Aa
D.U.M.B. - Disorders in Doctors
Our dear friend Wonko found this on a lyme disease forum and kindly sent it to me. There was no attribution as to who wrote it ...
I'm sure you can appreciate this new problem with doctors.
*******************
Epidemic of Disorders in Doctors
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The emergence of Medically Unexplained Illnesses has revealed an epidemic of behavioral problems and personality disorders in doctors.
Patients expressing unfamiliar complaints to their physicians often induce the "It's All In Your Head" (AIYH) or the "That's Impossible" response in doctors suffering from these behavioral problems and personality disorders.
Physicians who manifest the metaphysical belief system of "If we don't know about it, then it doesn't exist" are suffering from a psychological condition known as "Doctors with Unexplained Medical Beliefs" or D.U.M.B.
DUMB doctors are comprised of two categories that are characterized by a) those who are feigning to be DUMB for monetary gain: "Medicalingering", and b) those who are not in possession of sufficient information to render intelligent diagnoses: "Factlessitious Disorder".
Physicians who are predisposed to this condition place an inordinate emphasis on theories of psychological causality for virtually any unfamiliar complaints that are presented to them.
This somatiform obsession with psychological etiology, "Psychosomatization Disorder" or "Psychologizing" is a distinctive characteristic of the illness and should be considered a warning sign that the individual is not rational and may in fact be DUMB.
DUMB disorder may be concomitant but should not be confused with Signs of Thoroughly Umistakable Physician Intelligence Deficiency or "S.T.U.P.I.D." since a STUPID physician is uniformly incompetent while a DUMB doctor is only mentally paralyzed into "psychologizing" by unfamiliar symptoms and complaints.
An immediate investigation is warranted to assess the prevalence of DUMB and STUPID doctors and to determine the impact that physicians suffering from these conditions have on the health care system and their patients.
I'm sure you can appreciate this new problem with doctors.
*******************
Epidemic of Disorders in Doctors
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The emergence of Medically Unexplained Illnesses has revealed an epidemic of behavioral problems and personality disorders in doctors.
Patients expressing unfamiliar complaints to their physicians often induce the "It's All In Your Head" (AIYH) or the "That's Impossible" response in doctors suffering from these behavioral problems and personality disorders.
Physicians who manifest the metaphysical belief system of "If we don't know about it, then it doesn't exist" are suffering from a psychological condition known as "Doctors with Unexplained Medical Beliefs" or D.U.M.B.
DUMB doctors are comprised of two categories that are characterized by a) those who are feigning to be DUMB for monetary gain: "Medicalingering", and b) those who are not in possession of sufficient information to render intelligent diagnoses: "Factlessitious Disorder".
Physicians who are predisposed to this condition place an inordinate emphasis on theories of psychological causality for virtually any unfamiliar complaints that are presented to them.
This somatiform obsession with psychological etiology, "Psychosomatization Disorder" or "Psychologizing" is a distinctive characteristic of the illness and should be considered a warning sign that the individual is not rational and may in fact be DUMB.
DUMB disorder may be concomitant but should not be confused with Signs of Thoroughly Umistakable Physician Intelligence Deficiency or "S.T.U.P.I.D." since a STUPID physician is uniformly incompetent while a DUMB doctor is only mentally paralyzed into "psychologizing" by unfamiliar symptoms and complaints.
An immediate investigation is warranted to assess the prevalence of DUMB and STUPID doctors and to determine the impact that physicians suffering from these conditions have on the health care system and their patients.
Hahaha, I sure needed this smile across my face tonight... Thank you for this Lulu...
Carol
Carol
Boy, OH Boy, This sure caught everyones attention.. My New Neuros have these disorders..
Thank Goodness for Dr.Rocci, He is awsome..He my PCP.. We have to be here for each other and Lulu, Thanks for keeping us so up todate with new info..
Love all of you and thanks for the giggles, I needed them today...
{{{{~!~}}}} DJ
Thank Goodness for Dr.Rocci, He is awsome..He my PCP.. We have to be here for each other and Lulu, Thanks for keeping us so up todate with new info..
Love all of you and thanks for the giggles, I needed them today...
