Aa
5 year old Greater Swiss Mountain Dog
Hi,
My dog has been recently diagnosed with stage 1 Kidney disease. Her SDMA results were 17 in August and Nov 5th was at 19.
History:
My boyfriend and I had brought our dog to the vet in August because we had moved into a new place and our dog had been vomiting and we found small traces of blood in the vomit as well as in her poop/urine so we did all sorts of tests and the vet from August switched her to a high protein diet and gave her antibiotics. After he got the results from the bloodwork back a day or 2 later, he mentioned he SUSPECTED kidney disease but was not really giving us a definite answer or an answer regarding the blood in the vomit and feces. He switched us to a prescription Kidney diet (Royal Canin renal support S) which was a dry food. After tasting the high protein diet (which she loved) she refused to touch the dry kidney diet. It was a huge concern for us because she was not eating so he asked us to try the wet food (Royal Canin Renal support E) which she finally ate. He didn't mention going back in for blood work, checkups or anything.
November rolls around and our dog had ingested some marijuana she picked up from outside (which we had not known about so we bawled our eyes out thinking her organs were failing because she looked like she had trouble walking and was leaking) so we took her to the local (different) vet closer to where we live now and she did some blood work and physical exams on her and gave us the results 1.5 hours later. She had told us her behaviour was from substance abuse and noticed the CREA levels were a bit high so sent in the blood to the lab to test for Kidney disease with the SDMA result of 19.
This vet says our dog has stage 1 kidney Disease and gave us the IRIS website. However, although our dog's SDMA result is 19, her CREA is 1.59 mg/dL; the IRIS site says stage 1: SDMA above 14 and CREA <1.4
Stage 2 is SDMA above 25 with CREA between 1.4 and 2.0
I don't know if this means she's progressing to stage 2... Is SDMA from 17 to 19 after 3 months considered fast progression?
This vet has been super informative and let us take home the lab report and explained each of the blood results to us so we understood what it meant. She wants to do blood work on our dog in 3 months again to see how she's doing.
She's currently still on Renal support E (wet food) and we've inquired about supplements so she recommended Aventi Kidney Support (about 5 large scoops a day because she is a large dog). I've been doing some research and also looking into Omega 3 oils and Rehmannia 8 but will consult the vet first. So far most of the feedback I've read from people giving their dogs Rehmannia 8 has all been positive, but I will dig deeper and see what I can find.
She is still so young, most other cases I've read up on, the dogs have been over 10 years old. I wonder if it's possible that by doing all the right things and giving her the right treatment and proper diet, she could stay at stage 1 and live out a good full life.
I will also add that she is also on Propalin (0.5 mg twice daily) from since she was spayed years ago.
Any feedback would be appreciated! Sorry for the long post, wanted to be as detailed as possible.
My dog has been recently diagnosed with stage 1 Kidney disease. Her SDMA results were 17 in August and Nov 5th was at 19.
History:
My boyfriend and I had brought our dog to the vet in August because we had moved into a new place and our dog had been vomiting and we found small traces of blood in the vomit as well as in her poop/urine so we did all sorts of tests and the vet from August switched her to a high protein diet and gave her antibiotics. After he got the results from the bloodwork back a day or 2 later, he mentioned he SUSPECTED kidney disease but was not really giving us a definite answer or an answer regarding the blood in the vomit and feces. He switched us to a prescription Kidney diet (Royal Canin renal support S) which was a dry food. After tasting the high protein diet (which she loved) she refused to touch the dry kidney diet. It was a huge concern for us because she was not eating so he asked us to try the wet food (Royal Canin Renal support E) which she finally ate. He didn't mention going back in for blood work, checkups or anything.
November rolls around and our dog had ingested some marijuana she picked up from outside (which we had not known about so we bawled our eyes out thinking her organs were failing because she looked like she had trouble walking and was leaking) so we took her to the local (different) vet closer to where we live now and she did some blood work and physical exams on her and gave us the results 1.5 hours later. She had told us her behaviour was from substance abuse and noticed the CREA levels were a bit high so sent in the blood to the lab to test for Kidney disease with the SDMA result of 19.
This vet says our dog has stage 1 kidney Disease and gave us the IRIS website. However, although our dog's SDMA result is 19, her CREA is 1.59 mg/dL; the IRIS site says stage 1: SDMA above 14 and CREA <1.4
Stage 2 is SDMA above 25 with CREA between 1.4 and 2.0
I don't know if this means she's progressing to stage 2... Is SDMA from 17 to 19 after 3 months considered fast progression?
