Longer Term management Valium or Klonopin info?

[JaxRiley]

I'm trying to educate myself here so I don't look like an idiot or a drug seeker when I go make an appointment with a psychiatrist. Reading through some of these posts, I feel comfortable and confident with Ryan's excellent info but am I understanding right that tolerance to the ansiolytic effects of Valium and Klonopin are not going to happen? I have been on Xanax for 2 years now prn. Started out .5 MG and am now taking 1 MG. While it still works for me I have decided to stop taking it because it generally now only lasts 3 to 4 hours before the anxiety rebounds. Because of the nature of Xanax-I do NOT multi-dose on it. If I take it in the afternoon and its worn off by 6 PM, that's it for the day-I won't take it again-even if I'm feeling worse than ever. It's a good med but at this point in time, it's not the right medication for me anymore.

I have 2 friends on Klonopin-one is hooked and said his doc told him to get off,he'll need in patient treatment at a hospital-he's also on all kinds of other stuff for other issues but takes 3 Klonopin daily-not sure what strength-he said that's his all time low-he wouldn't reply when I asked how many he was taking. Another friend, a psychiatrist in training, told me it's a good side drug but I should be on an anti-depressant-this is why I fear going to a psychiatrist. Both have said it stops working after 6 to 8 weeks "Then what are you going to do?"

I would like to talk with a psychiatrist and feel informed in what I'm saying. I fear walking in and talking and having this come up and him writing me off as a drug seeker and telling me no.  I am not going to do the SSRI dance as I am not depressed but by the same token, I'm not looking for a habit....I only want this anxiety to end. I cannot live like this anymore and it's not fair for those around me to have to tip-toe for fear of me exploding into a hell-beast because my nerves are on fire and I can't cope when the cat farts (extreme example here, just saying...) If Valium allows me to feel normal (or Klonopin) THAT is what I'm looking for but am I facing something that will stop working in X time?

I'm reading a lot of what Ryan says and I trust in his sound knowledge but it contradicts what others have told me-a lot of people who would rather me exercise and meditate which I ALREADY DO. There's too much anti-drug going on and too many just don't understand how debilitating anxiety can be or they'd not make well meaning but stupid statements such as "Just relax, go exercise." That's what I'm TRYING to do...I only want the anxiety to stop. I'm not looking to kill my personality, I'm not looking to escape, I'm not looking to hide. I used to be a fun loving guy...I want to be that man again-I'm tired of being so prickly people are afraid of me.

The way I'm seeing this, my choices are Valium or Klonopin. I'm not doing the SSRI's, I'm not depressed and more often than not I've read Beauspar is an expensive placebo and has no real effect. Am I wrong in looking to Valium or Klonopin for long term management? I really fear health consequences from this if I don't get relief soon. I'm to the point now where heart attack is a regularly occurring fear and at 41...that's something I'm not ready to face.

[Santiago01754]

Your OP could have been written by me. Please don't pass on the SSRIs or SNRIs just because you are not depressed. Largely they help with GAD. I'm in the same boat. Starting Cymbalta and using Valium. I just started the Cymbalta after tapering off other meds. Meanwhile I'm struggling to figure out why so many people get Klonopin and not Valium. I hope the Cymbalta effects start soon because my anxiety level is through the roof. Good luck Jax.

[Brenndy]

Great thread.  
Ryan:  You are the man!
Cori:  Best to you and your gal; love you both.
Everyone else who participated, I wish you all the very best in your search for serenity.

[JaxRiley]

Hi Ryan,

I can't thank you enough for this reply. I understand a lot more clearly now and will try to find a psychiatrist who is willing to listen and hope he does good by me. The Xanax, though, was never a daily thing with me. GP said take it as needed. Because it's so short acting and because I'd read how severe withdrawal can be from it, I never took it daily. But when I do, the rebound anxiety is horrible. When he said if I needed it more than twice a week, we may need to look into another class of drug. He's very resistant to Valium for some reason...least with me he is. And I never dared bring up Klonopin for fear of him marking me a drug seeker in my file. Now I know from your post Klonopin is not something that I need.

Thanks again.