{{{{~!~}}}} DJ
I'm getting copies of my neurology records. Quix's last funny on the appendage drop sounds just like the neuro I've spent months working with. I was told that because of too low of an antibody titer and negative CSF for oligoclonal bands that Hashi's enceph was very unlikely. But all of the literature I've been reading says antibody titers do not correlate with disease severity (they don't believe they're pathogenic, but marker for another autoimmune process not yet identified) and only 15% of patients who met all the diagnostic criteria had oligoclonal bands in their CSF. That's an awfully small number to rule out a serious and sometimes deadly disease.
I have to credit him with looking for the Ab in the first place. I'm not sure anyone else would have thought of it. But it was what followed that convinced me I was going to get absolutely nowhere.
This one also seems to want to write everything off as migraines, quick spins, ocular migraines, anxiety, and the last one I heard and will hear is steroid euphoria.
And they do cause enough stress to set off a flare up!
I can't wait to see what's in my records.
I have to credit him with looking for the Ab in the first place. I'm not sure anyone else would have thought of it. But it was what followed that convinced me I was going to get absolutely nowhere.
This one also seems to want to write everything off as migraines, quick spins, ocular migraines, anxiety, and the last one I heard and will hear is steroid euphoria.
And they do cause enough stress to set off a flare up!
I can't wait to see what's in my records.
These are horrible stories. I have one eerily similar to yours. Nearly two years ago, I had all of the symptoms of trigeminal neuritis (not neuralgia), following a bout with viral thyroiditis, which followed several poorly healing tooth extractions, which followed a horrendous respiratory infection that hung on for 8 weeks.
I went to see a neurologist in St.Louis, upon the recommendation of a cardiologist to whom I had been referred. What a nightmare. He was about 80 years old and was just so abusive, yelling at me to do this and do that, and the more he yelled and insulted me, the more anxious and depressed I became. He did an MRI just to cover his medical ***, and it showed that I had bulging discs at 5 points in my cervical spinal cord, significant thickening of the meninges, and a number of small opaque areas in my white matter. But he didn't think that any of these were significant, nor were they sufficient to cause any of my symptoms ot trigeminal neuritis (much less neuralgia), and certainly not sufficient to warrant any further testing or evaluation. Furthermore, his diagnosis was that it was all in my head and that I needed psychiatric care.
I did not follow up on reporting him to the medical board or other agency. In retrospect, I think if he had properly taken a full medical history (instead of interrupting me and dismissing everything I told him), I might have some idea of what is wrong with me now. The problem is, now there is just some mild thickening in the meninges and a bit of scoliosis, and there are no signs now of the numerous white matter opacity (just one small area and that is "nonspecific"). No obvious markers of any plaques, MS lesions, etc. I am not letting my current neurologist know about the MRI I had in St.Louis by the jerk neurologist, because I don't want him to see the notes about how it was all in my head. Because of the DUMB and STUPID doctor phenomenon, I can't trust my neurologist to be an independent thinker.
I went to see a neurologist in St.Louis, upon the recommendation of a cardiologist to whom I had been referred. What a nightmare. He was about 80 years old and was just so abusive, yelling at me to do this and do that, and the more he yelled and insulted me, the more anxious and depressed I became. He did an MRI just to cover his medical ***, and it showed that I had bulging discs at 5 points in my cervical spinal cord, significant thickening of the meninges, and a number of small opaque areas in my white matter. But he didn't think that any of these were significant, nor were they sufficient to cause any of my symptoms ot trigeminal neuritis (much less neuralgia), and certainly not sufficient to warrant any further testing or evaluation. Furthermore, his diagnosis was that it was all in my head and that I needed psychiatric care.
I did not follow up on reporting him to the medical board or other agency. In retrospect, I think if he had properly taken a full medical history (instead of interrupting me and dismissing everything I told him), I might have some idea of what is wrong with me now. The problem is, now there is just some mild thickening in the meninges and a bit of scoliosis, and there are no signs now of the numerous white matter opacity (just one small area and that is "nonspecific"). No obvious markers of any plaques, MS lesions, etc. I am not letting my current neurologist know about the MRI I had in St.Louis by the jerk neurologist, because I don't want him to see the notes about how it was all in my head. Because of the DUMB and STUPID doctor phenomenon, I can't trust my neurologist to be an independent thinker.