This vet has been super informative and let us take home the lab report and explained each of the blood results to us so we understood what it meant. She wants to do blood work on our dog in 3 months again to see how she's doing.
She's currently still on Renal support E (wet food) and we've inquired about supplements so she recommended Aventi Kidney Support (about 5 large scoops a day because she is a large dog). I've been doing some research and also looking into Omega 3 oils and Rehmannia 8 but will consult the vet first. So far most of the feedback I've read from people giving their dogs Rehmannia 8 has all been positive, but I will dig deeper and see what I can find.
She is still so young, most other cases I've read up on, the dogs have been over 10 years old. I wonder if it's possible that by doing all the right things and giving her the right treatment and proper diet, she could stay at stage 1 and live out a good full life.
I will also add that she is also on Propalin (0.5 mg twice daily) from since she was spayed years ago.
Any feedback would be appreciated! Sorry for the long post, wanted to be as detailed as possible.
Update from her most recent blood test:
CREA dropped to 1.48 mg/dL from 1.59 in Nov.
PHOS also dropped to 1.39 mmol/L from 1.43
and SDMA is down to 17 from 19 in Nov.
Since her blood test in November I have had her on minerals, Organic Probiotics ,and Multivitamins from Dr. Peter Dobias http://peterdobias.com/products/nice-package
The vet is happy with the bloodwork and says we could add some omega 3 to her diet also.
I also took her off Propalin for her urinary incontinence, however her recent urine test came back with a bit of RBC and high WBC count so vet thinks it may either be UTI or Bladder Infection. The vet says bladder infection is more dangerous for Kidney Disease so she had to do a sterile urine sample directly from the bladder to grow bacteria to see what antibiotics would work best.
I've asked the vet about cranberry supplements and she said it could be used to prevent E-coli from attaching to the bladder but would only work as a preventative means. Any suggestions or comments on this?
CREA dropped to 1.48 mg/dL from 1.59 in Nov.
PHOS also dropped to 1.39 mmol/L from 1.43
and SDMA is down to 17 from 19 in Nov.
Since her blood test in November I have had her on minerals, Organic Probiotics ,and Multivitamins from Dr. Peter Dobias http://peterdobias.com/products/nice-package
The vet is happy with the bloodwork and says we could add some omega 3 to her diet also.
I also took her off Propalin for her urinary incontinence, however her recent urine test came back with a bit of RBC and high WBC count so vet thinks it may either be UTI or Bladder Infection. The vet says bladder infection is more dangerous for Kidney Disease so she had to do a sterile urine sample directly from the bladder to grow bacteria to see what antibiotics would work best.
I've asked the vet about cranberry supplements and she said it could be used to prevent E-coli from attaching to the bladder but would only work as a preventative means. Any suggestions or comments on this?
Hi. Sorry I missed the age of your dog in the title ... it was the end of a long evening answering over 50 messages on different dog websites and my brain was going into shut-down.
I don't think you need to consider fluid therapy. Fluid therapy is key to getting creatinine down when it is extremely high, and your dog isn't in that situation (yet at least). It may be something to consider for the future though if things start to deteriorate.
I can't actually recommend a home BP monitor as I have never used one. I do know taking a dog's BP is much more difficult than human BP testing though, so I would ask your vet if they could perhaps advise the best equipment and show you how to do it. Some dogs do stress out at the vets and that's why the advice to vets is to take at least 5 readings over a period of time and then take the average of those readings. It's equally important for vets to spend some time engaging with the dog, so as to help calm them and make them less anxious.
Alkaline water? That's a new one on me. I suspect it may not be good idea (depending on exactly what you mean by alkaline water). There are companies now selling alkaline water, stating that it offers a "cure" for high acidity diets (dog food can be high in acids) and as we all know, too much acid can lead to all kinds of problems). However, this is marketing mumbojumbo.
Most dog food you buy - good and bad quality - includes varying amounts of magnesium. Check what you have been feeding and see if it includes magnesium in the ingredients.
Why is magnesium important ... simply put, it counteracts the natural high acidity in the food. Pet manufacturers have been including this for many years. The magnesium is already balancing the acidity, so by adding alkaline water you are pushing the alkaline balance in the opposite direction - and this can lead to kidney stones, bladder stones, painful urination and it can damage the kidneys too.