[remar]

Ryan, this is lboogies mom, Remar. I'm so glad you posted this. We have been trying to find answers for my daughter switching from xanax to valium. Now we finally have a schedule for her since our Dr. does'nt seem to be working very well with us. He wants her to completely taper off the xanax then come to see him and he will consider valium. She has G.A.D and panic attacks sometimes. We've done alot of research and think valium would be the best choice for her. Thank you so much for posting this for all of here on this thread. Take care. Remar

[JaxRiley]

I don't know what to say. You've been through the ringer, haven't you? All I can say is good luck with the taper off Xanax and getting on Valium. Librium I didn't like-it made the room spin like I was drunk. NOT pleasant. You deserve peace and happiness. I think getting off alcohol is a big help-it was for me anyway. Now if you could just find some level peace in your life :)

Here's wishing you all the best in 2009!

[JaxRiley]

I'm scared of the SSRI's. I've watched what Prozac has done to my cousin and a co-worker who had started on that reminded me of why I hated being around people doing coke-he was just yammering and yammering. Maybe I'm pig headed...my grandmother was taking Valium (VERY IRREGULARLY) and my aunt had so much of it, she was like a pharmacy. I know benzosare  addictive but I've heard just as much bad about SSRI's. I guess it's a matter of finding what works for you...I don't know.

For me, Xanax isn't evil, it has its place and time tho I know its got a bad rep. It worked well for me in the beginning but since July when I had to move back in with my dad, it's not been the right med. I went from the frying pan into the fire and like you know, it wears off too fast. When it wears off is the worst when you can begin to feel your nerves firing and tingling-that's when I try to get involved in something that will keep my mind occupied. I FORCED myself not to take it today-I wanted to so bad but I did not reach for them. I'm mentally exhausted-today was brutal & I feel like I've run a marathon.

I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle so I'm trying to get myself to focus away from the  meds and try to deal with this on my own. It's not fair and doesn't feel good but I can't keep driving myself crazy crying for something I'm not going to get-I am not in control of my meds, unfortunately.  My doc is going to get a good reaming when I see him in April tho-just like he did to me in Sept. He forgets, I'm partially funding his lifestyle. He needs me more than I need him.

[lboogie7729]

Hi JaxRiley, I'm Remar's daughter, the one who is interested in getting off of Xanax and getting on Valium with the long term goal being to get off of everything. I've had access to Xanax since I was about 15 and I had taken it on and off as needed because I've always had generalized anxiety disorder with severe clinical depression. I admit back in the day I would eat whatever pills I could get my hands on at times because I was so screwed up emotionally and mentally. But I got on Wellbutrin about 3 1/2 years ago and had to get a script for Xanax because I'm high strung (like my dad) to begin with and although the Wellbutrin helped the depression it aggravated the anxiety. My mom had been on Xanax for so long that it seemed like a natural choice and it didn't seem to be an issue until the last 2 years. I quit the Wellbutrin about 6 months ago because I was such a drunk and I knew how hard the Wellbutrin was on my liver. My doctor knew I had a drinking problem but he was unaware of the extent. I had been getting it directly from the pharmaceutical company to bypass my insurance company but that began to get complicated (getting the run around with paperwork) so I quit cold turkey but stayed with the Xanax, and drinking of course! It sounds ridiculous but anyone who has had a problem with drinking knows you don't do rational things when you're drowning in booze!
About 6 weeks after quitting Wellbutrin a combination of personal issues on top of my always present depression and anxiety led up to me getting drunk, flipping out and ODing on a combo of all the drugs I could find in the house (lots of Soma, a few Xanax, a few Vicodin, a few Oxy's which I had never done before and one or two other things) Needless to say the combo of alcohol and over 50 pills led up to me being brought back to life in the E.R., then to I.C.U. and 3 days in a general psych unit where they proceeded to give me Librium, and Wellbutrin! I told them I quit the Wellbutrin and I wasn't going to get back on it, my hair was already standing on end after the first dose and I was adamant about not going back through that process. They never gave me my Xanax in the 5 days I was there, but gave me a couple of little doses of Librium because my blood pressure was through the roof and I was barely sleeping. I had drank almost everyday for close to 19 years and smoked cigarettes and pot daily for about the same amount of time so I was coming off all of that only 6 weeks after coming off Wellbutrin and they were in no hurry to give me my Xanax while I was there.
Apparently my psychiatrist has no knowledge of this episode despite the hospitals claim that they contacted him. I have no plans to tell him although he knows I quit drinking and smoking cigarettes. He doesn't realize that I was a total pothead and gave that up too (as did my boyfriend after 15 solid years of chiefing it up) or that I was drunk most of my life so he can't grasp what I'm going through 2 months into sobriety. It's my fault for not being honest the entire time but when you're a drunk and an addict honesty with doctors isn't an easy thing. Plus like my mom said he's known me forever and it's almost like he doesn't see me as a regular patient. I was on speed for about 6 years when I was in my teens and early 20's and quit cold turkey so he acts like I'm super human and capable of anything through sheer willpower alone. He wanted me to taper off 2-3mg a day of Xanax (my dose for the last 3 1/2 years) to nothing in 11 weeks. That's what I got out of him after explaining that I've read about the length of time needed to taper to avoid severe withdrawals and the info that I've read on Valium, which he kind of argued with me about. I was saying I wanted more like 3-6 months to taper off the Xanax and then go onto Valium until I'm settled into my counseling sessions again (CBT therapy which starts again next week and has worked great in the past through tremendous effort and time) and get used to being sober (meetings and whatnot, struggling with that triggering anxiety!).
Like my mom said we are just going to tag team him and get him to work with us if it means tackling him and taking the 'sript pad! Oh the joys of docs and meds. I really wish you the best with your situation and my mom and I are usually on throughout the day if you need another anxious ear to hear you out! ;-)

