Aa
Thanks for the invite!
Hi all,
Mandy, my 12-year-old JRT is in stage 3 kidney failure. In researching CKD, I stumbled on a thread with some excellent info (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Dogs/4th-stage-renal-failure-in-my-dog/show/425814) in which Tony encouraged people to join the group. So here I am!
I wish it were a more happy reason for joining, but I'm grateful for finding this group, and Tony, I want to tell you how much I appreciate your exceptionally helpful article (http://www.infobarrel.com/How_Diet_Affects_Dogs_with_Chronic_Kidney_Disease). I've done a bunch of reading on the internet, and consulted with several vets, and your article in some of the best information I've found. Thank you!
~Kay
Mandy, my 12-year-old JRT is in stage 3 kidney failure. In researching CKD, I stumbled on a thread with some excellent info (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Dogs/4th-stage-renal-failure-in-my-dog/show/425814) in which Tony encouraged people to join the group. So here I am!
I wish it were a more happy reason for joining, but I'm grateful for finding this group, and Tony, I want to tell you how much I appreciate your exceptionally helpful article (http://www.infobarrel.com/How_Diet_Affects_Dogs_with_Chronic_Kidney_Disease). I've done a bunch of reading on the internet, and consulted with several vets, and your article in some of the best information I've found. Thank you!
~Kay
Hi. While she's eating okay, don't bother about anti-nausea tabs - it can be considered again if she stops eating for more than a day. The tinned green tripe is okay, but all natural is so much better. The problem with tinned dog food (incl the one you are buying) is it often has things like salt and phosphorus in the ingredients, which you want to try and avoid. Many times, these are preservatives (sometimes natural preservatives), to stop the canned food going rancid over time and before it is opened. The guar gum in the tinned variety is relatively harmless in a healthy dog, but it can give rise to stomach issues (acidity and nausea) in CKD dogs, so not a big issue, but one to be aware of. I reside in the UK, so the all natural frozen green trip is relatively easy to get here. You may have to ask around at good pet stores or search online maybe to see what's available. Just for reference, the one I use (actually I use all their varieties incl chicken, white fish, etc.) is Natures:Menu. This is just meat, poultry or fish - with no added ingredients at all. I think it would be useful to you to start a new thread ... calling it something like "Where Can I Get All Natural Frozen Green Tripe" ... I'm sure someone will respond with a few suggestions. Tony
Tony, no, Mandy is not on any anti-nausea medicine. The only thing I'm aware of is Famotidine, but I understand that's hard on the kidneys, so I've avoided it. Is there something else that she can be given to offset the nausea? My vet has not mentioned any anti-nausea medications, so if there is something, I would like to try it.
I have to tell you, per your suggestion, tonight I added chopped, cooked cabbage to her food, and I swear, she liked the food better with the cabbage than without. I started out with chicken baby food (no sugar in there, just chicken and water). I stirred in a spoonful of cabbage, and she liked it!
When we got to the part where there was no cabbage, she didn't want the baby food. So I added more cabbage, and voila, she ate it. I wonder if she instinctively knows that the cabbage will make her feel better.
I appreciate your comments about the chicken skin and that makes total sense.
Thank you for looking up the NutriCal ingredients. It was my vet who suggested I give it to Mandy till she starts eating again. Tonight was the first time in five days that she showed any interest in eating -- and that was only because of the cabbage.
So that makes me wonder, is it okay to add cabbage to all her food?
Re. the green tripe. This is what I've been getting: http://goo.gl/V8IUKo
Do you have a link for the "frozen (and then cooked) all natural variety of green tripe?" If I can find that, I'll get it.
I have to tell you, per your suggestion, tonight I added chopped, cooked cabbage to her food, and I swear, she liked the food better with the cabbage than without. I started out with chicken baby food (no sugar in there, just chicken and water). I stirred in a spoonful of cabbage, and she liked it!
When we got to the part where there was no cabbage, she didn't want the baby food. So I added more cabbage, and voila, she ate it. I wonder if she instinctively knows that the cabbage will make her feel better.
I appreciate your comments about the chicken skin and that makes total sense.
Thank you for looking up the NutriCal ingredients. It was my vet who suggested I give it to Mandy till she starts eating again. Tonight was the first time in five days that she showed any interest in eating -- and that was only because of the cabbage.
