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female "full release" by male massage therapist
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female "full release" by male massage therapist

why is it cheating to get a sexually arousing massage? the two people don't have a relationship, are not involved, and may never see each other again. if a woman gets the "full release" treatment, is that cheating? men would say no, women would say yes. women goto these parlors in new york city and other cities and have men provide them "happy endings." i would argue there's nothing wrong with this and that a husband wouldn't mind if his wife went to one of these establishments either.
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Avatar_f_tn
I quote Teko in that "Cheating is any action, with any person, place or thing that causes ill feelings and mistrust between two people who have formed a commitment to each other, period."

I would never get a full release treatment at a massage parlor or where ever they offer those things. My fiance would agree with me, that it is absolutely cheating and he would not want me going to such a place, as neither would I want him going to a place like that. If he wants stress relief, he can play a sport or some other kind of exercise, or come to me for a massage. He does not need to go outside of our relationship to get a 'happy ending'. That sort of place is inappropriate for a person in a relationship to be, as there is no reason for them to be there.  
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1611284_tn?1301984263
I concur! And I love that quote by Teko.

Cheating is usually cheating, if you need to ask if it's cheating.
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1310468_tn?1274867525
I agree with Fission - if you have to ask, you probably know it's wrong.

How would you feel if your partner was visiting a prostitute? That's also simple sexual release provided by a person with no emotional attachment...

If a woman's partner is OK with this kind of massage (and by that I mean if it has been openly discussed and the partner actively SAYS "it is OK", not just that the partner has never been heard to express anti-massage sentiments) then that's fine - what a couple allows within the parameters of their own relationship is no one else's business. But it's unfair not to discuss it with a partner BEFORE doing it - you don't get to decide what your partner is OK with.
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184674_tn?1360864093
I agree with Soggymoggy--what a couple allows within the confines of their own relationship after communicating with each other their relationship boundaries, then that's their business.
But for me personally, any type of "massage" like you describe would be cheating AND prostitution, since someone is getting paid to provide a sexual service. I don't want anyone but my husband giving me that type of personal, intimate pleasure, especially someone with whom I "don't have a relationship, [am] not involved, and may never see each other again." Eew!
Plus, I have no desire to pay for such a "service" that I could get for free, anytime, from my husband. And I would expect the same from him if the situation was reversed. I don't want some random "massage therapist" (or whatever they want to call themselves to avoid being called a prostitute) getting paid to touch my husband in a way that is meant for only me to do, because we both committed ourselves in that way only to each other in our marriage. Neither one of us would be okay with this and would absolutely consider it cheating.
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Avatar_n_tn
all good replies, however sexual intercourse, two people completely naked and engaging in penetration is far more intimate and a worse case of "cheating" than a woman being stimulated to orgasm by the hand of a man. it's definitely differing degrees and my point is that the men who go to these "massage parlors" for such pleasure are not penetrating a woman, thus it's not quite as bad--needless to say, in a perfect world, we would all follow the words of Teko (with whom i am not familiar), but that quote pre-supposes that one can fully understand what each person in the relationship is feeling/thinking, which is impossible. to never "cause ill feelings or misstrust between two people" is really humanly impossible: the intentions of either party are never fully known, really. trust is given it's not demanded or needing explanation. the "female vs. male release" consideration is really of interest only because men (i would argue), in general, won't mind unless their spouse is actually involving themselves with the sexual organs of the "provider." this is not the case with women, who don't even want a hand (let alone a vagina) to come in contact with their spouses private parts. just food for thought. i agree that cheating is cheating, but there is room for compromise, and it's ineresting that men seemingly "compromise" in this area whereas women flat out don't want any part of a woman to touch their man's privates. i certainly would feel far more betrayed by my wife if she allowed someone to have sexual intercourse with her than by her simply superficially being brought to orgasm by a massage therapist. and if she's happier as a result, all the better.
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973741_tn?1342346373
Under your theory Lonnie, seeing a prostitute would not be cheating.  I don't buy it for a second.  If my man needs release, he knows he can see me for that.  Or he can do it himself.  If you need someone else involved, you are cheating.  And I don't really think men are much different than women in this regard.  There is no male/female fight here.  Those that take their commitment seriously would see this as a violation of trust whether they are male or female.  

And if I needed a "stranger" to get to help me out . . . I'd describe myself as a person with an issue or two.  I'm in a relationship.  I don't need "outside" help.