So, in short, I would stop using alkaline water straight away and switch to filtered water. The filtered water has (importantly) less sodium and chemicals but retains an appropriate source of essential minerals.
Hope this helps.
Tony
I don't think you need to consider fluid therapy. Fluid therapy is key to getting creatinine down when it is extremely high, and your dog isn't in that situation (yet at least). It may be something to consider for the future though if things start to deteriorate.
I can't actually recommend a home BP monitor as I have never used one. I do know taking a dog's BP is much more difficult than human BP testing though, so I would ask your vet if they could perhaps advise the best equipment and show you how to do it. Some dogs do stress out at the vets and that's why the advice to vets is to take at least 5 readings over a period of time and then take the average of those readings. It's equally important for vets to spend some time engaging with the dog, so as to help calm them and make them less anxious.
Alkaline water? That's a new one on me. I suspect it may not be good idea (depending on exactly what you mean by alkaline water). There are companies now selling alkaline water, stating that it offers a "cure" for high acidity diets (dog food can be high in acids) and as we all know, too much acid can lead to all kinds of problems). However, this is marketing mumbojumbo.
Most dog food you buy - good and bad quality - includes varying amounts of magnesium. Check what you have been feeding and see if it includes magnesium in the ingredients.
Why is magnesium important ... simply put, it counteracts the natural high acidity in the food. Pet manufacturers have been including this for many years. The magnesium is already balancing the acidity, so by adding alkaline water you are pushing the alkaline balance in the opposite direction - and this can lead to kidney stones, bladder stones, painful urination and it can damage the kidneys too.
So, in short, I would stop using alkaline water straight away and switch to filtered water. The filtered water has (importantly) less sodium and chemicals but retains an appropriate source of essential minerals.
Hope this helps.
Tony
2 Comments
Hi Tony,
Here is some info regarding alkaline water and testing done on dogs with renal failure:
I am currently looking into an alternative diet as I noticed the Royal Canin one was not rated on the dog food advisor website.
Thank you for your help!
Christine
Here is some info regarding alkaline water and testing done on dogs with renal failure:
I am currently looking into an alternative diet as I noticed the Royal Canin one was not rated on the dog food advisor website.
Thank you for your help!
Christine
Hi. Thank you for the link.
One must be very careful of claims made by unsubstantiated research reports, funded and promoted by a company selling the same product. While what they say is accurate, they don't tell you the risk factors and dangers (which I have mentioned above).
Kidney disease is a complex condition, involving lots of changes in bodily functions, hormone levels, blood constituents, diet, neurology, etc. The "research" paper has concentrated on one aspect of the symptoms, without considering any others that might be (likely to be) affected by drinking alkaline water.
I can only reiterate what I suggested beforehand, and change to filtered water.
Tony
One must be very careful of claims made by unsubstantiated research reports, funded and promoted by a company selling the same product. While what they say is accurate, they don't tell you the risk factors and dangers (which I have mentioned above).
Kidney disease is a complex condition, involving lots of changes in bodily functions, hormone levels, blood constituents, diet, neurology, etc. The "research" paper has concentrated on one aspect of the symptoms, without considering any others that might be (likely to be) affected by drinking alkaline water.
I can only reiterate what I suggested beforehand, and change to filtered water.
Tony
Hi and welcome to the group.
You don't mention how old your dog is, other than she is young? A young dog can get kidney disease for a variety of reasons. The real question is ... is this acute renal disease or chronic renal disease? Your vet may not be able to answer this, as time is likely to tell you if it is progressive (in which case it will be chronic). Let's hope there has been little damage to the kidneys and, if so, your dog can recover enough to live a long and happy life, maybe with some kidney specific management.
If it proves to be chronic kidney disease, then deterioration will continue and (sadly) ultimately will lead to complete failure. Even if that's the case, as this is very early in the disease, there is a huge amount you can do to help your best friend live with a good quality of life and for potentially a number of years.
I am slightly surprised about your vet first advising a high protein diet - and then a kd diet (which actually has low protein). These are examples of vets that are not up-to-date or very experienced in canine kidney disease. I am even more saddened that any vet would suggest a dry dog food for a dog with kidney disease, as that is the very worst diet any dog could have - but even more so one with kidney disease.
The important point right now is to feed a slightly restricted protein diet, but whatever protein is given it must be high quality (this means human grade meat and poultry). The amount of protein should be around 18% of the meal given. Canned kd foods are far better than ordinary dog food, as they usually contain high quality protein in the right ratio - but much more importantly, they are low in phosphorus. Phosphorus is a very influential ingredient in kidney disease and restricting it is very important.