So that makes me wonder, is it okay to add cabbage to all her food?
Re. the green tripe. This is what I've been getting: http://goo.gl/V8IUKo
Do you have a link for the "frozen (and then cooked) all natural variety of green tripe?" If I can find that, I'll get it.
You asked about Nutri-Cal ingredients. I've checked it and they are Corn syrup, soybean oil, malt syrup, cod liver oil, cane molasses, methylcellulose, water, gelatin by-products, dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), sodium benzoate (preservative), manganese sulfate, iron peptonate, thiamine HCI, niacinamide, calcium pantothenate (source of calcium and pantothenic acid), magnesium sulfate, pyridoxine HCI, vitamin A palmitate and D3 supplement, potassium iodide (source of iodine and potassium), riboflavin 5' phosphate sodium (source of vitamin B2 and phosphorus), folic acid and cyancobalamin (vitamin B12).
I am a bit concerned there is phosphorus in there - not good for CKF dogs - so maybe use this very occasionally only when Mandy isn't eating at all.
Tony
I am a bit concerned there is phosphorus in there - not good for CKF dogs - so maybe use this very occasionally only when Mandy isn't eating at all.
Tony
Hi. Without going back along the thread to read up on it, is Mandy on an anti-nausea medication? If not, now is the time to get her on one. I think she is starting to associate food with nausea - and this is a difficult physical and psychological thing to get through. I am going to look up NutriCal and will get back on that later on. My opinion is that chicken with the skin on may very well be harder to digest, but I don't think easy-to-digest is Mandy's "issue" - I think it's a toxicity issue resulting from the kidney disease. So, as chicken skin has useful fat content (whereas chicken doesn't), I would try to give her with the skin on maybe a couple of times a week.
It sounds like you are trying all kinds of foods there, and whatever works is good enough for now, though once things settle down, there will be a need to be more cautious with the ingredients. Some baby food has sweeteners, for example, and these are best avoided for dogs.
Green tripe is my favorite all-rounder for CKF dogs, so definitely keep trying it - it's low in phosphorus and high in nutrition. The frozen (and then cooked) all natural variety of green tripe is best, if you can find it at your local pet store.
Tony
It sounds like you are trying all kinds of foods there, and whatever works is good enough for now, though once things settle down, there will be a need to be more cautious with the ingredients. Some baby food has sweeteners, for example, and these are best avoided for dogs.
Green tripe is my favorite all-rounder for CKF dogs, so definitely keep trying it - it's low in phosphorus and high in nutrition. The frozen (and then cooked) all natural variety of green tripe is best, if you can find it at your local pet store.
Tony
I agree, Lynne, about the soul mates.
Thanks for your insight about trial and error to see what works.
Thanks for your insight about trial and error to see what works.
Thank you, Tony. I did not know that about broccoli. Thank you for sharing that.
For the last six+ months, 90% of Mandy's diet has been only human-grade food. I buy and roast organic chickens which up until recently she enjoyed, but five days ago she started refusing all food. So I've been giving her chicken baby food. If I sit her on my lap, and get her started, I can usually get her to eat a small jar at one sitting.
My vet said not to give Mandy chicken skin and fat because, the vet said, it's difficult to digest. What are your thoughts about that?
Mandy previously liked green tripe, but not so much in the last five days.
Two days ago I started her on NutriCal for Dogs which she really seems to enjoy. (http://www.petco.com/product/7708/Tomlyn-Nutri-Cal-for-Dogs.aspx)
I sure would like to know the magic ingredient in NutriCal that's so delicious to her.
She's not vomited in the last week (that I know of), and aside from lack of appetite, she otherwise seems fine. She loves to go for walks and she's on cloud 9 if she can ride in the car with me, so I'll often take her on short rides.
This morning I offered small quantities of six different foods -- each on a separate dish -- to see which ones she would or would not eat. She refused the following foods:
- Freshly cooked organic ground beef
- Canned green tripe
- Organic chicken with rice and chick broth
- Organic chicken by itself
- Chicken livers (cooked in chicken broth)
- Chicken liver juice & white mashed potatoes (no butter, no milk)
She would only willingly eat the chicken livers. But I fear that's too rich, so only got about a tablespoon or two of chicken livers.