Yes, some laughter is what is called for. Michael Valentine Smith (from Stranger in a Strange Land) noted that humans often laugh when it is too painful to cry.
q
q
We're bumping and grinding all over this place today - lots of good material in these old posts. I'm sure everyone can use the laugh and the provocative thinking.
Good to hear from you and glad I provided a laugh, even if I did lift it from someone else - another context (actors pertraying doctors).
Quix
Quix
Doctors Without Knowledge
ROFLMAO !!! Yep, I actually laughed out loud quite riotously. Thanks, Quix.
Today I posted on one of the Limboland threads about how their thinking is sooooo messy. Yet they seem to think they are a cut above. (So that's why my new GP asks me about stuff and sends me reports direct because she doesn't understand them....uh huh...)
tch
ROFLMAO !!! Yep, I actually laughed out loud quite riotously. Thanks, Quix.
Today I posted on one of the Limboland threads about how their thinking is sooooo messy. Yet they seem to think they are a cut above. (So that's why my new GP asks me about stuff and sends me reports direct because she doesn't understand them....uh huh...)
tch
Borrowing an idea from one of the actors of a TV show at a fictional Mercy Hospital - I believe that there is a large organization two which many of our neuros belong. They are quite proud of their membership and feel that it converys upon them great status as physicians and humanitarians. This organization is often lauded for its incredible bravery and embracing of the ideals of true physician spirit. The Doc Heroes of this group are volunteers and travel the world to tend to the poor and forgotten, often in the middle of war, strife and danger.
The problem is that our neuros also believe that they participate in this wonderful organization here, at home. No, they are never in danger and no, they do not volunteer. Most of them are paid handomely. But still, they believe that they are truly special - belonging to that world famous group......Doctors Without Knowledge.
Yep, something else they got wrong.
The problem is that our neuros also believe that they participate in this wonderful organization here, at home. No, they are never in danger and no, they do not volunteer. Most of them are paid handomely. But still, they believe that they are truly special - belonging to that world famous group......Doctors Without Knowledge.
Yep, something else they got wrong.
Hello everyone,
Yes I am going to file a report and press charges on this Doc. My Fam. Doc is so angry at him, she's getting things started while new meds get my body under control.
Quix, go ahead and use my story I don't mine. We need to reach out and help others who have been treated bad by stupid,dump,cruel docs.
Those of us who live in the US know our country has laws to protect people. I'm relieved to know there are even laws to protect in my case.
I hope to be feeling stronger and in at least bearable pain soon. At that time I will be filing complaints and making a police report too.
My Fam. Doc wants me to get my symps under control first.
Thanks to all and I will keep you posted. Sincerly NiCee
Yes I am going to file a report and press charges on this Doc. My Fam. Doc is so angry at him, she's getting things started while new meds get my body under control.
Quix, go ahead and use my story I don't mine. We need to reach out and help others who have been treated bad by stupid,dump,cruel docs.
Those of us who live in the US know our country has laws to protect people. I'm relieved to know there are even laws to protect in my case.
I hope to be feeling stronger and in at least bearable pain soon. At that time I will be filing complaints and making a police report too.
My Fam. Doc wants me to get my symps under control first.
Thanks to all and I will keep you posted. Sincerly NiCee
Hi Quix
That's another good idea - to start a thread re physician/practitioner abuse.
You kindly asked ^^^ about how I am feeling. Thank you for caring. 'Down' would sort of describe it - and that's entirely due to the same sort of treatment as Nicee has had. I'm amazed that so many US people have responded so angrily and so supportively to Nicee. Of course it's infuriating and definitely needs to be stopped, no one should have to go through that.
But it's really rather the norm to be treated at least offhandedly here.
I could write stuff to make hair curl. In fact, I have - I've written it in complaints to the NHS...they ignore everything.
The thing is in the UK you just don;t have a choice. You get the doc the GP sends you to and you just have to put up with whatever they dole out. If you complain it actually makes your subsequent treatment worse. (The UK Patients' Association did a survey and report on this awful state of affairs last year - they found that this experience is the norm).
So I rather think a new thread would be flooded with heinous NHS tales!! But hey! let'd go for it...;-)
Sammy
That's another good idea - to start a thread re physician/practitioner abuse.
You kindly asked ^^^ about how I am feeling. Thank you for caring. 'Down' would sort of describe it - and that's entirely due to the same sort of treatment as Nicee has had. I'm amazed that so many US people have responded so angrily and so supportively to Nicee. Of course it's infuriating and definitely needs to be stopped, no one should have to go through that.