But if someone is into open relationships and feel it is no big deal if their partner seeks sexual attention elsewhere, that is their business.  
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973741_tn?1342346373
Oh, and by the way----------- cheating also means breaking the rules.  To many, engaging in any sexual act no matter where it falls on the scale of intimacy is breaking the rules of commitment in a relationship. I'd say MOST feel that way and I do as well.  

If someone establishes different rules within their relationship--------  and it is mutually agreed upon, this is what would define cheating in that particular relationship.  But a person who just happens to "let" this happen and tries to say it is not cheating . . . but their spouse has no idea about it . . . well, that is probably cheating.  No justification as to it being less intimate than a long term romance, it not being intercourse, etc. makes it different than cheating.  If you have to hide it---------- um, cheating has occurred.  
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Avatar_f_tn


If You rob a bank of 5$ instead of 500$ or 5,000$ - have You robbed the bank?

have You broken the law??

are there consequences??  

If one wants a "superficial" orgasm one can go solo - what could be more "superficial" than that??  Once You've involved another person it is no longer "superficial"
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Avatar_m_tn
From a jerk who knows all about cheating.... even talking inappropriately with the other person hundreds of miles away is cheating.  You wouldn't have a problem walking into a bar and seeing your significant other being manually brought to orgasm by another woman?  Wow..... that is an open relationship.
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184674_tn?1360864093
Yeah, my husband would never in a million years be totally fine and carefree with the idea of another man touching me in any sexual way, whether it involved hands, genetalia, or toys or whatever.
And yes, I don't want any part of another woman touching my husband's privates, ever.

It all really comes down to what each individual couple has communicated to each other of the boundaries of their personal relationship. There is no standard "one size fits all"--it should be okay if it's this way vs. that way, because the situation is acted out in a certain fashion. Some couples may be okay with that, others (probably most) will not.
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285927_tn?1380802356
How is it not cheating? If there is nothing sacred between two people in a committed relationship, then why bother committing in the first place?  I stand by my original remarks.

Cheating is any action, with any person, place or thing that causes ill feelings and mistrust between two people who have formed a commitment to each other, period."

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1310633_tn?1289313024
So if a man watches porn, masturbates to orgasm, and his wife doesn't like the fact that he does this... is it considered cheating?

Not saying I agree or disagree, but it's an interesting topic.
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Avatar_m_tn
I'd say watching porn and masturbating is not cheating if.... if your significant other does not object.  If the wife says she's against it and he does it it will obviously cause some waves but with all things considered.... the husband was by himself.
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1310633_tn?1289313024
Ergo, having an orgasm without the specific "consent"  (or 'okay') from your partner, is considered cheating, if I'm reading the above comments correctly. If my partner doesn't like me 'bringing myself off' or watching porn, for the same effect, then in essence, I'm a cheater.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.
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1310633_tn?1289313024
By the same rational, if I fantasize about another woman while having intercourse with my wife, am I cheating?

If that's the case, then I'm skrewed, because Uma Thurman, Jennifer Anniston & I have had many a three-some in my head, while I've been in bed with my wife. And I dare say my wife has done the same thing with whomever is on her 'top-ten list'.
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Avatar_f_tn
You have gone from physical cheating(a person having their hands on your spouse's genitals) to emotional cheating(fantasizing about someone else) which are 2 different things. Both can be harmful to a relationship and the boundaries of a couple's relationship should be discussed. Some may be ok with fantasizing about others, watching porn, etc, while others may not be. That is up to the couple. The strict definition of cheating, is not black and white for everyone as it would depend on what they are comfortable with.  
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13167_tn?1327197724
This keeps coming up on this board,  periodically.  I can't tell if it's the same exact poster keeping asking this question.

I've never,  ever in my life heard of a woman going into a massage parlor and asking to be sexually touched.  Same reason there aren't any "women's clubs" that offer nude male dancing.  (There are men's clubs that occasionally have "lady's night" where women go with other women for a bachellorette party or some other lark,  once or twice in a lifetime.  There aren't businesses that cater full time to women watching nude men.  Fact is,  women don't want to do this).  Women also don't want to go in and pay for a shoulder and neck and feet massage and have some guy grope them.

And I fully believe that if there WAS such a woman who wanted that,  I'm sure her husband wouldn't think that was just fine.
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973741_tn?1342346373
El, I often agree with you but I think you are making a big stretch to go from watching porn and masterbating (masturbating) to going to an establishment and having the woman cause you to "release" as the poster says.  Not sure how you are trying to make those into similar things-----------  apples and oranges and very different.  

If your wife went for a massage and the man included sexual gratification into the massage, you would think this was the same as your wife masterbating (masturbating) alone?  The man "touching" her????  The man possibly being aroused himself doing it?  