[JJ11]

Started with 3 partial Klonopin (dissolving tablets, not capsules) daily along with antidepressant; down to one a day (for 1.5 years now) but the antidepr. DOES help the anxiety too and I am feeling more even than in a long, long time, with some lapses occasionally!  My psych, who was a pharmacologist, told me she thought xanax was "an evil drug" and never gave it out ... it made me feel horrible!  wore off too fast and left me with rebound anxiety!
For what it's worth, I'm not afraid of the Klonopin (dissolvables) for now!  I don't exceed the dose!  And is it addictive?  I don't know!  But maybe my BP meds are too, and I take them because I need them to live a healthier life.  Same with Klonopin and antidepressants, and usually I am anti-meds, so you can trust I fought the meds for years before accepting them!  Good luck...

[remar]

Thank you so much for getting back to me. My daughter has dealt with antidepressants and antianxiety meds for many yeas as have I. She takes Xanax but wants something that lasts longer. We're leaning towards Klonipin or Vaium. Actually, I think Valium would be the better choice for her. I plan to go to our Dr. with her, he's been our Dr. for 18 years and knows us very well. We're not drug addicts, we have an anxiety disorder and we're very informed. I was surprised that he told her that Valium does'nt last any longer than Xanax! I know that's not true, I've done the research. Even though she's 31 years old, he treats her like a child. Maybe because he he met her when she was 13, I don't know. She completely understands benzos, the good and the bad, and so do I. You sound very well informed and I really hope things work out for you. Remar

[JaxRiley]

I think part of the problem is being well informed, we threaten them and they get stuffy. I thought I could talk to my doctor and I can-just so long as my views agree with his and I don't contradict him. He made that QUITE clear with the HIDA scan. He made it clear he wanted me on Xanax and don't ask for anything else.  My mom & grandfather's doc was the family doc for years but his arrogance is off putting and he made you feel he was doing you a favour even letting you breathe the same air he was. That was a doctor you did NOT question-period. That's not someone I want 'caring' for me.

I think another part is too many people are to quick to sue when it comes to getting hooked on these drugs. Stevie Nicks is one that I won't even go into but that whack job tries to come across as a victim with her Klonopin addiction. She's spent her life in rock & roll, don't tell me she had no idea what Klonopin was and that popping somewhere in the neighbourhood of 16-20 K's a day, every day for 8 years was rational.  She blames her psychiatrist for keeping her hooked. What did he do, hold a gun to hear head and force her to eat what she was taking?  I don't see her blaming her coke dealer for her "coke and brandy days" that she so lovingly looks back on. She doesn't blame anybody for the hole she could stick a quarter though in her nose but her psychiatrist and Klonopin are evil for robbing 8 years of her life and nobody should be taking benzos according to her-they should be banned. Grow up and own your stuff Stevie! Not all of us are looking for a legal habit. THAT doesn't help us either.