But it's really rather the norm to be treated at least offhandedly here.
I could write stuff to make hair curl. In fact, I have - I've written it in complaints to the NHS...they ignore everything.
The thing is in the UK you just don;t have a choice. You get the doc the GP sends you to and you just have to put up with whatever they dole out. If you complain it actually makes your subsequent treatment worse. (The UK Patients' Association did a survey and report on this awful state of affairs last year - they found that this experience is the norm).
So I rather think a new thread would be flooded with heinous NHS tales!! But hey! let'd go for it...;-)
Sammy
Poor you...That was appalling behaviour. I am so sorry to read about it. I hope you've recovered somewhat. Are you going to make complaint?
Sammyx
Sammyx
I would very much like to see the continuation of this thread in a new post. NiCee would you mind if I copied and posted your description of your treatment in a new thread where we can talk about what we, as citizens and consumers, can do when we are treated unprofessionally, cruelly, or criminally?
That way this thread can continue to be about DUMB and STUPID.
Quix
That way this thread can continue to be about DUMB and STUPID.
Quix
I am so sorry that this happened to you. It makes me mad beyond words, at least beyond words that wouldn't be censored out! There are some freaking weird a$$ doctors out there. Neurologists can be at the top of that list because there seems to be a tendency to become egomaniacs. The good ones are good, the others are bottom feeders. A long time ago I worked as an assistant for a neurologist for a VERY short time. He was a flat out weirdo and freak. He was eventually ran out of our little town. I am sorry that you came across this bast#@d.
There is an element of abandonment by a doctor here too, is there not? He left you in a potentially dangerous situation by putting your walker out of your reach. He inflicted emotional abuse, you were physically exhausted and left you BY YOURSELF in a bad way, both emotionally and physically.
Strongly consider filing a police report, please. The district attorney may take exception to the criminal behavior of this doc. Any other person on the street would not be allowed to wrestle away your walker and humiliate you in such a manner. Just because he does this behind closed doors and is paid for for it, does not give him license to act in such a manner.
Too bad I live across country. I'd give this "man" the verbal beat-down of his life. Let the police and medical board do this for you.
Take really good care of yourself. Sending support and hugs your way.
There is an element of abandonment by a doctor here too, is there not? He left you in a potentially dangerous situation by putting your walker out of your reach. He inflicted emotional abuse, you were physically exhausted and left you BY YOURSELF in a bad way, both emotionally and physically.
Strongly consider filing a police report, please. The district attorney may take exception to the criminal behavior of this doc. Any other person on the street would not be allowed to wrestle away your walker and humiliate you in such a manner. Just because he does this behind closed doors and is paid for for it, does not give him license to act in such a manner.
Too bad I live across country. I'd give this "man" the verbal beat-down of his life. Let the police and medical board do this for you.
Take really good care of yourself. Sending support and hugs your way.
I am beyond appalled by this. Wordy me cannot come up with a way to express my reaction.
Nicee, I hope you will follow Ren and Quix's advice and take action. This man is a sadist, to say the least.
Please do keep us informed, and if possible in a new thread, just about you and this terrible man.
ess
Nicee, I hope you will follow Ren and Quix's advice and take action. This man is a sadist, to say the least.
Please do keep us informed, and if possible in a new thread, just about you and this terrible man.
ess
Hi,
I am sorry you have had to endure such terrible treatment from your "doctor". Quix pointed me towards your post as my job description until last week was nurse paralegal.
I did a cursory glance at S.C. laws and found the following:
SECTION 16-3-1700. Definitions.
As used in this article:
(A) "Harassment in the first degree" means a pattern of intentional, substantial, and unreasonable intrusion into the private life of a targeted person that serves no legitimate purpose and causes the person and would cause a reasonable person in his position to suffer mental or emotional distress. Harassment in the first degree may include, but is not limited to:
(1) following the targeted person as he moves from location to location;
(2) visual or physical contact that is initiated, maintained, or repeated after a person has been provided oral or written notice that the contact is unwanted or after the victim has filed an incident report with a law enforcement agency;
(3) surveillance of or the maintenance of a presence near the targeted person's:
(a) residence;
(b) place of work;
(c) school; or
(d) another place regularly occupied or visited by the targeted person; and
(4) vandalism and property damage.
