.  In spite of my opinion I still see a lot of information, food for thought, offered at his site.  I concur that so far as what he offers about interferon seems to be fear.  It's another aspect of his site that I feel is over the top.  I nevertheless feel that evens his possible over response in arguing about the "evils of interferon" can serve some good in that it provides some dialogue on why one might not treat.  I feel that many people are in need of help making the decision to treat or to wait.  I find myself in the middle with many of the diagnosed but currently not treating HCV infected; I'm just waiting for something better.  

As I mentioned, the arguments for trying his regimen may have made more sense when the TX SVR rate was in the teens.  I feel that (if and when) the new PI's get approved and the SVR rate may climb to 70-80% or better,  it may make even less sense to embark on his program (which if it even has an SVR rate it would probably be less than 1% but I don't think I've ever seen that offered).  Even IF that were to occur however Lloyd could still be correct (or partially so) about interferon.  Treatment is not without it's dangers.  I don't totally agree with him.  I don't totally dismiss him.  Right or wrong I think he believes in what he is doing.  

best,
willy

[CockSparrow]

Right or wrong I think he believes in what he is doing.  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont. He believes in his wallet.
How many lies does it take before you realise someone is a liar?

[Willy50]

Hey; I've been wrong before.  : )

Thanks for weighing in.

Willy

[Forseegood]

just don't think it's as black and white as others here claim..the stuff may be good for some things, the guy just is over stating it's beneficial effects, from what I an see, and spends too much time downplaying the potential "good" of conventional treatment...which is pretty darn unforgivable as it's the only thing to help get you a real cure...

But in his defense, he works with a lot of people who have tried conventional treatment, multiple times even...and are messed up from the experience...

I think a lot of the "everything except conventional treatment is snake oil people" don't really address these "other" people, and there are a lot of them...

what do these people do? They can benefit from some of these things, I know I do. Maybe not his stuff, I don't know...Never tried Wright's stuff, so I can't address that, but I think he does talk about supplemental regiments, etc as well no? Maybe his stuff would be okay to take to HELP, (I don't know for sure, never used it or know anybody that has) and it would be great if Lloyd Wright and his over-amped marketing schemes would be taken out of the equation.

[CockSparrow]

Jeez Forseegood where do I begin. You have mistaken my dislike and distrust of Lloyd Wright as an attack on non conventional Tx. Not so. Wont comment on whether supplements are worth taking as I don’t know enough about them and cant find enough hard evidence that supports it. Doesn’t mean I think that supplements are worthless, and doesn’t mean that I wont consider taking them in the future, some are definitely interesting.

Lloyd Wright is a different issue altogether and would like to think that most can see thru his FUD.
Apart from his Interferon Kills bulls hit (I’ve had 2 rounds of Tx and it aint killed me) and I wont mention Cats Claw or any of the other supplements you get from him for your $1600 a month. My main beef with him is the lies he sprouts about his Thymus Extract. You see the active ingredients of Thymus extract are proteins. Now almost all proteins will be broken down and treated as food if taken orally.
Thats why we inject Interferon and don’t take it in pill form.
Thymosin alpha is one of the active ingredients of his Cow/Pig thymus extracts and has been synthetised by Cyclone and is available in 25 countries for HCV Tx. This drug is injected, why?
Cause it don’t work if taken orally.
How does he try and get around this, well by lying is @rse off, thats how.

Taken from my post above
Enough cannot be said about live peptide thymus extract, which feeds the immune system what it needs to kill the hepatitis C virus.
I attribute most of the successful eradication of hepatitis C from my body as a direct result of consuming several thousand dollars of this product in eighteen months
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You couldn’t possibly consider this as just over stating the benefits of Thymus extracts.
It’s a total utter and complete lie and you know it.

And as Mremeet said “Why is it that after Lloyd Wright comes under fire for being a "liar and scam artist", there's an outpouring of ill defined and highly defensive sentiment from several people in support of alternative therapies in general?*”

Paraphrasing what Mre said to Willy “you’re a good person 4C but backing Wright ain’t right”. In any way shape or form. The guy is only interested in fattening his wallet and could care less about those that suffer IFN related sides. He is a con artist and uses fear as his primary money making tool.
The guy is dangerous.

CS

[Willy50]

CS you omit that the thymus extract is to be taken sublingually and therefore sidesteps the digestive process.  Many drugs are administered sublingually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual

The past several years anyone who dared to question the war in Iraq has been labeled as "supporting the insurgents".  Essentially the same tactic is used here in ones arguments.  Now, Foreseegood is "backing Wright" when all that she is saying is to keep an open mind.  

Merry Christmas.