I don't get your correlation between these two things at all.  Another person touching my husband crosses a boundary.  But that is how we work our marriage.  If I was alright with it---------- then he wouldn't have to lie about it and it wouldn't be cheating.  But since I'm not alright with it, then it breaks the rules of our marriage.  He wouldn't be alright with it either.  It would definately be cheating in our marriage with the way we have things set up.

Rockrose, you are right.  We've had this post before.  And yeah, I want a massage therapist to work on my neck and my feet as I've got my husband for the parts in the middle.  Not interested in some stranger going "there".  
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1310633_tn?1289313024
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with what the OP said, or with the whole cheating/not-cheating thing... I just think it's an interesting discussion point.

Personally, I think that if you know in your heart, and "feel" that what you're doing is wrong (whether you're simply talking to a member of the opposite sex, or otherwise, or actually "doing the deed") then it's cheating.

You know in your heart when you're doing something wrong, so I think cheating comes in many forms. Personally I don't think that masturbating to porn is cheating, and neither does my wife. Neither of us thinks that fantasizing about others while we're together is cheating, so it's all good. Talking to members of the opposite sex is okay, as long as the conversations are within the bounds of we both know is right & wrong.

You know if you're cheating or not, plain & simple.
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Avatar_m_tn
On a side note completely concerning Uma Thurman.  When I was in the bar business... Uma Thurman and Greta Gaines (Olympic skier and wild woman) were hanging out in the club for a week or so.  A couple of nights after I met them both... the wife and I go to dinner in one of the towns nicest places.  As we walk in Uma Thurman and Grata Gaines both said "HI Brice"...... my wife looks at them then looked at me with a puzzled look.  She then said..."That's Uma Thurman!"  I then replied "Yup and her friend Greta".  

Apparently my wife was unfamiliar with "my kind of celebrity" and said.... "How does Uma Thurman and Greta Gaines know you?".  I just chuckled and said "This is me Baby".  LOL

P.S.  Uma shook my hand when I introduced myself.... didn't wash the thing for 2 weeks!
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1310633_tn?1289313024
The question is... did Uma wash HER hand immediately after shaking YOUR hand!
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Avatar_n_tn
what i love about this subject is that it points out the flaws in relationships, and the insecurities based upon purely "physical," "superficial," conditions--keep in mind, this is all touching one or another "physically," nothing "metaphysical" about it, thus all "lower pleasures," it's the higher pleasures we, as a species, are so famous for. yet humans get so bent out of shape about these lower pleasure issues (especially women, it appears, who are, arguably more "emotive," or "non-physical" than men--which poses a paradox. suddenly women are more motivated by physical occurances than men)...this behavior is all a byproduct of our need to procreate and yet we ascribe so much more, more internal "emotional" feelings, and can feel abandoned by--or cheated upon by--others when we violate an assumption that those procreative urges ought to be preserved for one person or another. very interesting. the common denominator is pleasure/nature/instinct, not distrust or abuse of a contract between two people. it's really never intended to hurt anyone yet the other one feels somehow wronged--I can't quite put a finger on why this is....seemingly, the only real instance of where the line justifiably should be drawn is re: true sexual intercourse, unless (as others have posited) predetermined openness has been agreed to between both parties. the rest is relative and should be considered with conditions unlike strict adherence to a rule, as in actual intercourse. just my thoughts. ;)
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82861_tn?1333457511
ROFL!  Women are more "non-physical" than men?  Son, you have a lot to learn...
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973741_tn?1342346373
Here is my question Lonnie------------  do you work in a massage therapy office?  Or do you frequent one?  As in-------- do you give it or take it?  

I'm sorry if my husband had physical contact with another woman, it would be cheating in our marriage.  Intercourse is not the only thing that qualifies.  Regardless if it is a male or female.  My husband feels the same.
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973741_tn?1342346373
El, I have to say that I agree with you.  I do not see looking at porn, masturbation or fanticizing about another person as cheating.  I also don't think it is cheating to receive sexual contact from a massage therapist if it is something that you and your significant other have agreed is alright to do.  What I was disagreeing with you on is that your examples were the same as what the OP suggested.  
Most relationships traditionally would find that to be crossing the line.  Male and female alike.  Making it a guy/girl thing in my mind does not really belong in the discussion either.  
One can give this an okay in their relationship and then it isn't cheating.  But I think many a partner would have a hard time selling the idea that they did not cheat if this happened when explaining it to their signficant other.  
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Avatar_f_tn
I think lonnie enjoys slinging 75cent words and listening to the rest of us opine

"cheat" is a simple 5 letter word - we all learn what it means in kindergarten - most of us don't need these philosophical and colorful words to figure out what is cheating.  Most Husbands and Wives see eye to eye on what is cheating and anything outside their "agreement" is cheating.  Simple

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13167_tn?1327197724
lonnie,  I can't understand much of what you were trying to say in your last post.