I understand these drugs are a controlled substance. But if we have a legitimate problem and it's documented, like you-I fail to see where the problem is. A psychiatrist (in training) friend of mine said the problem is too many GP's prescribe them without really knowing what they're prescribing and what for. That they fall into a comfort zone with one benzo or other and stick with it weather it's right for a particular patient or not. Even she has said Valium or Klonopin would be better.

I am fully aware of the dark side of these pills, I've done a lot of research and still learn more all the time but at this point in time, I personally feel the pills are worth the risk vs. having a heart attack or stroke. I think all of us taking these meds should be as informed as we can be about them.  I am afraid of physical dependency but not as afraid as suffering a heart attack. They aren't a panacea but they are a help if used responsibly.

I wish your daughter luck in finding relief and hope her doctor is more open than mine is...he sounds like he is. Search  some of the posts here by Ryan, they're very educational on the differences of these meds.

[MrGreen]

Valium would be next on my list as the hardest hitting Benzo. It has a longer lasting effect than xanax does. Can be used for longer. But it kicks in faster and I find you feel a come down effect from it once it wears off. Which can be after about 6 hours. A daily dosage should be three times a day for valium. Klonopin still wins out in my book. You only need two a day. Lasts longer and i have never had any bad side effects from it.

[remar]

This is a very interesting thread. I'm doing research right now for my daughter. She told her Dr. that she wanted to quit xanax and try valium because it's longer acting.He started her on a short tapering program to get off the xanax and told her to come back and they would talk about valuim. She is so upset and afraid. She does'nt want to take an antidepressant, she's been there done that. Patients are very informed these days and I don't understand why Drs. won't listen. I would like to know about valium compared to xanax too. Remar

[nuamor]

Wow. Yeah i'm starting to feel that these docs are just after our money. They are living their lifestyle because of us. I'm having a hard time now with my meds (real hard time) and he tells me that he cannot see me for another two weeks. Alot can happen in two weeks. Sometimes i think this doc just prescribes to cover his a**.

[JaxRiley]

No, I don't mind. As a teenager,I was diagnosed with a benign liver condition called Gilbert's Syndrome. I was told it was nothing to worry about but I had to be sure to tell someone if I was having surgery-it would show as hepatitis even tho I do not have hep. (I've been tested for all 3 varieties and all are neg).

Doc sent me for an ultrasound to be sure my liver was ok. It is...but it showed I had gall stones-wonderful-one more thing to stress about. As the anxiety increased, my bilirubin has increased which is normal for Gilbert's Syndrome.

In Spetember last year he basically forced me to have a HIDA scan as he thought I had a blockage from a stone-my bilirubin was elevated. I have NO SYMPTOMS from the gall stones-When I told him I didn't want the test,that it was anxiety pushing up the bilirubin I saw the man I thought I could talk to had a god complex. I said I didn't want the test. What I was told was I had no option...if I wanted a second opinion,he would send me to a surgeon for one and would respect what that surgeon said but I was having the test weather I liked it or not.

Gee-that's a no brainer. Surgeons cut...that's what they do. A more sensible approach would have been to send me to a GI Specialist but I kept my mouth shut because I feared pi$$ing him off and having him tell me no more Xanax to be a ****.

I didn't appreciate that whole business. First of all he ripped me a new one when I originally cancelled the scan. He forgot He WORKS FOR ME! I TOLD him it was anxiety-the test showed nothing abnormal. I won't tell you the stress I was under for the 3 weeks that whole **** went on. And I didn't appreciate it one bit.

SO now...I no longer trust him. Nevermind EVERY damn time I go to him he calls me back for repeat blood work. EVERY time. Either it hemolysed or something was wonky. I got news.I go see him again in April and what he gets is ALL HE'S GETTING! I don't care what he does with the blood this time, he's not getting a repeat draw. That shows me how lax his office is with blood and I find that repuslive...I COULD call Blue Cross and say I think he's double dipping for extra money coz that's what it feels like.