Willy

[CockSparrow]

I did mention sublingual in the prior post, Under the tongue.
Anyway believe what you like.

When it comes to Lloyd Wright there is nos such thing as an open mind.

His wallet truely does thank you.
CS

[CockSparrow]

Had to add Sublingual DOES NOT get around the probelm. Their size is too large.
10-50 kda is what the site says how large they are. This is roughly the same size as Interferon and we dont take that sublingual for a good reason.

CS

[Forseegood]

just can't see where you think my post "backs" Loydd Wright? I just am not as vehemently against him as you are, as per previous post...I just don't know enough about him.

[mremeet]

CS good points you're making, sometimes it's a lonely battle to say anything contrary about some of these alternative scam artists. First you're unfairly and illogically characterized as being "against" all alternative therapies, even if all you do is go after a specific huckster WITHOUT paning all alternative therapies. Then the burden of proof is shifted to you instead of the huckster. It's not up to the financially involved huckster to prove he's "wright", it's up to you as the financially uninvolved skeptic to prove he's wrong. I mean, what's up with that??? 4c and willy, don't you guys get this? I don't understand what's so complicated about it, I really don't.

And pitter, I'm sorry you seemed to get so upset about what I said. I think I know why, I've been facing the music (i.e. at the receiving end of the shoot the messenger syndrome) from people with HCV in this way for a long time. I think you interpret what I said as being dismissive not only of Lloyd Wright and his claims, but also you think I'm dismissive of ALL alternative therapies by default (which is wrong!). And I think this disturbs and perhaps even angers you because these things offer hope. Hope that you may be able to be helped by alternative treatments and maybe even be outright cured as wright would have us believe. Just so you know, it's not my intention to send you into a tailspin of despair or to take away your hope. It’s only my intention as a fellow hepper to share with you what I’ve learned over the past 10 years so you can focus on what works and not waste your time on what doesn’t work.

I'm not sure where you are in your ever developing story of HCV, but I've come a long way since finding out I had HCV. I was the scared newbie suddenly diagnosed with this mysterious disease back in 1997 (infected in ’83). My doctor didn't know anything about HCV and neither did I. After I first found out, I thought I was a dead man. It took some time to get together enough information to peel away the levels of mystery and to realize this thing was probably not going to be killing me, at least anytime soon. Then I researched everything as best I could by buying up all the books I could find and reading on the internet. I was pretty heavy into investigating alternative therapies via herbs and supplements, although I never became the world’s expert on the subject. I also looked into ozone therapy, ultraviolet blood irradiation therapy and some other kooky stuff, eventually including wright’s glands.

I’ve taken many alternative substances, so many I can’t really remember all of them offhand. But here’s the short list: Milk thistle (still take that today), dandelion root (still make dandy tea once in a while), reishi mushrooms, turmeric, burdock root, NaC, lipoic acid, liverite, ginseng (Chinese and siberian), licorice, vit E, vit C, spirulina (i.e. pond scum), ginger, st johns wort, lycopene, selenium, iron free multi-vitamins, melatonin…and that’s all I can remember offhand (but believe me there’s more). I took these things and monitored my viral load and enzymes off and on in an unscientific manner over the course of several years (basically using my body as an HCV-supplement test bed). I also made note of how I felt after taking each substance. Generally none of these things had any real appreciable effect on my VL or enzymes. Although my VL did seem to elevate significantly as I got older (first VL was about 100,000 IU/ml, last one before treating was ~1.5 million IU/ml). Although I will say that milk thistle did seem to lower my enzymes slightly.

But do my mediocre and unscientific findings based on my own trial and error experiences with these various substances prove that none of them are useful and/or that alternative therapies in general are useless?? Of course not, I’m not saying they at all. I’m just telling you what’s happened to me (and what hasn’t happened to me) in my own little world when it comes to these substances. It’s definitely possible that something good could come out of alternative substances. But be forewarned finding out what those substances might be can be very tricky business with someone like Wright around (and thousands of others just like him) to make things “easy” for you. If you’re really going to look into herbal/supplemental therapy, I’d advise you to be very judicious in your research and be very careful about what you put into your body. There are herbs and supplements that can be lethal to us heppers. Also, if you haven’t seen what HR has written here about NaC and some other substances he has personally researched (as well as they can be researched without clinical trials), then THAT is what I would advise doing. If there were ever an alternative regimen that might be helpful to a hepper, especially one with advanced fibrosis, the constituents he discusses are the most likely ones to help (IMO). And HR is a person you can truly trust, both his intellectual judgment and his moral compass (unlike someone like Wright).