Bottom line is,  I think you're the same person who continues to come here and post the exact same thing.

Most of us don't agree with you.

It's your life.  You can choose to do whatever you want.

But I don't understand why you keep coming here and asking for opinions when you never get what you want to hear.

Do what you want.  But don't think you can convince anyone that what you're proposing is moral.
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285927_tn?1380802356
So, I am curious to know what you consider to be a committment between two people. Is it not when two people have chosen each other for their lifetime partner. And what is the role of that lifetime partner. And if getting off is simply getting off and not offending anyone in the process then what makes us different than animals? And what makes having a partner make sense? In other words, why would we committ to anyone if we did not think it wrong to simply go thru life seeking sexual pleasure anywhere we can find it? Believers in the word of god believe that if you look upon a woman with lust, then you have already committed adultry in your heart........ To one that thinks there is no god and this is as good as it gets and when yer dead, yer dead and no consequences of your behavior, then anything goes and who cares what anyone else thinks or gets hurt as a result. Not too long ago, the biblical view was the norm. Geesh! In the last 20-30 years, things sure have changed.

What these questions do to me is make me wonder what separates us from animals? Or are we really any different at all? Points to ponder....
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1035252_tn?1371343440
Sorry to come late to this, I've been super busy. I just had to laugh that the OP keeps saying how "superficial" and "surface" the topic is....and how clearly, it must be a gender divide causing a rift on the issue.

Well, let's get real. If you want to talk about something intimate in a relationship being superficial..let's go out on a limb. EVERYTHING is superficial. We're all just a compilation of atoms.and everything we see and feel are a result of wavelengths and "sensations" that are really just "superficial" reactions to everything else. I mean aren't we, technically, just atomical facades? A bunch of little dots put together to make a superficial creature with superficial feelings and superficial interactions?

yea...so...unless you want to completely demean our existence, you have to realize that superficial or not, we attribute our own importance to certain acts and feelings as human beings. and the fact that "TECHNICALLY" if you break it down, it's all about procreation and it's "simply" the "superficial" act of touch bringing release....doesn't make it any less wrong, because we have attributed the concept of wrongness to it. And we've done it over generations. Cheating has been acceptable on and off during periods of time in the past, but the reason monogamy WORKS is because it provides A) the safest method of sexual interaction between two people B) security and C) genetic stability. Therefore, society has obliged by creating a stigma around cheating...,.and as a result, we all have built feelings and emotions around the stigma that tell us "wow, I was just cheated on and it HURTS because it's WRONG...."(and if you can't accept the emotional reaction you can dig even deeper and see that beyond that, A)my partner has increased my risk of HIV and STDs, B)the person I trust has betrayed my trust and now I feel less secure and C) on a basic level, your children now have genetic incompatibilities outside of your own family, which on a microscopic level isn't bad (i.e. half brother and half sister aren't LIKELY to ever have to mate, but in an evolutionary sense...this limits the base for breeding) ...so regardless of that it should or should not be an issue....it IS an issue.

I don't make a lot of sense right now, I've just taken a huge dose of Dayquil and I've slept about 4 hours in the last 3 days, but I'm TRYING to say that..superficial or not, any act that causes a person in a relationship to break their partner's trust by engaging in any sort of outside relationship (intimate, emotional, physical (however brief)), is cheating and no matter how superficial it "technically" is...it's still wrong, and it still hurts. so yes. "happy endings" are cheating. yes, it's wrong. Some people are OK with that, and that's absolutely fine doesn't bother me one bit...but I am not, and when I asked my husband neither was he. And he wasn't just lying either, trust me my husband will stick his foot in his mouth without thinking about it lol but this time he gave a genuine shudder of disgust and revulsion.
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Avatar_f_tn
This is all entirely TOO philosophical - NOT in reality what we are REALLY dealing with when we're dealing with one another!!  This has become quite silly, actually.  Don't know about the rest of You but I'm done with this topic.
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Avatar_f_tn
Just noticed but you have this posted alot. In many different forums and such.... are you looking for a double standard or are you role reversing cause your old lady is mad at you for getting a full release at a massage you got or..... Really what is the need for asking strangers online the definition of cheating? That should already be established between you and your partner.
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