I tried flavoring other foods with chicken livers, but she shows no interest.
For the last six+ months, 90% of Mandy's diet has been only human-grade food. I buy and roast organic chickens which up until recently she enjoyed, but five days ago she started refusing all food. So I've been giving her chicken baby food. If I sit her on my lap, and get her started, I can usually get her to eat a small jar at one sitting.
My vet said not to give Mandy chicken skin and fat because, the vet said, it's difficult to digest. What are your thoughts about that?
Mandy previously liked green tripe, but not so much in the last five days.
Two days ago I started her on NutriCal for Dogs which she really seems to enjoy. (http://www.petco.com/product/7708/Tomlyn-Nutri-Cal-for-Dogs.aspx)
I sure would like to know the magic ingredient in NutriCal that's so delicious to her.
She's not vomited in the last week (that I know of), and aside from lack of appetite, she otherwise seems fine. She loves to go for walks and she's on cloud 9 if she can ride in the car with me, so I'll often take her on short rides.
This morning I offered small quantities of six different foods -- each on a separate dish -- to see which ones she would or would not eat. She refused the following foods:
- Freshly cooked organic ground beef
- Canned green tripe
- Organic chicken with rice and chick broth
- Organic chicken by itself
- Chicken livers (cooked in chicken broth)
- Chicken liver juice & white mashed potatoes (no butter, no milk)
She would only willingly eat the chicken livers. But I fear that's too rich, so only got about a tablespoon or two of chicken livers.
I tried flavoring other foods with chicken livers, but she shows no interest.
Typical, typical, typical ... I missed something I meant to mention ... you CAN give small amounts of broccoli, but be aware this may not be doing her stomach much good. Be very cautious about how much you give. Broccoli has a toxic ingredient called isothiocynate, which is only found in the head of the vegetable and not in the stalks. Isothiocynate is a powerful gastrointestinal irritant that is extremely painful. So, until you get her stomach upset under control, it may be best avoided, and then reintroduced in very small quantities later on, because it does have some good nutrients too - for now, maybe just cook the stalks for her. Tony
Hi again. Sorry, it's taken me a short while to catch up on your posts ... okay, first things first, if you are feeding just chicken, that absolutely fine, except try feeding human grade chicken if you can (with the skin left on). The explanation about why this is better for CKF dogs is in my article: http://www.infobarrel.com/How_Diet_Affects_Dogs_with_Chronic_Kidney_Disease
Rice mixed with it is good - also, if this fails to impress Mandy, add a little pure salmon oil, probiotic yoghurt (plain and not sweetened) or a teaspoon of natural honey - one of these will entice her into eating and it is adding some energy-giving potential too. I think I also suggested a desert spoon of cooked chopped cabbage, which will help prevent ulcers forming and will ease the stomach. Green tripe is one of my favorites for CKF dogs. It's low in phosphorous and has some great nutrients.
It will take a week or two before benefits are seen from the fluid therapy ... but hang on in there. I'm sure the numbers will slowly improve, fingers crossed. You're doing a great job. Just keep going. Tony
Rice mixed with it is good - also, if this fails to impress Mandy, add a little pure salmon oil, probiotic yoghurt (plain and not sweetened) or a teaspoon of natural honey - one of these will entice her into eating and it is adding some energy-giving potential too. I think I also suggested a desert spoon of cooked chopped cabbage, which will help prevent ulcers forming and will ease the stomach. Green tripe is one of my favorites for CKF dogs. It's low in phosphorous and has some great nutrients.
It will take a week or two before benefits are seen from the fluid therapy ... but hang on in there. I'm sure the numbers will slowly improve, fingers crossed. You're doing a great job. Just keep going. Tony
God Bless You, Kay
When I hear stories like yours, I truly believe in destiny. Dogs make wonderful soul mates:)
Darbie was first diagnosed with CKD late Feb. 2014. Vet had her on sub Q fluid for 3x a week for 2 weeks. Started KD diet.It showed slight improvement. Then vet had me STOP sub Q fluids and just give Azodyl. over several weeks. Darbie's numbers elevated. So now Darbie was on increased sub Q fluids w/ Azodyl. She got sick of KD ( her pills were in there, ...Basically, I never felt we found a good routine until mid July. It was trial and error. Now I know, if I deviate from anything, I'll pinpoint what it is:)
Reviewing older emails shows how many of us experimented with certain foods. Some worked well...some didn't. It took awhile!