Lastly, since I finally took the plunge and underwent the LONG dreaded interferon based treatment just last year, I’ve learned even more. I must have read a thousand stories, certainly including Wright’s spiel, about how god awful interferon treatment was…and how unlikely it would be that I would be cured (no one’s cured by IFN according to wright). But you know what? Yes it was tough for me, but the interferon was not as bad as I had been led to believe (now the VX950, that’s another story ;-) . And guess what? I nailed my SVR. I’m now standing on the other side of the fence. I used to be on the sick and getting sicker side, now I’m on the SVR side. My liver is getting better, my virus is gone and it won’t be coming back. And I feel GREAT! Much better than I did before treating. I think I feel great because I’ve been cured. TRULY cured, and my repeatable UND PCR’s bear that out. It’s a fabulous feeling like I cannot describe. Getting my SVR is everything I had hoped for. And it was all made possible via interferon based treatment. So please remember that there IS another side to the coin when listening to what a scammer like Wright says. And if you take a look around this site alone, look at how many people have been cured by IFN…then take a look at how many people who have been cured by cow glands?? Something to think about. In the meantime I wish you peace and good health and for you to find your way to a cure, just like I did. Take care…

[pitter]

mremeet, well when you say it this way , I can get it (better)..you are talking from your gut now, other inputs from you were all from your head...and while it all sounds very intelligent, it is hard to follow...(I'm not a dumb blonde either, blonde, but not dumb) and your frustration really came thru too..but it sounded like anger to me..it is probably the man-woman emotional difference thing in there too..
no offense meant.! I appreciate you taking the time to elabotrate on what happened to you..
I am glad to hear that you are SVR..that is great...I hope I will be so lucky...
I am thinking about doing the medical way...trying to get myself ready...I am scared...there just doesn't seem to be any good time to go do it... I have crappy insurance, and we just built a new house...so what if I can't work??..I know..so many people are in the same boat .,..or worse..and this isn't only about me I know...
of course I wish there was an easier softer way, and keep looking for one...but I have found nothing to convince me that the "natural way: works either ! I wish there was...I know myself with meds..I don't do well, I have bad insomnia allready ,and  RA, mild depression,,,oh boy!!!! oh well...maybe it won't be as bad as I think...but I am going to wait awhile still.  Weds. eve, there will be a Gastroenterologist speaking in Cromwell Conn., thru St.Francis Hospital about Hep C..It was in the Hartford Courant on Sat. (if anyone is interested , I could leave the details here for you) . Well I am going to go to that and see how UP they are on things. I haven't found a doctor that I feel confident in yet either...
Back to LLoyd..I am not saying he is correct...but I wish he was!!!!
I also wish the lady who restarted this discussion would come back and elaborate on herself..
If there is anyone out there that has any real positive stuff about alternatives to the meds. PLEASE SPEAK OUT.... some REAL success stories!!! I would like  to hear...
You don't hear many...or is that because they get shot down quickly around here??? I am JUST ASKING!!! NOT DEFENDING Lloyd...I allways figure to "leave no stone unturned"
thanks and peace to all, Pitter

[Forseegood]

I'm not talking about msteremmet, or anybody else here...just making a general observation that some people have a knee jerk reaction whenever you talk about anything that isn't standard treatment, didn't mean you guys...what I said about this other stuff, I've already said...I'm not backing Wright, pretty much says so in my post...respectully, hope all is well with everyone, decorating xmas presents

[scratchinghead]

Everything you say is impeccable. You are a much needed color and tone on this wide canvas. Your self-tests depress me but at the same time give me hope knowing that there is some real thinking and experience on this forum. I guess I'll stick with as stringent a nutrition program as I can because it might help me carry around a few more pounds of virus without falling over.

[Mr Liver]

'that makes him money at the expense of sick, vulnerable people"

I agree wholeheartedly . Those who sell lies and false hopes to sick, frightened, and desperate people are the lowest vermin that are on the face of this earth.

regards,
Mr Liver

[pitter]

I can't tell by your name if you are a doctor or not...kinda sounds like you are?
just trying to look at the whole picture...
Pitter

[Mr Liver]

Hi pitter,

No, I'm not a medico of any sort. Since being diagnosed in 2000 with cirrhosis I have learned quite a bit about livers and HCV, though. Also, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. The "Mr Liver' moniker is for amusement purposes only. And boy, have I ever been amused by it. Most people love it, but It irritates a few which is the part that accounts for my amusement.