[nuamor]

If you don't mind me asking what happened with your doc back in september? I'm having my own issues with my doc. Maybe we can help each other out.

[JaxRiley]

Thanks for the compliment...it's my pen name. :D
You asked what I've tried doing to calm myself down. I'm afraid when it strikes there's very little that I can do besides take a Xanax which Im not doing anymore. I have a baby grand piano sitting in the living room rotting, I have 3 B C Rich guitars rotting, I used to write...I used to be very creative btu sine moving back home that's all getting pissed away because my dad pretty much spends the day pacing around the house looking out the windows. When I'm trying to concentrate on something and hear his footfalls and the up and down the stairs all day...I'm a basket case by the end of the day. That is ALL he does EVERY day, then he says I sound like a drug addict because I walk around here yelling I need Valium. Gee I wonder why.

I can't paint anymore,I can't write anymore, I can't really do a whole lot because I have ZERO alone time. I exercise an hour a day,I try to meditate when I feel it coming on.  The city has basically forced me out of my own home back in with my dad. I'm 40 years old living like I did when I was 14. Everybody is trying to be accommodating  and basically what theyre' doing is enabling me not to have a life."NO I'll go get you this or that. Don't get yourself worked up." Great-I don't have enough to deal with the anxiety,help me become agoraphobic too while you're at it.

I look back at the rock & roll years of my life and the fun I had with my buds and think of anybody told me this was what was in store for me,I'd have told them they were crazy. I used to be really fun and easy going and now I can see how bitter, jaded and very prickly I've become.

Keeping my mind busy helped when I was suffering panic attacks in the mid 90's.I refused treatment my family was begging me into because I refused to be medicated for it.I needed to learn my triggers which I did and now, I suffer panic attacks far less frequently and far less severe. But the anxiety is increased ten fold since being forced out of my house.

I do stained glass...which I've given up because since moving back home,when the anxiety hits,I'd just taken sheets of glass and hurled them at the floor to smash. Art glass is expensive.
One of the biggest triggers is at dinner time when my dad will stand there, hands folded at his was it like an altar boy and stares at me while make a salad.Then I can feel the blood coursing through my veins and my mind begins to race and I can't hold a thought and I'll start to shake. He wants to know what's wrong...Why do you stand there and watch me make a salad? Am I doing it right?

SO to alleviate all this and avoid taking the Xanax I pretty much stay in my room...this is not normal behaviour for a 40 year old dude. He'll ask why I stay in my room.Well-my other option in going about my business and popping Xanax all day because my damn doc won't put me on a longer acting med.

As far as Xanax goes-I won't vilify it...I think it's a good med that has its place. It is not the med I need to be taking at this time.I never had a problem with it but I never took it longer than a week. Christmas 2006/07 was so bad I basically blitzed through it in a Xanax fog-I have pretty much no memory of it at all-every day multi dosing for a week and then I backed off before I got into trouble.  I went from the frying pan into the fire. Going back to my own house is not an option, I cannot afford to move with the economy sucking so bad.

I also don't trust my doc after what he put me through in September. I can mention that in another post but this is getting to be a novella a=so I should probably quit here.

Generally Im a happy guy..but when the anxiety hits---it's bad. I'm not keen on the idea of anti-depressants. I wouldn't mind the lows being gone but I like my highs. My cousin started out on Prozac and is on Effexor or something now...she's not the same woman I remember. She's like a Stepford wife-I'm not going down that road. I've heard way too much bad about SSRI's. I like my personality, or what I remember of it-just not the anxiety.

[JaxRiley]

HI and thanks for the reply. Nice to be in a place that doesn't judge for a change.   One dude friend said the Klonopin he was on quit after 8 weeks but  his doc continued upping the dose and basically he's been feeding an addiction for the past 8 years. The soon-to-be-psychiatrist friend said it's an adjunct to SSRI's because benzos do not work long term and what is my plan when it stops working if I'm given Valium or Klonopin.

I don't know what the deal is with my doc other than when he initially worst the script for Xanax, I stated that I had taken Valium in the past and why Xanax? He didn't answer other than he said that's what he wanted me to take.