I will pick up on this later:)
Fondly,
Lynne and Darbie!
When I hear stories like yours, I truly believe in destiny. Dogs make wonderful soul mates:)
Darbie was first diagnosed with CKD late Feb. 2014. Vet had her on sub Q fluid for 3x a week for 2 weeks. Started KD diet.It showed slight improvement. Then vet had me STOP sub Q fluids and just give Azodyl. over several weeks. Darbie's numbers elevated. So now Darbie was on increased sub Q fluids w/ Azodyl. She got sick of KD ( her pills were in there, ...Basically, I never felt we found a good routine until mid July. It was trial and error. Now I know, if I deviate from anything, I'll pinpoint what it is:)
Reviewing older emails shows how many of us experimented with certain foods. Some worked well...some didn't. It took awhile!
I will pick up on this later:)
Fondly,
Lynne and Darbie!
Thank you, Lynne & Darlene.
You wrote, "Not many people would understand this."
I sure do! I was always a cat person. Ten years ago a friend who rescues JRTs complained how many owners were surrendering their JRTs, etc. I said, "I don't want a dog, but if you have one that's good with cats, I'll foster."
The next day I had Mandy. She had been horribly abused and was deathly afraid of everything and everyone. The rambunctious JRT had been beaten out of her.
Long story short, I fell madly in love with her, and she, me. We've been inseparable ever since. That was ten years ago, and I'm happy to say she's grown to trust people again, and she's had a super ten years getting treated like the princess she is. I can't bare the thought of losing her. So I'll do whatever I can to keep her happy, healthy and enjoying life to its fullest.
You wrote, "... less is more when changing diet ... This base line is important ... as the disease #'s variate over time."
Could you please elaborate? What do you mean about a base-line and changing diet less?
Thanks for your time and thoughts.
Fondly,
Kay
You wrote, "Not many people would understand this."
I sure do! I was always a cat person. Ten years ago a friend who rescues JRTs complained how many owners were surrendering their JRTs, etc. I said, "I don't want a dog, but if you have one that's good with cats, I'll foster."
The next day I had Mandy. She had been horribly abused and was deathly afraid of everything and everyone. The rambunctious JRT had been beaten out of her.
Long story short, I fell madly in love with her, and she, me. We've been inseparable ever since. That was ten years ago, and I'm happy to say she's grown to trust people again, and she's had a super ten years getting treated like the princess she is. I can't bare the thought of losing her. So I'll do whatever I can to keep her happy, healthy and enjoying life to its fullest.
You wrote, "... less is more when changing diet ... This base line is important ... as the disease #'s variate over time."
Could you please elaborate? What do you mean about a base-line and changing diet less?
Thanks for your time and thoughts.
Fondly,
Kay
Kate, You're doing just fine:)
You are in a good space. I sat back prayed to God, I could not breathe at the thought of losing Darbie. Leap of faith. Not many people would understand this...
Oftentimes, less is more when changing diet. If you explore our emails, it's amazing to see how each different parents/breeds found a comfortable baseline . This base line is important to me as the disease #'s variate over time.
Mandy is so sweet:) I giggle as she is @ 12 yrs of age! Most JRT's have WAY TOO MUCH ENERGY, great for children....Overall, Beautiful in every way:) Mandy is beautiful:)
We are here:)
Fondly
Lynne & Darlene
You are in a good space. I sat back prayed to God, I could not breathe at the thought of losing Darbie. Leap of faith. Not many people would understand this...
Oftentimes, less is more when changing diet. If you explore our emails, it's amazing to see how each different parents/breeds found a comfortable baseline . This base line is important to me as the disease #'s variate over time.
Mandy is so sweet:) I giggle as she is @ 12 yrs of age! Most JRT's have WAY TOO MUCH ENERGY, great for children....Overall, Beautiful in every way:) Mandy is beautiful:)
We are here:)
Fondly
Lynne & Darlene
Thank you, Charlene! I just posted a long response to this thread, but I'm still not sure what goes where on this forum, so I just wanted to thank you for your kind words and encouragement.