I would actually tend to opt for a high quality canned dog food right now (cheap brands tend to have very low quality protein). Check on Dog Food Advisor and go for a 5 star rated brand.
I also think 3 months is too long to wait for blood testing. I would try and get the blood tested again in 2 months time at the latest. It would also be very useful to have a specific gravity urine test as well, which should include a check for any infections (culture and sensitivity test is the thing to ask for). Finally, ask the vet to undertake a blood pressure check, as many kd dogs have high blood pressure, and that can progress kidney disease much faster if it is left untreated.
Propalin is not a good medication for kidney disease. Are you sure your dog still needs this? Talk to your vet about a more kidney friendly medication, if any is actually needed at all.
Okay. I want you to have a read of an article of mine, which is designed for newly diagnosed dogs. You can find it at:
http://www.infobarrel.com/My_10-Point_Plan_for_Dogs_with_Kidney_Failure
Get back if you have more questions after reading the article.
Cheers
Tony
You don't mention how old your dog is, other than she is young? A young dog can get kidney disease for a variety of reasons. The real question is ... is this acute renal disease or chronic renal disease? Your vet may not be able to answer this, as time is likely to tell you if it is progressive (in which case it will be chronic). Let's hope there has been little damage to the kidneys and, if so, your dog can recover enough to live a long and happy life, maybe with some kidney specific management.
If it proves to be chronic kidney disease, then deterioration will continue and (sadly) ultimately will lead to complete failure. Even if that's the case, as this is very early in the disease, there is a huge amount you can do to help your best friend live with a good quality of life and for potentially a number of years.
I am slightly surprised about your vet first advising a high protein diet - and then a kd diet (which actually has low protein). These are examples of vets that are not up-to-date or very experienced in canine kidney disease. I am even more saddened that any vet would suggest a dry dog food for a dog with kidney disease, as that is the very worst diet any dog could have - but even more so one with kidney disease.
The important point right now is to feed a slightly restricted protein diet, but whatever protein is given it must be high quality (this means human grade meat and poultry). The amount of protein should be around 18% of the meal given. Canned kd foods are far better than ordinary dog food, as they usually contain high quality protein in the right ratio - but much more importantly, they are low in phosphorus. Phosphorus is a very influential ingredient in kidney disease and restricting it is very important.
I would actually tend to opt for a high quality canned dog food right now (cheap brands tend to have very low quality protein). Check on Dog Food Advisor and go for a 5 star rated brand.
I also think 3 months is too long to wait for blood testing. I would try and get the blood tested again in 2 months time at the latest. It would also be very useful to have a specific gravity urine test as well, which should include a check for any infections (culture and sensitivity test is the thing to ask for). Finally, ask the vet to undertake a blood pressure check, as many kd dogs have high blood pressure, and that can progress kidney disease much faster if it is left untreated.
Propalin is not a good medication for kidney disease. Are you sure your dog still needs this? Talk to your vet about a more kidney friendly medication, if any is actually needed at all.
Okay. I want you to have a read of an article of mine, which is designed for newly diagnosed dogs. You can find it at:
http://www.infobarrel.com/My_10-Point_Plan_for_Dogs_with_Kidney_Failure
Get back if you have more questions after reading the article.
Cheers
Tony
2 Comments
Thank you so much for your reply and suggestions! She is 5 years old, sorry I put it on the title and forgot to mention in the post. Huge shock regarding the Propalin, the vet said it should be okay. After you mentioned it, I looked it up right away... It is so frustrating...
As for the Fluid therapy, at which stage do you suggest her starting it or is it something we could start now?
We had measured her blood pressure but it most likely was not accurate because she was stressing out during the reading and was kicking her legs.
I was looking into a blood pressure monitor we can use in-home. Any suggestions? That way we can monitor her blood pressure daily and get her comfortable with it and let the doctor know what it is because she stresses out at the vet.
As for the Fluid therapy, at which stage do you suggest her starting it or is it something we could start now?
We had measured her blood pressure but it most likely was not accurate because she was stressing out during the reading and was kicking her legs.
I was looking into a blood pressure monitor we can use in-home. Any suggestions? That way we can monitor her blood pressure daily and get her comfortable with it and let the doctor know what it is because she stresses out at the vet.
Also, she only drinks alkaline water, we hope that this will help her body and kidney in not having to filter out too much toxins.
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