(B) "Harassment in the second degree" means a pattern of intentional, substantial, and unreasonable intrusion into the private life of a targeted person that serves no legitimate purpose and causes the person and would cause a reasonable person in his position to suffer mental or emotional distress. Harassment in the second degree may include, but is not limited to, verbal, written, or electronic contact that is initiated, maintained, or repeated.
Harassment certainly fits the described scenario.
Also, a note regarding battery:
The broad definition of assault is:
"Battery is a form of trespass to the person and as such no actual damage (eg. injury) needs to be proved. Only proof of contact (with the appropriate level of intention or negligence) needs to be made. If there is an attempted battery, but no actual contact, that may constitute a tort of assault.
In the United States, the common law requires the contact for battery be "harmful or offensive". The offensiveness is measured against a reasonable person standard. Looking at a contact objectively, as a reasonable person would see it, would this contact be offensive? Thus, a hypersensitive person would fail on a battery action if jostled by fellow passengers on a subway, as this contact is expected in normal society and a reasonable person would not find it offensive. Harmful is defined by any physical damage to the body.
Battery need not require body-to-body contact. Any volitional movement, such as throwing an object toward another, can constitute battery. Touching an object "intimately connected" to a person (such as an object he or she is holding) can also be battery.[1] Furthermore, a contact may constitute a battery even if there is a delay between the defendant's act and the contact to the plaintiff's injury. For example, where a person who digs a pit with the intent that another will fall into it later, or where a person who mixes something offensive in food that he knows another will eat, has committed a battery against that other when the other does in fact fall into the pit or eats the offensive matter."
In my opinion, both battery and assualt occurred , at least per GA law, because he touched her and her walker without express permission from her. Battery is the unspoken intent to create harm...that is he asked her walk without her walker. Assault occurred when he physically touched her walker which seems to be an extension of her body..again without her permission.
At the very least , you should report him to the Board of Medical Examiners . Your in depth description of what occurred should instigate and investigation into his practices and would not cost you any money. Filing actual criminal charges, also seems to be an appropriate action. With a complaint to the Board of Medical Examiners , it would start an investigation and hopefully curtail his practice of abusive medicine.
My best advice is document EVERYTHING and all the trauma and stress he caused you , not to mention the abusive mannerisms while you were in his office.
Let me know if I can help. Stay tough, you CAN do this!
Ren
I am sorry you have had to endure such terrible treatment from your "doctor". Quix pointed me towards your post as my job description until last week was nurse paralegal.
I did a cursory glance at S.C. laws and found the following:
SECTION 16-3-1700. Definitions.
As used in this article:
(A) "Harassment in the first degree" means a pattern of intentional, substantial, and unreasonable intrusion into the private life of a targeted person that serves no legitimate purpose and causes the person and would cause a reasonable person in his position to suffer mental or emotional distress. Harassment in the first degree may include, but is not limited to:
(1) following the targeted person as he moves from location to location;
(2) visual or physical contact that is initiated, maintained, or repeated after a person has been provided oral or written notice that the contact is unwanted or after the victim has filed an incident report with a law enforcement agency;
(3) surveillance of or the maintenance of a presence near the targeted person's:
(a) residence;
(b) place of work;
(c) school; or
(d) another place regularly occupied or visited by the targeted person; and
(4) vandalism and property damage.
(B) "Harassment in the second degree" means a pattern of intentional, substantial, and unreasonable intrusion into the private life of a targeted person that serves no legitimate purpose and causes the person and would cause a reasonable person in his position to suffer mental or emotional distress. Harassment in the second degree may include, but is not limited to, verbal, written, or electronic contact that is initiated, maintained, or repeated.
Harassment certainly fits the described scenario.
Also, a note regarding battery:
The broad definition of assault is:
"Battery is a form of trespass to the person and as such no actual damage (eg. injury) needs to be proved. Only proof of contact (with the appropriate level of intention or negligence) needs to be made. If there is an attempted battery, but no actual contact, that may constitute a tort of assault.
In the United States, the common law requires the contact for battery be "harmful or offensive". The offensiveness is measured against a reasonable person standard. Looking at a contact objectively, as a reasonable person would see it, would this contact be offensive? Thus, a hypersensitive person would fail on a battery action if jostled by fellow passengers on a subway, as this contact is expected in normal society and a reasonable person would not find it offensive. Harmful is defined by any physical damage to the body.