I'm so sorry for your loss of Sammie. I know it hurts like hell. My heart goes out to you in your sorrow. While I didn't know Sammie, I know this: Sammie must have been loved tremendously and had a great home with you -- Sammie was a lucky dog.
Thanks again for your support.
Fondly,
Kay
I'm so sorry for your loss of Sammie. I know it hurts like hell. My heart goes out to you in your sorrow. While I didn't know Sammie, I know this: Sammie must have been loved tremendously and had a great home with you -- Sammie was a lucky dog.
Thanks again for your support.
Fondly,
Kay
Thank you, Lynne! I just posted a long response to this thread, but I'm still not sure what goes where on this forum, so I just wanted to thank you for your kind words and encouragement. Fantastic news about Darbie's progress! God bless Tony!
Thanks again for your support.
Kay
Thanks again for your support.
Kay
Thanks, all, for the warm welcome and encouraging words. What a super group of people.
Tony, in answer to your questions:
Mandy's most recent labs (as of Sept. 5, 2014 & Sept. 17, 2014):
BUN .............. 9/5/14: 100 ... 9/17/14: 105
Creatinine ..... 9/5/14: 4.2 ... 9/17/14: 3.9
Phosphorus ... 9/5/14: 5.2 ... 9/17/14: 5.7
Calcium ..........9/5/14: 10;1 ... 9/17/14: 10.2
For the last six months Mandy's been on a home-cooked diet of organic meat (ground turkey or chicken or 80% lean ground beef) with white rice and vegetables (brocolli and/or spinach and/or green beans and/or sweet potatoes). And sometimes green tripe. Sometimes egg whites.
In the last month or so, per vet's urging, I started her on only chicken (because vet said beef is harder to digest and pro-inflammatory) with mashed white potatoes (no butter or milk) and green beans. Also she only gets distilled water. I add digestive enzymes to each meal. http://goo.gl/DcyxmA
But she doesn't like this diet as much and it's been difficult to get her to eat lately, so I've resorted to baby food (mostly chicken). (I don't know if it's the diet or if she's less eager to eat because of the disease's progression.)
She also gets
- Dr. Carol's Stomach-Eaze twice daily to coat stomach and relieve stomach upset (active ingredient: Mastic, 500 mg)
- Paaws Health & Wellness Complex (Vitamins) http://goo.gl/l4hvk2
- Dr. Carol's Kidney Essentials http://goo.gl/mSAnBL
Additionally, about a week ago, per vet's urging, I started giving her SQ fluids at home, 0.45% sodium chloride, 100 ML twice a day. The vet said we'll probably need to do this for a couple weeks to try to get her numbers down so we can then start her on calcitriol therapy.
Two days ago, Mandy threw up and for two days refused food and acted lethargic. So yesterday she got an extra 100 ML SQ fluids and Vitamin B-complex injection. Today she seems to be feeling better and little-by-little she's eating more.
There's much more that I've tried and have done over the last six to nine months, but it's too much to write at the moment.
I welcome any ideas or suggestions anyone has. Thank you!!!
Tony, in answer to your questions:
Mandy's most recent labs (as of Sept. 5, 2014 & Sept. 17, 2014):
BUN .............. 9/5/14: 100 ... 9/17/14: 105
Creatinine ..... 9/5/14: 4.2 ... 9/17/14: 3.9
Phosphorus ... 9/5/14: 5.2 ... 9/17/14: 5.7
Calcium ..........9/5/14: 10;1 ... 9/17/14: 10.2
For the last six months Mandy's been on a home-cooked diet of organic meat (ground turkey or chicken or 80% lean ground beef) with white rice and vegetables (brocolli and/or spinach and/or green beans and/or sweet potatoes). And sometimes green tripe. Sometimes egg whites.
In the last month or so, per vet's urging, I started her on only chicken (because vet said beef is harder to digest and pro-inflammatory) with mashed white potatoes (no butter or milk) and green beans. Also she only gets distilled water. I add digestive enzymes to each meal. http://goo.gl/DcyxmA
But she doesn't like this diet as much and it's been difficult to get her to eat lately, so I've resorted to baby food (mostly chicken). (I don't know if it's the diet or if she's less eager to eat because of the disease's progression.)