I have had the chance to study up on different alternative and conventional HCV tx modalities for years and have read quite alot of the printed word pertaining to HCV. Thymus gland, produced synthetically as Thymosin (zadaxin) has been in numerous trials with interferon over years past in the US.. It showed improved response rates which looked hopeful at first. But then the data showed an extremely high relapse rate. So, it may help to get you to UND but apparently cannot keep the patient from relapsing at rates much higher than seen when it is not used. This stuff has been around the HCV arena for 6-7 years and has not met with success in the treatment of HCV for the several companies who have owned the patent. You can get zadaxin from Mexico if you really want some.

When it comes to the use of alternative and herbal remedies do these things and you will be manyfold safer:
ONLY take or use herbs and other supplements if they have been rigorously tested for purity then used in blinded, pacebo-controlled, trials subject to the critical review of peers who are specialists in the field . If you follow this dictum you should be absolutely safe. It is good to vet these sites by checking them out with Quackwatch, the FTC, and other consumer protection groups.
And personal testimonials cannot be disproved, are easy to create, and are made to sound very convincing. They are a favorite on sites that sell questionable products that can cure everything from a hangnail to a brain tumor and just about anything in between. Take it all with a grain of salt.

As for Lloyd Wright, he is just one of many online charlatans that exist as a result of the lobbying power of the alternative med, vitamin, and supplement  industry. A 30 billion dollar a year industry, I might add. The FDA won't crack down as a result of this lobbying, and regulate this industry. The FTC however can take them down and do so regularly for fraud.

Being stage 0-1 I'm not sure why you are seeking out anything for your liver beyond living a good lifestyle. You have plenty of time to wait for more effective and shorter treatments.Depending upon the appx time of infection it may point toward s tx never being necessary at all in your future. Some people are termed 'slow fibrosers. They will die with HCV not from it.

In a few years, treatment times will be halved  and at the same time SVR rates are expected to rise to an average 65%-%70 overall. G2's and G3's may have SVR rates >85% This is the outlook for just one small molecule drugs out of many in the current pipeline. These numbers are for just one of the many trials underway to find better treatments. I have good info that the interferon doses may be lowered as well in the triple therapy without harming chances for SVR.. This is very good news for those who cannot tolerate SOC more specifically interferon.The shorter the time on these meds the less chance for side effects to be bothersome.

I'm just throwing out some food for thought. I have always advised that treatment should never be undertaken unless it is convincingly found to be both necessary and appropriate.

Remember natural does not mean safe, and always let your doc know if you use any alternative meds.

regards,
Mr Liver

[Willy50]

I'm in substantial agreement with your last post.  I'm not convinced that Lloyd is a charlatan, but as previously mentioned I don't agree with him right down the line.  

I agree that newer treatments hold tremendous potential benefit for us all and that many of us can wait to treat until they are approved.  Some judicious use of alternatives may be done while waiting without great expense or risk.  As Mr Liver mentioned (and as I did in a prior post) you must research them out and you must also monitor your results if you do so.  Diet and lifestyle choices are also of great importance and can be done with little expense or risk, IMHO.  

A link on 3 "botanicals" presented to the AASLD 2007;

http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/2007icr/aasld/docs/120407_b.html

best,
Willy

[pitter]

Thank you for sharing your hard worked for knowledge (and all of you here as well)
You made me have some hope!!! I am really afraid of the tx. I don't know for sure exactly when I did get  hep c. Could have been 8-9 yrs. or maybe back from dental work 30 yrs ago..or cocaine straws 30 yrs ago..I did not drink any alcohol for 14 yrs,(until 7 yrs ago I started drinking wine) I found out about the hepc Feb.07..during routine blood test for insurance... I am on waiting list with a hepatologist...I want to be monitored regularly...
I haven't done any alternatives accept a little milk thistle. When I first found out, I happened to get onto Lloyd Wrights site... and what he said about the medical treatments  scared me...he said," If you take the Interfuron, you will never be well again"    that was when I first posted here about him??? I got a  mess all going here about that...that is how this thread started...
well I am still coming here, I got a few of his books and read a little...but I am sort of paralized as to what to do...so I am going to wait and watch for awhile...
thank you again.
Pitter

[Mr Liver]

"Watchful waiting" is a fairly common practice, especially for those such as yourself with very little or no damage. Set up regular blood labs (I would want to have 2X a year min.) Most hepatologists will reschedule biopsy for 3-5 years from now. Ironically, you are in an enviable position for someone who has HCV. You can afford to wait to see how many of these new investigational drugs perform over time as opposed to feeling rushed to jump on the first one approved.