Battery need not require body-to-body contact. Any volitional movement, such as throwing an object toward another, can constitute battery. Touching an object "intimately connected" to a person (such as an object he or she is holding) can also be battery.[1] Furthermore, a contact may constitute a battery even if there is a delay between the defendant's act and the contact to the plaintiff's injury. For example, where a person who digs a pit with the intent that another will fall into it later, or where a person who mixes something offensive in food that he knows another will eat, has committed a battery against that other when the other does in fact fall into the pit or eats the offensive matter."
In my opinion, both battery and assualt occurred , at least per GA law, because he touched her and her walker without express permission from her. Battery is the unspoken intent to create harm...that is he asked her walk without her walker. Assault occurred when he physically touched her walker which seems to be an extension of her body..again without her permission.
At the very least , you should report him to the Board of Medical Examiners . Your in depth description of what occurred should instigate and investigation into his practices and would not cost you any money. Filing actual criminal charges, also seems to be an appropriate action. With a complaint to the Board of Medical Examiners , it would start an investigation and hopefully curtail his practice of abusive medicine.
My best advice is document EVERYTHING and all the trauma and stress he caused you , not to mention the abusive mannerisms while you were in his office.
Let me know if I can help. Stay tough, you CAN do this!
Ren
Good Evening folks,
I heard from my personal doc today and I will be seeing her tomorrow
afternoon. She is very upset over this just as we all are.
I'm still weak and weepy right now, but after my doc and I get my body
calmed back down, I will be doing just as you suggested!
I didn't know if patients had any laws that protected us or not.
You are right, and I have access to good lawyers that
I will utilize to go after the LOONY TOON !
I'm paying dearly for all the shock and stress he caused me.
My MS symps are much worse now, and they were bad before.
I fear the stress may have made me have another bleed on my brain too, I can
feel the fluids swish and shift around like they usually do when I have a
bleed. the bad head aches are back and out of this world! Have to fight not
to puke. I am having ms hugs so bad ! All over! Head, mid rif/pelvic/ and all around my body.
They are also huging my left thigh too.. I'm on fire w knives and heat.
I have had to stay out in the unheated rec room where it's not as warm
since my emotions ran away like they did. Seems that helps a little right now.
Seems so crazy to those around me because I have always been so cold
blooded! I have only been able to sleep a total of 6 hours since Thursday
night. After I see my doc tomorrow, I will leave a post to update you. and let
you know what DR west had to say.
Then hope to get some beauty sleep so I still look 28 again,
instead of 47!!! LOL
I'm looking forward to going to see Doc West tomorrow.
She is a great Doctor and I admire her. i wish I could just see her for all of
this junk!
Thanks again! you are all special to me! NiCee
I heard from my personal doc today and I will be seeing her tomorrow
afternoon. She is very upset over this just as we all are.
I'm still weak and weepy right now, but after my doc and I get my body
calmed back down, I will be doing just as you suggested!
I didn't know if patients had any laws that protected us or not.
You are right, and I have access to good lawyers that
I will utilize to go after the LOONY TOON !
I'm paying dearly for all the shock and stress he caused me.
My MS symps are much worse now, and they were bad before.
I fear the stress may have made me have another bleed on my brain too, I can
feel the fluids swish and shift around like they usually do when I have a
bleed. the bad head aches are back and out of this world! Have to fight not
to puke. I am having ms hugs so bad ! All over! Head, mid rif/pelvic/ and all around my body.
They are also huging my left thigh too.. I'm on fire w knives and heat.
I have had to stay out in the unheated rec room where it's not as warm
since my emotions ran away like they did. Seems that helps a little right now.
Seems so crazy to those around me because I have always been so cold
blooded! I have only been able to sleep a total of 6 hours since Thursday
night. After I see my doc tomorrow, I will leave a post to update you. and let
you know what DR west had to say.
Then hope to get some beauty sleep so I still look 28 again,
instead of 47!!! LOL
I'm looking forward to going to see Doc West tomorrow.
She is a great Doctor and I admire her. i wish I could just see her for all of
this junk!
Thanks again! you are all special to me! NiCee
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