She also gets
- Dr. Carol's Stomach-Eaze twice daily to coat stomach and relieve stomach upset (active ingredient: Mastic, 500 mg)
- Paaws Health & Wellness Complex (Vitamins) http://goo.gl/l4hvk2
- Dr. Carol's Kidney Essentials http://goo.gl/mSAnBL
Additionally, about a week ago, per vet's urging, I started giving her SQ fluids at home, 0.45% sodium chloride, 100 ML twice a day. The vet said we'll probably need to do this for a couple weeks to try to get her numbers down so we can then start her on calcitriol therapy.
Two days ago, Mandy threw up and for two days refused food and acted lethargic. So yesterday she got an extra 100 ML SQ fluids and Vitamin B-complex injection. Today she seems to be feeling better and little-by-little she's eating more.
There's much more that I've tried and have done over the last six to nine months, but it's too much to write at the moment.
I welcome any ideas or suggestions anyone has. Thank you!!!
Hi Kay:
Welcome to our group.....so sorry you have to be here but you will find a wealth of information, new friends and a great support group. I really needed them when my Sammie passed and they were here for me.
The good news was that when I started following some of their dietary suggestions, Sammie's bloodwork got better for months!!! At stage 3 you should be able to help Mandy slow this disease down!
By the way....Mandy is ADORABLE!!!
We're here for you.
Regards,
Charlene
Welcome to our group.....so sorry you have to be here but you will find a wealth of information, new friends and a great support group. I really needed them when my Sammie passed and they were here for me.
The good news was that when I started following some of their dietary suggestions, Sammie's bloodwork got better for months!!! At stage 3 you should be able to help Mandy slow this disease down!
By the way....Mandy is ADORABLE!!!
We're here for you.
Regards,
Charlene
Hi Kay,
Mandy is precious!
When I joined Tony's forum back in June 2014. I was a wreck. He showed great kindness and support, providing me a bounty of information to fight this disease. There were ups and downs with Darbie, but I felt strongly that I needed to trust Tony. I am so grateful I did. Darbie has rebounded with renewed life! I know this CKD won't disappear, but I have such peace of mind knowing good friends are here providing emotional support always.
Please know we're here to help you!
Fondly,
Lynne & Darbie
Mandy is precious!
When I joined Tony's forum back in June 2014. I was a wreck. He showed great kindness and support, providing me a bounty of information to fight this disease. There were ups and downs with Darbie, but I felt strongly that I needed to trust Tony. I am so grateful I did. Darbie has rebounded with renewed life! I know this CKD won't disappear, but I have such peace of mind knowing good friends are here providing emotional support always.
Please know we're here to help you!
Fondly,
Lynne & Darbie
Hi Kay. I think this is the third post I've sent to you this morning ... which is good, because if one doesn't get to you, the others will. Thank you so much for your kind comments. It's very much appreciated. This User Group will be useful to you, I just know, because we are 'family' here, all with similar experiences and all with acquired knowledge that we can pool together. We are also here for emotional support, whenever it is needed.
If your best friend is in stage 3, then there's still a lot that can be done to help Mandy feel more comfortable, eat well and hopefullu slow the progression of this disease down, giving you both more time to share new experiences and adventures.
What are you feeding Mandy now (on a regular basis)? Please be fairly detailed in your response. Also, when did she last have BUN, creatinine and phosphorus levels checked - and what are the results. if you know them?
Have you made any changes to diet as a result of your research?
I'm delighted you have joined us here, despite the reasons. You are not alone going through this journey.
Tony
If your best friend is in stage 3, then there's still a lot that can be done to help Mandy feel more comfortable, eat well and hopefullu slow the progression of this disease down, giving you both more time to share new experiences and adventures.
What are you feeding Mandy now (on a regular basis)? Please be fairly detailed in your response. Also, when did she last have BUN, creatinine and phosphorus levels checked - and what are the results. if you know them?
Have you made any changes to diet as a result of your research?
I'm delighted you have joined us here, despite the reasons. You are not alone going through this journey.
Tony
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