You don't need to turn into a diet-conscious fanatic,either. Moderation is always the key. The liver has a job to do and the little damage that you have will not affect its ability to do it just because you eat a greasy cheeseburger now and then. Now, your heart on the other hand.....    ;)

regards,
Mr Liver

[Lady Lauri]

  D*M! What a thread!! And trying to read several post over a few times. (I couldn't even keep up with the 'political', much less intense thread yesterday!) Is good to have threads that MAKE my brain work...errr....normal at times right now.
  Interesting thread, about 200 thoughts, questions, comments in my head right now.....not even going to try now tho :}
  I learn so much here!

                                                                       LL

[pitter]

I will be getting a new blood test soon, and I will watch that heart !!! And my BUTT!!! Ha!!
I am sure we will talk again!!
thank you,
Pitter

[passagrille]

just got this email from a friend...........
dear__________
We found the cure for hep c and it's working out wonderfully! Please check out Lloyd Wright.org. He wrote the book "Triumph Over Hepatitis C". We came across him after the interferon treatment failed with _____. _____ is taking the thymus and liver extracts plus the viral elimination supplements. It's pricey but we feel it's worth it. I've seen a big change in her, she can tolerate the sun and has been working long hours in the yard. We plan to have a blood test in several months to see where shes at. The testamonials were convincing and he has an online pharmacy.

she is stage 4 with her liver

[pitter]

hi passagrille and thank you,
please keep us posted.
Thanks....
(not to start anything up again here anyone,!!! but this obviously can be helpful to someone!!!

[HCA]

Yeah-helpful to Lloyd Wright!
This man is one of the worst exploiters of the sick that ever lived and I won't tolerate seeing the same anecdotal nonsense appearing here without blasting it.
Lloyd Wright never had hep c,the entire operation is a scam and it grieves me to see that people are posting notices here which describe a placebo effect.

[portann]

Hi HCA,

You speak for me in respect of Lloyd Wright. Thank you.

I really enjoyed reading Mr. Liver's replies in this thread from two years ago, before my time. Quite a brain he has and so articulate.

Hope all is well.

[passagrille]

i wasnt really endorsing mr wrights web site, only speaking to the fact the people can get sucked in to claims on the internet.
in their msg to me they had "found the cure" seems a little far fetched, plus she had only just started and had not got her blood work done.
since she is at stage 4, i believe a transplant is in her future.
im not sure how ridding the body of hep c can make your liver go from stage 4 to 3 or 2.

[pitter]

I am confused, why did you start this thing then?
for an argument?
or did you chicken out ?
Everyone is different, different things work for different people for different reasons.
No one has THE ANSWER FOR EVERYONE ALL OF THE TIME.
I have not used any thing of lloyds.
And not for any other reason than, I am not yet sure of what is right for me.
And no one will know what that is accept for me, getting my own info, and making my own decisions.
Most people are not stupid.
altho many thinkle peep they are.

[passagrille]

oh

[tashka]

I read Lloyd Wright's books and visited his web site. Some of the herbs/supplements that he recommends are good for the liver, but by no means can they eradicate the virus like he claims. And his expensive frozen thymus is just a big scam. It is a protein, which is going to be destroyed by digestive enzymes in the stomach and intestines. If it would be possible to take thymus proteins by mouth, interferon and insulin would be administered by mouth (they are also proteins). It is sad that people waste their money on this stuff that makes Lloyd Wright rich.
I don't believe that he has ever had hepatitis C. He was asked multiple times to provide his PCR results-with detected and undetected viral DNA. He always comes up woth ridiculous excuses, for example that evil doctors refuse to release his blood work. Labs and biopsy results that he provides in his book don't prove hepatitis C; such changes can be caused by many other liver diseases.
But I think it is good that his name comes up on this forum, and people can hear the truth about this person and hopefully save their hard earned money.

[HCA]

Thank you tashka-I have always believed he never had Hep C and it is good to see other people making the same informed conclusion based on the availble evidence.

[dwert56]

I've read the Lloyd Wright posts with curiosity and amazement.  Seems just the mention of his name can really stir up a #$%@ storm!  I don't know if what he sells works or not.  I'm trying to recover from the affects of treatment in 2001, cleared the virus, but am disabled from peg-intron.  No, not the Hep C, I had no clue I had the virus.   An annual physical picked it up.
As far as I'm concerned, the same venom should be directed at the pharmaceutical companies.  They make lots of money of Hep C treatments, don't have good clinical data (delete people from studies who got really sick or died), advertise like crazy, tell you to stay on treatment no matter what.  The doctors who DO NOT inform you the sides may be permanent.  Maybe they do now, but not back in 2001.
I am someone who is desperately trying to find way off the disabled life and back into being able to work and live more fully.
I have been considering trying the NatCel to see if that could help with the brain fog, cognitive dysfunction, etc, etc.  Does anyone have any experience with that?  How can I get the true story regarding if the extracts are worthwhile or not?