How to be succinct here? Initially I went to him after my grandfather died which was a couple years after my mom died. I lived in a heavily industrial area-surrounded b factories, listening to loading docks banging at night, trucks running all night, tht dan beeping sound of trucks in reverse is ingrained in my brains and to this day instantly makes every fibre of my body tense up.

Doc said I was still in the grieving process and Xanax should help. Which it did. I felt like I had been given a new lease on life...initially

The story deepens and due to cooked politics here, I had been in contact with the mayor for a while who initially said I was in a no-win situation and what did I want for my house being that I was on valuable city property abutting the dept. of public works. I told him let me make some calls. Long story short, he then threw that in my face a month later and said he never uttered those words. When I said I was going to the local tv stations with this to show how crooked the city was and the living conditions I was forced to live under...I woke up the next morning to find my car windows smashed...tell me that wasn't a statement.

So at the age of 40, I packed my bags, left my spousal unit there and moved back to my house with my parental unit.

My dad is 73...I cannot talk to him anymore really, 40+ years  being a functional alcoholic have let him a bit dim. I ask a question and either get a question back or some utter nonsensical reply or he looks at you with glassy eyes nodding when he doesn't understand a thing you just said.

I fly off in a rage because unless you said "Nice day,pretty blue sky" it's not worth conversing with him which makes me angry and also feeling guilty that I'm so impatient with him.

The spousal unit comes up to visit almost every night, I have a 73 year old up my *** al day....I forgot to mention, I was a tattoo artist before my mom had her stroke in 2001 and I quit to take care of her and after she died,I was lucky I didn't have to go back to work-having made some smart investments.

When I told my doc I wasn't liking the Xanax was wearing off so fast, he said ideally I wouldn't need it at all but we could look at another class of drugs which I took to mean anti-depressants and I'm not going there. When I again asked if maybe Valium might be worth a  try he gave me an odd look and shook his head. I don't need him to label me a drug seeker coz I'll be screwed then. Yes, and ideally I'd be married to Doro Pesch and be able to have a normal conversation with my dad.

Meantime I hold on waiting for roller coaster season to hit-that will help SOMEWHAT.

Sorry-I didn't mean to be long winded, just kind of hard to show where Im coming from and why I am like I am.

[MrGreen]

Klonopin is the longest acting Benzo you will find. Benzo meaning tablets you do become addicted to. You depend on them. Even if they stop working. Your body still needs them. Like any form of drug. The 6 to 8 weeks was a load of BS. Maybe that was how long it would take a SSRI to kick in. Were Ryan is no doctor he has knowledge about medication. Though on this forum, with the owners, that can be a bad thing. As they like their own doctors to get paid on a section of the forum for giving out the same information Ryan would give out for free. As for Xanax? I was on that for years. Needed hospital treatment to get off it. Probably the worse of all Benzos. Valium is fast acting. But you feel the come down effect from it. It doesn't last as long as a Klonopin. But there are some SSRIs that help with anxiety too. A doctor might use them along with a benzo for various reasons. The best sollution was mentioned above. Finding the root cause of the anxiety. Facing up to it. Hard as it can be. It does work. But support is always here when needed/

[jakegorzen]

I completely understand what you mean Im laughing my @ss off at the cat fart, hahaha, too good, sounds just like me.
Your friends said Klonopin looses effectiveness after 6 to 8 weeks? or did they mean the SSRIs?
I think both Klonopin and Valium would be the better choice for long term. I find it a little concerning that your Physc put you on Xanax for 2 years.
Those people are supposed to know the rules, and come to grips that sometimes a person needs a steady dose with ALLOT LESS CHANCE of tollerance and bad withdraws.
Seems to me he wouldve rather gave you the Klonopin and Valium in the first place, because those are hardly abused compared to Xanax.
Just be strait up with him, and tell him that you dont wanna be in the Xanax hell no more, your not asking for more "drugs" but a better med that is proven to be allot safer and better for Long term.
Do you think maybe you could be going through Withdraws on the Xanax?
As long as your not a drug abuser, which you dont sound like you are, then I think everything will be alright.
Good luck